Jen,

I just wanted to make it clear that when I point out what I think his motivations are for the way he is behaving it is just to define and acknowledge the feelings. Never do I justify his abusive actions. I have never believed nor advocated that anyone (WS or BS)tolerate abuse in any form. Yes he is punishing you. Is it right? NO. Does he have a right to be upset, depressed, withdrawn? Yes...but he seems to think and you seem to be confused about what behavior is acceptable when dealing with these issues. It is one thing for a BS to be sad, have trigger moments. This is a normal process and is best resolved when the spouses are open and honest about their feelings. Open and honest does not translate into: "Well I feel like crap so I am going to put the screws to my spouse over this."

For example I may have a trigger moment where I feel incredibly sad...most times it happens when I hear from the mother of his child from the ONS. His child visits regularly and everything is amazingly smooth but sometimes playing nice with this person turns the knife in my heart. So I have one of two choices:
1. Throw a fit, bring up the past, call names, make him feel low because I feel low.

2. Act like an adult. Tell him rationally that She was just getting to me today so I am down. Accept his comfort...move on.

HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Now in the beginning I would cry alot easier, be moody, and sometimes plainly inconsolable. I knew my depression affected him. When I talk about dealing with the pain of infidelity this is what I am talking about. Early on the depression sessions are more frequent. Ofcourse in dealing with the depression the FWS is reminded of their past actions. They feel bad. The pivitol point here is dealing with the sadness together NOT intentionally inflicting pain on each other.

One fact remains clear. No matter what pain my husband had inflicted upon me I never have a right to abuse him. Share my feelings, my down moments. Yes. Abuse. NO.

You are being abused. Do not misunderstand that defining what he is doing is in no way a justification for his behavior. I read in many of your posts...how long do I have to put up with this? You have never had to put up with it.

For yourself you have to define the difference between a person expressing their rage and hurt in a healthy way and abuse. There is a difference. This process is not some juvenile penanance where Jen gets treated like dirt for X amount of days, then things will get better.

I have questioned myself...should I have forgiven my husband as quickly as I did. If I were less forgiving would he have strayed time and again. Or would he have know I was serious. When I say less forgiving I dont think, Hey I should have made him pay. I should have walked on him every chance I got. What I mean is, Should I have separated longer from him...allow myself more time to greive and heal on my own. I went quickly back to status quo. Forgive. Move on. Only we didnt move on. When I pulled back and said look I am done...I forgive you but I cannot be married to the man you are...and I followed through. He made the change. But he worked on proving that he had changed. He works on proving it every day.

Some things you should constantly keep in mind:

1. Communicating pain is different that inflicting pain.

2. No abuse is justified. EVER.

3. He is abusive. He feels justified. He is not. You grapple with guilt that makes you feel like you deserve it. You do not.

4. Facing the consequences to your actions does not translate into accepting intentional abuse.

Finally it seems so cut and dry...reading books, posting. But I know in reality it is very hard. Depression, loneliness, the desire to heal all play a part in your daily life. No judgements.

take care.

ayslyne

TMCM - good point. Maybe if I do go for Plan B, he won't actually move on.

I would like to say to him, "this isn't good enough for me. This limited secretive contact, which is primarily sexual in nature, isn't what I want. I want to be your wife again. Or at the very least I'd like to try being your friend again. Until you are willing to treat me better, treat me as a worthwhile human being, and to try doing the sorts of things friends do (going for dinner, going to movies, going for walks, etc.), I'm not interested in having contact with you John. It just hurts too much. I deserve better than this."

ayslyne - Thanks for your clarification. It got me to thinking. The biggest feeling that I couldn't get over when I moved out was that I could do what I wanted when I wanted without being afraid of my H getting mad at me for it. For example, I could sit and watch tv and maybe not do the dishes for a couple of hours without having to be afraid he'd notice the dishes and get mad at me, or he'd do the dishes and then get mad at me after. He wasn't usually a screamer, but just him telling me frequently that I hadn't done what was right, I hadn't done what would please him made me feel like crap.

There's one book that talks about the problem of two spouses having the parent-child roles. He was the parent and I was the child. I felt so many times like he was in control and I had to ask for permission to do things.

The big blow to my ego that I couldn't get over was when he started up that first close friendship with a female colleague 4 years ago. He said I had to make the time to exercise with him, or he'd start doing it with her. I felt like I had no choice. I was too busy with work and thought well, why not get him off my back about exercising with him, and let him exercise with her. But then it led to them spending a lot of time on the phone, going shopping, doing the kinds of things good friends do. One time when we all went on a big camping weekend with about 15-20 friends, she and my H disappeared for about 3 hours. I was beyond angry. I completely freaked out on him in front of everyone. He told me there was no reason for me to be mad, they were just off for a walk and a talk like usual. (Funny thing, OM was there too for that mess, but was just another one of H's work friends at that point.) There was another time where my H called that female friend "Mademoiselle" when he was asking her something in front of me - that's a pet name he used for ME. That hurt so much. I broke into tears, I told him how much it upset me.

I guess as I ramble here that my point is I was afraid of my H a lot of the time in the past few years, felt like he was my parent (he's even said he felt like he was my parent), and I was very hurt by his need for closeness with not one but two female work colleagues that become close friends, because I was too busy with work. I will never be the one and only important woman in his life. The only time I got to have that was when we went away on vacations, but even then he had to phone EA lady now and again to be nice.

I just don't see him treating me well, unless I can get him to attend MC and the counsellor can wake him up to how he contributed to the state of the marriage prior to the As. I have real trouble imagining him being less controlling. He sees me as someone who was far from a good wife, there was so much I should fix. I wasn't good enough in the domestic dept. being the primary problem, and my inability to minimize how much personal time my job took up being the second one. Yes, I let my job take too much precedence. But that doesn't entitle him to his female friendships, now does it?

Darn it, I can sense myself falling into a depressed state here, getting all reflective like this. Must be PMS.

Sorry to ramble. I guess I did that because I'm curious if my thinking is faulty FWS fog talk or if it's valid.

Jen

Jen it's ok to ramble on, we're all here to help each other, especially during the darkest times.

You would make a wonderful mother. Can I call you mom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ?

HUH? I have no clue what I said that would lead you to believe I'd make a wonderful mother.

You hit a bit of a soft spot there. My H always used to say what a great mom I'd make. I know you were trying to be cheerful and funny, but now I'm sad, seriously.

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I'm so sorry Jen, I didn't mean to upset you and please accept my apologies for doing so.

TMCM - No need for apologies! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You are forgiven. Maybe I just haven't let myself cry for so long that any little trigger would do.

On the topic of motherhood, my H told me recently that he worries that if we get back together and have a daughter that she may get trapped in a cycle of infidelity. I told him the same thought had crossed my mind. My mom got cheated on by her first H with her BF, and now I cheated on my H with his BF. Who says a child of ours wouldn't fall into the same trap on one side or the other?

Well, enough of my pity-party, I'm going for a run. Be back later.

Jen

Jen,

a couple of things you said in your post struck me...that your husband and his OW did things like good friends...you are wrong. Men and women who are married do not have GOOD FRIENDS of the opposite sex. (As a couple you may have couple friends but no one on one) They were doing things like spouses or lovers... Do not excuse his behavior. He has to be accountable for that as much as you do. Also the pet name...this is completely wrong on his part. Does he have "pet" names for his male friends...no...no men do. Dont confuse nicknames for pet names...pet names imply special closeness and hidden meaning.

You cannot make him change. He only reacts to what you do. Time to start changing what you do in hopes of illiciting a different reaction. Do not allow yourself to be abused. Realize the only power you have is over yourself. Stop the abuse.

You are learing alot about yourself and in so doing helping others learn as well. You are a person of value. If you do not recognize that your husband never will.

ayslyne

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>TMCM - On the topic of motherhood, my H told me recently that he worries that if we get back together and have a daughter that she may get trapped in a cycle of infidelity. I told him the same thought had crossed my mind. My mom got cheated on by her first H with her BF, and now I cheated on my H with his BF. Who says a child of ours wouldn't fall into the same trap on one side or the other?

Jen</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Infidelity is so common that if the statistics are correct, then half or more of todays marriages will be touched by it. The problem is that most people who haven't been touched by it (or aware that they are touched by it) only see the tip of the iceberg and beleive that the problem is not that prevalent in M.

Maybe one good way of helping children avoid their parents bad choices is to educate them on how easy it is to fall into affairs unless they keep an eye out for boundaries lines that mark dangerous territory if crossed. Of course there is no guarantee that what we teach them will go from one ear and out the other, but it's worth the effort. This also applies for adults like your H.

I think the problem is that in your case there are really 2 WSs here. Your H is not exactly a BS. He was conducting his EAs with these 2 women, and refused to give them up. Your lack of ENs led you to be susceptible to his friend, hence the A. A true BS would have Plan A'd perhaps, tried to get you back- but since your H is really a WS- this gives him his out. It's more complicated because of this.

He's obviously still attracted to you hence the secretive sex. But there are all sorts of issues. Power, control, etc. As for you not contacting him during the 3 month period per his request- well, that seems like a blame game. You've made your feelings about him very clear.

At this point I believe you have no choice but to say you can not go on playing these games with him. Either he wants to give an honest try to reconstructing the relationship with you or NOT. I would be more sympathetic to his feelings of betrayal if he weren't having his own EAs with these women which are part of the reason you had an A.

You are still young and you will find a guy out there with whom you can have a healthy one and one relationship. Look at your M though and figure out how and why these EAs got going. Did you tolerate something you shouldn't have? How would you do it differently with someone new?

Maybe H will come around, maybe not. Look at the person you want to be. I know it's not someone being used for sex, so your boundaries are correct. At the same time- ultimatums re: the OW may not be the best. It's more of a "I would love to explore a one on one relationahip with you my darling H- but I'm not interested in a foursome with your two female friends" I think you've pretty much made that clear. So now you sit back, focus on you and let your H figure himself out. Just don't get confused your H is not a blameless BS here!

I just realized as I was typing a possible letter to my H to tell him I'm done with being just his sex-toy that his reaction will be that I am "using sex as a weapon AGAIN."

He has said that I used sex as a weapon during our marriage. That I gave it to him when he did all sorts of things to help out around the house and I felt guilty, not because I really wanted to have sex. The other side of the coin is if I was mad at him about how he'd been treating me, he didn't get to have sex with me. Truth is, he's always wanted it more often than me, so yes there were many times when I just "gave in" or did it to make him happy, and I would have preferred to just go to sleep.

How do I avoid that reaction??

JB

<small>[ January 19, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen, cant you reword it? Dont use the words Sex Toy. Say you cannot be physical with him until he begins to work on the emotional side?

The sex toy wording is rather confrontational so his response will be as you suggest. Could it not be worded along the lines of you wanting to build emotionally as well ie love? Just a $0.02.

Jen,
I am not sure why you are writing him a letter...
I think if it is plan B letter short, with boundaries, and speaks clearly of still caring/loving him...then OK..

But if you are writing him to again address "his behavior" I fear it may backfire as the last one did....

Actions speak way louder than words...yours and his....

Just a thought...as I hate to see you get hurt again as you pour your heart at to him and in his childish behavior he sing-songs it back to you and mocks you and or defends himself again....

Model the behavior, response, and the changes in you you value.

just a thought
ARK

Jen,

You should allow your self to be forgiven, it doesn't have to be from H or confirmed by him. It has to come from you.

You should understand that your happiness comes from fullfillment of your minimum needs, it could come from anybody that is willing to fillin it and more.

You should know that it is not the mistake but what do you do afterward.

This is my 2¢. I do not beleive plan A/B will work for you. You should learn "reverse babbled" ... list the most common hurt that your H told you over and over, get Orchid help if you need too. Talk back w/ all respect and no anger but all loving and patient. This is tough love.

Think about it and take a break from all of this ... when is the last time you are going out w/ your freinds and have a good time ? ... when is the last time you have a vacation away from home for more than 3 days ? ...

God loves you and loves all of us. -rh-

Jen, I think you're looking to explain your feelings to a man who is going to twist anything you have to say. He is acting EXACTLY like a WS. My H was never unfaithful to me, but I still turned ANYTHING and EVERYTHING around to make him the bad guy. Your H is doing the same. You were the BS for years, only he felt he was entitled. It sounds like he feels the need to be superior. You're not going to get anywhere with someone like that until he decides he's ready to be a PARTNER with an EQUAL.

I honestly have to agree with Redhat on this one...only counseling will pull him out of this and at this point he isn't willing to go. You need to work on coming to a place of forgiveness and acceptance within yourself. If in order to do that you need to send him a letter, do so, but realize that no amount of rewording will cause things to get through to him any better. He's in his own fog and he'll interpret things accordingly.

softman - good point. I can and must reword it. "Sex toy" will just set him off. I'm thinking along the lines of, "I am not comfortable with being little more than your secret sexual companion."

ark^^ - indeed, if it gets too long he may get defensive or just make fun of me. Honestly, I find it helpful to just sit and write him letters sometimes that I never give to him, it helps me to clarify in my mind what I want to say to him the next time we talk. I think that I am just going to take a list with me the next time we talk to each other so I don't forget any of the things I really want to say to him. I really like the last thing you said, "Model the behavior, response, and the changes in you you value." I will keep that in the back of my mind!

redhat - I think I've forgiven myself, I really do, and that my happiness comes from what I do now and in the future. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should learn "reverse babbled" ... list the most common hurt that your H told you over and over, get Orchid help if you need too. Talk back w/ all respect and no anger but all loving and patient. This is tough love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you could elaborate on what you mean here, or Orchid, if you read this and you could elaborate, perhaps it would be helpful to me. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Think about it and take a break from all of this ... when is the last time you are going out w/ your freinds and have a good time ? ... when is the last time you have a vacation away from home for more than 3 days ? ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I went out with friends on Tuesday night, Thursday night, during the day yesterday and again last night. I don't sit at home and pine away by the computer. I went away over xmas holidays, to visit friends for a few days, and to visit family for several more. I can't go away for more than 2 days again until spring break in March, I'm a teacher, and we just can't take time off without paying a supply teacher $250.00/day out of our own pocket. Don't worry, I do keep busy and do fun things, I know I deserve to.

hope4future - I know what you mean. I can't imagine us ever working things out if he won't see a counsellor. I figure first I will see if he's willing to give me more than he's been giving me. If he's willing to spend more time with me, that's not just secretive sexual encounters, and that starts to go well, then I'll bring up counselling again. He is so closed minded to the idea it's rediculous. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If in order to do that you need to send him a letter, do so, but realize that no amount of rewording will cause things to get through to him any better. He's in his own fog and he'll interpret things accordingly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, I guess you are right. You know me well, I keep revisiting what I've written, thinking if I use the right words, he'll be more likely to listen. I can only model what I would like him to do I guess.

Jen

<small>[ January 19, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,

Wow, you sure don't need my 2 cents but since you asked....... LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You have had great responses that allow you to see a clearer picture. I hope this helps.

As for my 2 cents well I have to admit, I am more of a plan B executioner with a shortened plan A but my sitch required such.

I like what Faith quoted from the Dr Harley and that coupled with ARk and Mtthrbrd to me strengthened the fact that IMHO, you should plan A a bit longer. WhY? Because you both were the BW/WS with now reverse positions.

Can a BS get foggy? Absolutely, we are only human. In fact sometimes those are the worse types of WS'. RE: their hearts have already been seared/scarred. Some think they need to feel the pain and so inflict it to themselves and others over and over again.

So what should you do? Well dear, I think you ought to let him run himself ragged. This anger will only run for so long. Like adrenaline it will not last forever.

I know you are tired but so are we. I have dealt with my H's A for over 2 years now. Others have dealt with it for much longer. You are in it 7 - 8 months? I can understand you being tired by you need to move forward.

You can reassure him of your love but not of his stupidity. As calm as possible, let him know that you will do your best to NOT enable his A. Don't give him your plans. He is not a BS, he is also a WS and you must act accordingly.

Babble a bit deary........ he doesn't know much else right now. When he shoots his anger your way, toss it back.

Hope this makes sense.

take care Jen........ keep coming here to vent as you need. We will do what we can.

Hugz,
L.

Thanks for your 2 cents worth Orchid! Honestly, it does leave me a little confused, or perhaps I'm just feeling generally confused tonight.

Here's where I am at tonight: I don't want to cut off all contact with my H. I have come to that realization over the past couple of days, so a continued plan A with new boundaries it will be I guess. But do I write him a letter? I am thinking no. I am thinking the next time he makes contact that I use it as an opportunity to talk to him and tell him exactly where I'm at. Tell him that I can't continue with things as they are, but that I don't want to cut off contact either. I feel a little bit at a loss though. I want to say pretty much "no more sex for you" until he's willing to either treat me more like a friend, date me, or let me live with him....but no matter how many draft letters or lists I make, I can't find the words to say this in a way that won't sound like an ultimatum, which is going to put him on the defensive and could send him running into isolation or something. But I have to tell him or it will continue to eat away at me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So what should you do? Well dear, I think you ought to let him run himself ragged. This anger will only run for so long. Like adrenaline it will not last forever..........You can reassure him of your love but not of his stupidity. As calm as possible, let him know that you will do your best to NOT enable his A. Don't give him your plans. He is not a BS, he is also a WS and you must act accordingly.

Babble a bit deary........ he doesn't know much else right now. When he shoots his anger your way, toss it back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In regards to what you said above, I have some questions:

1) How do I let him run himself ragged?

2) He does not think he is having an A. I haven't dared to point out to him what an EA is, or that I think he's having one. He feels entitled to his friendships with those females. He feels he has no choice but to have only them as friends. If I try to tell him he's in an EA when he's not open to my opinion, it will just anger him more, and sound like me justifying my A again. In short, he won't listen and he'll get mad if I treat him like he's in an A.

3)I still don't understand what you and redhat mean by "babble". Can you explain a wee bit more?

I found out he went away skiing for the weekend, so that's why I haven't heard from him at all. Hopefully I'll hear from him sometime this week.

JB

OMIGOD, he is unf***ing believable. He just called again, and the first thing he said again was, "So you want to have sex?"

I responded with "Is that the only thing you can say?"

His answer was, "Pretty much, bye," and hung up.

AAAARRUUUGGGHHHHH!!!!

My blood is boiling again. I feel like phoning him back and yelling at him for pete's sake, but I know better....

I can't help but feel like he's trying to drive me away, or trying to make me mad enough to yell at him to give him some excuse for something I can't imagine....

I feel like calling him back and asking him why that's the only thing he can ever seem to ask me anymore, whatever happened to friendly conversation? But I also don't want to be accused of breaking his no contact rule, and I don't want to respond to his taunts...that's what these are becoming.

<small>[ January 19, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jack55 said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he knows that by saying those things to you, you get upset. he's pushing the buttons that make you mad.

try to not sound upset when he says these things and he'll stop. ignore the emails and when he phones you, just calmly say "no thanks".

the madder you get, the more he'll do it, for whatever reason he's doing it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jack, I think you're a smart man. You seem to have him figured out here. Any speculations as to why he's doing it?? Any one else??

I think it is amusing for him to phone me and get me mad, for whatever reason. Now that I think about it, it sounded like he was having fun getting to ask me that question again. I didn't yell at him on the phone, I stayed fairly calm, I just sounded shocked, and perhaps tired of this.

AAARRUUUGGHHH!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
JB

<small>[ January 19, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Next call:

"So, you want to have sex?"

"Click"