<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

CJ,
I agree with Kily, I also think you have a very wonderful wife if she still believes in you and wants the marriage to work. You can read my post and see that I'm struggling with all the issues of lies and being dishonest to my wife. She is really struggling with staying in this marriage with me. She feels that she has no other option except to divorce me. The papers are ready to sign and I have been out of the house since Jan 3rd and have not seen my wife since the 12th, this is the longest we have gone since the 20 years we have been together. I hope and pray everyday that my wife can let me back in her life and we can have the best marriage around. Focus on the positives. DON'T EVER LIE. BE HONEST.

Kily,

It's nice to have some one you can really let loose on. I'll be sure to take advantage of that :-). You should feel free to do the same to me if it will help you through any of your issues.

LG

I hear you loud and clear. My wife has been amazing through the whole thing. She did negotiate another baby out of me, turns out to be two. We almost arrived at an understanding that I would just cheat, if I needed to. She said she could live with it if that made me happy and I was still a good dad and husband. Boy was that tempting but I decided that was not a real marriage and I would try to take the more difficult road.

W has expressed very little jealousy about the OW other than an occasional snide comment about what kind of women has sex with a man from a bar.

She is a pretty complex woman and has some of the boys will be boys attitude. She has a friend who cheated on her H and W thinks she is disgusting. I finally asked if I am disgusting but she just said it's different for a man, and that mens needs are different from womens. We are pretty happy right now, and I am surprising joyous about the arrival of 6 and 7. Two new little boys.

I usually read her to work out my own thoughts and keep myself on the right path. I post just what I am thinking since I do have a little voice in my head that urges me to cheat. This is a good place for that little voice to get the sh** slapped out if it.

CJ,
Kily has been a great person to listen to and I believe this is a great avenue to let your feelings go. I believe this is good for me because it will help me be honest with my wife. When we are both happy, we have the best marriage around, it is when we get in a rut that things become tough. I'm learning how to use her as a asset when things are rough and have her help me through it has I want to for her. I LOVE HER VERY MUCH.

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

kily,

You're being quite fair. You have made your peace and that is all you can do. He has not. The time for guilt etc. has passed. You "have paid your debt" and you should not treat yourself as 2nd class. Was that a 2x4? Take care.

-Luki

<small>[ February 07, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Luki ]</small>

Kily,

Ok, let's get down to the details.

First, how long has he lived in that house with you paying 1/2 of the mortgage?

Second, did he do anything to improve the house that led to it's increased value,or was it just time and price escalation?

Third, how long has it been since he hasn't let you have your things or in the house?

Four, how many laws has he broken by doing this?

Now total all this up. Do you feel you have "raped" him? Or is it you?

My point, he will feel ANY CHANGE from what now exists as him getting raped. However, he KNOWS that he does owe you or he wouldn't have agreed to the 50%.

If you get all of this on paper, and you still feel that you shouldn't get 50%, take 10% of it and put it in a college fund for your DS and tell your exBF what you have done. In the long run that investment will help both you and your exBF because both of you will be off the hook for a lot of college tuition.

My experience is that people who have to retreat from a very good position, such as your exBF has, always feel they lost out on the deal when it is adjusted to anywhere near fair. Your exBF will also feel "raped" if you ask for 40%. Why? Because this isn't about the money. It is about what you did to him. He hasn't and maybe won't get around this for a long time.

If he is willing to pay this, then he knows what should have happened but didn't because he punished you. He may seek legal representation, and if negotiations continue, and you are willing to drop to 40% to get it over with then you do it and walk away happy.

Kily, you are not going to make friends in this deal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It can not be a win-win, when he felt he was owed everything. But, my guess is that he knows he was "raping" you financially by what he was doing.

Do your best to keep it cordial. But, remember the money you get will help you and your son. Just as the money he gets will help him and your son. So if you feel deep in your heart that he should get a bit more, put it to work for your son. It will help everyone.

Somethings to think about.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Please realize that given that he feels you broke up everything that you shouldn't profit from it. And frankly I would feel the same as he does. But, some if not alot of that appreciation would have been his had he refinaced when you left and bought you out of the house then. He did not because he got to pay 1/2 of the mortgage rather than ALL of it. This is partly HIS decisions.

Hi Kily

Firstly, well done for handling the situation with XBF so well.

You know, pure and simple, it's still the guilt. I wonder how long we have to live with it and whether we ever really get over it? You felt guilty and like you were "raping" him, because he actually conceded you were entitled to a settlement for yourself and DS. I think JL is right, put anything extra away for your son. Also remember, XBF will have the assistance of GF whereas you have to make all financial contributions to housing etc. yourself.

I found out today what H is entitled to in terms of buying him out of the house. I have decided to be fair, but also to protect my interests, what I put into the house etc. etc. because Kily, no one else will.

Are you being fair? Absolutely. Should you worry about XBF? Not at all.

Take care.
Lisa

Kily,
I am glad that you're pursuing your legal matters. It sounds like you're doing so very well emotionally.

Thanks for the giggles, when you mentioned the MB '2 X 4'!! You are very funny GF!!

I wish I could offer something wise, but I really can't. It sounds like you know what you're doing, and you have an attorney helping you. Quite frankly I despise any sort of financial decisions at all.

Please though, you do deserve in this situation, incredibly so. I was awe struck, a while back, when I read that you 've raised your two sons without child support from their fathers. You're much stronger than you think.

Take care, KILY

H_P
ps how is the Samsara doing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily,
Sorry, I've been away for a few days. A lot is happening for both of you right now, you both have a lot of processing to do.

You say your so confused, and wonder why he keeps dragging this out. You know him better than any of us do; take a step back, detach yourself from your emotions and evaluate what you see. Is this behavior normal for him? Does he always dwell on things, especially bad things? Does he appear to be truly happy with his life now?

Answer these questions and I believe you will find your answer. I have my own opinion, but I'll save that to see if you can figure this out. Keep your chin up, you have just changed roller coasters and this one has many of the same hills, valleys and twists as the last one; they're just in a different sequence than before.

Kily,

"What about my ...? When the sense of entitlement ends you two should be able to interact peacefully. It is the reason you need to work on this relationship and it is the reason that this relationship needs to end. AT least it needs to end on a romantic level.

It seems to have always been "What about my...?" Even when one of you was sacrificing a lot, it was about getting something from the other one. It is my fondest hope that the woman your exBF is engaged to is NOT like you. It is my fondest hope that you will run into a man that is NOT like your exBF.

You need a mature relationship, and such a relationship does NOT entail sacrifice to GET something: affection, love, consideration, or commitment. Those are given because the other WANTS to give them. They are received as the most precious gift that they are. Happiness is taken care of by the person seeking the happiness and shared with the person in your life. It is NOT created by this person.

What the other person should be doing, is sharing your life with you, and enjoying your happiness and your presence in their life.

It goes without saying they should be strong enough to help you through the hard parts of life as well.

So there you go, you have JL's own vision of what a marriage should be. I am sure there are others. But, it always starts from within.

Kily, your search for yourself, your attempts to rebuild this relationship have been extremely helpful to you. I think you know that. It can be seen better from the outside. I strongly suspect that once all of this is settled, your exBF is happy in his new relationship, your son's life settles down, you will find the type of person you need and want in your life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am confident of that.

So lose the "What about my ...?" It isn't very becoming and obviously not very productive. It is time you both moved beyond this stage of your evolution.

Have confidence Kily. You will do very well in your life.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Kily,

Look , I could be wrong. My gut instinct reply is that he's reacting in anger because you're FINALLY asking for what is only fair here. You were, for far too long, satisfied to let him walk on you financially due to the fact that he knew you felt guilt over your previous actions. He also was unfair with you, I feel, by never marrying you. You deserved it, Kily.

I simply wouldn't respond at all to his email. Let him sit and think about things, and calm down. You have jumped through hoops to try and please this man, and make things up to him. Let it be, for now. I never get responses from my emails to exH, and it's not pleasant at all. Let your xBF sit a bit too with his feelings-as the rest of us do. ( I don't mean to sound vindictive, no no...just honest) It's not good for you to be at his beck and call as far as responding to emails, etc.

And, when you feel like you've waited long enough- reply as you feel it's best. ExH and I completely spoke directly, without lawyers doing that. It worked for us very well--we felt we were civil enough to do that. If you feel your XBF can be civil AND fair, then you can interact directly about things. Otherwise, let the attorney handle him.

Sorry, I am speaking directly as I see it, Kily.

Take care,
H_P

Kily,
How are you doing?

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily,
I'm no expert, but I see many similarities between your X and my behavior (former behavior that is).

1. Is this behavior normal for him?
I suppose I would have to answer yes. He is the type of person to hold a grudge, be vindictive, and ounishing if things do not go his way.

2. Does he dwell on things? I would say YES, but I was MORE guilty of that than he. This is a behavioral pattern that changed when I learned to LET GO.

3. Does he appear to be truly happy now? This is hard to answer because I have such limited contact with him. In MY experiences with him, he seems VERY troubled, VERY angry, and unhappy. This magnifies when I am happy, upbeat, or sharing some deep thoughts about my growth with him.

These are all things my IC pointed out as being Obsessive Compulsive and Narcisistic. This is probably not something he even realizes, I never did. And, it is not something he can change until he does realize it, and WANTS to change it. Some other things to ask: What is his favorite food? Does he always order the same thing at a resturant? What is his favorite candy? Can he eat just one, or does he eat several at a time? Does he smoke or drink? Can he have just 1 cig/drink or does he have to have more than 1? Does he continue to bring up bad things even after you feel they have been resolved?

His calling and reminding you of things may be OC as well, or it could be out of true concern. Either way, if it bothers you it's a LB and he should know it.

As far as him being tormented right now, more than likely he is. Again, JMHO he is torn now between you and this OW. He sees your changes, but is unsure if they are real, if he can trust you, if he wants to trust you, and if he even likes this new person you have become. I'm not in any way suggesting that you should wait around for him, or continue to be a doormat. He obviously has some issues that HE needs to work out before you can ever even consider a R again, or even be friends.

Thanks for asking about me, I'm doing ok. Found out many of the things I "Thought" weren't actually true, just my imagination. I've also started on AD's which is helping me sleep. Everything is still the same, I'm just in a little more control of myself.

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Kily,
JMHO until he realizes he has these issues he will never change, and NEVER be happy with ANYONE. Unfortunately it won't help for you to point them out, in fact it would more than likely just make him angrier. He has some real issues that he needs to address if he ever wants to be happy; you don't need to be around until he does.

Again, I'm no expert, just relating things from my experiences. All of those traits are what my IC explained as Obsessive Compulsive (OC)and some of them are Narcissistic traits. I can tell you that someone who suffers from these disorders (I'm not saying he does, but he displays traits associated with them) is in constant termoil with themself. Nothing is ever right, nothing is ever good enough, nothing can bring the peace and happiness that everyone desires. Bottom line, depression sets in and will never leave until treatment is sought.

I feel for you and your son. But I can say that I feel for your X too. Not saying that you deserve the pain he's putting you through right now, but he doesn't know anything else. I wish I could say something that would help, but unfortunately I don't have any "words of wisdom". I'll continue to pray for you and your family.

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>