Mortarman:

You're welcome. But the point of my post was that it's YOU that can serve as a model for what marathonman can do about his particular sitch right now, because it's so similar to your own.

All my best,
-Qfwfq

Q,

Oh yeah...he is definitely in almost the EXACT same situation I was. It is almost scary to see his posts because it takes me back a few months when I said the same things. If he is as stubborn as me, he wont listen until he has inflicted a whole lot of pain on himself. Hopefully, he will be smarter than me and learn through others, rather than learn through the School of Hard Knocks! Personally, the only way to get things through my thick skull is to force it in by using a 2x4 to my head! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So basically, am I just to sit here tell her I love her, try to make things peaceful as possible.
try to do the things that we did together years ago when things were better. I need those steps point by point... I'm not the worlds smartest guy in fact a little stupid.. I need those steps to go by and get her on my side with eyes open..
She is not moving out she wants me to.. she says that our relationship has deteriorated.. that was over anyway.. then the om was a seperate issue.. I know that is bull and now I understand..I dont have any money to call the Harleys I am broke....but I do need the point byv point to follow in order to get her back.. but again.. she does noyt want me .. she is set in her ways.. I am stupid tothink otherwise.. she says to get with it....the marriage is over...she wants her new life ...she wants to be hapypy in a stress free house.. no stress, no fighting...pls give me step by step... 1.2.3.4.but again I'm out of time..everything will begin to be split.. I'll have to move out soon and when I'm gone she will not be able to see me .. she wont be calling me .. she wont be talking to me.. only when she is dropping off the girls to my bording house..
she will not be able to see any chnges if there are any afetr I become bitter... do I stop telling here I love her..she does not want me to touch her .. she seems to have no feelings..her love for me is over.. I'm sorry to repat myself.. but I cant see where the light is.. I am praying like there is no tomorrow.. but as far as I can see she has turned the corner,,,she says that there is no relationship or sex or affair.. since they have not had a chance to be together,,, I have to hook on and get her mind and eyes clear.. again I'm not smart.. I need a step by step....
my friend the tears are rolling down my face .. I am broke and I am desperate.. She says I have used up all my chances with her and it is OVER..
I am not beliveing in my mind.. I love my girls and her too much to give up trying...PLEASE HELP ME,,,I really believe its too late how long will it take to get her back.. I dont want to give up.. but she says I'm dreaming about the day that will never come. "get over with it! ".. PLEASE HELP GIVE ME DIRECTION>> STEP BY STEP!!!

The inmediate problem is that you are taking everything she says as the Gospel truth. You are not dealing with the woman who loves you, but a stranger that cares nothing for your wellbeing and that of the children. But you seem to be unable to ignore her delusional ravings, so I would suggest that you follow Dr Harley's advise in seeking a doctor to prescribe you anti-depressants to help you follow a consistent plan of action without your emotions sabotaging all your efforts. Control of your emotions is essential if you are going to have any chance to save your marriage.

marathonman:

I'll defer to Mortarman on the rest, but the first step:

"She is not moving out she wants me to.. "

GOOD. Then you BOTH stay!!! I'm serious. DO NOT MOVE OUT. Move into a separate room if you have to, but don't move out. She wants out of the M. Make it clear that she has to be the one to get out, because by leaving, she's not just leaving you, she's leaving the family. And YOU are NOT willing to leave your family. Admit you have a lot to do to improve yourself, but stop there, and just DO IT.

Okay?
Mortarman's turn,
-Qfwfq

Okay I dont leave , she refuses to leave.. then she either gets a court order.. or tries to make things so hard for me.. we already dont sleep in the same bed.. she really wants me out.. I dont want to leave and as long as I can stay I will.. but that wont help the situation.. although I do plan on not saying anything about the OM and being as nice as possible.. she is going to get very irritable if I dont leave..

marathonman:

"Okay I dont leave , she refuses to leave.. then she either gets a court order.."

Based on what? Do you abuse your kids? Look, at least mediators are a little more conducive to saving marriages than lawyers. Try to work with the mediator to find some compromise that you can both accept, however reluctantly. Just DO NOT GIVE AN INCH about the moving out issue.

"or tries to make things so hard for me.."

Work on ignoring these things. Try not to eat dinner together if that's what it takes. Just don't move out.

" we already dont sleep in the same bed.. she really wants me out.."

Of course she does. If you go, she can continue to blame you for her problems. If you stay, she might have to face them.

"I dont want to leave and as long as I can stay I will.. but that wont help the situation.."

It doesn't look like it will help at this point, but it will over the long term.

"although I do plan on not saying anything about the OM and being as nice as possible.. "

Don't harp on him when you're with her, but definitely bring it up during the mediation.

"she is going to get very irritable if I dont leave.."

Of course she is. You won't be "out of sight out of mind" if you're home. If she wants to avoid you, she'll have to move out herself, and that will bring a whole pile of "reality" to her life.

-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she is going to get very irritable if I dont leave</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SO WHAT? That's one of the consequences she has to face for chosing to have an affair. If she's trying to pressure you to leave it is for one thing only and that is to bring the OM to live with her (this makes it possible for him to leave his wife). If you leave, the court will order you to keep the house payments going and to pay for child support. Other than your WW, guess who else is going to benefit from such a cozy situation?

Look, you may beleive that your situation is hopeless but there are others here that have been in practically similar situations as your own, and managed not only to survive the ordeal but to go on to either a better marriage or a better relationship after the divorce. Whatever the outcome of your marriage, you still need to learn in order to come out of this a better man and father.

Okay, Marathonman…here we go! This is a process, so don't think that things will suddenly change over night. It is going to take awhile just for you to learn about YOU. I, and others here, will be here to guide you and to listen. But you will have to do the work. Only you know you. Only you know your wife. We may need to ask questions about your situation and about the two of you to better understand your particualr situation (although yours is very similar to mine, each situation is unique also).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"So basically, am I just to sit here tell her I love her, try to make things peaceful as possible. try to do the things that we did together years ago when things were better." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope! No sitting allowed here. Sitting will allow your mind to do crazy things to you. Keep busy. Read. As much as I have posted here, it would probably take you all weekend to just read it all and see where I came from. I will give you some shot term guidance on how to deal with your wife, but you have to understand…it will not change things much, if at all, right now. The best it will do right now is stop things from getting worse. And they can get worse!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I need those steps point by point... I'm not the worlds smartest guy in fact a little stupid.. I need those steps to go by and get her on my side with eyes open." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. You are ready to learn. Start with reading EVERYTHING on the MarriageBuilders website. Print it out and review it. Again, go through the threads on here and see what many have said and done. But, the last part of your sentence still concerns me. You will not "get her on my side." Stop thinking that, because what you will do will frustrate you. Let me give you an example…you make change A. You know Change A is something that she wanted changed. Now, you are doing good. So, you either run to her and say "look, I made the change…now come home," or you don't say anything but become frustrated because she hasn't taken your change and run home to you. Many of the things you do will not have an affect that you can SEE or measure for a long time. As a matter of fact, count on your changes coming with recriminations from her. At first, she will think your changes are insincere (that is why you do not mention them to her…just do them and she will notice!). After awhile, she will acknowledge the changes, but then will shift the blame to a new set of problems. You will feel like you are chasing a floating ball. Don't think of it that way. Think of it as each time you conquer another one of these problems, you are becoming a better man, a better father and a better husband. And even if your wife leaves, you will be a better catch for someone else. And if she does leave for good, then she will have to leave knowing she left the man she really wanted all along. And she will have to live with that fact for the rest of her life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"She is not moving out she wants me to.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I echo Q and Coffeeman…DO NOT MOVE OUT! It is your house. If she wants out of the family, then let her walk. Do not be spiteful when you say this. Just tell her that you still want your marriage and your family together and you will not walk out on your family or your marriage. Now…expect World War III from that. I even refused to leave my bed. The last month before she moved out, she would SCREAM at me that if I was a REAL man, I wouldn't FORCE myself into a woman's bed. I just told her that this bed belongs to me and my wife. And if she didn't want to be my wife, she could move...or sleep on the couch. But I refused to move. Also, depending on which state you live in, leaving may constitute desertion. So, don't leave. Take your lumps…there are many more to come!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"she says that our relationship has deteriorated.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And she is correct!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"that was over anyway.. then the om was a seperate issue.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And she is correct here. Your marriage is over! That one is destroyed. But that does not mean divorce and does not mean that you wont have a new and better marriage. You have to understand this. The marriage you had is OVER! Why would you want it anyway? Look what it led to. No, you want your wife in a new marriage, in a new covenant...with a new Marathonman.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I know that is bull and now I understand.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think you do. While it may be true that she is "pscho babbling" or fog talking (here after referred to "PB"), you have to learn to get into that PB and find the real truth. I will go into this more as we go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I don't have any money to call the Harleys I am broke...." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand. Then do the next best thing and read everything you can by them and others that people suggest here. Become an expert on affairs, on marriage, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but I do need the point byv point to follow in order to get her back.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We will help guide you on this point by point, if we can But, again it isnt about getting her back. That should not be your goal. Your goal should be to try to learn and be a better man, father and husband. Her coming back will be the natural result. But if you see that as a goal, then you will be caught up in her PB and will "ride the rollercoaster."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"but again.. she does noyt want me ." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you know? Because she says so? PB…fog talk. But there is truth in there. She does not want the past. But to say she doesn't want you…well, that is probably not true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"she is set in her ways.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All WSs are! Get used to it. You cannot change her nor manipulate her. Just change you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "she says to get with it." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heard it before...more PB!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"the marriage is over" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More PB...nothing new here!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"she wants her new life" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mrs. Marathonman and Mrs. Mortarman are probably long lost twins. More PB!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"she wants to be happy in a stress free house.. no stress, no fighting" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aaahhhh…now we are getting somewhere. Here is the nugget of truth in here PB (there is always a nugget of truth in PB…you just have to find it). She wants a stress free home. Who doesn't? why is it full of stress? I mean, before the affair, what caused problems there? What did she complain about? What did your fights center around. Marathonman, HERE IS WHERE YOU START! This is your first mission in this "war." Find out and list what these problems were. Enlist her help. She may not want to but just ask her to tell you so that you can work on yourself and being a better MM. Not to save the marriage. This will take a lot of work. Then come back here and tell us what you figure out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"pls give me step by step... 1.2.3.4.but again I'm out of time..everything will begin to be split.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Out of time? For what? To save your marriage? Your marriage is over MM. At least the one you have been living under. Time to construct a new one, with a new MM. First things first…you got to find and build the new MM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I'll have to move out soon and when I'm gone she will not be able to see me .. she wont be calling me .. she wont be talking to me.. only when she is dropping off the girls to my boarding house..she will not be able to see any changes if there are any after I become better.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not true. Her not seeing you and not talking to you may be a good thing for a little while. It will allow you to get out of this "save my marriage at ALL costs" mentality, and it will give her time to cool down and direct her anger somewhere else. Plus, remember, as Steve Harley told me, the best thing going for you is those kids. You have a link. You have to deal with each other. It is those times she will see the new you. Added to not having the parts of you she still loves around anymore (and she still has those, no matter what she says).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "do I stop telling here I love her.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. Tell her what you want. But stop expecting "I love you" in return. You are going to have to learn to do EVERYTHING with absolutely no expectation of anything I return. At least for awhile. So, do and say what is in your heart because you want to and you think it's right…not because of what she might do or because it might "win" her home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"she does not want me to touch her .." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So don't touch her. Do you really want to touch a woman that feels about you the way she "says" she does? We will go into this part in later posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"she seems to have no feelings..her love for me is.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems! You cant see her love right now. She cant either. It is lost in the fog. But I can assure you…it is there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I'm sorry to repat myself.. but I cant see where the light is.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The light is in you. It will be your "light" that leads her out of the fog. She is lost…STOP FOLLOWING HER! Find the way out of this, and lead her out through your EXAMPLE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I am praying like there is no tomorrow.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A VERY good start…stay in His arms…He will not let you down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"but as far as I can see she has turned the corner,,,she says that there is no relationship or sex or affair.. since they have not had a chance to be together." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whether they have been, are, or will be together is not really your concern right now. You can concentrate on this…and tear yourself up. Or, you can begin to do the things to change this. And the OM wont know what hit him when your wife walks back home in the end. He cant measure up to you, if you will make the changes. So, do what YOU can and leave the rest to God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I have to hook on and get her mind and eyes clear.." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, no, no, no! Read above. She is not your problem anymore. Take care of MM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "my friend the tears are rolling down my face .. I am broke and I am desperate." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I KNOW! I have been there. But don't stay there. Get some drugs from the doc (once I went on Prozac, I was much better able to deal with the rollercoaster).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"She says I have used up all my chances with her and it is OVER." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Psycho babble. Fog talk. My wife said the same thing. And two months after she said all of these things for the last time, she is now telling EVERYONE, including the OM, what a wonderful man I am. Truth will shine through. You just have to be patient.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I am not beliveing in my mind.. I love my girls and her too much to give up trying" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, don't give up! Fight for your daughters' family and future. Fight for their mother! But, you will have to learn a new way to "fight." Normal tactics will not work. You must understand the "enemy" and adapt to the way the enemy conducts operations. So, study EVERYTHING ON THIS SITE, read this weekend about my posts and how everything went in my case (as well as others on here), and sit down and try to figure out what your wife was talking about above.

In dealing with your wife while you are doing this, be cordial. You do not have to be a doormat though. Stand up for yourself, and if you have to, get an attorney to protect your interests. Nothing is to say you have to leave the house, nor does she have to take the kids with her. Don't be confrontational, but stand up for your family. Start with these things, and then post back here and give us an update and we will move forward. It's up to you now. Look those two little girls in the eyes and tell yourself you will do what it takes.

In His arms.

<small>[ March 10, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

To repeat, since it didn't seem to register the first time: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Harley points out that even in deep withdrawal, there are moments when the withdrawn spouse opens their eyes a little. Make sure that when that happens, she sees a new you. face it, you need to change, anyway. You have short windows of opportunity, and you will probably not even be able to tell when they are there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All the while she is telling you it is over. Mortarman knows. But it happens to EVERYONE.

marathonman here,,
just started mediation yesterday... she is threatening to get me forced out of the house...
she is tired of my crying and does not want to hear any more begging to save the marriage. she is so far down the road and headed around the corner. I am trying to be nice but she is no where near coming out of any fog...I just called and cried to her father asking for them to talk to her.. probably will not help..still living in the same house and have no intentions of leaving.. neither does she.. she really wants me to leave. Not sure where she stand with the OM but sure she has strong fellings for him...the girls are going to be so devastated when they are finally told and I just cant bare to see the look in their eyes..I am trying to change but she will not open her eyes to see.. I want her to know that I can be the best husband if only given a chance. Howver, once the assests and everything is done and over with, there will be no coming back.. I can only try to be the best I can and hope for the best.. did I mention about praying.. I hope God has me in his hands right now because I sure feel lonely.. guessits all over. I tried to get her to write down how I va=can be a better mm.. she just told me to accept that the marraige is over and live with it..,.get on with your life because your wasting my time..she also said that I did not respect her.. I am trying my best...but with the OM in the picture, I find it hard...she says that I never respected her..sorry for the babbling but not sure what I am tring to say. Guess I feel that my situation is hopeless since I am on divorce road..there is no turning back..a miracle is all that will solve this one. I will just continue to try to find the faults address
them and try to fix them.. I am scared to lose this woman and I cant imagine living without her..

marathonman:

I know exactly how you feel. As do many others here. Try not to put ANY stock in the hurtful things your W is saying to you now. And still, do NOT move out. How can she "force" you out? Especially when it's revealed (or already known) that she's having an A?

It isn't important right now so much what your W is saying or doing, or especially what she thinks of you and your "changes." The changes are for YOU and your kids. NOT her. Not until she's ready to face her own demons and deal with reality again. She's far from being able to do that rationally right now.

DO NOT MOVE OUT.
All my best,
-Qfwfq

marathon:
just wanted to say i feel for you. i am going thru a tough time. so i can sympathize w/u sooo much, except husband left us here in the house.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

its hard to accept that she does not love me .. but I know that there is still love somewhere in her jeart.. ast night I sat on the couch as she cried..I had called the om wife to let her know i had good reason to believe there was an affair.. she was shocked .. the next day I asked her f to go for a coffee and she declined saying that she spoke to the OM and she trusts him.. My WW now is on the other side with no none.. now when I tell her I love her she gets all teary eyes.. maybe she is soming out of the fog...I dont know but I love her too much to give up.. today I plan to go buy flowers for her,,she also says not to be thinking we will get back together.. we have divorce on the horizon if she does not come around.. but again I cant move out.. she will have to go..if she takes the girls the doors is always open for her.. again there has to be a major deposit to the love bank and go into over drive with kindness... I sincerly hope that things work out for you as I do for me.. if it does not I'll end up being a better catch for someone else.. but again.. I know in my heart that God will take us in his arms and bring us together again..

Hi Marathonman. You asked me to look at your thread, and I am more than happy to offer what I can.

First, what happened yesterday opened something up. Don't smother it though. You mentioned buying her flowers. That sounds really nice. Be sure though that when you give them to her you mention something like you thought she'd like these since she's been rather down the last day or so. Don't make her think you are looking at it as an opening for the two of you to get back together, even if you do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You should try to portray a friend with no expectations to her, it will help her to relax more with you. In your heart you hold on to your hopes and dreams with this and continue to fight for your marriage.

As for her "trusting" the OM, she has to because if she doesn't then that means she was played the fool. Deep down though she probably questions it. Now, if the OMs wife was truly shocked it appears that there will be some rocky roads there. Maybe he's really not ready to leave and that will put a damper on his end of the affair. Here's hoping for that.

You've received a lot of good advice here. Listen to it; especially about not leaving home. Do you have an attorney? If you do use that. Tell her your attorney strongly suggests against it as it can hurt you more. Try to make home like living with a friend. In your heart hold onto your hopes. On the outside, be her friend. Help her to feel safe and let her talk to you. Don't blow up and try not to get too emotional. When you have those feelings, save them and share them here.

Ok, you want and need some fun time with her. So, she's not too open to that idea it seems. Why don't you come up with a family outing for a day on the weekend. You know, why don't we take the girls __________ (fill in the blank). Enjoy the day with the girls. Don't think about OM, don't think about mediation, just enjoy the day and see what happens. If you are somewhere that has flowers or something, buy one (1) and give it to her saying something like it accents you nicely. Little innocent things that can mean a lot taken the right way.

Take things a day at a time, without an end in mind. Part of your problem is you are freaking because of the mediation and you see it as a final step. It's not. People can get divorced and still get back together. Just look at it as a process of time apart, but in your heart she's still your wife and you are still working for that marriage. If you can keep in mind that this is NOT a final stage, maybe you can relax just enough to work on you too. It's important to believe in yourself, and to like yourself.

As for your girls, when it comes down to telling them things, make sure you don't let her lie about it. Make her face her decisions in their faces. Don't let her push it off on you either. Let her know that you will be there with her, but you feel she needs to explain to them why she wants things over with the marriage. Also, try to keep your conversations about this out of their ears. They pick up more than you may realize. I've had way too many fights with my BH that my son heard and/or overheard and it does affect them. Hold your tongue till they are fast asleep.

Try to have little talks about things like, how was your day. Things that will not bring up the A, OM or your marriage. Things that can just get some sort of communication going again. Talk about the girls and their days. Something new they may have done, etc.

Understand that when she says mean things, it's her way of convincing herself. I mean, if she's nice and things are nice then she's wrong to be doing what she's doing. Her saying about how you treated her, and putting it all on you, that's her way of justifying what she's doing. It takes two to make a marriage work, and it takes two for it to crumble. I am willing to bet that she played some part. That there were things she didn't do for you or that at times she wasn't the greatest toward you. It's there in every scenario. Don't point that out, but do know it's true. Accept your end, but know there is more to the picture, and hopefully one day she will accept her end too.

Hang in there, the teary eyes yesterday was a nice sign, but try not to totally capitalize on it. Hold it in your heart as a good thing and go with the flow right now. Be her comforting friend. You see, right now you have to wait for her to see the beauty of your marriage, which she has so nicely blocked out for some time now. You have to wait for her to admit she is wrong, and trust me that is a very hard thing to admit and own.

Her past comments about this man being her best friend. Those were her weak cries for help. They are cries that we almost want you to hear in time, but cries we are afraid to have you hear.

I'm not sure how much help I have been, but I hope some. If there is anything else I can offer, just ask. I'll check in on this thread periodically. If I think of anything else, I'll be sure to add it. Hang in there hun, it is possible, but it is a long hard road - that's well worth it in the end. Know that the people here are great and there for you. Take care, and my best to you and your family.

Marathonman,

How are you? I can see the up and down rollercoaster, just off of your last two posts. Have you started doing what myself and others here have suggested? Have you read up on everything? I am going to try to go back today and tomorrow and post here some of my posts over the last year. I want you to see that everything you are writing, I did also. Everything you believe about this situation, I did also. Everything Mrs. Marathonman is saying, Mrs. Mortarman said also. But, what doesn't have to happen is you make the same mistakes I did. So, first read this stuff because then you will understand that you are neither alone, nor unique in this. Then use these posts that I had in order to understand what your wife will probably do next. By doing that, you can 1. Keep from LBing too much; and 2. Be prepared for anything she throws at you, thus staying off the rollercoaster. In Harley's book, Surviving an Affair, the first couple he uses in there went exactly the same route I did, and you are going. What helped Jon (the betrayed husband) was that he had a lot of money and had access to Dr. Harley whenever he needed. Dr. Harley was able to tell jon what his WW was going to do next. As all of these things began to come true, Jon was able to settle down and trust the plan. And then he was able to move forward, no matter what psycho-babble was going on. And in that environment, the WS cannot endure forever because they must confront their demons on their own. Truth will win out in the end.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">just started mediation yesterday... she is threatening to get me forced out of the house...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, there will be all sorts of threats. Ignore them. She is angry, and you are who she is taking it out on. Stay focused on the plan and ignore threats and PB. But, make sure you are protected also.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she is tired of my crying and does not want to hear any more begging to save the marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right now, begging and crying are big LBs in this stage. Find a MALE friend you can cry around and get things out with. Post here. But DO NOT push her. She will see the crying and begging as nothing more than pushing her, pressuring her, and she is not in the mood for that. You have to put your "game face" on, as Steve Harley told me. "Fake it, until you make it." You are going to have to make yourself believe you are alright, especially when you are around her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she is so far down the road and headed around the corner. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I KNOW! And she is going to head around a few corners for awhile. Things will get worse, I can assure you my friend. But understand, she has to go through this. The Harleys treat this stuff as an addiction. Look at her as if she is addicted to cocaine. Most addicts have to "bottom out" before they are ready to seriously come out of it. All you can do now is make things worse, if you don't follow the plan. She will see the changes. She may not respond to them, but they will build up in her brain. They will actually cause a lot of emotional pain for her. You see, in order to have the affair, and want to leave, she had to make you into a certain image, whether it is deserved or not. For you to not be that, whether or not you ever were, will cause her reasons to do what she is doing to crumble. But, it will take time. One thing I learned from a few people on here was to sort of "sadistically" sit back and enjoy the view. What I mean by that is she is going to go through a whole lot of crazy actions and feelings. And they are going to be VERY painful for her. Just sit back and watch, knowing that the bed she has now made, she must sleep in. that is, until she comes out of the fog...then forgiveness and the love of her husband can reign.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying to be nice but she is no where near coming out of any fog... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay…you are probably right. So, just keep moving forward. So many times over the last year, I wanted to set arbitrary dates. And then they passed and I set a new one. Forget about it. If you want your marriage, then you are in for the long haul. If you don't, then you are justified to go down and get your divorce and take her for whatever you can. Make the decision now. Then get your plan together. Then get busy doing it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just called and cried to her father asking for them to talk to her.. probably will not help.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe, maybe not. My MIL and myself never really got along. But you know what? Thanks to this year of hell, and us talking about her daughter and her grandkids, we have actually grown pretty close…and I even call her "mom" now! You see, there are positives even outside the changes in me and our marriage. I now have a relationship with my MIL that was never possible before. And because of me sticking by her daughter, and taking care of these kids during all of this, she has found a new found respect for me. But, remember, blood is thicker than mud. Don't talk to in laws thinking they are going to gang up on your daughter. The talks are best used to find out how to handle their daughter…remember, they know her better than you do. Get advice. Now, if they are saying "get over it and get on with your life" then just ignore them. But if they can give you constructive info, take it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">still living in the same house and have no intentions of leaving.. neither does she.. she really wants me to leave. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure she does want you to leave. How in the world can she do all of these things comfortably with you around. She believes by getting you out of her face, she will feel better and more at ease about what she is doing. And at first, she will. But remember, reality intercedes sometimes in the fog. Being alone will force her to deal with her demons on her own, with no blame towards you. The house of cards will come crashing down. The only question is "when."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure where she stand with the OM but sure she has strong feelings for him... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she has strong feelings for him. Remember she is a "cocaine" addict. Coke addicts have very strong feelings for the Blow. She is going to have to hit bottom! And that bottom will most likely include a reality check of who OM REALLY is. Wait until he has to meet ALL of her needs. Once I fully got out of the way and forced OM to meet all of Mrs. Mortarman's needs back in December, it took almost 6 weeks…and he was on his way out of my wife's life. Even with a free trip to Florida with him during this. Once reality set in, the fog cannot stand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the girls are going to be so devastated when they are finally told and I just cant bare to see the look in their eyes.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know!! This is the saddest part of all of this, because even if you get your wife back and have a better than ever marriage, these kids will be affected for the rest of their lives. But guess what? What is done is done. You cannot protect them from this. But what you can do is keep them focused on their lives, to help them through this. Concentrate on this. And also remember, it is those girls that may be the biggest reason your wife eventually wakes up. They are the biggest link you have to your wife. And they are the biggest link your wife has back to reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying to change but she will not open her eyes to see.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She will! WSs ALWAYS wake up! The issue is when. Maybe once she wakes up, you might be gone for good. That would be very sad. But it might happen. Maybe she wakes up sooner than you think, but still doesn't come home because she has not seen the changes in you. My friend, work on you. She WILL see the changes. Then when she wakes up, she will believe the changes. Be prepared.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want her to know that I can be the best husband if only given a chance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And she will, if you will stay with the plan.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, once the assets and everything is done and over with, there will be no coming back.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not true. My wife and I divided everything up…she moved into her apartment…and then 6-7 months later, we are reconciling. Do not get caught up in the day-to-day crap. My pastor told me back in January that even divorce does not signal the end. That he had just remarried a couple that had been divorced for 5 years! Now, to me that is a little long. But, the point is that statistically, most people in our shoes end up married to their WSs in the end The odds are in your favor, MM. Now decide if you are willing to do the work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can only try to be the best I can and hope for the best.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY right!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">did I mention about praying.. I hope God has me in his hands right now because I sure feel lonely.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are a Christian and have been saved, then He does have you in His hands right now. Your daughters too. And if your wife is a Christian, she too is in His hands. Give her over to God. He is much better equipped to bring her home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">guessits all over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If YOU want it to be. If you want your marriage, then continue to be married. Continue to love your wife. Continue to improve yourself. Continue moving you and your family down the road of life…she will eventually catch up to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tried to get her to write down how I can be a better mm.. she just told me to accept that the marraige is over and live with it..,.get on with your life because your wasting my time.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pscho babble. For now, she will do this. But notice your next post below. While she says get over it, then she actually starts telling you what you asked for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she also said that I did not respect her.. I am trying my best...but with the OM in the picture, I find it hard...she says that I never respected her.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is the nugget of truth in the PB. You asked for how to be a better MM. She says you didn't respect her. Okay, now figure out how. Did you ignore her or her ideas? I did this with my wife. This was one of the first things she said when I asked her to tell me what I did wrong. Did you belittle her? Think now…think back. Here is the next thing you can work on. I know it is hard to respect her while she is doing this. But you can show respect even in this by not Lbing, and by respecting her when she talks about or does things that are worthy of respect. Point out the good things she is doing. One of the biggest ways to do this is with the girls. Talk about what she thinks about signing them up for soccer, or whatever. When she puts in her two cents, then congratulate her, tell her how great whatever she came up with was. My wife has been in nursing school during all of this. And even though she has lost her mind when it comes to her personal life, she is kicking butt in her school. She is in the top of her class. So I constantly praise her for what she is doing. When we talked, I would ask how things were at school, what happened at the hospital, etc. If the kids got sick, I would ask her what she thought we should do. Even when I hurt my back, and I already knew what I should do about it, I called her and asked her what I should do. And the next day, I called her back to tell her how much better my back is feeling and thanked her for her advice. MM…these are suggestions. Figure out what she meant here, and then work on it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sorry for the babbling but not sure what I am trying to say. Guess I feel that my situation is hopeless since I am on divorce road..there is no turning back.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's okay. This is the place to babble…not in front of WW. The situation is not hopeless. How big is your God? If you have read anything on this site, you will see that statistically, the OM should be saying that things for him and your wife are hopeless (only about 3% of those relationships lead to marriage). You have God and the truth on your side.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a miracle is all that will solve this one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While this may be true, just understand that miracles do happen. Look at me and my wife. But, you also need to understand that you can hinder the miracle. So get out of God's way. Do what He tells you to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will just continue to try to find the faults address them and try to fix them.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep this up!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am scared to lose this woman and I cant imagine living without her…</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While understandable, you have to get to the point where you can accept either outcome. Only then can you truly let go and let God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">its hard to accept that she does not love me .. but I know that there is still love somewhere in her heart.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM…this was a nonsensical statement. You don't want to accept that she doesn't love you, but you know there is still love in her. Well, if there is still love in her (and there is!), then why would you have to accept that she doesn't love you? Your wife is not living in reality…don't you go there also. Stay rational…one of you has to!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">last night I sat on the couch as she cried...I had called the om wife to let her know i had good reason to believe there was an affair.. she was shocked .. the next day I asked her f to go for a coffee and she declined saying that she spoke to the OM and she trusts him.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good. Don't worry about OM and his wife. She may trust him, but now you have given her doubt. She will follow up. Things will become very difficult in that household. And with OM and your wife. But your wife crying on the couch is a good beginning. Let her…just listen to her. Don't try to help her solve her dilemma. Just listen for now. Be there if she wants to cry on your shoulder. Just listen, and she will begin to lean on you and trust you. This will be the beginning toward her wanting to come out of the fog. But just remember, it is just the beginning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WW now is on the other side with no one maybe she is coming out of the fog...I dont know but I love her too much to give up.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, don't give up. Be smart. All WSs are the same, for the most part. Stay with the plan. She may be starting to come out of the fog. Who knows? Remember, if her and OM are on the outs, she will be in a lot of pain. And she will have a lot to deal with. So, coming out of the fog may take awhile. You cannot rush it. But you can certainly cause her to stay there longer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">today I plan to go buy flowers for her…she also says not to be thinking we will get back together.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course. She has a long way to go. So, buy the flowers if YOU want to, and expect nothing in return. Not even a thank you. This will all take time MM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">we have divorce on the horizon if she does not come around.. but again I cant move out.. she will have to go…</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right! But divorce may never happen. Again, look at my posts and how close we have come to divorce. And it still never happened. As you improve MM, at the same time, make her do all the divorce work. How many on here have watched their WSs say they are going to get the divorce, only to have them pull back when they thought they were ready to do it? There will be many "battles" in this "war." You don't have to win every battle. What you need to concentrate on is winning the war.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if she takes the girls the doors is always open for her.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you think that you can handle the girls also, then don't let her take them. I didn't. The kids have lived with me this whole time. And it helped her with her reality check, because she no longer had me around, nor her kids. Except win they visited once or twice a week. That wore her down immensely. You are their father. Be their father.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">again there has to be a major deposit to the love bank and go into over drive with kindness... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">while I understand what you are saying, you must understand that you don't have to sit there with a smile on your face while she is doing something to hurt you. If she is "going off" on you, then just tell her that you need a break, and then leave. Don't fight. Just leave. You do not have to be a doormat. But you must balance being true to yourself, with caring for your wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I sincerely hope that things work out for you as I do for me.. if it does not I'll end up being a better catch for someone else.. but again.. I know in my heart that God will take us in his arms and bring us together again.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the right attitude. Keep it!

In His arms.

<small>[ March 13, 2003, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mortarman- you really inspire me. Thank you. I really listen to what you tell others, and it helps me. I suggest the book Love Must Be Tough
to all BS's.

my advice - stay put, dont be too hard on yourself, dont plead, but try to work on yourself to the end of making yourself happy, whatever there will be.... you should know that your wife's anger is a typical reaction, partly to "justify" her past actions, partly simply an answer to an emotional overload (shame, guilt, being torn apart etc). wish you strength & stamina which should come easy to you as a marthonrunner. btw - what's your best time? you beat 3:47?

Hey MM,

Listen to Mortarman... he's giving you some great first-hand advice!

Don't leave your home and don't give up!

Semper Fi,
RIF90

mortarman.
thanks a million..she seemed to be in a better mood yesterday when she came home.Guess that she had a chasnce to speak to the OM and was probably told that he still wants to be with her..he has said inthe past that things were not good with his wife..so he was just conforting my WW to belive that things are going to be okay.. she raelly wants to start something with this guy. as she says nothing has really happened.. really apprec iate all the kind word from you guys , it is really helping with the couping. again please tell me I'm on the right path..1) dont leave..2) make house as peaceful 3) be a freind.. she is stuck in the past and cant open her eyes to see that I can be the better husband to her.. but I have it in my heart that she only wants this guy in her bed and cannot wait. she is not willing to try to work things out.. I will only work on myself and try to show her the new and improved marathonman. Mediation is really going to suck .. her mind is set..and aagin its going to be a battle to bring her back.. If it is felt that all WS come out of the fog I only hope that I'll be there for her when she does.. but since she says that the OM has been her best friend for a few years. she may think that he is her soul mate.. but again.. she may also realize that the guy may just be a pathetic loser who is trying to use her for his own gain... I am worried since both have told that each other will be leaving their spouses..I only hope that the OM's wife gave him a big enough blast.. but in my heart I think that there are a lot of lies floating around.. mortarman.... how do i find your threads so I can go back and look..