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I'm a firm believer that you can't build a strong house on a weak foundation. Since I don't have all the facts, I'm guessing at some of this.

She probably does have a firm foundation with this man. Met him under honest circumstances. Fell in love with him for the right reasons. Decided to create a future together.

Somewhere along the line, they lost their way. The marriage got stale. I know that due to the fog of the affair, both of you believe you were meant for each other. But if the conditions for an affair were there, he could have met another woman to be his "soul mate". Please read either SAA or previous posts to understand about the fog and about the euphoria created when "falling in love" with the OP.

You think you want a future with this man. But before trying to build further, please think about the foundation you've built upon. Lies and fantasies. He's cheating on you right now and probably misrepresenting the truth to you. I'd gamble that he's telling both of you that he "can't" leave the other one. There's a reason that if someone marries the OP, there's only a 5% chance of that marriage working out. And I know you're saying to yourself, "But this is different." Believe me, they all feel like they're madly in love and have found their soul mate if they leave their spouse over it. I suspect 5% who do remain married to the OP are just too stubborn to admit they've made a terrible mistake.

Think about your goals in life and what you're worth. Think about what you want a marriage to be built upon. If you can be honest in yourself, you're going to be surprised.

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Red,
He's living with his wife, right?

If he truly loved you and wanted to be with you, somewhere in 2 years, he would done so.

The wife can't trust him, if he's waiting to end the affair until she does, well he's set up an excellent Catch 22.

Why are you with him? Love?

Why on earth do you think you deserve to be treated so badly by this scoundrel who is not offering you a clear future?

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ms. Red
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Member # 26437

posted March 18, 2003 10:01 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Miss Priss:
[QB][QUOTE]Ms. Red
Junior Member
Member # 26437

posted March 18, 2003 08:49 AM
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She has nothing to do with your relationship with your MM does she?

See, I'm not sure if I think that. I think as maybe bad as it sounds, we are all entangled with each other. I'm not saying that in a boasting kind of way, I just always saw it that way. I am probably not making sense with that one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all.....you are not all entangled with each other.....unless you are related to or have a relationship with his wife such as a friendship.....which I didn't see mention of.

You seem to be acting more in a way like you are the new wife and she is the ex and you want to know why she does this or that.......which in a sense is odd since there are no children involved. If she isn't bothering you then I'm not sure why your are bothered or even wasting your time trying to figure HER out.

Maybe you should spend more time trying to figure out what YOU want out of life than what makes her tick.

Do you want her husband to yourself?
Where you hoping that either she would divorce him or he would decide to leave her so you 2 could be together?

If the answer to both of those questions were yes.......then you are wasting your time. He's playing both of you and he has very little respect for either one of you.

He's a classic WS.

You're spending so much time thinking about things that don't even have anything to do with you.

Think about it......is this how you want to spend the next 5 years?

If it is.....then you bring it all on yourself. It's not her fault.....it's not his fault.....it's the decisions you yourself are making that makes you feel the way you do.

Not passing judgment.....just calling it as I see it.

Nobody put a gun to my H's head and MADE him have an A......he made that decision on his own. The feelings he had and the things he went through were his fault.....not mine and not the OW's......we didn't make him do it.

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]</small>

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I'm glad you came in here, Ms. Red. Perhaps you can answer some questions from BSs? I'm really curious here, it isn't a flame of any kind!

Firstly, why would an OW go into another woman's home, violating her privacy, and have sex in the BS's bed, or on the couch, or wherever?

Suppose your BF sneaked another woman into your apartment/house, and had sex with her there? Would you feel violated? How would you feel about this woman using your bathroom to pee, drinking your coffee or liquor, soiling your bedding and towels. Would you consider it okay for the two of them to be cuddled up on your couch, watching your TV?

Why would an OW accept expensive gifts from a MM? He's literally stealing the money. This is marital assets, and should it come to a divorce, the court would almost certainly demand the return of such expensive gifts/or the refunding of the money to the marital estate. How do you feel about that, being an accessory to theft? Would you like your BF to dip into your bank account and buy presents for another woman with that money? Remember, the marriage service says "With all my worldly goods I thee endow."

These are two things that I always wonder about.

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Red-how about taking a chance. Why not cut all contact with him. You are not giving yourself a chance for a real love. Two years? You are valuing yourself at such a low level. Have you ever been married? I am certain that he once had that excitment with his wife. We did. But reality is tough. The affair is fantasy. You are there with open arms and Victoria's secrets. Far from real life. If you have ever been married then you know this, but if not...run! He needs to make a decision in his marriage without you. If he choses to end it, well then so be it. No one wins this way. If you are so sure of his love, then set him free. I don't think you are that sure however.

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Ms. Red,

I am just so sorry you are involved with a MM. You must know that a relationship with a MM is not a good thing. The MM is bonded with his wife in marriage, and God does not want that marriage broken. Of course the wife wants to believe her husband, she may or may not, but she will likely try to believe her husband even if he is lying, while he tells her he is being honest.

It is quite perplexing to have your husband lie to you, when you have put your soul and trust in this man.

I hope you will see the hurt your choice to be involved with him is also causing. You can choose not to be in this sort of relationship. I hope you will choose to end it. If the two of you are so in love and his marriage is so unsalvagable, then let him divorce as he may choose and then choose a relationship with him... even that in my opinion would be wrong, b/c you have helped destroy his relationship with his rightful wife, you are coming between their sacred and holy bond.

Even if you are not a believer, I am sure you want commitment from this man, and he is not giving it to you, he is having both of you- you can end that by not allowing it.

Respect yourself and him by ending this secret and all the lies that go with it.

I know you must hurt and are only human, but to continue to repeat the wrong, does not make it ok, even though you have already been doing it... it only makes it worse to continue in the wrong.

He can recover his marriage and family if you go, but you are helping destroy more than your own life and that I hope you will pray about.

Obviously my opinion is that of a hurt wife of a mm who cheated, my h now wishes he had not done this to me , himself, or our children and even the extended families who are hurt by it... it is a mistake that hurts much deeper than you likely realize. Please seek help in individual counseling or in faith with your higher power.

Hope and Prayers,

Honey

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ANYONE remember where that post is describing cakeman???

Red, you are half a meal for this greedy adulterer. His wife is the other half. He likes having both. Welcome to the world of enabling a man who cannot decide.

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He'll be different with you, you're special.
Author Unknown

You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't have with his wife. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are - and he's the first person to really do that, isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you. He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable. He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you. He's really sincere this time.

He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if he told his wife the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his [censored] with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.

He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women. That doesn't mean that he'll be turn emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?

So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU.

So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him.

And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues.

Even if in his past, he DID say, "Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly ... It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance". It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." ... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with his wife, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.

He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, rubbing baby oil all over you, making love, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you.

So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two started up again): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.

Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special.

Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his wife. He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.

He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.

The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if his ex doesn't want to have anything to do with him, and now think he is mentally ill, it must be because SHE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with HER TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU.
This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.

Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life.

And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices for you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.

He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.

It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HIM. Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.

And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting emotionlly abusive again because of something YOU did.

And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won't withhold information, or distort or omitt the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!

And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.

And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after he abandon her, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU.

And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him.

And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate.

He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.

You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right?

And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man.

But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence to other women - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.

He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now.

You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.

YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his [censored] together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.

He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU.

You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right?

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Ms. Red,

You've been told a lot on here. You know what my advice to you is?

Call her. Meet her. Yes, talk to her.

Leave the man out of it. Perhaps if the two of you could have a real conversation and even "compare notes", the answers to many of your questions would come out.

Would you share your income tax return with her?

You're sharing a heck of a lot more. Call her. Talk to her. See what happens.

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: bhf1111 ]</small>

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Resilient. All I can say is WOW!!!!

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bhf1111
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posted March 18, 2003 12:33 PM
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Ms. Red,

You've been told a lot on here. You know what my advice to you is?

Call her. Meet her. Yes, talk to her.

Leave the man out of it. Perhaps if the two of you could have a real conversation and even "compare notes", the answers to many of your questions would come out.

Would you share your income tax return with her?

You're sharing a heck of a lot more. Call her. Talk to her. See what happens.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is the purpose of this?

First of all.....the W shouldn't be any of her business.
Second of all......what would her MM think? Most of them would see it as a betrayal. Do you really think the W will keep it a secret that the OW called her? Nope....and when HE knows.....he'll think that the OW did it just to rat him out.....which is pretty much what it would look like.

Leave the man out of it? What are they going to do.....compare notes to see which one has more going for them?

Ms Red......I can tell you waht will happen if you call her. YOU will be the bad guy.....to him and to her.

You aren't necessarily the bad guy now....since you aren't forcing him to have an affair with you.

YOU are not the one hurting his wife.....he is doing that by himself.

My advice.......leave this guy....and look for a relationship with a single guy.....one that doesn't have to lie to be with you. One that doesn't have to lie to you to make you happy.....because he is lying to you if he says he is't happy at home. With no children involved....there is nothing keeping him there....unless he wants to be there.

This guy has his cake and he's eating it too. He's got his wife whom he married....and then he's got you when he's tired of playing with his wife.

He's a total schmuck.......just like my H was when he was doing the same thing that this guy is doing now.

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I don't often post here anymore...but felt a need to respond to this post.

The advice and information given to you has been 'top notch', take it. Statistically speaking, it is highly unlikely he will leave his M and then marry you. Even if he did...do you want a man like this? If he did it to her he WILL do it to you. Maybe, it's time for you to start examining your self with the help of a IC. I don't understand why you would do this to yourself, it's so self-destructive. Do you feel you don't deserve anything better? If he were your 'soul mate', he wouldn't leave you on the sidelines...you would walk beside him in the light of day and share all of his life. It's time to ask yourself why you are settling for this and don't you deserve better?

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: mgm ]</small>

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Red,

Please get out of this now, run away! This man is using both you and his W. You have a conscience, listen to it. Everything Resilient posted is 100% textbook A. Nothing will be different. He's a pig in Prince's clothing. Respect yourself and OM's W and break it off, heal, and find a SINGLE man who can *honestly* give you the love and committment you're looking for.

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Miss Priss,

warning Thread jack!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

While on one level I want to agree with you that an affair has nothing to do with the BS...I also somewhat disagree with that thought process...and here's why...(and note this is not to argue for arguements sake...but more a debatable look at the BS and OP role...
and in my opinion...

I have seen a re-occurring theme in some OP mantra that the relationship/affair has nothing to do with them...
the line that they often say that makes me go grrrrr is the old...

"I'm not the one that took vows with the spouse"
and
"If it wasn't me that ended up as the OP it would have been someone else anyways..so might as well of been me."

I believe in marriage vows...the ones I took as well as the ones other took....
and that for me to take my vows seriously and to have meaning apply to them..I need to take other peoples vows seriously and apply that same meaning to them....

This helps me in defining boundaries that should not be crossed regardless of any of the verbage someone uses to minimize and disregard their own vows....

I believe that even God realizes that their are times in our lives that we meet people who we find attractive, interesting, and can connect to when we put our energy there....that is why at most religious weddings I have attended there is that little warning from the person in charge...right before the big smooch...where someone usually states in a deep voice...

"what God has joined together let no man put asunder" and then smmoooooooch... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We are each called to be the person not be involved in that putting asunder...and when we cross that line we are responsible for damage caused.

Know that I am not saying you don't believe in vows or value these things...I am more attempting to say that OP can not really remove themselves from their accountability in their actions...
though some often try to....I call it denial at best and just plain lying at worst...

OP have a hard time convincing me that they value vows...vows have a global community meaning and do not exclusively exist only within two persons...
OP that say they want to take vows with the person that they participated in breaking between others...are in my opinion the exact definition of hypocracy...

i see the OP directly emeshed with the BS...a direct cause of great pain/harm to them...

sorry for the threadjack...
ARK

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Ms Red,

I want to be gentle here. You are in the position that my former lover was in. She thought that my fiance was not right for me and bad and all those things.

I lied to her just as I lied to the woman who matterred to me. There is nothing flattering about being chosen as an affair partner. I told the OW what she wanted to hear so I could go by her house, screw her, then leave. She was an outlet, a plaything, someone to be used and discarded.

Oh, but he loves you right? Then why does he leave you alone at night and go back to his wife? Which lie is he using, I have a comprehensive list... Pick one:

1. I am going to leave her for you, but this is a bad time.

2. I love you and wish I was married to you but I don't want to hurt her

3. Let's just focus on us, what we have is real, I'll make a change, I promise.

Something close to that? Here is the translation of what that means : "I like coming over here and using you for great sex with no responsibility... I can come over, let you stroke my ego, screw you senseless and then return home after showering your filthiness off of me"

Love you? Hardly. He loves having sex with you, loves pretending he is a good man and seeing you believe it.

He has zero respect for you. He likes having a woman he loves and respects (wife) and a prostitute he doesn't have to pay in you. What a deal!

Your instinct is to tell me I am full of it and don't know him right? Guess again. I WAS him. I can see you thinking the betrayed wives here who rip into you are just plain jealous and bitter and not believing them... won't work on me, I can recite his whole playbook because I used to run the same plays. The lies i told to the woman I did love were horrible and I feel awful for having done it. Lying to the OW??? Doesn't phase me a bit. I said whatever I needed to to get her to behave like a callgirl, showered her off and left. My pets mean more than she did to me.

Let's say he leaves his wife for you... in two years you'll find him lying to another woman as gullible as you while screwing her brains out.

Wake up. If you were more than recreation he would not go back to his wife. You are going to cause her so much pain that she may never love again. She may wind up killing herself or him OR YOU as a result of the grief. Go look in the mirror - you are screwing another woman's husband and afterward he discards you like garbage and goes home. He may make you feel loved for a few minutes... Loved? Don't fool yourself. If he has not left his wife and is lying to her it tells me very clearly that he loves using you but has no respect for you.

Your choice. Be a person of integrity or a lying thief. You are taking what is not yours and trying to put a good face on it by understanding his wife? Understand she is being betrayed and you are helping. If you knowingly allow him to treat you like a whore than what does that make you?

Sorry if this hurts, quit lying to yourself and start living an honest life instead of trying to justify your deceitful and selfish life.

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There's nothing, really, to try to understand about why a BS does what he or she does, much the same way it's pointless for a BS to try and understand what WS/OP does or doesn't do. It's an amazingly irrational thing all of us are dealing with. To try and reationalize -- or make sense of it -- it is futile. The understanding comes in knowing you have choices and the ability to act on them now. You're ahead of the game right now ... moreso than MM is ... moreso than many of the other OPs that come here are. You have an opportunity to do what's right.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Miss Priss:

Ms Red......I can tell you waht will happen if you call her. YOU will be the bad guy.....to him and to her.

You aren't necessarily the bad guy now....since you aren't forcing him to have an affair with you.

YOU are not the one hurting his wife.....he is doing that by himself.

[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps it's because I am a BS, but those words REALLY steamed me...NO she isn't "forcing"him to have illicit sex with her, but niether is HE "forcing" her to become a cheat and a liar...SHE CHOOSES TO DO THAT!!! The OW and the WH BOTH choose to inflict pain on the BW...While SHE has no choice but to deal with it and go on.

Ms.Red,
You are an adult with a mind of your own...you KNOW what you are doing is deeply hurtful to another human being and intrinsicly WRONG...yet you still try to find "reasons" why it's "acceptable" (such as trying to "figure out" the reasons behind the BW's thought process that says she chooses to believe and trust the man that SWORE before God and witnesses that he would love her, honor her and protect her, forsaking ALL OTHERS, keeping him ONLY unto her for as long as they both shall live)

An A is NOT a "mistake" it is a concious decision that two foolish, selfish people make when their wants are the ONLY thing they care about.

The ONLY thing YOU need to "figure out" is how can you be happy being ANY mans DIRTY LITTLE SECRET!

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Ms.Red, Some of what I write might seem harsh but I intend it to be of a positive manner and help to you. You have asked a couple of questions... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">does she really believe that he will just stop seeing this other woman and just overnight stop loving her and seeing her just because he says so?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can assure you that his betrayed wife wants to believe him more than anything else in the world.
It is almost a form of survival.To quote another betrayed spouse...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> d-day ... what can I say?.... a hand grenade exploding from the chest... the sudden loss of gravity .... all air sucked from the body ... equlibrium vanishes ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is not stupid or gullible...she is devastated,wounded all the way to her soul..There is NO OTHER PAIN OR HORRIFYING EXPERIENCE LIKE IT! Go over to the In Recovery area and read the posts on "Do Affairs Really Hurt worse Than Rape?" thread by Petermg. Maybe you will get an idea of WHY she would want to believe him.You have no clue of the pain and devastation you are helping to bring into another human beings life,heart and mind.You said a "respectful" question.Is that an indication that you just might be feeling that you are doing something that is very wrong?I hope so.Yes,she will try in every way possible to believe him.As far as her believing that he will just stop seeing you AND stop loving you...you see, he has more than likely assured her that he does not love you and never has.Isn't it strange that if he loves you so much that he cannot just tell her he loves you,does not want to be with her any longer,end the M,no matter what thwe results and marry you? Let's see....he says it is about finances,her being sooooo emotional,waiting for the stock market to get better,for her elderly sick parents to die,blah,blah,blah....He knows what is right but you are helping him to enjoy being so wrong and ..and ..and..

I will guarantee you that what you think is love from him is
more of an addiction to the feelings he gets from being the "stud" and being able to take care of 2 women,having a life outside the M and being the "man" at home.Self mirroring,"look at me",ego stroking,the old "I've got it all" attitude,and you are being his sucker! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Feelings of infatuation only last 2-4 years at the most and then it takes work on a daily basis to keep the relationship working in a progressive and lovefilled way.You get only his best side.She gets all sides. Is this your first relationship with a man? What is your background,age,marital situation.Maybe we could be of more help to you if you will share with us.That is what this forum is about.

A reason for his telling her it is over with you and continuing to see you..from the same BS as before..... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The guilty suffer. They begin to hate themselves. The guilt hurts ... so they numb the hurt .... but keep doing the behavior that causes the hurt. Vicious cycle. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again,that is called "ADDICTION." Not love in it's true form. Same as with a substance.If you would stop enabling him in this addiction,he would go into recovery.With his wife.He does not belong to you,Ms Red.He is not your soulmate.It is a "buzz" and he is addicted. Another former BS quote..
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H said to me after D-day : "I didn't know how to stop." ... And, at the time, I was pretty harsh and said that was a load of crappola and when you want to stop ... you just stop. Now, I understand what H was saying a lot better. They often DO want to stop. It is sooooo stressful. But, they're hooked on the buzz . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So are you.Respect yourself enough to end it and find someone who is right for you.You can do it.What you send out to others WILL come back to you.

I hope that you will find the backbone to end the A and move on with your life.I hope you will reach deep inside of your present selfish,selfcentered self and decide that you will do the right thing and end this and find a man that is single,free and who loves,protects,defends,honors and is committed to just ONE woman..YOU.Just as the MM should be doing with his WIFE.

From you...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can she tell herself that and how does she do that?
He never stopped calling or seeing me from day one after the blow-out yet she seems to be just fine now, believing that he will never see me again and all is well.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The same way you are doing it.I think you are trying to belittle the wife rather than understand her.Are you going on what he is telling you or have you actually spoken with her.She might even KNOW that you are still seeing each other and waiting quietly in the wings.There are many things to be cautious of when you are an OW in an A. Maybe she has a plan that will give him to you, minus the money to buy you those expensive gifts,or the mortgage payment or food or anything else.You WILL grow to resent her getting everything.
"A wise old owl sat in an oak.The more he heard, the less he spoke.The less he spoke,the more he heard. The wife of your lover might be that wise bird!"

Some distraught BS's have mamed and taken the lives of the "in love" lovers.He would not want you to feel unsafe now would he? If you feel threatened,you might not see him anymore so he would need to make you believe she has no clue.He would tell you she suspects nothing so as to make YOU happy and comfortable.Not much on protecting you is it? I am just throwing some realities out to you and hoping to help you understand the woman you are stealing from.Half of his money is hers,not yours nor all his.Doesn't matter if she works or not.So if she did not agree on buying you those expensive gifts,someone owes her half of the money spent.The intrusion into her home is a real nasty thing on your part.Where in the name of God was your morals and self respect? It is already obvious that they are compomised by the A with MM but to be in HER home with HER husband. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> That one is just plain inexcusable to me.Why in her home?Do you have an H or live in BF? Why not at your place or ask for a motel room?

He is lying.She believes him and SO DO YOU! Are you any different from her? She wants to believe he loves her...you want to believe he loves you.She believes he loves her because he is still with her ...you want to believe he loves you because he still is with you.Vicious cycle. Since you are not his wife,why not be the one who decides not to be used any longer and break the cyle by ending the A.If he does it with you,he will do it to you.

You came here for answers and I know we are giving you far more than you asked for.If you are trying to make what you are doing all right it will not happen.Not in your lifetime. I hope you will open your heart and mind to what you are given here.Some of it will sound harsh but it is given with full intent to help you find self respect and dignity by breaking out of the cycle that leads to devastation...on everyone's part.You deserve more than a MM.You do not deserve to waste your time and life on something and someone that does not belong to you.

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: kings kid ]</small>

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I coudn't agree more with BHF1111, if you feel the need to understand his wife , well go and have coffee .

After all you think you are all entangled , then what the harm . I mean you share .... why not share your thoughts .

why she belives him , well you don't know she does I mean my H is seeing OW also he tells me when he is with her and when she calls . He also tells me she don't know he is home , DO I belive his resons HE!! NO .

I am with him why? I love him and want him to own up to his actions .

There are millions of resons for a wife to stay , but not one for the OW .

He is a M man you know it thats it keep walkin and if the scumbuckit lied to you in the beging and said he wasn't , well now you know he is thats all .

All of these situations are cut and dry .

M do not touch , if M and you need to cheat get a divorce .

Thats just me I tell my H all the time it is simple .
Leave if thats what makes you happy , stay ONLY with me if you want M .

JMO

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<small>[ March 18, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: 3isacrowd ]</small>

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