Kily's ongoing saga.......2003 - Marriage Builders® Forums

[ February 16, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,

I think you need to stop and really think about all of this. First, it is clear that your S is getting his anger and frustration from your exBF. He sees it, he feels it, he cannot understand it, so he reflects it. Perhaps it is time to just BE. Have little or no contact with your exBF. I don't mean run, I mean just sit and let him work through this. He is hurting your S because clearly he is not controling his anger around him and probably didn't when you were gone. You need to provide a calm place for your S to live and you cannot do that when you are bouncing off of the walls that are your exBF's.

Your exBF is dealing with things he has had to surpress for a few years. He doesn't really have the tools to do it, who does. He didn't deserve what you did to him. I think that is fair to say. But, he did make several mistakes. He chose to be with you, and clearly he had issues. Perhaps his reticence to commit was in part to his feelings that you weren't stable. I don't know.

But the point is he is going to have to deal with this and you really cannot help him. He is also going to have to face that you aren't going away. You two have a S together and so are joined in life forever, unless one of you runs away from the S.

This brings me to the last thought I had. Let's assume the worst for a second. He cannot forgive. He cannot get rid of the anger. He cannot find love for you.

If that is the case what is the best possible outcome for you, your S, and him? It is for both of you to find someone that makes you happy and completes you. Similarly for him. If you and exBF are happy with your respective lives and mates, then your S has 4 parents to show him love and guide him in his life. That is not bad at all.

I suspect your S's comments about exBF's GF, is more about wanting peace. I suspect she looks like the calm one compared to your exBF and your efforts. Hence my previous suggestion that you calm down. Let this work out.

Finally, Kily there is something you have to admit to yourself. You said at one time you worked in an engineering organization. Do you know what entropy is? If so, then consider what you have done to be like entropy. Once you creat it, it cannot be undone. You cannot go back in time and fix this. You cannot make it right. You can only deal with the consequences. The same holds for your exBF. The options simply are: decide to come together and make the rest of your life a good one, not come together and make the rest of your life a good one, or let this continue to mess up your life.

You cannot fix your exBF.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

[ February 16, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,

Here's something else to think about.

He is making it VERY clear that he wants me GONE. Why is he turning to me when he has a trigger? Wouldn’t his GF be the one to help him heal? I AM SO CONFUSED by this.

You are confused because he says he wants you gone, but you still have a connection, and his actions don't always say the same as his words.

You say you don't feel the need to date right now. Why not wait, and see what happens. We really don't know, do we?? It has been a long time since it happened, but he has never processed his feelings, until now. He is just now coming to grips with things. If this played out as it does many times here, he could still come around after he deals with things. You are still learning, and you are still growing, and improving. I agree with JL, back off, talk when HE wants to talk. Keep agreeing with him that you hurt him, ( and you, and son, and so on,) keep trying. You will improve, he may come around, and either way, you will be better able to live whatever your future will be. I admire your ability to focus, but a bright light focused too sharply will burn up what it is focused upon. Perhapse changing your focus to something else will let things cool off.

SS

[ January 07, 2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

[ February 16, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

[ February 16, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,

I have really nothing to offer to your last post, but that you are on a journey, that is finally starting to show its purpose.

God Bless,

JL

[ February 16, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

kily,

I've never posted to you before but couldn't keep myself away from this one.

You said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kily:
No matter how much positive I do in my life, people are always going to view me in the contaxt of the GF that cheated on poor XBF.<hr /></blockquote>I'm here to tell you that this is not true. I've seen a lot of WS's come to this site and pour out their pain, frustration and sorrow. I don't know if it's the way you communicate or the path you've taken or what exactly it is, but you definitely fall into the 3*sigma category.

You've done a lot, you've come so far. You're absolutely 100% correct when you say that's not who you are. IMHO, when you get to the point where you can look back on your mistakes and know that you have moved so far beyond them that you would not repeat those errors if you were faced with the same temptation, you are forgiven. You need to forgive yourself, kily.

You have done and are doing ALL YOU CAN DO to repair the damage. That's all you can be expected to do. He's got to do his part too, and frankly I think he probably will - but just like you, he will have to do it on his own time schedule, and in his own way. He's expressing his anger, and so many men can't/won't do that. You're expressing acceptance and love to him even though he's angry, and so many women can't/won't do that, either. You're doing an awesome job. I hope this mess results in a happy reunion for you both, and a secure family for your son, but nobody knows if it'll turn out that way. It'd be wonderful for you if it happens. If it doesn't, you are much better prepared for a happy, fulfilling life than ever before.

Enjoy it. No matter what the path, enjoy it.

[ January 17, 2003, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: o2bsane ]

Kily,
Don't beat yourself up based on what you think others will think of you. The question is how do you REALLY feel about yourself?

The great thing about spirituality (no matter who you choose to be your God) is forgiveness. Rest assured if you have asked for forgiveness then you have recieved it. Now YOU have to forgive YOURSELF. I know that's easier said than done, I feel like a hypocrite just writing it. I still have not forgiven myself for the things in my past, what they did to my wife, what they did to my marriage, what they did to my relationship with God. But I know He has forgiven me, and that's all that matters.

As far as your XBF becoming irritated at your new found spirituality, it's probably fear. He's afraid that now your going to move on without him, that you have found something to replace him, that he cannot make you happy no matter what.

I still tell my wife all the time I want her to be HAPPY, no matter what the cost. I pray every day that it's me that makes her happy. But, if it comes right down to it, and it's not me that makes her happy, if it's someone or something else I can't say how I will deal with that. Your XBF may be at that bridge now, and unsure exactly how he's supposed to cross it. I'm guessing all along he's been telling you he wants you to find true happiness (and he does) but secretly inside he wanted you to find it with him.

Just my 2 cents worth, probably only worth 1 1/2 but you have helped me so much by being so strong I'd give you a quarter if I could <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Today is just the uphill side of your roller coaster, fight your way to the top and the butterflies will return, or you'll hit the plateau and just move forward. Either way, today is only today, and tomorrow is what you make it.

Take care Kily

Kily

I agree with Os, you need to forgive yourself, and sometimes it's just the hardest thing isn't it? Sometimes it all comes back, crashing over you what a complete and utter mess you have made of everything, what and who you have destroyed, and the guilt, sadness and pain is overwhelming.

Kily, look back on your posts on this thread, and see how far you've come, what a good person you are, and how strong you are becoming.

I have days where I just cry and cry about nothing or everything, and other days I feel confident and moderately happy. I miss H alot (it's a week today since our meeting, and we haven't spoken since), but I have to let go, stop the worrying, and work on me. And that's what you're doing so successfully.

Take care and wishing you well from London.
Lisa

Kily,

I would suspect that your exBF sees all of this. He sees the girl (yup girl <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> men see women as girls you know) he loved, grow and become exactly the person he always hoped she would be, but there is ssooooo much to overcome. He probably resents that this has happened now, rather than when HE was trying so hard. In someways it would be easier for him if you had stayed the way you were.

But, the reality of this situation is that you always had the good in you and he knew it. Your actions notwithstanding, he saw the good and couldn't get to it.

Kily, I think you need to address the difference between remorse and guilt. I may have said this to you before, but you need to carry remorse with you for what you have done, but you shouldn't carry the guilt any further. The purpose of guilt is to get someone to STOP the bad things they are doing. You did that, and you went a few steps further. You examined yourself deeply and made many many positive changes to bring out the girl your exBF knew was inside of you. Rejoice in what you have done. Don't let guilt get you down. It should really be gone.

The remorse on the other hand is a good thing. It says that you do know right from wrong. It says you have learned from your mistakes, and you carry this with you so that you won't make them again. So that you won't have to ever feel guilty again.

You have NOT failed Kily. You have learned, you have grown, and you have changed from a girl to a woman. You have learned what is important. How to value someone in your life. Some guy is going to be sooo lucky to find you. If were only 25 years younger and single, I would be interested in a woman such as yourself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Kily, you need to understand something. What you are going through is part of life. We make mistakes, we learn from them, we make new mistakes, we learn more. It is just the learning part of life that we all go through continously. You are no worse than anyone else. You are doing what we all did. We grow, learn, grow, learn, and we try to do it better the next time. That is what you have been and are doing. Relax, you are normal and you getting better and better all of the time.

God Bless,

JL

sparkle of tears on your cheeks
cleansing tears
surrendering tears
humble tears
tears of reconciliation
tears of naked wounds
tears that open your soul
to future wonderment
God's peace
God's love

[ February 16, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

ooops

[ January 17, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: o2bsane ]

When JL is giving his best to someone here ... I prefer to read his words, reflect on what he wrote, and learn.

JL's the best in my book!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

KILY,
I have to run as I have a big outing to go on today. I did want you to know I read your thread, and I'm thinking of you.

You are very lovable, and you will be loved again , of course. I know how you feel, exactly--my friend.

Thanks for inspiring me!!
H_P

[ February 16, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

I don't even remember WHY I started to fight for this in the first place.
Because you have that son together and you love him? Something like that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's funny, but now when I see him, I see how completely we both have changed. I went from being lost and empty to being somewhat focused, and complete, he is now the one that is changing his appearance and is so BUSY running that he will eventually collapse from the stress of it all.
Yes, you learned how to cope, and he is running. I have to think he will come out of this sometime and try to cope too. You have been wondering when, but now you are tired and its' hard to keep your good attitude up.

I am so sad that I finally realized how to love him, and I am willing to love him for WHO he is, and now he doesn't even want to see it.
So, how do you know that? He doesn't even know who he is, so why would you think he knows what he wants?

I am going dark now and I'm not sure what will happen. At this point, I can't live for someone that wishes I would disappear.
My personal opinion is not that he wants you to disappear, it is that he wishes you both could go back before all this happened and somehow make it work. We know it can't be done but that seems to be his wish. It looks to me like he is frustrated ( and it comes out as anger) because he doesn't know what to do. He is in the state of conflict. That means he cares, and you know that but you are tired.

Give it a rest, go dark if it will help YOU. He is flailing around trying to find his way, I would still give him pointers whenever he will take them, unless you are ready to look for someone else, and I don't believe you are.

You have it together better than many here, don't quit because it is hard. Think some more, take a rest, and keep after it.

SS

Kily,
If he truly didn't care he wouldn't call. I think Still Seeking is right, he's running, but isn't sure what he's running from or to. The fact that he calls means he cares. The anger is just his way of dealing with his pain.

If it would not have been for this site I would have reacted in the same way, I have no doubt; I have done it before. If W and I got into an arguement I would call 3-4 times just to rehash the arguement that was already done, or for no reason at all. Why? Because I wanted to hear her voice, no matter how mad at her I was at the time. And I wanted to know that SHE STILL CARED. I wanted her to know that I was still angry, that she still hurt me. And I wanted (needed) to know that she still Loved me and was trying.

This is just my opinion, could be wrong. Maybe it's a "Man" thing, I don't know. But I can say that I have felt this way in the past. You are on his mind right now, constantly. That's why he's calling.

Keep your chin up and do what YOU need to do for YOU. God Bless.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Dear Kily

Look, maybe I'm going out on a limb here, as I sometimes think I'm prone to do, but hey!!! I can't believe how RUDE he was. I can't believe he didn't thank you for the biscuits (let's get a bit of English in here to cheer you up), I can't believe how childish he was, I can't believe how ignorant he was that he couldn't just accept your good wishes for a safe journey. Call me old fashioned, but where an earth has this man's manners gone to.....

Kily, you and I have both been remorseful, expressed our deepest regrets for our poor choices and the devastation we have caused our loved ones. But his behaviour is unacceptable, and frankly, I think you should tell him.

It does sound like you need a break. Is there any news on the redundancy front? Might you be able to book some time out, even a long weekend somewhere, a change of scenery, anything that would help you find some peace?

Kily, I have come to realise over the last couple of days, that no matter what I do, if H is not willing to let go of some of his hurt, and stand still rather than run from the difficult issues of our M, there is nothing I can do. Except to work on me....

Thinking of you Kily, we all care you know.

Lisa in rainy London.

I'm just so lost as to how to get there. I NEED for him to be a partner in this. We all know that it simply isn't going to happen that way.......
I must be dumb, because I don't know that yet. I believe it won't happen today, but I don't know it won't work out in the next few years. I also believe you can't continue to put 200% of your self into it each day like you have been doing and that you need to take it easy and get some rest.

The acceptance of that is what has been hurting me so much over the last few days. Yes there is still guilt, but I am slowly overcoming this.
You are slowly overcoming it, and you started a long time ago. I believe it was JL that pointed out that X has just started processing things and it will take him some time. Now, I am not saying I know it will work, but as long as you still have feelings, and don't want to look around, you may as well keep working on it. But yes, as you say later, detach, and use some of your energy on .......say.......... finishing school. I never did see if you were going to quit work and do it???
Did I miss it somehow?

I hear his words "I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU, I HATE YOU", and then my own DS's words "What have you done? My daddy is gone. What have you done?" and I simply die all over again. How can you heal that kind of devastation?
I believe that is part of the price we pay for some of our mistakes. I don't know how to get out of that one. Someday you will heal, and the triggers will stop, but I don't know when or how. Even if you know that, you still have to live each day until it happens.

Kily, it is not so much the mistakes we make as it is how we react to them that determines who we are. (though by now you have learned that some things are more easily avoided than fixed later.) You are reacting correctly, and that will bring about happiness to you in Gods own good time. Have some faith. Have faith that you will be happy if you continue to do what is right. Have faith that God will bring you happiness if you continue to seek him. Have faith that even if you don't understand how it will happen, that it still will happen. Continue the good work you are doing until you know more - for right now you don't know.

I have faith in God, but I have a great deal of faith in you also.

SS

[ February 16, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,

I think Lisa hit on something you really need to consider. You need to set boundaries with regard to his behavior. You didn't originally and eventually it wore you down. You need to now. His outburst was very childish and really shouldn't be tolerated.

As for your courses, I supposs it makes sense to not go to school as much, but when the recession ends you want to be well placed and ready. Your courses should be interesting, although thermo is a strong statement that chemists should never be allowed to name anything. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I mean "entropy, enthalpy", what was wrong with heat,etc? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

E&M now there is a good course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Maxwell's equations are truely a thing of beauty and when you consider the time in which they were developed amazing.

You see, you are now talking about something I actually know something about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> If you have questions,let me know, but probably a marriage building forum is not the place to be discussing these tawdry topics. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hang in there and chill abit. Also think about the boundary issues. You two have a child and so contact will always be there, it needs to be civil.

God Bless,

JL

[ February 16, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
Sounds like you have a new plan.

[QUOTE] Remember I WAS the invisible girl for so long and he WAS my hero....
Wow do you sound like my wife! She keeps playing the song "Superman" by EMINEM. She says that's the male race...

[QUOTE] The last thing I want is for DS to learn that it is okay to treat mommy as if she were garbage....
You are breaking the cycle. I wish someone in my family would have done that, but I guess we have to pick up and carry on where others did not. I commend you for this, maybe the most important thing you are doing.

Sorry, no inspiring words of wisdom. Just encouragement and prayer...

[ February 16, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Hey Kily,
This was a good one, I had to sit and think about it for a while.
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I guess you just reach a point in your life where you know that no matter how much you want something, you have to accept that you can't MAKE it happen. It's now in higher hands than mine and I'm okay with this.
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I know what you mean. But that’s a VERY hard thing to do. I know I can’t make anything happen, but just letting go seems like an unbelievable option. I hope someday I’ll get to your point; I keep asking God for help, asking him to show me direction and give me strength, then I keep wanting to do my own thing.
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I have planted my seedlings in X's garden, and now it's time to step away and see how they grow. The funny thing is that when I planted these seeds, I must have dropped some because I am seeing the fruit from these plants in my own garden!
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Lol… isn’t that the way it’s supposed to work? Plan A is about YOU right?
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My healing process -
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Wow… I have to say I see many of these things in my wife, but I also see them in me. Maybe the healing process isn’t so much different on both sides of the fence. I have to say neither of us is as far along as you. I commend you, it looks like you are doing an excellent job with your recovery and your life.
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I asked him if he wanted to talk to a sadness doctor because I think that he might need an outlet. He said yes.
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I agree with you. As parents it’s very hard to admit that we can’t do everything, but the reality is that we can’t. Children are MUCH more perceptive than any of us give them credit for, yours is no exception. If X has a problem with it I would say “Tough”, it’s for the sake of your son and his future, not your X’s ego. I do have to say I can understand X’s point of view, I think it’s a male thing….. But, the welfare of your child comes first. Get him into some type of counseling, especially if he lost his brother too. It all goes back to breaking that cycle so he and his children will have a better life someday. If your X has big heartburn with it try to explain it like this: "If he broke his arm would you want me to give him asprin and put a band aid on it, or would you want me to take him to the hospital?" Instead of a broken arm he has a broken heart; can't see it, but it still needs fixing. May work, may not.
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Anyway - my optimism and hope have returned. The focus has changed a little, but I think that the light is in the right place now.
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That’s good. You had me worried there for a while. Rough days SUCK!! But the only thing that gets me through is the fact that I know the days are only as bad as I allow them to. And if I allow them to be bad I’m giving that MF (AKA OM) control over MY FAMILY and ME. THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN (not if I can help it). I control my life and how I feel. Yes, wife and others influence how I feel, but ultimately it’s up to me to make it or break it. Just a thought, that’s how I get through the rough ones. That, this site, and a WHOLE LOT of PRAYER!

[ February 16, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

They have a right to think and feel what they want, just as you do. If they seek happiness elsewhere, then they feel that it is necessary for them. You have that choice too, but chose a different path.
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This part I have come to grips with. Something along the lines of “If you love something let it go free, if it returns to you it is yours forever, if it doesn’t it was never yours”. The problem I’m having is turning everything over to God and letting go. I just can’t seem to do that.

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It HAS taught me to listen to the messages that I receive. I still find it really hard to obey.
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This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about!! I know what you mean here, wish I had an answer to that question, but unfortunately I don’t.

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I just worry that I am making too much out of the issue. Am I trying to force DS to talk to someone because I am feeling guilty about tearing his life apart?
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It’s like that “Gut Feeling” everyone talks about. If you think it’s right, then it’s right. YOU have to do what’s best for YOUR SON. Maybe he doesn’t need counseling, but let a professional counselor be the judge of that, that’s what they get paid for!!

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I can see this going so many ways, and to be honest, I am scared that the therapy will point to even MORE damage in me that I haven't addressed yet. One thought that does replay in my mind is the belief that I WAS the only one with issues. I keep thinking that my weaknesses HURT everyone, and that I don't deserve to have a family. this of course is my inner child, but that irrational fear is there.
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You have to be ready to address any issues that come up. When you get to that point you will know, but at least get some help for your son now. I know exactly what you mean by being the only one with issues. Since my wife’s IC told her she was fine I’ve been dealing with an unbelievable amount of guilt. I don’t agree with him, but the fact remains that it is a possibility. So, now I have to learn to deal with the fact that it was ME all along that DESTROYED our marriage, not her failing to deal with her past problems. That one hurts, but it’s a starting point for me to improve my marriage, my family, and myself.

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I believe that if DS is really feeling broken hearted, it may be the catalyst that DAD needs to really look at forgiveness instead of hatred
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You can’t know what others are feeling. And, you can’t change the way others feel. The only thing you can do is address the issues at hand, and take professional guidance on how to fix them. X’s hatred may very well be a catalyst for your son, but let a professional tell him that. If you tell him that it will only cause a greater divide and as you said “Make him hate you even more”. If he hears if from someone else, someone with HIS SON’S interests in mind it will come across much better than if he hears if from you; someone he perceives as having an ulterior motive. Make sense?

Hi Kily,
Hope you are doing okay this weekend.

It sounds sensible to take your son to counseling, based on what you've said here.

This hit home for me, when you said,
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I also find that GOD asks me to do things and I find it extremely hard to obey. I think I mentioned this, but I remember leaving for the airport for my last trip, and GOD kept telling me to turn around and go home. I didn't listen. <hr /></blockquote>I had so many 'signs' from God, before I actually met OM and continued on my path of destruction. One of our children was hospitalized briefly before I met OM in person. We had our pastor visit us there, in the hospital. I thought then, 'This should knock me to my senses." It didn't. Once when I snuck out to call OM, I ran into a wonderful employee at our church, near the phone booth. I thought, "This is a sign, from God...". I live in a huge metro area, and I rarely see a soul that I know. I ignored the reminder.

And , like you--I remember distinctly backing out of my driveway--looking at my house, as I drove off to finally meet him face to face. I thought, 'This will forever change your life." I then just went on my merry way, with a shrug. I was , in retrospect, so very confused and full of turmoil but yet I sought my own selfish medication.

So here we are now, trying to put it all together again. I always think of Humpty Dumpty!

BTW , loved your analogy about the seedlings, Kily. You're such a great writer!

Just know that I'm thinking of you. You've helped me so much.

Take care,
H_P

[ February 16, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
That sounds GREAT!! Sounds like you may have had a real breakthrough this weekend! I'm very happy for you. Funny though.... You keep commenting on how you and my wife could be the same person..
Well, my wife ALWAYS tells me "Your a big boy, you can take care of yourself." lol... Had to laugh at that one, just too much of a coincidence. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ February 16, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
Maybe it's a breakthrough, maybe not. But, he is noticing your changes, and he still has feelings there. That would tell me that he is struggling between his heart and his mind. His heart is telling him to go for it, his mind is telling him to run the other way. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I would say.

Funny... very similar to what I see my wife going through right now. She notices changes, even comments on some of them. But she still keeps talking about leaving.

I would say just continue on the road you are on. That's what's best for you and your son. If he decides to join you then all the better, if not then he will have missed out, not you.

I believe you will get the help you need when you need it.

Just don't give up when you have bad days.

SS

[ February 16, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
Your right, I do see things in my situation when I post with others. It helps me get a better understanding sometimes. And YOU have been a tremendous help. I only hope my wife comes around before I end up like your X. If you don't mind me asking when was it that he turned so cold?

Sounds like you guys keep taking baby steps; that's very good. My opinion stays the same; he's struggling with emotion and reason right now. Just keep doing what your doing, you'll make a difference one way or the other.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

[ February 16, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,

Calm down. This is just a bump. You were away from him for more than 6 months right? So give him the same time to adjust to the new you. At 6 months in a normal recovery the BS often starts to show anger. Why? I don't know, but the popular speculation is that at that point they know the relationship is probably going to make it and they need to let stuff out.

In your case it is different. I hope you read what I posted to MM. You will get an OPPORTUNITY as well. It may come in the form of someone else if your exBF decides to continue with his GF, or it may come with him. Please recall he had issues before all of this started, and all of this surely didn't help.

I suspect you are seeing/hearing some of his own internal struggles that really have less to do with you, than with him. He may find it convenient to vent AT you, but my bet is that he is struggling within himself. Let's face it, if he could magically forget everything that happened, he would have to be a different person to deal with you now. Your changes are going to force him to change from the man he was before all of this blew up. He may not be ready for that and may not be able to handle it.

We all grow at different rates and in different ways. There is no doubt you are growing rapidly right now. It probably scares him and also forces him to look at himself.

So have faith. The changes you are making are for you and for the rest of your life. They really are not for him.

Must go.

JL

[ February 16, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily Hello. You will move much closer, much quicker to the end of your trial when you move back in. It will definitely show that you are 100% commited to working towards restoration. I think sometimes-heck MOST times we allow for lifes eveyday rythum to keep the message of exactly how we feel and where we are with ourselves from being CLEARLY demonstrated to the other person. Kily, I believe you are now strong enough, odly enough by the process of humbly accepting who you are, to take this step. If you beg someone to believe that you've changed, ecspecially if you have given reason not to trust, they will inevitably be skeptical and pull back. If you demonstrate your new self through "letting go" not LBing and every now and then showing them-their interest is peaked. BUT. It will truly require you to live everyday with them, allow them to see the changes and benefit from them-this is the only way to ensure an ongoing trust. Do not worry about the obstacles that I'm sure seem so big, look rather to the opportunity. Proceed in a quietly confident manner and the rest WILL take care of itself--not might-WILL. I believe you are strong enough now to handle the answer that this move will lead to. By the way, when do you think would be the best time to begin the rest of your life free from guilt, free to show your love--accepted or not, to really begin to live-maybe for the first time. I thought so. God Bless.

I am ready to move in and have him hate me and blame me for everything.
-------------------------------------------------
OK, multi part question.
1) Is HE willing to let you move back in?
2) Are you sure this is what you want? This seems like a big step you say your willing to take. Honestly, I can’t give any advise other than make sure you are ready to weather the storm before you jump on the boat. You are going to encounter some KILLER waves along the way.

Are you sure you (or him for that matter) don’t need some more time? Again, just me throwing some things out, but I see the key as him giving you some sort of sign that he’s ready for that.

kily,

You have given me some good advice, so I feel I owe it you to return the favor, though I don't know how "good" this advice is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

If you are 100% willing to force a resolution AND don't care either way, then do it. As you know, I am not in that place yet.

Your are nearly a EE so you will understand when I say that the "AND" is the key to following this path, so to speak. See what I am saying?

m_t_d said it best in my most recent thread about "betting the house". Are you willing to do that?

Thoughts?

[ February 16, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily Are you reading my posts? I would like to speak to directly. If you are comfortable with this, tell me how to do this-I am not very site savvy. (As if you couldn't tell)

[ February 16, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I guess I'm ready to accept it either way. <hr /></blockquote>If you can take the words "I guess" out of there I am with you 100%. You know what's right for you. Hope for the best, expect the worst, right? Take care.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,

Is it spring fever over at your place? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am not sure about the moving in. But, I think you are right being in daily contact with him would help.

I guess my feeling is: If you feel this strongly about it and you are aware of the possible consequences and are willing to accept them, then... go for it.

God Bless,

JL

Kily,
Oh Kily, I read your thread to JL. I hope that doesn't make me an 'eavesdropper'. I feel very , very sad for you. I don't have much to say at this point, not at all. I have no words of wisdom, except that you've certainly tried hard. Please take care of yourself. But--remember, a ring is different than a marriage. This too, in time, may pass--with this woman.

Take care,
H_P

[ February 16, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
My heart and prayers go out to you; I truly fear the emotions and steps you are going through now. I have been praying for you all weekend.
Now, I want to say a few things, maybe I'll be off, but this is how I feel. I agree with JL that your X is/was so angry because he is questioning his decision. I agree with you that this is a rebound and he is clinging to something. I also agree that this will probably not work.
With that said, your anger is an emotional defense. He has hurt you, extremely bad, you are responding with the only thing you can do to protect yourself. Now, here I risk putting my foot in my mouth, but this is what I see and I feel that I have to say it. If you can, step back and look at the situation. You are responding with ANGER, the same way your X has been responding with ANGER. He reached out to you (McDonalds) and you shut him down, the same way you have been reaching out to him and he's been shutting you down.
I'm not saying you should keep kissing his butt, but just look at the similarities. I think your right in seeing your lawyer, and you have to do what's best for you and for your son. But, remember how you felt just last week; you were ready to marry this man but today you could bury him. Maybe it's time for plan B, before he completely drains your LB.
Again, I feel SO much for you right now. YOU WILL make it through this; it is only a ripple in the pond. YOU ARE STRONG. If you weren't you wouldn't have made it this far. Focus and try to vent your anger somewhere other than at X, that will not be healthy.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
-------------------------------------------------
What should I do? I can't control it and there's nothing that I can do to change the course of things.....but I also can't live for dreams anymore.
--------------------------------------------------
Again, I’m VERY new at this, and not as versed on MB principles as many others. But, it sounds like you’ve answered your own question. Your last post sounded a lot calmer, more in control, that’s where you need to be. I understand your desire to speak with OW, after all your son is involved in this. Have you told him what you want to talk to her about? Maybe that would help, maybe not. If he won’t agree to let you speak with her alone, will he be willing to be there when you speak with her? Again, if someone else is going to be in your son’s life it would seem to me that the 3 of you should sit down and come up with some type of plan for him. Again, I don’t know, I haven’t gotten to that point yet.

Back to what you are going to do now; do you plan on continuing your plan A, or are you going to move on to plan B? I sent you an e-mail earlier, hope you don’t mind.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
You know if you react out of anger it's going to be not a well balanced situation on any level, right? You know that. This situation has to be dealt with clarity of mind from all accounts and seeing has he is not operating from that level, you have to take on the responsibility for both, as unfair as it is. But reading your posts I think I can see you calming down and starting to realize that.

About him, well he is still where he has always been, nothing has changed in him for the last year or so. You have grown leaps and bounds, doesn't mean he can catch up Kily, no matter how it seems so practical and common sense like that it should. He might have to be where he is to grow to where you have gone. Does that make sense? This GF, she is not even a major factor in the whole thing because she is not serving any other function but keeping him emotionally where he has always been. I'm not meaning that to judge her, but you are right about God giving us certain challenges to help us grow and learn. Maybe she is his lesson to make him finally come to terms of "WOW, maybe I am not all I can be as a man, partner, human, soul". Maybe she is the catalyst for him to fall as you have fallen and learned throughout all this. So, learning comes to us in many different ways, some people have to walk more difficult paths and then others. One thing to remember, is maybe no matter what is done, said or worked on....this might just be where he is on his scale of learning and nothing can change that now, or tomorrow or in a few years, but he will learn, one way or another. As far as you are concerned I know that does not make it any easier for you but I think you understand a hell of alot more than he does about internal growth. JMHO.

But in the reality of the situation, as it stands now, you do have to consider the welfare of your son and what all factors surrounding that. Getting legal advice is the best for you, so you do know all your options. If you are paying half or most the mortgage, and it is the place you want to raise your son, than this matter has to be dealt with. But the main thing to all my babbling, is that ANY decision has to be balanced from the head and heart, not from emotions such as anger (which is fear as you know, and vulnerabiltiy). When your head/heart is balanced, the words and conditions around you will flow smoothly, at least that is what I have learned through the years on this earth.

I wish you well and I'm sorry if I kinda just jumped in. I have posted some to you, but was mainly just reading your posts until I had something to really say. Take Care.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
"In an illogical kind of way, that is SCARY because for me, it means that there's nothing more that I can do.....Does that make sense? It means that I REALLY have to let go..."

Of course it makes sense because you knew that as long as you kept working for the both of you it seemed to be the right thing. But there comes a time that you do realize, I have done all the work I possibly can and now I have to let go of the fact that no matter what I do it will not make H any wiser, healthier, aware...on any level than where he is right now.

So, it comes down to how to you want to go about providing the best for your son, and the patience that it will take in regards to H. Right now you can say with an open heart that you will be there for H, and that; I believe wholeheartedly, but if it continues that he wants to repeat the cycles forever, you will let go of that ideal too. But by that time you will have moved way past the point that you are reaching to be there to lift him. It will come from a different place altogether that has nothing to do with any emotional tie other than the father of your son. Let's hope he wakes up well before that and he figures what are the important issues in life.

I also know by reading your posts that you will make the right choices about any situation because of all the things you have learned throughout your ordeal. Take Care and I send you many blessings.

Kily,
OOPs meant to say this also:

Maybe letting go of the man he is today, will help him become the man he needs to be tomorrow.

Kily,
I don’t know why he doesn’t want you near her. Maybe he doesn’t want the 2 women he has feelings for to meet, maybe he’s afraid his deception on both ends will be brought out. I don’t know, only he does. My suggestion: Sit him down; come up with an agenda for the meeting focused on your son and how things will be handled. As far as your son “finding his way”; well that sounds VERY similar to what my wife is saying right now. THAT IS A BUNCH OF CRAP!!! It is them not thinking about their children, only about themselves. I would insist on this meeting for the sake of your son. Come up with a specific agenda, maybe he will agree to a very public meeting place.

I haven’t reached your point yet of realizing that no one can make you happy. I still think my wife is what makes me happy. But I seem to be in the minority with that opinion, my IC told me the same thing. But, the most important thing is that YOU are happy, and continue to be.

They will wake up and see each other for what the other is, a crutch. I don’t see this as the end Kily, I see it as a new beginning to a VERY hard and long road. They will not be happy together, and eventually they will realize that. It may be a very long time though, and he may never come around to realizing that he has to change to have a REAL relationship. I’m not saying that you should wait around and twiddle your thumbs, what I’m saying is I don’t think you should give up, I don’t see this as the end.

Vent all you want, that’s what the boards are for right? Don’t be angry because he is living your dream, he is not. If he was truly living a dream, and truly happy he would not be so angry and resistant. Your dream may not happen, that is something that you should take a look at. BUT, God’s dream for you will happen. It would be nice if they could coincide, but they don’t always do that.

--------------------------------------------------
All I ever wanted was a stable family life to a committed, wonderful man.....Why is that so much to ask for?
-------------------------------------------------
I have asked that question so many times myself (replace woman with man though). I’m afraid I haven’t found the answer yet. Why is it so hard to find someone who will love you back the way that you love them?

[ February 16, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

AH! Kily,

The journey continues. From what I know I agree with your lawyer. Your relationship with your exBF has been an unusual one in many ways, due to both or your issues.

You sound so much better today. I am so glad to hear it. You are doing well Young Grasshopper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If I were running your life. Your exBF would marry this GF and be very happy with her. You would continue to grow and meet a man with comparable abilities to yours. I think you have much more in you than you realize. You will come to see that no matter how this works you did the right thing by trying to get together with exBF and learning along the way.

You have done so well Kily, you really have.

God Bless,

JL

Kily,
This is lg, please read my latest post and give me some insight, I feel like I'm on this roller coaster ride.

Kily

I have been trying to catch up with your post for some time, and you keep jumping on so quickly it has been difficult to do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Firstly, I'm so sorry for you to hear that XBF and GF are to marry. It must have been such a kick in the gut for you. There's not much else I can say, except stay strong stay tough.

I think it was a gooooood thing to get to the Solicitor. I intend to do the same soon, just to know my rights and where I stand. It sounds like this has been a really positive move for you, and one that has helped clarify quite a few issues. Even though I am doing so much better, I sometimes get so bogged down with things, and it can be quite unnecessary. Good for you.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you in cold cold London today.

Stay strong, take care of you and the kids.
Lisa

[ February 16, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
Hey you sound MUCH better. I'm glad to hear things are starting to swing in your favor. Stay focused, I could be wrong but when he gets that letter he's gonna blow his top. You will need to be focused and prepared for that.

I'm glad to see you have a plan, and seem very happy about it. You deserve your happiness. Excellent move on getting the counseling included in the custody agreement; you never know placing that kind of pressure on OW may just show her what she's getting into. But, either way it's best for your son, KUDO's to you!!

Kily,
I answered your questions in my post, tell me what you think.

Kily,

I have been reading your thread and I am somewhat concerned about your sudden change of heart.
How can you be guilt free? You did serious damage to your H. You pushed him away until his love for you was destroyed. Now that he has found someone else you are guilt free. Come on. These sorts of situational morals are rediculous. Do you really think his open and honest steps of moving on with his life have earned him your vengance?

I think it would mean more to your H if you could actually be happy and supportive of him. He may need to see that from you in order to forgive you for what you have done. Try to be a truly good person here, you destroyed your marriage. You broke your marriage in a way he can't recover from. Please don't begrudge him his chance to build a life with another.

[ February 04, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: ConfusedJack ]

Kily,
I see that many wiser than me have answered you here, on this latest turn of events.

I do agree it was so wise of you to get an attorney. You need to learn more of your rights, and not be walked upon by anyone!

You are such a good woman, I like what JL said about you finding someone more compatible with you--I'm paraphrasing. You and I have to simply think in the same positive way.

I'm willing to wait longer, but if my exH had a girlfriend moving in, I don't think I'd be waiting too terribly long. Hope that makes sense.

AT this point, I don't know about you--it feels okay/not so bad to be alone, learning to know 'me' better.

H_P

[ February 16, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,

I did not intend to flame you, and I am sorry your BF lied to you during your attempts at recovery.

I just go the sense that you had a strong desire to punish him for moving on.

Hey kily,

Just wanted to let you know I am keeping tabs on your "saga".

Sounds like you are doing what you need to do. I am glad that you feel better these days. Take care.

-Luki

[ February 16, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,

Lately, I am always in the challenging mood. As you can see from my sig, I am facing my own moral challenges and it is not easy. I am in the process of tearing down all of my survival mechanisms, involving picking up and sleeping with lots of women. This is difficult work and I know the feelings of extreme guilt. I also know the temptation to look for ways to worm out of the guilt. Looking for any action or inaction by my wife or others to take some of the blame off me.

I know each situation is different and it is hard to measure betrayal. I doubt that anyone else on these boards has had as many affairs as I have, but I never left my wife and kids. I'll continue to give you little challenges when I feel I can be helpful. These will probably come off as strident since I have my own struggles and I can't seem to express them nicely.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

CJ,
I agree with Kily, I also think you have a very wonderful wife if she still believes in you and wants the marriage to work. You can read my post and see that I'm struggling with all the issues of lies and being dishonest to my wife. She is really struggling with staying in this marriage with me. She feels that she has no other option except to divorce me. The papers are ready to sign and I have been out of the house since Jan 3rd and have not seen my wife since the 12th, this is the longest we have gone since the 20 years we have been together. I hope and pray everyday that my wife can let me back in her life and we can have the best marriage around. Focus on the positives. DON'T EVER LIE. BE HONEST.

Kily,

It's nice to have some one you can really let loose on. I'll be sure to take advantage of that :-). You should feel free to do the same to me if it will help you through any of your issues.

LG

I hear you loud and clear. My wife has been amazing through the whole thing. She did negotiate another baby out of me, turns out to be two. We almost arrived at an understanding that I would just cheat, if I needed to. She said she could live with it if that made me happy and I was still a good dad and husband. Boy was that tempting but I decided that was not a real marriage and I would try to take the more difficult road.

W has expressed very little jealousy about the OW other than an occasional snide comment about what kind of women has sex with a man from a bar.

She is a pretty complex woman and has some of the boys will be boys attitude. She has a friend who cheated on her H and W thinks she is disgusting. I finally asked if I am disgusting but she just said it's different for a man, and that mens needs are different from womens. We are pretty happy right now, and I am surprising joyous about the arrival of 6 and 7. Two new little boys.

I usually read her to work out my own thoughts and keep myself on the right path. I post just what I am thinking since I do have a little voice in my head that urges me to cheat. This is a good place for that little voice to get the sh** slapped out if it.

CJ,
Kily has been a great person to listen to and I believe this is a great avenue to let your feelings go. I believe this is good for me because it will help me be honest with my wife. When we are both happy, we have the best marriage around, it is when we get in a rut that things become tough. I'm learning how to use her as a asset when things are rough and have her help me through it has I want to for her. I LOVE HER VERY MUCH.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

kily,

You're being quite fair. You have made your peace and that is all you can do. He has not. The time for guilt etc. has passed. You "have paid your debt" and you should not treat yourself as 2nd class. Was that a 2x4? Take care.

-Luki

[ February 07, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Luki ]

Kily,

Ok, let's get down to the details.

First, how long has he lived in that house with you paying 1/2 of the mortgage?

Second, did he do anything to improve the house that led to it's increased value,or was it just time and price escalation?

Third, how long has it been since he hasn't let you have your things or in the house?

Four, how many laws has he broken by doing this?

Now total all this up. Do you feel you have "raped" him? Or is it you?

My point, he will feel ANY CHANGE from what now exists as him getting raped. However, he KNOWS that he does owe you or he wouldn't have agreed to the 50%.

If you get all of this on paper, and you still feel that you shouldn't get 50%, take 10% of it and put it in a college fund for your DS and tell your exBF what you have done. In the long run that investment will help both you and your exBF because both of you will be off the hook for a lot of college tuition.

My experience is that people who have to retreat from a very good position, such as your exBF has, always feel they lost out on the deal when it is adjusted to anywhere near fair. Your exBF will also feel "raped" if you ask for 40%. Why? Because this isn't about the money. It is about what you did to him. He hasn't and maybe won't get around this for a long time.

If he is willing to pay this, then he knows what should have happened but didn't because he punished you. He may seek legal representation, and if negotiations continue, and you are willing to drop to 40% to get it over with then you do it and walk away happy.

Kily, you are not going to make friends in this deal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It can not be a win-win, when he felt he was owed everything. But, my guess is that he knows he was "raping" you financially by what he was doing.

Do your best to keep it cordial. But, remember the money you get will help you and your son. Just as the money he gets will help him and your son. So if you feel deep in your heart that he should get a bit more, put it to work for your son. It will help everyone.

Somethings to think about.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Please realize that given that he feels you broke up everything that you shouldn't profit from it. And frankly I would feel the same as he does. But, some if not alot of that appreciation would have been his had he refinaced when you left and bought you out of the house then. He did not because he got to pay 1/2 of the mortgage rather than ALL of it. This is partly HIS decisions.

Hi Kily

Firstly, well done for handling the situation with XBF so well.

You know, pure and simple, it's still the guilt. I wonder how long we have to live with it and whether we ever really get over it? You felt guilty and like you were "raping" him, because he actually conceded you were entitled to a settlement for yourself and DS. I think JL is right, put anything extra away for your son. Also remember, XBF will have the assistance of GF whereas you have to make all financial contributions to housing etc. yourself.

I found out today what H is entitled to in terms of buying him out of the house. I have decided to be fair, but also to protect my interests, what I put into the house etc. etc. because Kily, no one else will.

Are you being fair? Absolutely. Should you worry about XBF? Not at all.

Take care.
Lisa

Kily,
I am glad that you're pursuing your legal matters. It sounds like you're doing so very well emotionally.

Thanks for the giggles, when you mentioned the MB '2 X 4'!! You are very funny GF!!

I wish I could offer something wise, but I really can't. It sounds like you know what you're doing, and you have an attorney helping you. Quite frankly I despise any sort of financial decisions at all.

Please though, you do deserve in this situation, incredibly so. I was awe struck, a while back, when I read that you 've raised your two sons without child support from their fathers. You're much stronger than you think.

Take care, KILY

H_P
ps how is the Samsara doing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ February 16, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
Sorry, I've been away for a few days. A lot is happening for both of you right now, you both have a lot of processing to do.

You say your so confused, and wonder why he keeps dragging this out. You know him better than any of us do; take a step back, detach yourself from your emotions and evaluate what you see. Is this behavior normal for him? Does he always dwell on things, especially bad things? Does he appear to be truly happy with his life now?

Answer these questions and I believe you will find your answer. I have my own opinion, but I'll save that to see if you can figure this out. Keep your chin up, you have just changed roller coasters and this one has many of the same hills, valleys and twists as the last one; they're just in a different sequence than before.

Kily,

"What about my ...? When the sense of entitlement ends you two should be able to interact peacefully. It is the reason you need to work on this relationship and it is the reason that this relationship needs to end. AT least it needs to end on a romantic level.

It seems to have always been "What about my...?" Even when one of you was sacrificing a lot, it was about getting something from the other one. It is my fondest hope that the woman your exBF is engaged to is NOT like you. It is my fondest hope that you will run into a man that is NOT like your exBF.

You need a mature relationship, and such a relationship does NOT entail sacrifice to GET something: affection, love, consideration, or commitment. Those are given because the other WANTS to give them. They are received as the most precious gift that they are. Happiness is taken care of by the person seeking the happiness and shared with the person in your life. It is NOT created by this person.

What the other person should be doing, is sharing your life with you, and enjoying your happiness and your presence in their life.

It goes without saying they should be strong enough to help you through the hard parts of life as well.

So there you go, you have JL's own vision of what a marriage should be. I am sure there are others. But, it always starts from within.

Kily, your search for yourself, your attempts to rebuild this relationship have been extremely helpful to you. I think you know that. It can be seen better from the outside. I strongly suspect that once all of this is settled, your exBF is happy in his new relationship, your son's life settles down, you will find the type of person you need and want in your life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am confident of that.

So lose the "What about my ...?" It isn't very becoming and obviously not very productive. It is time you both moved beyond this stage of your evolution.

Have confidence Kily. You will do very well in your life.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Kily,

Look , I could be wrong. My gut instinct reply is that he's reacting in anger because you're FINALLY asking for what is only fair here. You were, for far too long, satisfied to let him walk on you financially due to the fact that he knew you felt guilt over your previous actions. He also was unfair with you, I feel, by never marrying you. You deserved it, Kily.

I simply wouldn't respond at all to his email. Let him sit and think about things, and calm down. You have jumped through hoops to try and please this man, and make things up to him. Let it be, for now. I never get responses from my emails to exH, and it's not pleasant at all. Let your xBF sit a bit too with his feelings-as the rest of us do. ( I don't mean to sound vindictive, no no...just honest) It's not good for you to be at his beck and call as far as responding to emails, etc.

And, when you feel like you've waited long enough- reply as you feel it's best. ExH and I completely spoke directly, without lawyers doing that. It worked for us very well--we felt we were civil enough to do that. If you feel your XBF can be civil AND fair, then you can interact directly about things. Otherwise, let the attorney handle him.

Sorry, I am speaking directly as I see it, Kily.

Take care,
H_P

Kily,
How are you doing?

[ February 16, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
I'm no expert, but I see many similarities between your X and my behavior (former behavior that is).

1. Is this behavior normal for him?
I suppose I would have to answer yes. He is the type of person to hold a grudge, be vindictive, and ounishing if things do not go his way.

2. Does he dwell on things? I would say YES, but I was MORE guilty of that than he. This is a behavioral pattern that changed when I learned to LET GO.

3. Does he appear to be truly happy now? This is hard to answer because I have such limited contact with him. In MY experiences with him, he seems VERY troubled, VERY angry, and unhappy. This magnifies when I am happy, upbeat, or sharing some deep thoughts about my growth with him.

These are all things my IC pointed out as being Obsessive Compulsive and Narcisistic. This is probably not something he even realizes, I never did. And, it is not something he can change until he does realize it, and WANTS to change it. Some other things to ask: What is his favorite food? Does he always order the same thing at a resturant? What is his favorite candy? Can he eat just one, or does he eat several at a time? Does he smoke or drink? Can he have just 1 cig/drink or does he have to have more than 1? Does he continue to bring up bad things even after you feel they have been resolved?

His calling and reminding you of things may be OC as well, or it could be out of true concern. Either way, if it bothers you it's a LB and he should know it.

As far as him being tormented right now, more than likely he is. Again, JMHO he is torn now between you and this OW. He sees your changes, but is unsure if they are real, if he can trust you, if he wants to trust you, and if he even likes this new person you have become. I'm not in any way suggesting that you should wait around for him, or continue to be a doormat. He obviously has some issues that HE needs to work out before you can ever even consider a R again, or even be friends.

Thanks for asking about me, I'm doing ok. Found out many of the things I "Thought" weren't actually true, just my imagination. I've also started on AD's which is helping me sleep. Everything is still the same, I'm just in a little more control of myself.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily,
JMHO until he realizes he has these issues he will never change, and NEVER be happy with ANYONE. Unfortunately it won't help for you to point them out, in fact it would more than likely just make him angrier. He has some real issues that he needs to address if he ever wants to be happy; you don't need to be around until he does.

Again, I'm no expert, just relating things from my experiences. All of those traits are what my IC explained as Obsessive Compulsive (OC)and some of them are Narcissistic traits. I can tell you that someone who suffers from these disorders (I'm not saying he does, but he displays traits associated with them) is in constant termoil with themself. Nothing is ever right, nothing is ever good enough, nothing can bring the peace and happiness that everyone desires. Bottom line, depression sets in and will never leave until treatment is sought.

I feel for you and your son. But I can say that I feel for your X too. Not saying that you deserve the pain he's putting you through right now, but he doesn't know anything else. I wish I could say something that would help, but unfortunately I don't have any "words of wisdom". I'll continue to pray for you and your family.

[ February 16, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: kily ]

Kily
Thanks for your response on my thread. I'll comment on yours later on, when I have privacy.

Thinking of you,
H_P

Ps thanks for the Valentine's Day wishes. How was yours?

Kily,

You need to talk to your lawyer. Here is why. This IS NOT ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS FOR HIM. It is about breaking the control he has over you. The more you differ, the longer he only pays half of the mortgage. What are you going to do when he marries her and brings into the house and you STILL own 1/2 of it? Answer me that question.

Kily, this is business. You are confusing it with your feelings. He is NOT going to settle this without lawyers or he would have already. Just to get rid of the woman the hurt him so. He didn't do that. He has a very sweet deel and he isn't going to let go of it.

It isn't his call whether lawyers are involved or not. If you want out, he has two options, buy you out as you wished, or see a lawyer and let the fighting begin. It is NOT his call.

I suppose you could move in. I know for sure I would remove my stuff from there if I wasn't living there. Then he either settles up or the house goes on the market, or he goes to court.

You should talk to him ONCE. Tell him you want out of his life NOW. Because frankly until you get out of his life, you don't have a chance of ever being in it. My personal opinion is that the break must be clean and complete before he will ever see you in any other light than he does. He needs to address his issues and he won't as long as he has you to blame.

Young Lady, quit the romantic feelings stuff (stern face inserted here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and get with the program. You have a life to lead, several children to help raise, and your exBF is NOT contributing to these very important goals by his OWN choice. He has chosen another woman. That woman was foolish enough to agree.

Trust me on this Kily, you don't want to be the woman he is engaged to. You really really don't. I hope he is happy, and I hope she is happy, but I'm telling you, you wouldn't be in the circumstances of their marriage IF it happens.

Get out of his life anyway you can and do it now. Then if there is anything there, or it "is meant to be", it has a chance to be.

This is business, and it is about your son, don't be confusing feelings up in something that must be done. I am very seriousl about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL - Again many thanks to you.

I am intending on continuing the presence of the lawyer. For me, it is my way of protecting myself from guilt trips, anger trips, and as you stated -control trips.

I'm not so certain if I even want to sit and talk with him on the issues becauase there seems to be NOTHING really to talk about. What is the point? So he can try to convince me to settle for 25%? Truthfully, I think he LIKES status quo...Does he believe that she will want all of my stuff there when she moves in and that I will quietly dissappear? That will happen once the mortgage is signed...

He called me out of blue on Saturday night to see if I waned to meet him and DS at Chuck E Cheese so we could "talk" about the issues! My response to this was a "no" because I felt that this was an inappropriate setting for this kind of discussion. Plus, He was giving me no notice of any kind! It was either "do this now, or not at all!" This of course really hurt me because I would have given anything to spend time with them. I simply felt that it was a ploy to get me to back off from my current plan.

My request was to set a time when DS would NOT be present where we could sit and seriously discuss this. Does anyone think that this is an out of line request? I felt that such a public place with all of the chaos going on would be counter-productive to reaching some sort of resolution. Or was this a ploy by him to see if I was still willing to jump through hoops to be with him?

Did I miss out on an opportunity here? I keep kicking myself, thinking that it could have been a healing event.

I have been avoiding as much contact with him as I can. He pointed this out when he extended the invitation. His opinon was that I'm not giving him a chance to even get a word in edgewise...Maybe it's because I'm firm in wanting to settle all of this and move forward already.

At the end of this week, I intend on notifying him in writing that he needs to either see my lawyer and have this settled, or I will be moving in. I need to be forceful to ensure that he will carry through with his verbal commitment.

This is SO scary.

Kily,
I won't pretend to know much about the legal issues. I have always disliked those sorts of wranglings, and I don't know have good advice there.

I wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you. You're right on the Chuck E Cheese thing. Good grief, I can't even barely hear myself think there. You need to discuss this stuff without DS around.

Perhaps it's good that you're unavailable to him now. It might make him see what he's missed out on, all this time.

I don't think I'd dream of moving in there, at all..by the way. I'm Putting the legal stuff aside.) Do you want this for your son? You moving in, and you and his dad at such great odds. Just a thought.

Take care dear one,
H_P