Hi

This is a question that I have been struggling with since DDay. Throughout our R, my H has been loyal, trustworthy, honest, reliable etc and that is part of the reason I love him and put up with my current treatment. Why is it then that a 'good man' can make the decision to be unfaithful to his partner and then express feelings of guilt only in relation to his treatment of the ow?

I see this as displacement of loyalties. Rather than allowing himself to feel guilty for his treatment of me, he sees the ow as an innocent who saw he was unhappy and wanted to help him. The fact that he is now unsure what he wants, allows him to feel guilt for his treatment of the "inncocent" party, the ow.

I am sure that if it were not for this displaced guilt, my h would have decided to gice our R another try, but he cant while he still feels that he owes her something and is letting her down. I realise thatb this is part of the fog, but I am interested in others thoughts on this displacement of guilt and how it has been resolved.

LH

"I am sure if it were not for his displaced guilt, my H would have decided to give our R another try, but he can't while he still feels that he ows her something and is letting her down."

I would personally eliminate the word "guilt" from this sentence. I might substitute it with "loyalty" or"accountability".

I have a question for you ... your H keeps his clothes in your home, and lives with OW? Is that correct? Would you consider this an area where you can practice setting boundaries? Even in Plan-A ... you can express your feelings in a non-judgemental way. Are you doing H's laundry? Ironing?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Losing Hope, My WS had all the qualities that your H had before he decided to have a A in Oct/02 after he completed the EN's questionere and the LB one too. He has done the same things, I guess it's standard for that in the fog. He moved out and does not keep any contact with us, he actually said when I caught them, that she is so innocent that she should be here in our home with us so he could get to know her better and protect her from her BS, (yep, he did say this), this from a man who thought if someone was going to get involved with another it should be after they left their relationship on all levels. (Guess he does not practice what he preaches). Also, after he moved out, he tried to illicit guilt from me for the way his life is going and that he could not stay in the home and see is MOW, and still have all the comforts of home, blamed me for having to drop one of his major classes because of his stress living 2 lives!! Your WS is in that same delusional fog about the innocence of his relationship built on lies and deception that he has to make it "appear innocent and pure". How could he make it otherwise and be the man he was? It's as if he has to do this because he wants to still be in that mental state, and keep the "high" going. When he comes back to earth, he will not like where he's been and what he has become as a man, H, father?, partner, human being, period. When they are in a A these people make it sound that it was a relationship of onesness never experienced before; as if the angels made them do this of no accord of their own, that's alot to have to keep justifying when the A turns into REAL ISSUES, and Life situations. I don't know if I gave you any thoughts, but the only thing I know is that the resolution comes from the WS waking up and realizing that everything he said and did was a make-believe reality, and it has to start from them, since the BS's are living the day to day life. From my end, I know that mine is still out there somewhere and has not wanted to touch ground yet, not look at me in the eye because he might have a moment of clarity and since he was a man of principles at one time, I guess that's to much for him to take. Take care and my thoughts are with you. Please keep posting as was a good thread you started.

Hi

Pepperband
I agree that the word guilt can be replaced with loyalty or accountability, but the question is why do ws displace these feelings so that they feel them for the op and not for their spouse. In the course of their R, spouses look after each other and protect each other. When one partner is hurt, the other partner will comfort them. Why then in an A will will the ws feel that they have hurt the op and theerfore need to protect the op? Why do they not have these feelings of protection towards their spouse?

In my case, I think my H feels responsible for the feelings of the ow who is doing a marvelous guilt trip on him. When he left her for me, she came storming over and angruilly shouted "so now you have left me on my own again". Surely that is something that only I as the bs should be able to say, yet if I do say it, it will be taken as a big LB as he feels he has to protect her and that she, not me is the injured party, she is an inocent. Why should he feel this?

Things have moved on since I last updated my signature, but yes, my h does keep his clothes in our house and yes I wash but do not iron them. We agreded that we would not be silly and create duplicate work by not jointly doing the washing cleaning etc. However, I tend to do it all - aoart from the ironing. The area of boundaries is rapidly disintegrating as since last w/e, my h has started staying over more and we have strated to become intimate again. SF was a big EN I was not fulfilling and now it seems I am having an A with my H! I know at lot of people will disagree with sf while the A is going on, but I do feel that this is the only way to reach him, sine if I can fulfill his main en's what is she doing?

I attach a link to my main thread on the EN board.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=013385

Neesha
I am sorry you are in the same boat. Did the EN questionaire help identify what was wrong, or was there an EA going on before?
Do you keep in contact with you H? I do find it amazing how they justify their actions. You should not believe all that your h tells you, they are deliousional at this stage and need somebody to blame for their actions. If they cant blame the op, and they certainly cant blame themselves, who is left but you? I am getting snippits at the moment that my h is coming out of the fog, but then again, he might just be stringing me along. I dont know.
LH

<small>[ December 15, 2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Losing_hope ]</small>

A companion question is why do these men seem to see the OW as innocent and naieve and place so much blame on their wives? Do you think its all the resentment they hold towards their spouse for years of past behavoirs that they weent able to speak out about and they dont have that history with OW yet?

I sure as hell don't know the answers to these questions but my WW says exactly the same:

Doesn't want to hurt the OM or me. He hurts when she is with me and I hurt when she is with him.

I have pointed out to her on many occasions (managing not to LB in most cases) that this situation is not going to change and that in fact if she really wants to make a go of her R with the OM she shouldn't see or be spending time with me. And that he knew he was taking forward feelings for someone who was married - so it's his choice.

Given that she accepts all of the above what really floored me was when (durung a really open conversation) she said that she had hurt OM far more than me...??? I was stunned and asked her if she really felt that? She said that without a doubt she had. I of course told her that she was completely wrong but that as it wasn't a contest about who was more hurt I would agree to disagree and left it there - so as to not LB.

It amazes me that she sees OM as the innocent in all this - on the basis that I was responsible (with her) for our R disintegrating to the stage where she was open to an A. That all he (OM) did was fall in love with someone who happened to be married - and someone whose marriage he thought was already over. My WW admits that she didn't set him straight on this fact - taking blame on to herself for this. But as I always point out OM is intelligent grown up (well actually he's not grown up - he's only 23) and that he put himself into this situation by acting on his feelings for her.

It seems (and sorry for the long vent!) that WW wants to protect the OM and will defend him to the hilt - so I don't bother attacking - just ry and point out the facts.

The area of boundaries is rapidly disintegrating as since last w/e, my h has started staying over more and we have strated to become intimate again. SF was a big EN I was not fulfilling and now it seems I am having an A with my H! I know at lot of people will disagree with sf while the A is going on, but I do feel that this is the only way to reach him, sine if I can fulfill his main en's what is she doing?

well, depends. If your reasons are to manipulate him back to you then could call it an "affair", since many define an affair as self-serving. Your comment re that is what she is doing (and so you will compete) suggests you might be acting similarly. The reasons this is not a good idea are several. 1. you risk an std, that is unacceptable (or should be, if you value yourself at all). 2. By pursuing with sex, you validate the ow behaviour (in other words, rather than have fidelity boundaries, you are condoning sex without committment). 3. If you reconcille, is it because you offer better sex? meet more needs? Then you will have to wonder if he will "leave" for the next person who seems to offer more. 4. It disrespects you, and suggests you cannot set or keep boundaries, but will do anything to "keep" him (ditto the laundary stuff). Your H moved out, chose another, you should have absolutely nothing to do with him, other than demonstrating you are a strong, capable woman, and of course interactions with the kids. What you are setting up (regardless if he comes back) is a lifetime of enablment, he will do whatever he wants...why? Because he can, you'll let him, you are letting him.

What needs to happen is a recognition on his part he make an error in judgement, and demonstrate this by voluntarily following the rules of protection. Starting with NC with ow. By allowing him sexual access before taking the appropriate actions, you have most likely contributed to the likelihood he will never fully process him behaviour, and make permanent changes inside himself. It is one thing to continue SF during trouble when the spouse is at home and faithful...... but absolutely disasterous when you are just one woman in a harem, the outcome is rarely (if ever) good, no matter whether he seems to come back or not. You need to find out what he is made of NOW, you are too young to live the rest of your life with someone who is so self-asorbed that he disrespected you enough to have sex with you while having sex with someone else, frankly that is all you really need to know about him.

You started this post by suggesting your H was a virtuous man, and wondered how he can do this. Well, since people are what they are, it suggests your previous view was the wrong one, now you see the truth. He is indeed self-serving, and his previous behaviour felt "good" simply because at the time it got him what he wanted. Likewise he is behaving now in whatever ways give him what he wants, he will probably come back, affairs rarely work out, and you are pliable (read that easily manipulated), but it will not be cause he chose you, but just cause you are the better choice for now. Having young children makes this tough, but I think Dr. Dobson (tough love) and Dr. Phil Mcgraw (get real) have it right, you need to make your H face himself, and that is by setting and keeping your boundaries AND making himself earn his way back by appropriate behaviour. That definitely includes no sexual access until he is demonstrably faithful, protective, and YOU feel safe.

<small>[ December 15, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

LA, you make some valid deductions here...

Yes, being part of a harem can lead to disasterous consequences. It certainly seems to create an atmosphere of "unreality" where the WS can somehow believe that their behavior is "okay" or even being rewarded.

However... That's why I believe Plan A is never intended to be a permanent thing, or a lifestyle choice. It's real purpose is very narrow: a period to negotiate the end of the A using behavior modification techniques by the BS... I.e., the only "thing" we BS's have any control over, being ourselves.

I suspect that meeting the SF need, at least in the short-term, can be a good thing, if it's Plan A that you're practicing. I've heard before that you're either in Plan A or B, so do a bang-up job with either.

Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" approach talks about being part of a harem also. He advocates swift, decisive "Plan B" type of action. And my personal opinion is that it's very often necessary, regardless. Harley adds on the period of Plan A at the "start", to allow the BS a chance to:

1. Prove they can meet the WS's EN's (silently defeating the WS's rationalizations)
2. Know they did everything they could
3. Learn new behaviors that will be beneficial regardless of outcome
4. Slowly lose their love for the WS, making Plan B "easier", thus making divorce easier if it comes to that

That's my Harley take on things anyhow...

A companion question is why do these men seem to see the OW as innocent and naieve and place so much blame on their wives? Do you think its all the resentment they hold towards their spouse for years of past behavoirs that they weent able to speak out about and they dont have that history with OW yet?

Maybe it is partly a matter of perception, if your ws is a person who does care about peoples feelings, then how can they not care about the OP? Then if the bs starts a compeitition over who deserves more of the ws "caring" it feels manipulative, which triggers defensive behaviour (ie rejection of the bs, using criticism, blame, etc. as the means). They are not protecting the OP, they are protecting themself from the obvious (to them, and with some justification) manipulations of their BS. The BS interprets this as protecting the OP, and the cycle escalates, until major LB'ing goes on, etc. It seems a losing proposition to "educate" anyone (and certainly a ws) that they should choose to care and protect "you" more, caring does not work that way, it is not a compeition. And finally, the ws percieves the bs contributed to the marital failure (and they most often are guilty also, to one degree or another), so they (ws) are not particularly motivated to listen to a lot of angst, much less act on it. BS are often (just read the many posts here) very demanding about caring behaviour from their ws, and angry when they don't get it, one does not need to be a rocket sceientist to see what is wrong with that picture.