This is the situation I face right now, though I am going to write this from a generic point of view, in the hopes I might get some opinions on how it can/should be handled.

Okay, the situation is this: Your WS wants a Dv. They aren't in a position to want to get a lawyer for an expensive court battle. They just want you to sign a mutual agreement to divorce with them.

Because you're still in Plan A, you're not quite ready for this, however, you realize that it will likely be a LB to fight your WS and tell them you will not sign off on a mutual divorce. You may be ready to do this someday, but not until you feel you've given Plan A and Plan B enough time to work.

So, the question is, if your WS brings this up to you point blank, how do you sit down with him/her and discuss it?

At this point, I feel I will tell my W: "I am not ready to sign Dv papers at this time, I don't feel comfortable doing that."

I know it's not the right thing to say, as to her it will seem like I am just delaying the inevitable if she wants Dv.

Then, I figure asking her why SHE wants a Dv so soon, as part of POJA, will likely get me one of two reactions:

1) Highly unlikely, but she admits that she is doing it because she loves/is seeing OM and wants to be free of the M for him. I do believe this is the reason, he is pushing for her to get Dv and she wants it to feel less guilt. However, I do not plan to bring OM up and I doubt she will either.

2) The more likely response. She just says she wants it because we are over, she has no faith in the M, she will likely tell me to just accept facts that the M is over and stop prolonging the inevitable.

So, given those 2 possibilities, how can I handle a POJA and come out of the discussion with us both getting what we want? Is it even possible? I'd like to delay the Dv, at least until I feel my Plan A/B are over, and I'm sure she wants Dv started ASAP.

So, if/when I get to this situation (I feel it may happen in the next week or two), what next?

ALS

ALS - IMHO, there is no POJA unless both spouses are committed to it - which your wife obviously isn't. So, there will be no joint agreement here.

I suggest you allow her to proceed as she sees fit. Don't willingly participate, but don't block the process, either. Let her initiate everything.

I do not know the details of your financial situation or comptemplated division of assets, but if you have not consulted an attorney, please do so. Civil divorce is more of a "business" transaction than an emotional one. Be prepared for what may be inevitable.

An attorney can advise you how to make the record show that you did not want a divorce and your conclusions for why it happened. An alternative is to simply counter file on the basis of adultery if you can legally prove it.

WAT,

Thanks for your advice. That really makes a lot of sense.

Let me give a little more background into the divorce situation. Because our marriage has been so short, there really are no financial disputes right now. My W's name is not on the house or either of our 2 vehicles. We did each have our own bank accounts that we kept our earnings in, though our names remain on each others' accounts.

Now, after D-Day, I was the first one to bring up Dv. I even went so far as to research and download paperwork on a "no fault" divorce just because I didn't see any reason to get lawyers involved and waste a lot of money.

So, given that, do you know (or does anyone else know) what the benefits would be for somehow noting on a "no fault" divorce (if that's even possible) that I objected to it, or if the only way to do that would be to get lawyers involved on both sides? I don't see any reason to waste a ton of cash on lawyers if the final outcome is going to be Dv regardless, but I don't feel right about signing off a paper saying I WANT a divorce right now.

She can't file no-fault on her own, I think for her to file on her own without my consent/signature on the paperwork, she needs to go through a lawyer and it will become a court battle. Maybe I'm wrong there though.

What would the benefit of my counter-filing based on adultery be?

My wife cannot afford a lawyer, and knows that she has everything to lose in a divorce battle. So she and I are both aware that, if it came down to us actually fighting it out, she would end up on the losing side.

I have a lot of email that can prove her adultery, could probably easily get more proof if I needed it via a PI or otherwise. I am to assume that even though she has moved out of the house, any PA with OM is still adultery as long as we are married, correct? She never saw it that way, told me as soon as she was moving out she was free to do whatever she pleases with whomever she pleases.

Finally, you say allow her to initiate everything. That I am doing, even though I brought up Dv first after D-Day, I fell back on that and decided I didn't want a Dv, and told my W that. So I left it all in her hands and I believe she has now filled out all the paperwork and is ready for me to sign. So, she HAS initiated that portion, but now do I just sign the paperwork and make it easy, or do I refuse to sign, which would be a LB probably as she'll see me as being difficult and trying to drag things out?

ALS

ALS - my advice was of an emotional nature - not legal. By allowing her to initiate everything and getting on the record that you did not desire a divorce, you set yourself up for future peace of mind. You are young and have learned a wealth of knowledge from this experience and it may be time to cut your losses and find a mate worthy of your integrity. Allowing her to proceed without undue delay by you may be your best move. No need to make it painful but less and less need to be concerned about LBs.

I do not know how or if you can document in a no-fault process the fact that you did not want divorce - but I believe it is possible as I accomplished this in my divorce, but which was not no fault (I had my attorney file a pleading in our "voluntary" divorce that described the affair and even named OM). Your logic for not wanting to spend $$ on lawyers is sound. If your wife really wants to proceed and if it can be done, she may not object to your desires to document your feelings in the no-fault process vs. going the expensive route. Ask her.

I do not necessarily advocate filing on the basis of adultery in your case - or any case - unless there is some protection or financial gain incentive, or to hurry along the process (which can be the case if minor children are involved - waiting periods can be waived). This doesn't appear to be the situation for you.

BTW - has she agreed to let you have the house and both cars? If so, take it and run.

Take my word for it: it hurts like heck right now, but it will be sooner than you think that you realize that your life without her can be a LOT better. I'm a HUGE advocate that all attempts to save marriages should be made, but it takes two to do this. You cannot clap with one hand.

WAT

Also, ALS, I would be remiss NOT to advise you to consider going to Plan B as soon as this divorce talk is complete.

Affairs with out children can very quickly get to divorce for obvious reasons and "normal" time periods for Plan A may not be available.

If this comes to pass, please seek advice on this in a separate post to get more views.

Of course, this presumes your Plan A afforded you the opportunity to find and fix your flaws.

WAT

<small>[ December 27, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

WAT,

My Plan A -- Well, I don't feel I did an effective Plan A when my W was in the house those 3 weeks after D-Day. I had my good moments but then shattered them with demands or disrespectful judgements, talking about divorce, lawyers, etc...She had bad memories of me up until the day she moved out, when I finally got my Plan A straight.

Since then, I have been reading a ton of books, learning at this forum and over at the DB Forums, and, while I still believe I can always learn more, I am definitely a more enlightened, better man than I was in the months leading up to D-Day.

The issue is, with my W being out of the house, our limited contact hasn't given more than probably about 3 hours cumulatively of personal contact (phone or in person) in the past month and a half. I don't really think 3 hours of Plan A time is going to be enough to show her changes. Of course, she has no interest in taking me up on dinners, or chances to talk or see each other, so I don't see how at this point I may EVER get the chance to show her my Plan A changes.

For that reason, I am just assuming she is going to, after the New Year, come back asking about the Dv again. I know this was an issue for OM right off, as I read an email from him to her right after D-Day, where he said "All you need is to file the papers and we'll be free" or something to that effect. So it is obviously important to him that he sees the process moving along, and I'm sure it's important to her as well, she feels it will take her guilt away (and it may) and I'm sure OM will be very pleased to know she is filing.

As for property -- She wants one of the cars. She has it now. She isn't entitled to it as it was fully paid for before we even met. Then again, she isn't disputing any sort of equity that we gained or property that we bought in the past year. She only took things that she paid for with her own money. Not much. So we have no real disputes over the house or my other car. That would all be mine.

As for Plan B, are you saying that I should go to B regardless of the divorce talk, or IF the divorce papers get filed? And if so, do I then tell her to take the rest of her things out of the house right away and that we aren't going to be speaking at all via the Plan B letter? She still has a ton of her personal stuff here. At first I thought it may be due to her having second thoughts, now I just think I am her free storage facility.

ALS

I'm not certain you should go to Plan B at all - just consider it. Given your abbreviated Plan A, perhaps Plan B isn't appropriate.

Have you written her a Plan A letter? It's essentially the same as a Plan B letter, but without the "no contact" punch line. You can do this right now to make sure she has seen your real desires.

But let me ask you this: she's only 23 (I've got t-shirts older than her) and likely has a lot of maturing to do. Do you really believe you could ever trust her again? You're only 29 with no kids. Heck, I didn't get married until I was 30. There are a LOT of fish out there.

I think you've got no choice but to let her have her divorce. Send her a Plan A letter expressing your hopes and desires and then let her proceed with divorce. Give her a fair settlement, but don't give away the store - how much is the car she wants worth?

Then her relationship with OM will either make it or it won't. If it doesn't, she may approach you if you continue to act with integrity through the divorce. But, I'm willing to bet that by that time - if it ever comes - you'll be long gone.

WAT

I will definitely consider Plan B, WAT, thanks. I wish I had a better opportunity for a Plan A but I sort of helped to shoot myself in the foot on that one. I just was having a lot of trouble living with her when the A was ongoing even after D-Day. I wasn't handling that well. I wasn't really able to start getting my act together until she moved out. Of course then it may have been too late as I know having her own place did allow her and OM to get a lot closer.

That t-shirt comment is damn funny, yeah. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know she's young, and yes, she has a lot of maturing to do. If she can't show any signs of maturity in wanting to turn this around and work on our M, there really is no need for me to push. I just want her to know, when she files, that I wasn't the one who gave up. I think she knows that but before signing on a Dv, letting her know that it's still not what I want should hammer that point home.

Do I believe I could trust her again? A very good question. One I have asked myself many times and don't know the answer to. I would have a lot of trust issues. I told her this after D-Day. That may be part of the reason she had trouble wanting to work on M. She knew trust was broken and I told her it would be hard for me to get it back. Could I? I know that I could. But it would take a lot of time. And a lot of openness that I don't think she is willing to give up on. I think, in a nutshell, she is enjoying her freedom.

Oh my, you never read the saga of my Plan A letter? You won't believe what happened. Check that out here if you dare:

ALS's Plan A Letter Fiasco

The only thing she wants is the car. It's probably worth 4-5k blue book. It's got 120,000 miles on it. It's about 6 years old. Everything else she wants is just stuff that was a gift to her or that she paid for. She already has it all for the most part. Someone in my family this weekend told me I should get the engagement ring back! That's not appropriate, is it? I mean, if she wants to keep it, that is something that is hers I assume, even if our M was only a year. One thing she did say the last time we talked about things, she said that she could NEVER sell that ring. So at least she still holds some sort of sentimental feelings towards me in that regard. That gave me a bit of hope.

Thank you for all this advice, WAT, you don't know how much it means, and what you say always makes so much sense!

ALS

ALS,

Sorry it's been awhile since I contacted you. I have read this whole stream and somewhat agree with what is being said. However, and this depends soley on you, why not just ride it out and wait. You said you think your wife will come to you after the New Year to ask/discuss the divorce. Just wait. I have read, and I think you have, surviving an affair. One of the couples went through close to a year before the WS crashed. There may be talk of divorce but she is going to have to do the leg work. Let her. At 23 I didn't know a thing. Now at 33 I bearly know a thing. So point is she is young "in love" (fantasy) and this OM is filling her head with ideas. Don't be so nice. Let her feel the guilt while she is with him. Maybe it will finally crack her.

As I said this depends on you. Being 29 yourself, you may want to cut your losses and move on. You probably don't know that yet. Just live your life for a while longer and set a date in your head for plan B. If that date comes then do it. Do you have an mutual friends? Could they tell you how she is feeling?

As WAT said, you may want to contact a lawyer just to get some info on the pro's and con's of YOU filling under adultry. The more info the better right?

Anyway hang in there and just let life takes its course for a few months. Go out and enjoy yourself. Who knows what will happen.

So, the question is, if your WS brings this up to you point blank, how do you sit down with him/her and discuss it?
You don't discuss it. Simply say, "I don't want a divorce."

LB? Sort of. But almost ANYTHING you do at this point is a LB in her eyes, so don't sweat it. You worry about LB when it will adversely affect the relationship. A divorce adversely affects the relationship so don't do it.

I do believe this is the reason, he is pushing for her to get Dv
Good. Let HIM LB and she will see him for what he really is.

They push for divorce to make it quick & easy. Get it out of the way before they have to think about what they are doing.

Seems like you need to study up on Plan A and do a better job of doing it! You don't need to announce anything about it but you need to definitely show her your optimum Plan A! This is what you "should" do before Plan B. Helps her remember you in a good light.

Hello again friend. Just looking in to see how things are going for you. Sorry to see you're where your at now. WAT's given you some great advice so I'll just leave you with that. The only thing I might inject into this is the question of the engagement ring. That one is entirely up to you. If I am not mistaken, in most states it is considered a CONDITIONAL gift. The idea is, the man show's his commitment to the woman by spending an atrocious amount of money on a diamond, 3 months salary I believe (BTW, I'd like to meet the niblehead that came up with that idea-most likely a woman). I don't know where you live, but my sister was sued by her ex for the engagement ring and he won. To be honost, I don't blame him for wanting it back, it was a 13K$ ring <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

If I am not mistaken, in most states it is considered a CONDITIONAL gift.
Conditional upon marriage. The law has ruled (in most states) usually, whoever breaks off the engagement loses the ring. However, once the marriage has taken place, then the CONDITION has been met. But in the case of a short marriage, especially where infidelity has taken place, then perhaps you have a leg to stand on?

spending an atrocious amount of money on a diamond, 3 months salary I believe (BTW, I'd like to meet the niblehead that came up with that idea-most likely a woman).
Actually, it was the DeBeers family diamond cartel. 30 years ago, diamond engagement rings in Japan were almost unheard of. But thanks to heavy advertising, almost 75% of engagements there now have diamond rings.

Hey everyone -

Sorry it took me this long to get back to you, entertaining some friends this weekend, we were out LATE last nite!

Mark - Great to hear from you. Been following your threads as well in recovery, just didn't get around to posting yet. I am happy to hear your wife is home.

I do believe I'll contact a lawyer once Dv gets brought up and looks serious. It still looks like I have two schools of thought here. WAT says to go ahead and just go along with Dv right away, Chris seems to think I should just tell her I don't want it and let it sit for a while longer. Regardless though, I will let her do as much of the legwork as possible if she wants a Dv, though if we go the no-fault route (due to being able to save money on lawyers) we will both need to be involved to a degree.

Sadly we have NO mutual friends here. She moved down here and had NO friends at all for a year, just mine, and now all her friends are through her job (including OM) who I have never met. She has always kept them separate from me. It's too bad there is no one mutual, that would be such a huge help.

For now, I am starting to branch off a lot, and not focusing on what she is doing. It really is getting easier all the time. Especially weekends like this when I have friends over.

Chris -- Can you give me some tips on what else I can do as part of Plan A? I do think I'm doing my best when the chance comes, as much as I can with my wife living at her own apartment and still seeing OM anyway. I do agree though, OM is pushing for Dv I am sure, and so is my W, only because it makes things easier for them. Again, she's not taking my feelings into account at all.

MTD - Nice to see ya. Thanks for your words. Not really anything changing YET, just nothing going better either. But sometimes no news is good news. I think I sometimes feel worse AFTER I see my W just because she is always so cold and negative.

As for the ring, I dunno, I may just let her have it if she REALLY wants it, then again, if I don't mean anything to her AND she doesn't plan to sell it off, why would she WANT it? It wasn't a super expensive ring anyway, I just couldn't afford it, but it is pretty nice I'd say. At any rate, not sure what to do about that one, perhaps I'll play it by ear and see how she plays out the Dv thing, though I assume asking for ring is another BIG LB...I shouldn't assume she'd ever want to work on M after that one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

ALS - I believe Chris and I are actually of the same mindset. I recommend you take a passive approach to any divorce proceedings, making it clear to your wife that you don't want a divorce, as Chris has stated.

I didn't intend to communicate you should enthusiastically go along. Just don't throw up expensive, legal roadblocks. Sure, drag your feet a bit. If she gets all the paperwork together and presents it to you, tell her you need some time to process it all and make some decisions. Take as much time as you want. If she gets antsy and beligerant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> let her up the stakes. You should not have to spend a dime on legal expenses unless you want a different financial settlement and maybe not even then.

WAT

Thanks, WAT. I really like that suggestion as how to approach things. I am assuming that it will be LB to do anything but sign right away if she presents me with papers, but I will just do my best to tell her I'm not ready yet and that it's not fair to just try and force me into it like that. I'm sure I'll get the "Why delay the inevitable" speech or something but if I expect that, I can be ready for it.

By the way, went into town and had friends over all weekend, hit some bars, had a GREAT time out there. When friends are around, I totally forget my problems most of the time. It's the ALONE time that makes it worse. But this weekend was good. It's now almost 9 weeks since D-Day, and I really feel like I am getting better.

I'm not sure if it's patience, detachment, or if I'm getting ready to move on, but I do feel pretty good about myself today. So chalk this one up as a good day, and a good weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

I am assuming that it will be LB to do anything but sign right away if she presents me with papers, but I will just do my best to tell her I'm not ready yet
Don't tell her, "I'm not ready, YET!" Just tell her you don't want a divorce. If you tell her, "yet" she may get the message (from bizarro world?!) that she can get you to the point where you are ready.

When filing, there are generally 3 ways to do it.
1 - Get a signature from the other spouse saying they have received the papers and waive service.
2 - Have the other spouse served. Usually by a process server/sheriff dept.
3 - By advertisement if the whereabouts/address of other spouse are unknown

Again, almost anything you do will be a LB (to her) at this point. If you sign, she will later say, "you signed the papers, you wanted a divorce." If you don't sign now, then she gets ticked off now. You do the least LB which will work FOR the marriage, not speed a divorce.

Be careful going out to bars. Remember, you ARE MARRIED AND ACT LIKE IT! No dancing/chatting up other women, etc.
Don't discuss your marriage/lack of marriage with ANY female "friends". The only females you should be discussing this stuff with are your mom, sister, her mom, a counselor in the office as a professional visit.

I'm not sure if it's patience, detachment, or if I'm getting ready to move on,
Hmm? It ain't your ready to move on. It's you adjusting to the situation/pain & hurt. It gets better, it gets worse. The "rollercoaster" it's called.

Slow & steady...

Chris,

I was very sorry to read about your loss in the other forum. My prayers are with you and your family. I lost my mother very suddenly in an accident around 6 years ago, so I know what you are going through.

Thank you for the "yet" thing. You're right, I need to choose my words carefully. At this point I don't want a divorce. While I MAY be ready for that someday, I don't need to give that impression now.

As far as filing goes, she does NOT want to involve lawyers, and wants to do a mutual, no fault divorce, so I assume it will need to be a mutually signed document, notarized and all. If I tell her I won't sign, she'll basically have two options, to either be patient and wait, or to take a new route and file on her own without me.

I do feel like holding off is the best course of action. I do not want to give her the idea that I am looking for a Dv or I'll feel like I didn't try. It's been a bit over 2 months since D-Day and I think that's just too soon.

I am surprised at how well I've been adjusting lately. The loneliness at the house, sleeping alone, and all that has actually died down considerably. Spending time with friends REALLY helps. I must say that all I'm reading and learning has really helped. Thanks to you and everyone here for your advice on this, it's been incredibly helpful to me.

Oh, and as for the bars, I've been good - No dancing or chatting up other women. Just hanging out with my friends and having fun. My W basically kept me from doing this a lot since we got married, she never liked hanging out with my friends and wouldn't allow me to go out on my own, so I must say I am enjoying the chance to do that again. So thankful for my friends.

ALS

Take care.

ALS