i have been up since 4am. i cant sleep with all thats going on. i am so beside myself that he is blaming me (read above post.) i think about him wanting to take our pruners and a saw to trim her tree, and i argued no that she can trim her own damn trees.

i bet i blew the indifferent attitude i was showing w/that argument. it didnt last, just enough for me to get huffy about him taking them.

i keep, again, going over this, and over all of what happened yesterday.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO LOSING IT.

Kuljey,

A little advice from a WH (who is starting to come out of it)....

All of this talk of "fog" concerns me. Just like he blames you for everything, blaming things on a "fog" is an easy way out. Whether it is "fog" or not, it's how he feels at the moment.

Whether it is or not, though is highly irrelevant. As Fonzee (my W, by the way) said, you need to make him feel SAFE. You need to show him what he will be missing if he continues on the path he is on. SHOW it with your actions, not with words (especially harsh ones). You can gently tell him you love him and want to work on your marriage, but any harsh arguements will lead him straight back to OW thinking "how could I have stayed married as long as I did?"

Be strong and work on yourself. Stay active and be a great mother for your kids.

I'm not sure what others would think of this, but I would also solicit the help of your daughters...without their actually knowing. Strongly encourage them to spend time with their Dad. When they return, talk to them about what a great time they had with him. It sounds like the strain in the relationship between him and D's is giving him something else to hold against you. He may think that you are telling them stuff behind his back and trying to use them against him to "guilt" him coming back. Whether there is any truth to that, I don't know, but if there is, don't do it. If there isn't, unfortuantely, it doesn't matter if he is feeling that way. Yes, I realize that none of this is fair to you, but it's what you need to do if you want to make him feel safe. If he is feeling "guilted" into coming back it will lead to more and more resentment.

The way it sounds like your H dismissed your Grandmother's passing was completely insensitive. However, from the "blah blah blah's" in your post, it looks like you dismissed his concerns about being deployed also. Just keep in mind that he has concerns too and they are very real to him. Unfortuantely, to him right now, his concerns are more important than yours. Again, it is not FAIR but I can't stress to you how important it is to make him feel safe and to SHOW him what a good life he could have with you.

As far as him talking about getting a divorce while he is deployed, you should probably just gently try and difuse that idea. Say something like "why does it really matter to get it done so soon? You won't be here anyway, so it's not like you have to live your day to day like a married couple. When you return then we can talk and sort everything out the right way instead of rushing into something."

Hope some of this helps...

Cantthinkofaname:
The talk of fog gives me hope. I hope he is in fog for now. I am not sure how to show him with actions that he will be missing a lot if he continues on his path to D. I am so afraid to make a move, ie telling him I love you and want to work on marriage because he has told me repeatedly he want a D and for me to “NOT be optimisitc I am not coming back.”

I do not want to do something to force him to go back to OW and have them become closer because he is venting to her how awful I am. What I am doing is keeping up the kids, house, their activities—and on top of that I am recovering from major surgery, am in counseling for severe depression brought on by this stuff, and am taking meds for it incase you were wondering.

The argument about the pruners and saw he was going to take was because I feel why should he use our stuff to help her out. I can see her being controlling/bossing him to do it. Or he is doing it to make her family (who life next to her w/in same driveway even) happy with him that he is “doing” things for them.

I have told my WH that the relationship that is deteriorating between him and his daughter is just because of himself. Last night he chewed her out cuz she was talking to a friend (she is 11 and starting to use the telephone a lot). He grabbed the phone from her and said to the friend she has to call you back, didn’t give her a chance to tell them herself. Then she asked to give him some reasons as to why I am the blame for him leaving. He had none. She called her grandmother she was so upset to talk about it, then we talked about it later. The 5 yr old is NO problem, she enjoys the time and just says she is angry because she took our daddy..she is mad because he loves ____ (gutter rat.) I encourage the oldest to talk to him about how she feels because she is holding in a lot of anger. She lost him once when he left her and her mother at the drop of a hat, then she says he brought me here to be a family then he leaves me again. So the way I see it, this is between them and if I get more in the middle he chews ME OUT. He is the one who is the guilty one, he is trying to push it on me (so ppl say.) The oldest talks to me a lot about how she feels and the little one is acting out more, saying I hate daddy and I hate ___ (gutter rat.) This is how they are coping. He probably resents me, but the oldest is old enough, and has been thru a lot in her young life to know what is going. I overheard a conversation with a friend and her on the telephone and they discussed that he just wants her for a lover. This was last night after he left and I was in shock. For a 11 yr old I think she is right for some reason…I think he is just thinking with the wrong part of his body. My stepdaughter was taken from her mother for neglect. She was living in a car, staying at different ppls houses, and left alone a lot. She has learned so much for her young age. All I am doing is trying to do the best I can with a horrible situation—as far as the children are concerened.

I was hurt that he wasn’t a little more sensitive about my grandmother, who was always had a open door for him. He was blah blah blahing was my way of skipping the details of what he was telling me. He was telling me about the briefing he got on possible deployment and what I need to do and that he was needing to spend a bit of time talking with me about these details, they involved the girls and myself as WIFE of a soldier possibly going away. Now, this makes it hard. He is living w/his girlfriend/gutter rat/supposed ex friend of mine, and I am sad he will be leaving, but he has left me already. I am going to be left behind to pay his bills (he has SEVERAL credit cards he got in his name only that he has been trying to be responsible for) and keep things going like he was living here, except his clothes he took from our home will remain (as he says) at the other house. So I listened to his briefing of the details of what could happen and when. He is wanting to go and may not go because of medical issues. So he is not scared by any means. I listened intently and stared him straight in the eyes as he game me details. At one point, again I was looking at him intently, he said he couldn’t remember stuff, covered his eyes and continued to talk with eyes covered. I think you read on my other post that when he came in he said I look good. I am so shocked by that statement. Does it mean something?

He is not going to divorce me till afterwards HE SAYS. So, I am lost on the making him, showing him that it is safe and we can have a good life. I thought I was. House was spotless, it smelled good he said, the kids were dressed nice, hair done—all of us.

OK - I didn't get all of that from the previous posts, so it sounds like you are doing a good job. Stay on those meds and try to be happy for yourself.

Yes, saying you looked good is a good sign, especially if it is out of character for him. Just don't get your hopes up too much. I have heard many saying coming out of the "fog" was quick...but let me tell you that if that's what I was in, it is not quick at all. That's why I have a little trouble with the concept myself.

As far as what to do to show him what he is missing, I'll try to think of some ideas. What does he like to do? Does he have any hobbies? He seems to want/need to talk to you about his possible deployment. Could you ask him to go out to talk about the issues he needs to talk about? AND do it while doing something he enjoys...even if it is out of your comfort zone? This could make him see you in a new light. I know one of the arguements I made to myself re: divorce was the "nothing in common with W" arguement. When she tried to start finding things in common with me, it helped a lot. Does he like golf, pool, or something? I know you said you are recovering from surgery, so some physical stuff may be out. Is there anything you can think of?

I'll try to think of more ideas and post later...

Oh...one other thing. I think many might disagree with me, but don't keep calling and leaving messages and then asking if he'd got them and where he is ESPECIALLY if he is not late yet. I know that when you are in recovery, you will need to keep tabs on him in order for him to regain your trust, but right now he sees it as controlling or nagging. Right now he doesn't want to face the thought of returning home and you always checking up on him.

I hope I am not upsetting you more. I'm just trying to offer some views from the "other side"...what he might be thinking. Again, I know it is not FAIR to you, it is just what it is.

Cantthinkofaname/fonzee/Kuljey
Why are all our stories the same..I have a ww who is either in an EA or PA with OM..guess all the suggestionscome down to making things safe for the WS return..I am presently not doing a good job with plan A.. but thrying to back off on the LBS...please hang in there as I am trying as well.. have faith that God will make things right..and Pray..
***Cantthinkofaname...please take a look at my thread **shes leaving me** and add any advise..I'm running out of time..Kuljey hang in there...make it your plan to be the best Kuljey and if in the end your H does not come back.. you will be all the better for the next R..take care

Kuljey,

The problem is: he has parts of himself that love you, which he is suppressing, and parts of himself which loves her, which he is expressing. It is difficult and painful to feel both those parts at the same time -- so he has to suppress one and vent the other. That leads to the brusqueness, coldness, etc., that I am experiencing and it is indeed hard to get through. Otherwise he would have the emotional pain of terribly conflicting emotions and the knowledge of the pain he has inflicted on others.

I think part of making it "safe" is making it okay to remember and express the parts that love you, however battered they are within both of you. But if you cling to each expression of love -- then he will back off, because he's afraid of his own contradictions.

One technique I've tried: people tend to think in opposites. If you say yes, he'll say no. So I repeat back what he says to me with more emphasis later on -- e.g., "Well, since you never loved me, then, why don't you..." This almost invariably brings a response like, "I NEVER said I never loved you..." It pushes him back into the part that wants to assert some feeling for me. Push the thinking farther than he's willing to -- give him a chance to start backpedalling on his statements. Observe carefully; this may not work, but I have found it often effective.

Back in the Vietnam protest era, we had a phrase, "Bring the war home." That's what I'm trying to do. Let him experience the conflicts within himself, rather than externalizing them and projecting them onto me. The less I react to his statements of fog, the more he has to stew in them himself because he is not successfully provoking me.

Also, the wish to provoke me is part of his strategy to make ME a problem, to suppress that side of himself that does love me.

Kuljey:

AMM makes some good points. Be careful if you do try that though. It may work, probably will work, but it could stop being effective if he gloms onto what you're doing.

I did something like this with my WW a few months ago, when she seemed to want to blameshift to make me feel bad for things going awry in our M 12 years ago, and for me not getting her "hints" that something was wrong. I said, "Tell you what, I will happily take the blame for everything that's wrong with our M, and give you credit for everything that's right with it. Does that help?" And she came to my defense and said "no, it wasn't all your fault." At the time, it felt like a minor triumph for US, but it quickly faded. But you know? We need to cherish those little, mutual triumphs for what they are - incremental growth steps back together. It will take a LOT of growth on both our parts to make our M healthy again, but as Can't says, while it's going on you do need to be sure that the overall tone is one of a safe place for the WS to return to.

I hope you're okay today,
-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I think part of making it "safe" is making it okay to remember and express the parts that love you, however battered they are within both of you. But if you cling to each expression of love -- then he will back off, because he's afraid of his own contradictions. i dont get this....

One technique I've tried: people tend to think in opposites. If you say yes, he'll say no. So I repeat back what he says to me with more emphasis later on -- e.g., "Well, since you never loved me, then, why don't you..." This almost invariably brings a response like, "I NEVER said I never loved you..." It pushes him back into the part that wants to assert some feeling for me. Push the thinking farther than he's willing to -- give him a chance to start backpedalling on his statements. Observe carefully; this may not work, but I have found it often effective.

Back in the Vietnam protest era, we had a phrase, "Bring the war home." That's what I'm trying to do. Let him experience the conflicts within himself, rather than externalizing them and projecting them onto me. The less I react to his statements of fog, the more he has to stew in them himself because he is not successfully provoking me.

Also, the wish to provoke me is part of his strategy to make ME a problem, to suppress that side of himself that does love me.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I DO NOT UNDERSTAND..please explain

also, i want to know if what i said about the pruners and saw arugment was a mistake/blowing the plan A.

I am not sure, well no i am sure, i dont understand how to make it a safe home to return to. he calls her place the other house. i am just waiting for a miracle i guess...

does the noticing the way i look a hint at how he feels...ya think?

anyway, anyone out there...help/tips..etc

What I meant is that, at least with my H, if each expression of affection or kindness he makes is met on my side with an avalanche of my enthusiasm or emotional need (worse yet, trying to find out what he "meant") he quickly withdraws. Especially, he doesn't want to have anything he says construed as a commitment on his part.

I have to be very cool about his positive expressions -- smile, be pleasant, but not seize on them like water in a desert, which of course they are.

As Schnarch said in Passionate Marriage, a commitment at this point is meaningless because he lies and may not follow through. So why push for one?

Update:

WH called at 8am this am to ask if i know his login name for his army ako acct, i didnt remember it. I gave him ones we always use, and he said he tried them. Then he asked me to look them up on our computer where it probably would be and help figure it out. He was on his way to the base here to get an ID card he tells me. He also informed me of a conversation he had w/a JAG officer about child support etc.. i asked him and why is this important now. he said because it goes w/the papers, needs to filled in. (hes referring to the uncontested divorce papers he gave me to fill in my portion..which i havent, and dont want to.)

kuljey:

Remember, if you want to tell him straight out that you don't intend to sign the DV papers, feel free to do so. Trying to save your M is not a LB, though he'll probably think so.

Just stay upbeat. Good plan A stuff, okay?

regards,
-Qfwfq

well, WH called 2more times today askin for me to do this and that for him. one was to help contact this army help site for his ako password/log in name, and i said i would help. then he called back that he wants me to bring his 11 yr old to the base on Wed to get her a id card. he said he would call me later to see if he is going to pick up the 11 yr old tonight after soccer practice. well, that 11 yr old does not want him to pick her up. and i will have to tell him i cant take her because my grandmothers funeral is late that morning, and obviously i will be there.

so, is what i am doing being stupid, letting him walk all over me, or is it just being nice. OR he could be using me to get what he wants, needs. should i be doing this..i just want him back.

kuljey:

I don't think you're doing too much for him, and you certainly aren't just serving him hand and foot because you can't leave the funeral and his D doesn't want to see him, and you plan to tell him about that...

Let him make the effort with his D to see her and spend time with her. I think that, overall, he keeps calling because he doesn't want to lose his family.

I know you want him back. But by being careful about your plan A, you have a very good chance of not onlly getting him back, but having a better relationship together than you ever had before.

-Qfwfq

he gets mad at me that she doesnt want to see him. and i am the bad guy to have to tell him then he gets all huffy. he tries to tell her to not take this personal he left cuz it was MY FAULT.

i figure if he sees me doing the wifely things, he will remember wife..hmmm.

i received a email from his mother w/condolences about my grandmother. so he obviously told her about it, because i didnt. .... what do ya think "Q".

kuljey:

I think you're doing fine. But maybe think of what you're "doing" as less "wifely" things and think of them more as good self-esteem building motherly things.

I still think he's got to take responsibility for trying to improve his R with his D. You're doing plenty in that area. He'll probably continue to blame you for everything, but I'm betting that the "satisfaction" of doing that eventually will wear off. Doesn't make it any more tolerable while it's going on, of course.

Please take care,
-Qfwfq