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Hey all, just figured I'd check in with a post tonight, feeling a bit low, and since I've really used this site as sort of a public diary of sorts, writing things out usually helps me out a little bit.

I'm sort of taking a personal inventory of where I am right now in this rollercoaster ride of infidelity, and I'm trying to determine where I stand and think about what I hope or expect to happen next. I'm also starting to see an end to the tunnel, not so soon I hope, but I am starting to see my 2 clear futures -- Before, stubbornly perhaps, I saw a future with my W and I back together. I still see it, but it's not as one-sided as before. I also see an alternate path with me alone, moving on, starting over, rebuilding with someone new, someone with whom I don't have to rebuild trust with, someone I can also love and cherish, someone

And then a tought occurred to me -- What if my W feels the same way? Maybe, even IF she still loved me, or if that love returned, the thought of coming back to a life with a person that she would have so much work to do with, so much rebuilding, so much mistrust, so much to work on...Would that be enough to keep her away regardless? I mean, at her age, it's not like she doesn't have time to keep searching for someone. A clean slate. No baggage. Just a fresh start.

That's not what I want, mind you, sure, I know she and I have a lot of baggage, but I think of that baggage more as the building blocks that make us stronger. The feeling that we can overcome anything, and by making it through this, we can be better than ever. Trust each other, love each other, like never before. Learn from this experience and love each other with all we have.

I guess from where I sit, I don't know what to do next. It's such a tough situation to be in. I guess I should be happy over the past week or so. We talked for quite a while, we sat and saw each other in person. We didn't talk about us. We just were friends again. I enjoyed that. I missed that. And I DO feel like my W and I are finally again comfortable just being around each other. The sting of D-Day is finally subsiding, and the affair, which continues, still hurts, but is not as focused on as it once was.

Any relationship talk that we DO have has resulted in basically the same answer from my W: Divorce or her just telling me to let it go, it's over between us. When we ignore the subject, which to me is like ignoring the big pink elephant in the corner of the room, things seem better. We're friends again. Things are light, happy, and I can even forget about our troubles for a while. But when I reflect back, I can't help but wonder what she's thinking. Is she changing her mind about us, or is she just biding her time, figuring I'll be the one to crack first. After all, right now she's coasting along, getting all she needs from OM and supporting herself. I'm the one who's missing out, months of my life passing by, single, with no one to comfort me, no warm body to wake up to in the morning, no one to talk about my day with.

I mean, after all, being the WW and all, she's got the best of everything. If she wants to see me, she gets to see me. It only happens about once a month, but she never has to wait. She has OM for companionship, for a shoulder to lean on, for hugs, kisses, sex, conversation, anything that she might need. She went from me to him without missing a beat. It's just such an unfair situation being a BS. We get to sit alone and suffer, not only thinking of our future, but having no one to comfort us when we need it most. I wonder if my WW is ever sad. I wonder if she misses me. I wonder if she's ever been close to picking up the phone and calling me on a lonely night when she can't sleep. I wonder if she's wanted to hug me lately when she's seen me.

I know what everyone says in this situation, PLAN B -- Let her know what it's like without me in her life. In a way, I feel like Plan B is something I've already tried, or almost something she wants. I realize we haven't gone longer than a few weeks without communicating, or more than a month without seeing each other, but I still feel that a Plan B letter would be met with a response from my W saying "If this is what you want, why don't we just sign these divorce papers I've got ready?"

I am keeping busy with my friends. Going out most weekends and having fun. I am learning to play the guitar. I am reading a lot of books and working with a coach to improve the way I deal with this situation. I am keeping the house clean and working on some home improvement stuff. Yet I still feel very empty. I enjoyed spending time with my W. I realize now that we didn't use that time wisely, and that in turn, she may have not enjoyed her time with me. Sitting in front of the TV on a Friday night wasn't her idea of a good time. Now that she's gone, I realize more and more that, for me, it didn't matter WHAT we were doing -- The fact that I shared time with her was what I enjoyed most of all. And that's the hardest thing, missing that time with her and wondering if I'll ever have it again.

I'm sure I'll feel better again soon. Just continuing to ride the rollercoaster. It's been a little over 3 months since D-Day, and I still hit triggers, and moments of sadness. When I get time with my W, I have been making the most of it. I feel I'm doing a good job. But then when she disappears again after that time, even when I feel it went PERFECT, that makes it the worst. It's like losing her all over again. I know I need to lower my expectations. These things have ebb and flow like waves on the ocean. We may have a spurt of contact and then a dry spell for a while. It's just a tough ride. I'm hoping I can stay on for a while longer. I still want my marriage, and I still love my wife.

ALS

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Hey, ALS,, I know how you feel, even tho my first d-day was so long ago. It is hard to think of plan b and I am somewhat the same sit. He has me around when he wants and her for everything else. It may be that if you don't let her have you around when you call and tell her you can't see her when she wants too, maybe she will miss you. I am at that point now and I know I have to go thru with it. The rollercoaster ride has been going on too long and I hate them anyway!! Of course in my case my WS lies so he doesn't have to look bad, until he actually has to make a decision and the truth comes out. There have been so many lies and hurt I don't know if we could ever recover and I know at this point he really doesn't want to try. I am tired of being emotionally abused and treated like nothing. I know what you mean about feeling lonely and just wanting to hang out with the person you love and just being comfortable and talking about life. But we can't get down on ourselves, they chose what they did and dug the hole and climbed in. We can help them if they let us but if they don't we just get to watch things go to H***! Hang in there, I know it's hard, weekends seem to be the worst.

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HELLO ALS, I JUST JOINED THIS FORUM AND HAVE READ YOUR LONELY NIGHT, LONELY WEEKEND STUFF. i'M NEARLY FIVE MONTHS FROM D-DAY (PARTNER OF 19YRS RAN OFF WITH YOUNG GIRL AND GOT HER PREGNANT) AND ALL THE FEELINGS YOU EXPLAIN ARE SO TRUE, MY PROBLEM IS ALTHOUGH I STILL LOVE HIM SO MUCH, I FIND IT HARD TO BE FRIENDS WITH HIM. WHEN WE'RE HAPPY AND TALK OR SEE EACH OTHER, i LATER GET ANGRY THAT HE THINKS EVERYTHING IS OK SO HE CAN ENJOY HIMSELF EVEN MORE IN HIS NEW LIFE, AM I MAKING SENSE? BUT I HATE IT WHEN WE DON'T TALK OR SEE EACH OTHER. EMOTIONS ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE, BUT GLAD TO KNOW IT'S NORMAL.

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Your words hit home. I'm in limbo, too. For the past 6 months I thought my WH would see the light and come back to me, how could anything else be possible? But today is the first day throughout this horror that I've acknowledged that he might not come back, and that I might not WANT him to! All that baggage you spoke of, and do I want a man who can make such terrible decisions in my life? I'm doing OK without him, he's been gone for almost 5 weeks through the coldest winter we've had in years - and I heat my house with wood. I've learned to thaw pipes (and prevent them from freezing!), and my house is also cleaner and neater living alone. I miss him, though, he was my life partner. Like you, I miss having someone to talk to, bounce ideas off, plan with, and just BE with. It's so sad...

I guess the best thing to do is what you're doing by going out, being with friends, improving yourself by reading and playing guitar - you just made me think that I haven't played a guitar in many years, maybe I should start again! "The Answer My Friend is Blowin' In the Wind". I think it's a waiting game, and today the only thing that stops me from ending it is wanting it to be WH's divorce, I want him to be the bad guy (even though he already is!) I hope this feeling passes, maybe it's the moon. I want what so many on this site seem to want, to have their lives returned to a form of normalcy, to remain intact. In a letter I got from WH he says he's not happy, either, but you're right, at least the WS has someone to be unhappy with, we BS's are alone.

I'm writing a Plan B letter, I tried a verbal form in November, WH promised NC with OW so I let him home for the holidays, but he moved in with her New Year's Eve. I don't know your sitch but it seems that your WW is acting happy while you're miserable. When do YOU get to be happy? I'm new here so I don't know the right things to say, but if misery loves company, I'm sittin' in. But then we don't have to be miserable, do we? This too will pass. I wish you peace.

Me BS 47
WH 48
Married 24 yrs 2 kids s 24, d 22
DDay #1&2 1990, 1 EA, 1 PA swore he'd never do it again
DDay # 3 7/02
OW 44 widow co-worker
WH goes back and forth btwn us 2 mos
10/22/02 WH moves in with mother
12/7/02 moves back home
12/31/02 moves in with OW
no contact with WH until letter 1/29/03, says he will get own apartment, still on the fence
Writing Plan B letter, running out of hope

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Hey folks, I guess what they say is true, misery loves company. [Smile] I am sorry to hear of all your situations as well, at least we are not alone.

I hate to try and get on the high horse, or feel superior to my WW, but I think you all can relate to the frustration. I try to put myself into my WW's shoes and understand she is doing what makes her happy. If she is truly happier away from me, I guess there's not much I can do. I mean, isn't that the bottom line? If our WS's were happier with us, and know we'd take them back, why won't they COME back? I know in my heart that I can give her everything she ever wanted, I've learned so much, but I wonder if she believes that and, even if she did, if she'd put pride aside to step up to the plate and say she'd like to give us a try.

Day By Day - Sounds like you know just where I am coming from. Hope your weekend gets better as well. Are you separated from your H?

LMW - Welcome to the board. There are a lot of great people here that can help you through this. Glad you found us. Sorry to hear about your situation. I am sure you are feeling awful, but it does get better. Just sometimes we all have our bad days. You are making perfect sense actually. When we see our spouses, we enjoy their company. It's almost a glimpse of what we used to have, especially when we try and put the affair out of our minds. It's frustrating because for a lot of us, even if we don't talk about it, it's in the back of our minds. I mean, after all, who are we kidding here? We're sitting in a room together and making nice, but what we REALLY want to know is what our spouses are feeling now. Are they any closer to wanting the marriage back? Any further away? Talking to my wife about this stuff pushes her further away. But I'm afraid NOT talking to her about it pushes me further away. But yes, it sucks, because we feel like our spouses get to see our smiling faces, then it's back off to their other person for more of the same. They get constant attention, yet when they leave us, we're alone. Again.

LabLady - I see you can relate very well to what I'm going through. I'm not to the point yet where I feel like I'd be BETTER off without my W, but I am starting to see a reality without her more clearly. I still do believe that, one day, my W will want me back, or at least wish she'd have made a different choice, but I'm not sure if that's going to happen in a month, 6 months, a year, or 10 years.

I agree with you on the divorce thing, too. I first brought up divorce right after D-Day, I didn't think I had any other options and I also was hoping it might wake her up -- Of course, bad idea. My wife wants a no-fault divorce and has papers drawn up and ready for me to sign. However, she stopped talking about it now. She doesn't mention it. I believe, like your H, she's sort of waiting for ME to bring it up again. That way, it was "my" idea, "my" divorce. I won't have it that way. I'm not even sure if I'm ready to sign off if she asks, but if this divorce is going to happen, SHE is going to need to take full responsibility for it. I want her to clearly know it's not what I want.

My WW doesn't want me to be miserable. And I don't want her to be miserable. At first I did, because I thought if she was miserable, maybe she'd come back to me. But before that would even happen, I need to show her a happy, healthy me. So I stopped being miserable. Sure, I get down sometimes, maybe she does, too, but we can do that behind closed doors from now on. And I can vent here. When I see her, or talk to her, which is rare, I do my best to be happy and pleasant. But after those visits end, and we say our goodbyes, completely ignoring the fact that here we are, a married couple that no longer lives together, worse yet, here she is sleeping with someone else. We just act like it isn't happening. And that certainly does leave me a bit unsatisfied. Especially since I still have no idea where she stands, what's going on with her affair, and if she's even one step closer to possibly wanting to get back together.

Tough stuff, for sure.

ALS

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You're going to be much better than fine. In fact, you already are.

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Whippit, you're right, and I appreciate you saying that. I feel I've grown as a person, I do. But I still do get lonely and miss my W. I guess that's the hardest thing a BS faces really is just the loneliness of it all. It's tough being separated, sometimes I feel that even if the A was continuing, I'd even be better off just at least being able to see and talk to my W more regularly. But I guess I'll never know how that would have played out, I may have LBed even more in that instance, too!

ALS

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als, you remind me of me, in some ways.

I won't beat around the bush.

I just wonder if the *plan A* position that you are taking is the best way for either of you.

It seems to me that she does not admire or respect you... it feels more like she pities you. ouch.

I wonder, what level of FS do you provide for her? Scant or *none*, I hope.

It hurts to read your posts b/c you are trying so hard to forgive & recover. Yet there is no evidence at all of any interest on her part.

I am sure she would look at you differently if you actually took real steps to move on .

It seems to me that changing yourself and detaching is really your only chance for getting your WW back where YOU WANT HER TO BE, which is loving, respecting, honoring, & admiring you the way you are oh-so-willing to do for her.

Start to change & detach; you may find you no longer want to recover the marriage anyway. Who knows, you might find someone even better. [Eek!]

I do understand though that this runs totally against your instincts to save what you feel you've built up during your marriage.

Best Regards,

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Hi Nuffin.

I think you might be right about the admire and respect, though I don't think she really feels pity either. It's a possibility, sure, I mean, anything's possible, and who knows what she's feeling right now. I think for any WS to have an affair though requires them to not respect their spouse, and also for them to lose some level of admiration for them.

What you're suggesting I do isn't wrong, really. The coach I've been working with actually has had some great advice for me, which I've been listening to 100%. We are working up to Plan B, but doing our best to build a positive memory before that happens. I am doing great, and I am moving on, learning, and growing. But to just suddenly disappear with only memories of the person I was when the A started, and the mistakes I made in handing the situation after D-Day, isn't a good idea. It leaves the WS with nothing but bad memories of you. They have no idea of the changes that you've made as a result of this entire ordeal.

Oh, and I don't provide any FS, and she doesn't want it, so that's not a problem at all. There is no financial argument as far as Dv goes either, it's not a money thing at all.

So, even though you might have received the wrong impression from this post, believe me when I say I have been changing and detaching for the past few months now. Detaching is the hardest part, but I have gotten better at that as well. I wish I'd have done so sooner. But I have learned that patience and detachment are probably the two most important qualities to have in this situation, for sure.

ALS

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...I wish I'd have done so sooner...

Actually, you are right on schedule. i see that you did these things for yourself as well as for your WW. You are a noble beast.

You really lay your heart out there in your posts as well as in your dealings with WW. I have nothing but respect & admiration for you.

Wish that did it for ya! [Big Grin]

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Thank you for your compliments. I appreciate that.

I realize that sometimes I do the wrong thing, we can't be perfect, we're all only human. I have made mistakes since D-Day. My W has made mistakes as well. But love can conquer all, but of course, only if that love is still there for both sides. I know I still have that love, I can still feel it. I still lay in bed in the mornings wishing my wife was there to cuddle up with me. And I know that, even with all that she has done over the past few months to our marriage, I would be happy to cuddle right back with her again. So that must be love. Sure, I had some moments of doubt after D-Day, I think everyone does. But once the smoke clears and the dust settles, I think that's when we truly know if we want our marriages to continue or not.

Of course, the flip side to that is that once the WS gets out on his/her own, they may see their own side of things. They may enjoy life more without their husband/wife. Of course, statistics show that eventually, most affairs die out. Not all, but most. And this one my W is having probably will, someday. But even after that happens, that still might not be enough for her to want to come home. She may enjoy living the single life for many years to come. And if that's what she enjoys, there's nothing I can do to change that, and our marriage really doesn't have a chance. She needs to want it as much as I do. That's really the unknown factor in all of this. We can be sincere, loving, caring, forgivig, and above all else want our marriages, but if our spouses are dead set against it, regardless, we're just spinning our wheels.

Those are really the thoughts that get me down when I get in one of moods. [Smile] But they do pass, and I do know one day, somehow, things will be better.

ALS

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ALS, if she is so sure that there is no hope for the M, and wants a divorce, she really doesn't need you to sign anything. The question is, why is she stalling? is it the attorney fees? or is it that she has doubts about divorce? It would be a good idea to find out which of the two is the real reason, because then you can plan accordingly instead of wondering what course of action to take.

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Actually the reason she is stalling, at least what I believe, is that she can only do no-fault divorce without my signature after 2 years apart. Before then, she has to file at fault (she can't afford attorney) or she needs my signature.

She brought up the paperwork once and asked about me signing it, I said I didn't want to do that. She got upset about that and hasn't brought divorce or the papers up since then.

I'm not sure if she's just waiting for me to get tired of waiting and take the initiative, or if she is having doubts herself. If she really pushed the issue though, I would sign, though under protest, I just want it to be HER divorce, not mine, even though it's no fault I at least want her to know going in that it's not what I want. But if she wants it to be happy herself, I will sign. She just needs to ask.

ALS

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ALS, I had many days like that during my seperation. I assume this isn't your first one, and most likely won't be your last. Posting here is a great way to vent those bad feelings. I've got nasty stuff all over the pa/pb board. A good majority of it is just venting, cuz it felt good to let it out. It still does. Even after reconciliation, I still come go there to let out some frustration, when I can't get those ugly little thoughts out of my head. I even still send "Coach" an e-mail or two a week, just to let her know how it's going, or to even ask for, yet even more, help. That's what this forum is for, and what we're for. So keep putting those feelings down, and remember there will alwas be someone here to give you their 2 cents worth. Even though sometimes it's not even worth that much, it's nice to know someone's listining/reading. Keep your chin up, sooner or later she'll have to deal with this situation from her end. Are you sure she's only waiting so she can file no fault?

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MTD,

Thanks, your story is certainly one of those that gives me encouragement, and keeps me going. To see how far you have come from where you were and that you are doing so well is an inspiration to me and many others, I'm sure.

And, you probably already know how I'm going to answer that question, but I will anyway. [Smile] I'm really not sure of anything regarding my W right now. I'm not sure about her feelings towards me, or towards OM, or towards divorce. My main motivation when I broke into relationship talks with her wasn't so much to try and reconcile, but to at least get a barometer on how SHE is feeling about us. Of course, when that happens it scares her away, makes her sad, and the whole process takes a few steps back.

By the way, let me give you the divorce timeline, maybe this will shed some light or possibly allow you to help me figure out what she might be thinking:

1) I was the one to bring up divorce first, right after D-Day, before I found MB I didn't think there was any other solution. I never wanted Dv, I stupidly used it as a scare tactic to try and get her back. It didn't work, of course. I even went so far as to pay to download a no fault divorce "kit" on the internet.

2) By the time she moved out, I'd found MB, and stopped all Dv talk. She asked for all the paperwork I'd downloaded to fill out on disk (I had it but never worked on it). She took it with her in November to her new apartment. I read an email from OM to her telling her that she needs to take care of "the papers" so they can be free and happy.

3) Mid December - She sends me an email and says she has the paperwork all filled out, wants to know when we can get together and sign. At this point, though, we were hardly talking, it was basically a Plan B without a letter. When we did talk, it was short and all business.

4) December and on - I ignore the paperwork comment in email and start attempting pleasant conversation with her when we talk on the phone or speak in person. She doesn't bring up the paperwork at all.

5) Mid-January - We get involved in relationship talk during a long phone call. It kicks off when I say "I'm still your husband" on the phone to her when she asks me why I'm confused about her not wanting to see me. Her reponse: "I have some papers here that can change that". I reply by telling her that I do not want a divorce or to sign, that I am not trying to make her life difficult, I just do not want that. She tells me she understands my position, but that I AM making it difficult. We talk about us for a half hour, she cries, it's a bad experience.

6) Since then, things are better again. I don't ask about divorce or talk about us AT ALL, and when I don't give her a chance to bring it up, she doesn't. It feels to me like the first mention of us, reconciliation, any sort of relationship talk at all, the divorce papers will get brought up. I almost wonder if she's waiting for the opportunity to bring it up in conversation without just hitting me with it out of the blue. Or maybe, just maybe, she's willing to wait a while on this because there's a spark of hope.

The one big thing with her seems to be expectations and false hope -- She has said many times that she doesn't want me to get my hopes up about us, or have any expectations about anything. So I don't do that anymore. I take that as a positive thing, anyway -- She may not have decided what she wants yet, but she also fears that if she even gives me a small indicator that she might be wanting to come home, I may expect that means everything is going to be great. Of course we know recovery isn't NEAR that easy, or even STARTING recovery, but it would be nice to know if she at least had doubts about the divorce. If there was one question I could ask and get a straight answer from now, it would be that -- Is she having any second thoughts about wanting to divorce me?

Anyway, opinions welcome as always, thanks for letting me vent, the weekend is over, can't say I'm happy about going back to work, but I seem to get along better on the weekdays.

ALS

[ February 02, 2003, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]

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ALS,

Well it has been a long time since I read some of your Posts. Crap situation you have there, no doubt about it. However you are miles ahead of where you were 3 months ago. Remember then? At this point I really don't know what I could offer as to what you may or may not do at this point. I guess it really depends on what your wifes state of mind is.

You talk about plan B and that this is what she may want anyway. If that were the case I'm sure she would have brought up the divorce papers more frequently. Have you tried this? Ask her that if divorce were going to happen wouldn't she want to make sure that all the stones were going to be turned over first. Meaning that doesn't she want to be absolutely sure she gave it her all before she quit on the marriage. You have done and continue to do your part. If this were to end you will have a clear conscience and be able to move on. Will she? Doubt it. She'll have this baggage around the rest of her life. Think about it. This affair with OM will not last for a multitude of reasons. We all know that. Possible even her. Basically in saying all of this have you given her a "soft" ultimatum. Not really a Plan B but a "hey don't you think that a 3rd party/counselor would be the next step in helping us determine the course of our lives? Don't you think that we owe it to the marriage to at least try all that we can to understand if we have a future together or not?" This may get her thinking, even out of quilt, that she may want to put a little skin in the game even if it leads to divorce. It sounds like you both want to know. This living in limbo land is aweful for both of you. Even though her A is still going on she is still in limbo with you and her past. She will need to get some closure either way. Counselling may be that enabler. Hey it may even be the 1st step in reconciliation for the two of you. Who knows? See if you can schedule a time, under the guise of lets see if it is over, with a MC. OR if she really wants a divorce from you then make her go to counseling for say 2 months before you sign any paper work as a condition. I think you two need a 3rd party involved at this point. Just my measly 2 cents worth on this.

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Mark! Thanks for checking in on me, I appreciate that and the long post. I have been closely following your story as well, and I must say, you are doing GREAT. Your wife is going through the natural process and you are doing a perfect Plan A right now. The way I see it, she's in withdrawal, but slowly coming out of that. Good show.

As for me, well, you're right about my state of mind -- I understand the situation a lot more and I am a much better person. I am positive of that. However I still do get sad to think of my W continuing to see OM, sleep with him, spend time with him, etc. Like you, I don't feel it is going to last with him, but it very well may last long enough to end our marriage. It's not what I want, but it might just be how things play out.

Unfortunately, I made a lot of mistakes early on, and my W took all of them to heart. She realizes that I am better now, but doesn't seem to forget how she felt about me on D-Day, and the things I said afterwards. I forced her out of the house, even made her stay in a hotel the weekend before she moved out because she had plans with OM. I brought up divorce so many times. I did this for the 2 weeks following D-Day.

Of course, I found MB and started to calm down and do better right before she moved out of the house. But in her mind, the damage was done. She doesn't remember me asking her to stay and work on the marriage, telling her I didn't want a divorce, or all the nice things I said even in the face of the A. In her mind, as she sometimes reminds me, I kicked her out of the house and didn't want to be married to her anymore.

Of course, that justifies her A and her not coming back to M. If she can convince herself that I want a divorce, and that I didn't want to live with her anymore, it makes what she's doing easier. That's why it's so hard to hear that I want her to come home, and work on the marriage.

So, I figured I'd best make those intentions known again a few weeks ago. Back in December, you may recall I sent her a very nice Plan A letter, dropped it off at her work, saying I wanted to work on the marriage and that I loved her. She took me for a stalker and didn't want to talk to me anymore. Then she warmed up again, things got better, I again in a phone call told her I wanted to be married and work on us, and she cried, got scared, and didn't want to talk to me for a couple of weeks again.

So, at this point I'm afraid to ask her about us, divorce, anything. She knows where I stand. She knows I am willing to work on our relationship. Willing to counsel. Willing to talk. Willing to forgive. She knows all this. I am an open book. She is a big unknown to me. Or maybe if she was posting, she would say "He knows I want out of the marriage. He knows I want a divorce." I'm not sure if we're at a stalemate or if she truly is having second thoughts. But I'm afraid to ask her what to do. I still feel that her answer is that

I imagine that if we get to Plan B that I'll find out that day whether she is still wanting a divorce. I feel that, given the fact she's got the paperwork ready, she'll ask me why I'm not signing if we're not talking anymore anyway. I don't see it as a method I can use to convince her that our marriage is worth coming back to. If anything, perhaps signing the Dv papers and Plan B-ing for the 3 months it takes them to be finalized would be the best approach if she asks again.

All those things you suggest I say to her are things I wish I had the skill and knowledge to convey after D-Day. I feel that each day she doesn't grow to miss me, but rather she grows stronger on her own and more independent. I worry that she's actually growing further away from me, and the longer we are apart, the easier it is for her to forget about me.

I'd love to get her to talk to a counselor with me, I truly would. I think she fears it just because first of all she IS the one who had the A, but also because I think in her mind, our marriage is over, and counseling is a waste of time. If it was something she was at least unsure of, perhaps counseling would be something she would do, but at the point we're at, with her not at all interested in any sort of relationship with me, it seems like counseling is too big a step for us to take.

ALS

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ALS,

OK I'm in a "the glass is half full" kind of mode right now so I'll take advantage of that and respond regarding some of your comments. Mind you my glass is always not half full. Two weeks ago I couldn't even find the glass. So here we go.

However I still do get sad to think of my W continuing to see OM, sleep with him, spend time with him, etc. Like you, I don't feel it is going to last with him, but it very well may last long enough to end our marriage.

Yup that sucks alright. However you get sad less and less because you are getting stronger. You already know that. Yup your right it may last long enough to end your marriage. You don't have control over that so forget about that aspect of it if you can.

Unfortunately, I made a lot of mistakes early on, and my W took all of them to heart.

Well Ok you did make some mistakes. We all do. Shall I count all the mistakes I made? It would take up at least 5 pages here. Did she take it to heart. Yea probably. But she also is taking to heart everything you have been doing since. Otherwise she wouldn't even talk to you never mind see you. And she hasn't brought up the divorce again has she? Nope. More on that later.

In her mind, as she sometimes reminds me, I kicked her out of the house and didn't want to be married to her anymore.

Ok stay with me here. Take this as a good thing that she is reminding you of this. In the whole MB world this is called "conflict". Remember? Out of withdrawel and back into conflict is a good thing. Besides she is using this against you so she doesn't have to think about it being her decision. All you can do is say that you were sorry and that is not how you feel anymore or at the time. I would say that you just didn't see the DDay coming, who does, and your emotions got the better of you. You didn't know how to react at the time. It just came out.

So, at this point I'm afraid to ask her about us, divorce, anything. She knows where I stand. She knows I am willing to work on our relationship. Willing to counsel. Willing to talk. Willing to forgive. She knows all this. I am an open book.

So don't ask her about a "divorce". Ask her that wouldn't she want to see and make sure that all measures were taken before your M ended. Flip every rock and stone to make sure. If the M ends then at least an honest effort was put in by her. Now she might not be ready to do this today but plant the seed. Every once in a while check back about what she thought about that statement. Even though she is with OM right now, to what extent you really don't even know, she will think about that statement. Don't mention divorce. She hasn't so what does that tell you? Just nudge her bit by bit to the thinking of at least talking with a MC or rather a phone call to Dr. Harley. What does she have to lose anyway right?

All those things you suggest I say to her are things I wish I had the skill and knowledge to convey after D-Day. I feel that each day she doesn't grow to miss me, but rather she grows stronger on her own and more independent. I worry that she's actually growing further away from me, and the longer we are apart, the easier it is for her to forget about me.

Forget about Dday. You do have the skill and knowledge to do it now. What do you have to lose? Don't force it but when you see an opening use it to plant the seed. Is she growing stronger without you? HMMMMM. Think about it. You just don't know. She has seemed to be contacting you more frequently every month right? Why? Fog is very thick here but she is still thinking of you. I don't know if you can but if so call and get an appointment with Dr. Harley. Even if it is just for one call. He can help YOU right now if you want it. He will give you some things to think about and what to expect form your wife. He will also give you some skill as to what to say and how to phrase it to get her thinking.

I think she fears it just because first of all she IS the one who had the A, but also because I think in her mind, our marriage is over, and counseling is a waste of time.

Of course she fears it. I think all the WS fears it. Righfully so. They have no idea as to what someone may say to them. They don't want to be bashed because inside they are bashing themselves even if they aren't showing it. So if she thinks the marriage is over then have her get a "second opinion" from someone who may "verify" her feelings. At least this will get her to talk with someone. Once again going back to the flip every stone theory. Waste of time? What is an hour on the phone? An hour. I'm sure she can spare an hour. Now mind you I'm still using that with my wife who is at home. She still hasn't wanted to take the call either because she isn't sure that she wants to. She wants to do it for her and says that if she were to take the call now it would be for me. Well find do it for me then. Just do it period and see what happens from there. I rationalize the call as not a commitment from her part on the marriage. It is just a call. Try this with your wife when the time seems right. Which may be a while.

Well that is about it I suppose. You're doing great considering the circumstances. Be patient but start driving home the idea of a phone call for her. Even if it is to verify that the marriage is over.

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Mark,

Wow, you wrote a ton. Thanks for taking such time and care in your response. I also have to thank you for sharing some of that "glass half full" logic with me. On days like today, it helps to hear that kind of stuff from someone, especially when I'm feeling sort of the opposite.

Yup that sucks alright. However you get sad less and less because you are getting stronger. You already know that. Yup your right it may last long enough to end your marriage. You don't have control over that so forget about that aspect of it if you can.

I agree, I am at my best mentally when I convince myself there's nothing I can do to control my W's affair with the OM. I do tend to do a lot of thinking back, which of course does no good at all, the "what if I did this..." syndrome. Of course 3 months past D-Day it's too late to do anything directly anymore, I'm now to the point where I can only control and change myself, and not really affect the affair or my W's feelings towards OM. At this point, the A needs to end naturally or my M is shot.

But she also is taking to heart everything you have been doing since. Otherwise she wouldn't even talk to you never mind see you. And she hasn't brought up the divorce again has she? Nope. More on that later.

I hope she is at least seeing that what I'm doing isn't an act, that it's truly a change for the better. The "new me" so to speak. I get better every day. I'm putting a lot of my new listening and communications skills to work with EVERYONE I meet. I am happy with myself as a person, I am. Just lonely sometimes.

There are some good aspects: My wife doesn't bring up the divorce. She doesn't say anything about me still wearing my wedding band, even though she notices. She never talks about OM or that A is ongoing. Of course, there are flip sides to all those things as well. I think it does hurt less to not have to hear about OM, but it also feels like a continuing betrayal when she weaves her stories around him, careful to not include him. The fact she continues to do this tells me the fog is still strong. I told her once that the truth is the best thing she can give me now. Honest, open truth. Lies and deception on either of our parts just digs the hole deeper.

her that wouldn't she want to see and make sure that all measures were taken before your M ended. Flip every rock and stone to make sure. If the M ends then at least an honest effort was put in by her. Now she might not be ready to do this today but plant the seed. Every once in a while check back about what she thought about that statement.

That's not a bad idea, if I can figure out a way to bring it up delicately. The last relationship talk we had, she cried. And it was because I told her I still wanted the M and she obviously couldn't tell me the same. I told her how much faith I had that we could work through things. And it made her sad, because I think she wanted to be able to tell me that too, but she couldn't, because she doesn't have those feelings for me.

I think too much sometimes. She cited the fact she left because of things we did that she got sick of, like watching too much TV, or movies at home. Now I talk to her and what's she doing? Watching TV, renting movies, playing videogames. Basically, sitting home. So, I think to myself, if she's doing the same stuff with OM as she did with me, it must just be ME. She just got tired of me and moved on. It's a bit of a blow to the self-esteem, and also to my opinion of her moral fiber.

Is she growing stronger without you? HMMMMM. Think about it. You just don't know. She has seemed to be contacting you more frequently every month right? Why? Fog is very thick here but she is still thinking of you.

True, I don't know how well she truly is doing. She is getting by. I don't think I'll ever hear an honest answer on that from her. Her whole life is up in the air. She is working an hourly wage job. She can pretty much go anywhere she wants. Move back in with her parents. Get a place with OM somewhere in the country. I'm pretty grounded. Own a house, steady professional job that I like. My wife, throughout her life, has given up on many things. She has left 2 colleges, many jobs, many past relationships. When the going gets tough for her, she runs. And she doesn't look back. At least, nothing she's run from in the past. That's her way.

Even over the smallest arguments we'd have in our relationship, she'd be in the car threatening to leave me and move home (this was before she had OM to run to). She probably did that 20 times at LEAST over the course of 2 years. I can understand her being upset, but you can't spend your life running away from your problems, running away because you don't want to face them. I was hoping she might realize that this time. But I'm afraid she won't, and a couple years down the line, she'll be running again. And she'll spend her life running to the next thing, searching for happiness. Never knowing that the key to happiness is just a good sense of yourself.

If there were TWO questions I could ask right now, they'd be this:

1) Are you having any doubts at all about divorcing me?

and

2) Are you happier now than you were when we lived together as husband and wife?

As for the Harley call, I have no idea how I'd get there now. Reading this site every day, I can see how it makes sense to have a session, even if divorce is still planned, just to clear the air on some things with a common party to listen in and interpret. But for someone like my W, who isn't educated in MB at all, and has already made her decision regarding dissolving the M, it's a tough case.

Thanks, Mark. I appreciated your post. It gives me a lot to think about. And I'm sorry if the above sounds sort of negative. I've been a bit glum lately, but it'll pass. It comes and goes. Most of the time I hit a downturn right after I see my W and things go well, because I expect more contact and then she just disappears again.

So it feels to me like, even if I do my absolute perfect best, it's still not enough to change her actions towards me at all. She can't even take 60 seconds out of her day to send me an email response to something, when I know she sits at a PC all day and watches the clock. It's not a time thing, it's a CHOICE. She chooses not to get in touch with me. Even just a simple one or two sentence mail to answer my questions or say "thank you" for the help I gave her with something. But she deliberately chooses not to respond. And that makes me feel like she doesn't care.

But, the beat goes on...Tomorrow's a new day, and I'll be back at it again.

ALS

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Why does she have these spurts of great contact just to slip back into the shadows? That's what I'm wondering today. I must be doing a good Plan A, because I sort of feel a little bit used today. Maybe it's my own fault for drawing my own conclusions. I figured that perhaps when my W calls me and talks for a couple hours, or stops by to see me and hang out for a while, it's because she wants to see me. But after that, it's back into the shadows for her. I get ignored again for a few weeks.

Worse yet, it seems like whenever she does get in touch with me, it's because she needs something -- A software cd burned for her laptop, to pick up her mail, etc. I feel as I'm good enough to talk to a throw a bone to when she needs something but that's it. I almost wish she'd be honest with me, if the only reason she is calling is because she wants something, I think I'd rather she take it and go. If she's only talking to me because she feels she HAS to out of obligation because I'm being so nice, sheesh, I feel like I don't want her pity. I was hopeful she might actually be enjoying spending time with me, talking to me, but when she only shows up every few weeks for things she needs, then just ignores me again, I can't help but feel like crap about it.

Vent vent vent...

ALS


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