<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

I don't even remember WHY I started to fight for this in the first place.
Because you have that son together and you love him? Something like that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's funny, but now when I see him, I see how completely we both have changed. I went from being lost and empty to being somewhat focused, and complete, he is now the one that is changing his appearance and is so BUSY running that he will eventually collapse from the stress of it all.
Yes, you learned how to cope, and he is running. I have to think he will come out of this sometime and try to cope too. You have been wondering when, but now you are tired and its' hard to keep your good attitude up.

I am so sad that I finally realized how to love him, and I am willing to love him for WHO he is, and now he doesn't even want to see it.
So, how do you know that? He doesn't even know who he is, so why would you think he knows what he wants?

I am going dark now and I'm not sure what will happen. At this point, I can't live for someone that wishes I would disappear.
My personal opinion is not that he wants you to disappear, it is that he wishes you both could go back before all this happened and somehow make it work. We know it can't be done but that seems to be his wish. It looks to me like he is frustrated ( and it comes out as anger) because he doesn't know what to do. He is in the state of conflict. That means he cares, and you know that but you are tired.

Give it a rest, go dark if it will help YOU. He is flailing around trying to find his way, I would still give him pointers whenever he will take them, unless you are ready to look for someone else, and I don't believe you are.

You have it together better than many here, don't quit because it is hard. Think some more, take a rest, and keep after it.

SS

Kily,
If he truly didn't care he wouldn't call. I think Still Seeking is right, he's running, but isn't sure what he's running from or to. The fact that he calls means he cares. The anger is just his way of dealing with his pain.

If it would not have been for this site I would have reacted in the same way, I have no doubt; I have done it before. If W and I got into an arguement I would call 3-4 times just to rehash the arguement that was already done, or for no reason at all. Why? Because I wanted to hear her voice, no matter how mad at her I was at the time. And I wanted to know that SHE STILL CARED. I wanted her to know that I was still angry, that she still hurt me. And I wanted (needed) to know that she still Loved me and was trying.

This is just my opinion, could be wrong. Maybe it's a "Man" thing, I don't know. But I can say that I have felt this way in the past. You are on his mind right now, constantly. That's why he's calling.

Keep your chin up and do what YOU need to do for YOU. God Bless.

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Dear Kily

Look, maybe I'm going out on a limb here, as I sometimes think I'm prone to do, but hey!!! I can't believe how RUDE he was. I can't believe he didn't thank you for the biscuits (let's get a bit of English in here to cheer you up), I can't believe how childish he was, I can't believe how ignorant he was that he couldn't just accept your good wishes for a safe journey. Call me old fashioned, but where an earth has this man's manners gone to.....

Kily, you and I have both been remorseful, expressed our deepest regrets for our poor choices and the devastation we have caused our loved ones. But his behaviour is unacceptable, and frankly, I think you should tell him.

It does sound like you need a break. Is there any news on the redundancy front? Might you be able to book some time out, even a long weekend somewhere, a change of scenery, anything that would help you find some peace?

Kily, I have come to realise over the last couple of days, that no matter what I do, if H is not willing to let go of some of his hurt, and stand still rather than run from the difficult issues of our M, there is nothing I can do. Except to work on me....

Thinking of you Kily, we all care you know.

Lisa in rainy London.

I'm just so lost as to how to get there. I NEED for him to be a partner in this. We all know that it simply isn't going to happen that way.......
I must be dumb, because I don't know that yet. I believe it won't happen today, but I don't know it won't work out in the next few years. I also believe you can't continue to put 200% of your self into it each day like you have been doing and that you need to take it easy and get some rest.

The acceptance of that is what has been hurting me so much over the last few days. Yes there is still guilt, but I am slowly overcoming this.
You are slowly overcoming it, and you started a long time ago. I believe it was JL that pointed out that X has just started processing things and it will take him some time. Now, I am not saying I know it will work, but as long as you still have feelings, and don't want to look around, you may as well keep working on it. But yes, as you say later, detach, and use some of your energy on .......say.......... finishing school. I never did see if you were going to quit work and do it???
Did I miss it somehow?

I hear his words "I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU", and then my own DS's words "What have you done? My daddy is gone. What have you done?" and I simply die all over again. How can you heal that kind of devastation?
I believe that is part of the price we pay for some of our mistakes. I don't know how to get out of that one. Someday you will heal, and the triggers will stop, but I don't know when or how. Even if you know that, you still have to live each day until it happens.

Kily, it is not so much the mistakes we make as it is how we react to them that determines who we are. (though by now you have learned that some things are more easily avoided than fixed later.) You are reacting correctly, and that will bring about happiness to you in Gods own good time. Have some faith. Have faith that you will be happy if you continue to do what is right. Have faith that God will bring you happiness if you continue to seek him. Have faith that even if you don't understand how it will happen, that it still will happen. Continue the good work you are doing until you know more - for right now you don't know.

I have faith in God, but I have a great deal of faith in you also.

SS

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily,

I think Lisa hit on something you really need to consider. You need to set boundaries with regard to his behavior. You didn't originally and eventually it wore you down. You need to now. His outburst was very childish and really shouldn't be tolerated.

As for your courses, I supposs it makes sense to not go to school as much, but when the recession ends you want to be well placed and ready. Your courses should be interesting, although thermo is a strong statement that chemists should never be allowed to name anything. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I mean "entropy, enthalpy", what was wrong with heat,etc? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

E&M now there is a good course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Maxwell's equations are truely a thing of beauty and when you consider the time in which they were developed amazing.

You see, you are now talking about something I actually know something about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> If you have questions,let me know, but probably a marriage building forum is not the place to be discussing these tawdry topics. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hang in there and chill abit. Also think about the boundary issues. You two have a child and so contact will always be there, it needs to be civil.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily,
Sounds like you have a new plan.

[QUOTE] Remember I WAS the invisible girl for so long and he WAS my hero....
Wow do you sound like my wife! She keeps playing the song "Superman" by EMINEM. She says that's the male race...

[QUOTE] The last thing I want is for DS to learn that it is okay to treat mommy as if she were garbage....
You are breaking the cycle. I wish someone in my family would have done that, but I guess we have to pick up and carry on where others did not. I commend you for this, maybe the most important thing you are doing.

Sorry, no inspiring words of wisdom. Just encouragement and prayer...

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Hey Kily,
This was a good one, I had to sit and think about it for a while.
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I guess you just reach a point in your life where you know that no matter how much you want something, you have to accept that you can't MAKE it happen. It's now in higher hands than mine and I'm okay with this.
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I know what you mean. But that’s a VERY hard thing to do. I know I can’t make anything happen, but just letting go seems like an unbelievable option. I hope someday I’ll get to your point; I keep asking God for help, asking him to show me direction and give me strength, then I keep wanting to do my own thing.
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I have planted my seedlings in X's garden, and now it's time to step away and see how they grow. The funny thing is that when I planted these seeds, I must have dropped some because I am seeing the fruit from these plants in my own garden!
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Lol… isn’t that the way it’s supposed to work? Plan A is about YOU right?
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My healing process -
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Wow… I have to say I see many of these things in my wife, but I also see them in me. Maybe the healing process isn’t so much different on both sides of the fence. I have to say neither of us is as far along as you. I commend you, it looks like you are doing an excellent job with your recovery and your life.
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I asked him if he wanted to talk to a sadness doctor because I think that he might need an outlet. He said yes.
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I agree with you. As parents it’s very hard to admit that we can’t do everything, but the reality is that we can’t. Children are MUCH more perceptive than any of us give them credit for, yours is no exception. If X has a problem with it I would say “Tough”, it’s for the sake of your son and his future, not your X’s ego. I do have to say I can understand X’s point of view, I think it’s a male thing….. But, the welfare of your child comes first. Get him into some type of counseling, especially if he lost his brother too. It all goes back to breaking that cycle so he and his children will have a better life someday. If your X has big heartburn with it try to explain it like this: "If he broke his arm would you want me to give him asprin and put a band aid on it, or would you want me to take him to the hospital?" Instead of a broken arm he has a broken heart; can't see it, but it still needs fixing. May work, may not.
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Anyway - my optimism and hope have returned. The focus has changed a little, but I think that the light is in the right place now.
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That’s good. You had me worried there for a while. Rough days SUCK!! But the only thing that gets me through is the fact that I know the days are only as bad as I allow them to. And if I allow them to be bad I’m giving that MF (AKA OM) control over MY FAMILY and ME. THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN (not if I can help it). I control my life and how I feel. Yes, wife and others influence how I feel, but ultimately it’s up to me to make it or break it. Just a thought, that’s how I get through the rough ones. That, this site, and a WHOLE LOT of PRAYER!

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

They have a right to think and feel what they want, just as you do. If they seek happiness elsewhere, then they feel that it is necessary for them. You have that choice too, but chose a different path.
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This part I have come to grips with. Something along the lines of “If you love something let it go free, if it returns to you it is yours forever, if it doesn’t it was never yours”. The problem I’m having is turning everything over to God and letting go. I just can’t seem to do that.

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It HAS taught me to listen to the messages that I receive. I still find it really hard to obey.
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This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about!! I know what you mean here, wish I had an answer to that question, but unfortunately I don’t.

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I just worry that I am making too much out of the issue. Am I trying to force DS to talk to someone because I am feeling guilty about tearing his life apart?
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It’s like that “Gut Feeling” everyone talks about. If you think it’s right, then it’s right. YOU have to do what’s best for YOUR SON. Maybe he doesn’t need counseling, but let a professional counselor be the judge of that, that’s what they get paid for!!

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I can see this going so many ways, and to be honest, I am scared that the therapy will point to even MORE damage in me that I haven't addressed yet. One thought that does replay in my mind is the belief that I WAS the only one with issues. I keep thinking that my weaknesses HURT everyone, and that I don't deserve to have a family. this of course is my inner child, but that irrational fear is there.
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You have to be ready to address any issues that come up. When you get to that point you will know, but at least get some help for your son now. I know exactly what you mean by being the only one with issues. Since my wife’s IC told her she was fine I’ve been dealing with an unbelievable amount of guilt. I don’t agree with him, but the fact remains that it is a possibility. So, now I have to learn to deal with the fact that it was ME all along that DESTROYED our marriage, not her failing to deal with her past problems. That one hurts, but it’s a starting point for me to improve my marriage, my family, and myself.

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I believe that if DS is really feeling broken hearted, it may be the catalyst that DAD needs to really look at forgiveness instead of hatred
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You can’t know what others are feeling. And, you can’t change the way others feel. The only thing you can do is address the issues at hand, and take professional guidance on how to fix them. X’s hatred may very well be a catalyst for your son, but let a professional tell him that. If you tell him that it will only cause a greater divide and as you said “Make him hate you even more”. If he hears if from someone else, someone with HIS SON’S interests in mind it will come across much better than if he hears if from you; someone he perceives as having an ulterior motive. Make sense?

Hi Kily,
Hope you are doing okay this weekend.

It sounds sensible to take your son to counseling, based on what you've said here.

This hit home for me, when you said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also find that GOD asks me to do things and I find it extremely hard to obey. I think I mentioned this, but I remember leaving for the airport for my last trip, and GOD kept telling me to turn around and go home. I didn't listen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had so many 'signs' from God, before I actually met OM and continued on my path of destruction. One of our children was hospitalized briefly before I met OM in person. We had our pastor visit us there, in the hospital. I thought then, 'This should knock me to my senses." It didn't. Once when I snuck out to call OM, I ran into a wonderful employee at our church, near the phone booth. I thought, "This is a sign, from God...". I live in a huge metro area, and I rarely see a soul that I know. I ignored the reminder.

And , like you--I remember distinctly backing out of my driveway--looking at my house, as I drove off to finally meet him face to face. I thought, 'This will forever change your life." I then just went on my merry way, with a shrug. I was , in retrospect, so very confused and full of turmoil but yet I sought my own selfish medication.

So here we are now, trying to put it all together again. I always think of Humpty Dumpty!

BTW , loved your analogy about the seedlings, Kily. You're such a great writer!

Just know that I'm thinking of you. You've helped me so much.

Take care,
H_P

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily,
That sounds GREAT!! Sounds like you may have had a real breakthrough this weekend! I'm very happy for you. Funny though.... You keep commenting on how you and my wife could be the same person..
Well, my wife ALWAYS tells me "Your a big boy, you can take care of yourself." lol... Had to laugh at that one, just too much of a coincidence. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily,
Maybe it's a breakthrough, maybe not. But, he is noticing your changes, and he still has feelings there. That would tell me that he is struggling between his heart and his mind. His heart is telling him to go for it, his mind is telling him to run the other way. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I would say.

Funny... very similar to what I see my wife going through right now. She notices changes, even comments on some of them. But she still keeps talking about leaving.

I would say just continue on the road you are on. That's what's best for you and your son. If he decides to join you then all the better, if not then he will have missed out, not you.

I believe you will get the help you need when you need it.

Just don't give up when you have bad days.

SS