If you were following my post last week, you'll recall that I was very upset to receive an email from my H that said, "Wanna F***?" So I sent him an email telling him how hurtful and disrespectful that was. One thing I said in the email was, "If you want to be in any kind of relationship with me, I need you to treat me better than doing things like asking me in an email, "WANNA F***" I also said, "But really, after all that we have shared together, even in light of the selfish and hurtful things I've done, I don't know how you can live with yourself treating me this way. Does it make you feel good? I have real difficulty imagining that it does." I know he read it because, as it turned out, he hadn't had a chance to get to his email yet when he dropped by to hand me some mail, so I had him sit down at the computer and read it. He wouldn't reply to it, he mocked what I wrote by reading it out loud in a sing-song voice, and the only part he made a direct response to was the final sentence,"I miss the kind, gentle, loving, sensitive and even romantic John that I fell in love with, is he still around?" He said that no, he is not still around, he is long gone. That visit lasted 10 minutes, because I was on my way out the door.

So since then, he has called me twice late at night (after 10:30, when I've already been in bed and asleep) and the first thing he asked both times was, "Do you want to come over and have sex?" I said no both times, and he hung up quickly both times.

What the heck is wrong with this man? Did my email about respect just encourage him to be more disrespectful? Did he figure out that it was a way to make me mad and drive me away?

I tell you, I have reached an odd sense of peace this week. I know I am not willing to let him treat me like this anymore. I am not going to go on being his sex-toy. If he doesn't want more than secret sexual rendez-vous, then I don't want to be with him. He has so much that he needs to overcome, deal with, and learn about himself, and he's not willing to go to counselling. He's emotionally abusive now, he was before my A's, I don't see him changing. I think I've pretty much given up on him, unless he does a 180 and starts pursuing me. Life is short and I deserve better treatment than this.

So if you were following my story, or if you just want to put your 2 cents worth in, do you think he is trying to drive me away now, or what?

Jen

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

IMVHO, I think he is hurting and acting out in the only way he knows how. He needs to learn new ways to act out which he could learn by counseling or coming to MB.

Sorry for all you've been through Jen, you DO deserve to be treated better and I'm glad you are coming around to thinking that same way.
DB

Jen I'm so sorry that your situation with your H has gotten worse. I commend you for having enough self respect to tell him NO to his cruel e-mails. If he sends you anymore disgusting e-mails, send him a reply that if he keeps this up, you will be sending copies of his e-mails to all his family members for them to judge for themselves who is playing cruel games with whom.

I get the feeling that he wants to agravate you to the point where you will throw in the towl and file for divorce. This could be so that he can turn around and play the martyr to his family by telling them that you have filed for divorce because you no longer love him and wanted to be free to persue other men.

You may want to consider the wisdom of going dark and not having any contact with him until he starts treating you with respect and makes it known that he wants to rebuild the M.

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

he knows that by saying those things to you, you get upset. he's pushing the buttons that make you mad.

try to not sound upset when he says these things and he'll stop. ignore the emails and when he phones you, just calmly say "no thanks".

the madder you get, the more he'll do it, for whatever reason he's doing it.

TMCM - I've already saved that email, in case I ever feel the need to forward it to anyone. The thought certainly crossed my mind.

Indeed, marytr boy is probably hoping to get me to file for Dv so he can look good to his family and the world. Tough luck, he's going to have to do the filing, even if I give up on this marriage. He's the one that asked for the Dv in the first place.

jack - I think you are all too right. If I keep giving him a big reaction, he'll keep it up.

I think I'm just going to leave it alone (not intentionally contact him to tell him I've had it with this crap), and just calmly say "no" everytime he contacts me and asks the same thing.

I tell you my love bank account is almost closed there have been so many withdrawals. I can't even stand to look at my H's picture now I'm so disgusted with him.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>"I miss the kind, gentle, loving, sensitive and even romantic John that I fell in love with, is he still around?" He said that no, he is not still around, he is long gone.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, I think this is your answer.

With my disclaimers from your other post, I recommend you Plan B him. Cut him off totally until he "finds" the original John, otherwise you have no interest in the current John. This is not the John you married, but you believe the real John and the real Jen can be put back together again.

Isolate yourself by writing a pseudo Plan B letter and tell him to stay away from you completely until he's ready to work on the marriage - just as if he is the one in a current affair. I don't think it will be as effective if you only cut him off some, e.g., sexually. He needs the Full Monty, take me all or take me none tough love treatment. JMHO.

WAT

WAT - My one fear with that approach is exactly what TMCM commented on. That if I plan B him (cut him off completely), he may just use that as an excuse to further his martyrdom.

However, I will take some time to mull this all over. No more snap decisions in my life! Perhaps the one big lesson I've learned through all of this mess is to take time to decide what I want to say and do, never make quick decisions based on emotion.

I typed up a plan B letter of sorts for John a week ago. It was a good vent, but nothing I can send without a lot of editing. It's too long overall. I think he needs a short note or email, that says something like,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are not acting like the John I married. You are treating me disrespectfully. I do not just want to be your sexual companion. Until you are willing to treat me with as much respect as you would afford a good friend, I don't want to be in contact with you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I'm off to work,

Jen

Yes, TMCM has a valid point. It could come down to a conclusion that he's gonna play the martyr no matter who files or who does what. I think unless he comes out of his funk, he's gonna milk his "victim" status for a long time to come. But I also think that you've done as much as you can - and then some - to allow him to heal and recover his pride. You've more than convinced me that you've shown your worth and recovery. Not that we should be keeping score, but it's to the point for me that I see his current betrayal of you as far worse than yours of him.

WAT

Jen,

I think you have to look at that e-mail that you sent and realize it was chock full of LB/s, blame, and challenges....

I don't think he knows any other way to respond except defensively...

I am not saying this to hurt you....by any means...and I know that in your perception the email was your attempt to reach past this superficial battle...BUT in reality and what he probably heard is how bad he is...and how he does this wrong and that...so if that's how you view him...why should he not just continue in this same vein???

I don't think he's trying to drive...I think he's been hurt and trying to hurt you back...NOT an excuse...not justifying his behavior...just defining it...
remember that often when the male in a relationship has an affair the female spouse is more torn up over the emotional connection and energy spent ...while a betrayed male feels the biggest afront and hurdle to get over is physical acts of infidelity...
He is hurting you back using perhaps the "tool" that hurt him most...sex...

Again I encourage to detach from your emotional baggage and weight that you apply to his sexual come ons...some spouses hound over different emotional needs/buttons...for example what if every time he spoke with you he harrassed you about something else...when you gonna lose weight?? (just an example)...when you gonna clean the house better...when you gonna fill in the blank..how can you prove to be trustworthy..etc...
Don't relate his sexual taunts to his and your true sexual intamacy...it is just his MO right now to get your attention...

And not to gasp...disagree with WAT,,,(I can't believe I would ever disagree with him...

I suggest Plan A with clear boundaries that every time he attempts to bring sex into this relationship you cut contact politely with that interaction......try to meet needs
I think you need to "make up" for the email...not that He needs to know this...but if you Plan b now with the email full of things he needs to do...should do...and all he hears is blah blah blah...Jen's so good and I am the bad one...but she cheated on me...etc...martyr city baby...

And Jen...this stems from no agenda of mine that you as the WS you must grovel, plead and beg..or anything like that...

You must rise above his childish behavior and teach him the real lessons you have learned...

You know...we all bring different views to the table...and only you know what you feel inside..and what the right path is that you can live with...
much peace to you Jen...
ARK

*golf clap for ark^^*

I always shake my head in disbelief when I think of your story.

I have to lean towards ark^^ on this one.... Plan A is not being a doormat... it's meeting the needs of your spouse, with some tough boundaries - especially in your situation... but truly demonstrating what he is RISKING LOSING with his horrible behavior....

From Harley's Plan A/B explanation....

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But what about marital separation when an affair is not the issue. In your letter, you did not indicate why you had separated. It may have been for reasons other than infidelity.

In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.

So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation. From your letter, it sounds as if you are moving in that direction, and you simply need to know when it would be the right time to move back together. And you may want to know more about full marital recovery after you have ended your separation.

The four rules to recovery that I recommend after an affair are marital rules that every couple should be following. So they should form the basis for any plan for recovery after a separation. Since the four rules cover every conceivable problem that married couples face, they would address the issue that led to your separation. If you were to follow these four rules as part of your plan for recovery, I guarantee you that you will not only eliminate the problems that led you to separate, but you will also resolve many other conflicts that have prevented you from having a successful marriage.

I encourage you and your husband to make a commitment to follow the Four Rules for a Successful Marriage: Care, Protection, Honesty and Time, and once the commitment is made, end your separation and begin a marriage that will last a lifetime. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Couple of things about the email. On the one hand I thought it was good. It laid out how his treatment was affecting you. However by you being there while he read it diminished the impact of the words. In front of you he is not going to back down. So when forced to interact about his behavior he becomes defensive and hateful. Nothing you say is going to have a magic affect on him. He is not going to break down, and he is not going to apologize. You are chiseling away at granite here. You need to make little cracks in his exterior. No one wants to be reminded of their bad behavior. You could have sent him an email that said "sky is blue today." he would have acted patronizing like nothing you say matters since you were standing right there, pushing him to it.

His unwillingness to read it prior to you asking him to tells me that he still does not want to face this thing head on. He knows you have contacted him before via email about other issues that were non relationship. Did this one have a subject that indicated otherwise or none at all?

Is he pushing you away...NO. He is punishing you. He is sharing the pain. One thing is interesting though...he did in a minute way heed your message in the email. He doesnt say "Want to F***?" even though that is still his message. Small but interesting...if he were only taunting you he would continue to use the vulgar phrase. He is a person who is living only in the moment. I truly do not think he is thinking clearly enough to have formulated an elaborate plan to drive you away and make himself the martyr. He wants to punish you and punish himself because he hates the man this happened to...the sweet, caring, romantic man. He wouldnt need more than he already has to play the poor me pity party with his family if that was his intent. You cheated, they know, if he can't stay married to you they wouldnt blame him.

His reaction to an email reminds me of the reaction of an errant child being caught in the act of disobedience. They may be completely wrong, they may know it but it is outrageous to them that they are being forced to face it. Hence a huge fit ensues. He has issues.

In the beginning I contemplated the intimacy issue. At first I thought it was a risk but maybe it was a way to rebuild with him. I do not think it was a mistake however I think it is an aspect that should be off the table for now. He will be forced to make some sort of move...whether it be positive or negative. Right now he is in a holding pattern. His behavior is not justified. Do not believe him when he says that the man you married is long gone. It is the only person deep down he really is. He has to find a way to stop hating himself and punishing you. You will not be able to show him the way. He will have to find it on his own. The only things you can do now are:

1. Expect respect, and act accordingly when respect is not recieved...i.e. end the disrespectful activity.

2. Be kind and supportive when interacting with him while maintaining your boundaries...i.e. no more sex for sex sake.

3. Do not file against him or move towards divorce. For once in his life put the weight on his shoulders.

You had mentioned previously that you are a teacher. I am sure you are aware of how to deal with conflict in the class room. I know these are children and he is an "adult" but the skills utilized in dealing with conflict should apply. For example, you do not engage in a word war with an unreasonable child. You do not belittle, malign, or shame your students. You have rules and expectations. When rules are followed and expectations are met progress is made...when rules are broken and expectations are not met appropriate consequences follow. You set up a standard for your room for the good of everyone. You need to set up a standard in your life good for you, your husband and your marriage.

He is not ready to face his faults in private...he is worlds away from facing them in front of you. There are possibilities for a beautiful marriage for you both. What will affect him right now? Doesnt really matter, what matters is that you start defining how you want to be treated as a person...remembering that he is not going to be writing love poems anytime soon. At the very least you deserve civility and compassion...when faced with his bad behavior do not remind him of his faults...withdraw from him. Silence can be deafening.

Also about saving his emails for future use. I understand the pain you are going through but you are better than that. If you did forward his words it would only serve to hurt him more, reinforce his belief that life is only full of pain. Pain caused by you. Also you would cause pain to anyone who read them. Even though he is 100% wrong do not stoop to his level. If you inflicted intentional pain on him again I fear that would be your last act as his wife. He would not recover.

I wager he has no idea what he is trying to do...he is just reacting. Trying to dull the pain and self-doubt. He is doing it badly. The basic concept of punishment and detterant are hard at work with him. To even get to the point of considering a future with you he wants to reassure himself that he has punished you so much that you would never cross the line again. He has an underlying fear that if you are not sufficiently punished he is at risks again. Again not justified but totally normal. I worried that I forgave my husband so readily he found it extremely easy to harm me again. I have no desire to be cruel to him but I wonder if I would have been less forgiving from the start would he have changed sooner. Who knows, and who really cares. I just know it is a natural feeling. The problem is we all have lots of different feelings about things but there is no justification for abuse. Continue to change yourself by setting boundaries...although you do not have control over him the changes in you will force his hand. How he chooses to react will be the answer.

best wishes

ayslyne

First of all, thanks to everyone for their support, agreeing that I do indeed deserve better treatment than this. Really I feared I'd still come across a BS or two who felt I still deserved it all to some extent.

I am still undecided about whether I should go for a "full monty" plan B (that's WAT's term, even though it makes it sound like I'm going to get naked and then tell him sorry, no more contact for you, lol) or a plan A with strong boundaries, including no sexual intimacy.

Ark - I appreciate your point of view. You are so right when you say, "He is hurting you back using perhaps the "tool" that hurt him most...sex..."

Ayslyne - funny you should say he's punishing me. One of his male friends (whom he can't be bothered to have any contact with) just said to me last week that he still thinks my H is punishing me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing is interesting though...he did in a minute way heed your message in the email. He doesnt say "Want to F***?" even though that is still his message. Small but interesting... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed, he probably thinks he's really doing something to heed my request, by using different words. Hr probably thinks it is a BIG deal that he's doing something for me that I requested (to not refer to it so crudely). We did talk about him finding a more romantic way to ask. He may think asking "Do you want to have sex?" is a more appropriate, even friendly invitation than what he said in the email.

He doesn't know that I am now at a point where I just don't want any more sex with no strings attached. (I still have to tell him that.) It chips away at my self-esteem too much to keep on doing that, and I know that he'll let it go on forever if he can. He gets to live alone, do what he wants when he wants, have great sex with me, know I'll do anything and everything to save this marriage if he says the word, and spend his social time with his female best buds. Why would he want that to change?

As for his emails, don't worry, I don't actually intend to forward any of them. I just feel tempted at times. I would rather "kill him with kindness" than hurt him anymore ever again. Yes, I'm cautious what I write in emails to him. He's said before he could use things I've written as an admission of adultery to get an immediate divorce, so I'm cautious not to say anything direct about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wager he has no idea what he is trying to do...he is just reacting. Trying to dull the pain and self-doubt. He is doing it badly. The basic concept of punishment and detterant are hard at work with him. To even get to the point of considering a future with you he wants to reassure himself that he has punished you so much that you would never cross the line again. He has an underlying fear that if you are not sufficiently punished he is at risks again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, indeed, he probably is just reacting....but I can imagine him also telling me someday down the road that he had an elaborate strategy at work, and that I wasn't smart enough to figure it out. That could be true, or it could be a cover up for how lost he really is, who knows.

I'm actually leaning towards Plan A with strict boundaries, but I can imagine him stopping making contact with me quite quickly if he finds out I won't "give him any". But so be it. I guess it might be like he forces me into Plan B. I can deal with that better than I can deal with allowing my self-esteem to be chipped away at and feeling like a sexual outlet and not a valuable human being (in his eyes).

I could've sworn someone said something about just saying nothing when I'm not sure how to react to him or what to say....I like that idea....but whose was it???

Jen

Hi Jen,

So sorry for the tough week.

I guess I am a bit confused by the responses you have gotten. Some I agree with completely and some somewhat. Again, I won't justify you have an affair. Plain and simple - it was wrong. Forgive me if I am wrong here. Going back to the first time you posted here up till now, let me get these facts somewhat straight.

Your husband is involved with not one but two women with a strong emphasis on having an EA with possibly both. He ignores you, somewhat belittles you, has no respect in your opinion, thinks you should make some major changes in yourself, etc. You find solice with his best friend and with the drinking, it leads to your encounters. This all the while when your husband sat outside not coming in to say "what the *&^% is going on here?", punching him in the face, knocking on the door - nothing! He acts normal for two weeks until it spills out and your affair is confronted.

He then moves out, with his girlfriends, telling you thats it for now. Seperation for 6 months. You find the error in your ways and do a complete turnaround in being the model remorseful wife. Some of us have will never see what you have portrayed to him as this type of a former WS. You do everything he has asked up to this point. He belittles you time after time, emotionally abuses you literally, again has no respect to you or for you and you come time after time saying you love him and you are willing to wait.

Now you say that you are losing feelings rapidly. Withdrawals are coming at a fast pace. I guess that I am confused with this. I don't understand why you would continue to Plan A. In MB, Harley states that Plan A is when you still love your spouse and you have enough love to have it LB'd or trampled. Plan B is to protect your love. To protect your feelings. Sometimes to get someone to get off their lazy butt and work on the marriage. I'm sorry but I see you looking at the Plan B. My confusion is how long you are going to wait? Till he absolutely destroys everything or you? Till he actually becomes the martyr? His family hasn't given you the time of day since this has happened except for a here and there occasion and you are worried about what? Do you want to eventually hate him? Is it already getting there?

I have seen a resentment and bitterness come out in your posts that weren't there before. You say you want a family some day with him. Is this how you want him to show is daughter or son one day how to treat someone? Granted there is a period of hurt, anger, remorse and so on. But really!

I understand being the BS. I am one. My wife had a EA/PA with whom I consider that scum of the earth(as most of the BS here do consider the OP) I also know how manipulation goes too(I've done my share) and he is a king of it. As far as Plan A goes, what needs don't you meet? When do you get to meet them? Do his girlfriends still share the time with him? Live with him? Meet his needs? And honestly, you don't know if it has gotten that far do you? He continues his EA that started before you affair and will continue. He told you that. To accept them is what he wants you to do. Since you told us that he sat outside that door, I haven't trusted him. He is wearing that coat well.
Well, please forgive me for being harsh. I am confused on the decision and some responses. I understand full well how important Plan A is, but I also understand when Plan B needs to happen. For protection at a later date. I sure hope things get better. I'll pray for you and your husband that someone knocks him over the head and knocks some sense into him and soon!!

WorthIt - Yes my saga is a long and confusing one. I'll try to help clarify things a little for you.

My H has two females as his only two friends at this point. They were two close friends to him before my A as well. Now he's cut himself off from the rest of his friends and will only spend social time with those two women or his own brothers.

In June, when D-day hit, my H demanded separation, which meant living on different floors in our house. Then a couple a couple of weeks into separation, or maybe it was just over a week later, I can't be sure now, we had a blowout (I found the keys to EA lady #2's apt., followed my H there, he threatened to call the police if I used the keys, we LB'd like crazy, he screamed that he lovED me, but didn't anymore and we were so done!). Then he came home, got a few bags full of stuff and moved in with her for a couple of weeks. He came home two weeks later "because he felt like it." I still got told he wanted a Dv, and was going to wait for the 1 year separation to go by so he could have his Dv. We continued living on separate floors, then July came and we took separate vacations. We're teachers, so July is when we'd normally vacation together. I tried to suggest we do this, he refused, so I went on a trip with some girlfriends. Selfish I know, but it's done and over with now.

I came home in August. For about 5 days he led me to believe he wanted to try to work on things. Then he changed his mind. He went on the annual family fishing trip with his family, and asked me to be moved out by the time he got home. I did move out, partly because I couldn't stand the way he treated me when we were living as a separated couple. He wanted to have sex with me, but not talk to me or spend any time with me. He'd go out and spend his days with the EA twins.

I didn't talk to him for 3 months. I tried to contact him and got no response. He had said he wanted to try living apart for 3 months, and part of that was no contact, but of course i thought I should try to maintain some contact so I could do a modified plan A or something.

The 3 month mark came and he showed up here a bit drunk, and so began our secret sexuals rendez-vous. He still got to have control of all the contact, and he refused to go do fun things with me in public. He could only stand to spend a couple hours with me at a time. This still continues now.

Yes I've done everything he's asked up to this point, with the bulk of that being that I haven't contacted him, I've let him contact me, as he wanted things to be. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He belittles you time after time, emotionally abuses you literally, again has no respect to you or for you and you come time after time saying you love him and you are willing to wait. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed.

I'm losing feelings rapidly because for the first while these mostly sexual, and partly conversational secret encounters (either in my apt. or at the house) were stepping stones, I figured, towards him being interested in sharing more with me. This isn't the case. Lately he's treating me worse, he's less willing to have conversations with me, and just wants to have sex and get out. He's been crude about asking for sex as well.

Here's a quote from myself that I think explains why I'm losing feelings rapdily: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It chips away at my self-esteem too much to keep on doing that, and I know that he'll let it go on forever if he can. He gets to live alone, do what he wants when he wants, have great sex with me, know I'll do anything and everything to save this marriage if he says the word, and spend his social time with his female best buds. Why would he want that to change? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That, and I'm learning more and more about emotionally abusive men (I've been doing some reading) and oh my does he ever fit the shoes.

I've realized I don't want to and can't be with a man who STILL thinks I am the only one who has faults and needs to make changes. If he's not willing to do some of the work here, and treat me with respect, the same amount of respect those EA women get, why would I want to be with him?

I have told him that the one EA woman would have to be out of his life if we were to save this marriage. I told him if she's that important to him, he's welcome to her, without me in his life. The 2nd EA woman has been a friend to both my H and I for 4 years, but with the A, she became much closer to him (they work together, and really he and she were friends to each other (EA?)long before she and I became friends). I haven't said he has to get rid of her. I still see her socially now and again, if for no other reason than to keep her realizing I'm still a good, fun person to be with, so she'll pass that on to my H, and be less likely to dare to get too close to my H.

Incidentally, those two women do NOT get along any more. The one that we've known for 4 years has decided that she too hates EA woman #2. She too can't stand having to compete for my H's attention apparently.

At this point I'm not sure if I still want to have kids with him. That's a long ways down the road to recovery now. I do worry that his ways will impact any child we may have, and wonder if I do want to have kids with him after all.

As for Plan B, how long am I going to wait to start a real Plan B? I'm not sure at this point. Or how long am I willing to do Plan B? Overall, I figure I wait until he files. I guess I want to be the martyr too to an extent. He has to file for Dv.

No need to apologize for being harsh, I appreciate your BS perspective.

I guess sometimes I feel like as a FWS I don't have much of a right to do Plan B, as unhealthy as that sounds. That is proabably why I'm tempted to keep up with the plan A - to look good.

Sorry, I'm tired at the end of a busy week, and I'm not really typing all this in a very logical order. I hope it makes sense.

Jen

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Hi Jen,

Let me preface this by saying that I honestly don't think that a truly repentent WS should be "defined" for the rest of their life by their indiscretion. All of us make less than perfect choices in our lives and it would be a terrible existence to never live down those mistakes we make. I don't think anyone should be punished that way when they are truly repentent. I am sorry your H is being so hurtful.

It seems to me from what I've read of your posts ( which isn't all of them) that you are honestly repentent for what you did. That said, I think I remember seeing that it has only been 7 months since d-day. I know it seems like an eternity to you, as you have made changes in yourself that deserve recognition and will change your marriage for the better.I see you are anxious for your H to see those changes and want him to want to work on the marriage as badly as you do. BUT......for a BS, 7 months is a drop in the bucket when it comes to recovering from an A. I can say that because I have seen lots of BS here( mostly women I am referring to) with truly repentent FWSs be an emotional mess for at least 2 years after recovery starts. Now again, I am talking women here, the sex that is more in touch with their feelings and emotions and generally ( I said generally guys)have more skill in working out those emotions to give a positive outcome. I don't think most men have that innate skill that we women do and I think this is at the crux of your H's hurtful actions. He reminds me of a wounded animal lashing out at the hand that wants to help him. I also notice that you say his family has shunned you to some degree, an indication that it's not only your H that has problems with forgiveness. If he lived with people who find it hard to be forgiving when someone hurts them, it's no surprise that he isn't any better at it than they are.

I know you are hurting but I honestly think you need to cut him some more slack. Again, 7 months is nothing for someone who has been betrayed in the worst way. I'm not surprised one bit that he's stuck in the mode he's in, especially if most of his family is being unforgiving. He hasn't had anyone to model forgiveness for him and he's still hurting badly besides.

I must disagree with WAT ( sorry Dave). I don't think Plan B is a good idea. I think your H is punishing you, which is wrong. I also think that he is testing you, to see if you are willing to endure the kind of pain you put upon him. Of course this is not helpful to repairing the marriage and he needs to get a grip. He desperately needs counseling and I'd bet he's pretty depressed and needs some meds. He's not able to see the glass half full right now he only sees it half empty.

I guess what I am saying is that if I had one piece of advise to offer, it would be that you don't gauge all of this on your timeline but the timeline of a male BS, which I honestly think is even longer than that of a female BS.

I can agree totally with Ark's post. Have you ever sent H any letter's? I feel letters are great as they give the BS something concrete to go back to when we hurt really bad and doubt things can ever get better. Has H ever made a terrible mistake in his life? Might you be able to illustrate to him in a letter how he might feel if he was to be defined solely by his terrible choice by the people he loved the most and at the same time reiterate how you feel by him doing this to you. I'd say to show him the patience and compassion you want so badly for him to show you and to remember that healing from this takes a very long time.

I believe you can set boundaries to protect yourself from his hurtful behavior. You do not deserve to be disrespected, you are totally right about that, but do you want to be right or do you want to be married? We BS say that to each other all the time when we must "eat" all the things we've done to contribute to the poor state our marriages were in when our WSs decided to have an A. There's just no way for you to feel the depth of the pain a BS feels unless you've been betrayed yourself. I'm not excusing his dreadfulness one bit just asking that you give him tons of time and understanding.

If you are not already in counseling, I'd suggest going by yourself for now and pray that he'll see that as a continued willingness on your part to ensure you'd never do this again ( the fear of this is SOOO huge and the most difficult thing to overcome)by demonstrating that you're still seriously working on yourself. If you engaged him by stating that you needed him to participate in counseling with you, at the request of your therapist, so that you can make yourself better that might just give him the impetus to show up for some sessions where he just might benefit under the guise of it being about you not him.

Hang in there Jen. Try not to take his hurtful behaviors to heart and so personally and instead strive to be incredibly compassionate and patient with his inability to work out all of his hurt and sorrow. All the best to you!

Jen, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I will say, however, that there are cases where the BS refuses to get past this. Some people just will not forgive. At this point I don't see your H interested in or intentioned on forgiveness or growth or change. He's stuck. He's angry, he's hurt, he's got a couple of gals feeling sorry for him so he's going to play victim because it feels better than forgiving you.

I personally don't think you'll gain much real progress by Plan A'ing since he will just push you away further and drain your lovebank even more with his belittlement and abuse.

At this point I would take a good hard look at your "I'll never file" stance and think about the fact that he may choose to never pull his head out and grow up. The man he is today is not who you want to be married to, and certainly not seperated for life from. He is a stubborn, prideful man...and he may never file if for no other reason than to be a nuisance.

That's the edge that Plan B gives. It saves what little is left in your lovebank, and at the same time gives him a wakeup call that realistically you won't stick around forever to take this abuse. If months go by and he still refuses to budge....hon, at some point you have to move forward again in your life. With or without him. I know you don't want your mistake to be the cause of the demise of your marriage...but at this point it seems that your H does. And you can't make him change his mind, even with the best and longest Plan A ever done. If he's angry enough and stubborn enough...no Plan A will ever be good enough.

I'm not against you doing a good Plan A if you don't feel you've done it. Just don't think that you owe it to ANYONE to remain stuck in someone elses rut for life...even if you did contribute to them being there. It's HIS choice to stay or move forward...you have to release yourself from his choices sometime.

mthrrhbrd: I know that 7 months is only a "drop in the bucket" in comparison to some of the timelines for recovery that seasoned and successful MBers have gone through. Honestly, I'm almost 30, I'm not getting any younger, I'm producing fewer eggs every year, and I'd hate to try to save my marriage for 2-3 years to end up alone and childless. I don't think I have it in me to put up with this for 2-3 years. But that's where I'm at this week. It could change.

My H is a bit of a jerk about letters. He refuses to read them. He shuts me out on that one. I certainly did try in that dept. though.

I know, that phrase "do you want to be right or do you want to be married?" is something I've pondered many a time. I don't want to be right, I want to be treated well. That's the conclusion I've come to.

I was in IC starting 2 weeks after D-day, and kept it up for a few months, but haven't been since the end of October. I don't really feel like going back at this point. Even my counselor could tell that I seemed to have exhausted what she could do for me. After our last meeting, what to do next was dependant on how renewed contact with my H would go.

Hope4future: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He's stuck. He's angry, he's hurt, he's got a couple of gals feeling sorry for him so he's going to play victim because it feels better than forgiving you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point. You're probably right.

I still don't know about Plan B. Tonight I feel lonely, and wish I could be with him. I haven't felt that way in days and days. I don't know if I could handle Plan B. It could push him away forever. BUT I also know that a 180 in my behaviour, with some minimal continued contact may just wake him up and maybe get him to pursue me eventually if I am lucky.

I really don't know what I want. I don't want to be treated the way he's been treating me, but I also don't want to be alone. But he has so much he needs to get over, deal with, own up to, and even get help with.....I don't know if I have it in me to go down that long road with him if he's just going to beat me up (emotionally speaking) all along the way.

I'm just having a lonely Friday night. Hopefully my resolve will return in the morning.

Jen

Jen do you remember at the end of your H's three month no contact moritorium how he sought you out and asked why you didn't contact him? Didn't he seemed worried that you had moved on? What makes you think that if you initiated a no contact period of your own, that he would move on?