I just found out this forum and I hope that someone in here might be able to give me an idea of what's going on with my marriage.
I have been married for 24 years and have 3 small children ( 13, 10 and 9 ).
About 3 years ago my husband had an affair. It was a very bad time for both of us. Much stress both in our personal life and our jobs and my husband's cousing - they were very close - had jsut died which kind of reminded my h that he wasn't going to stay here forever. I didn't know what to do, but I think I did what you call planA.
At that time he wanted to leave but then he changed his mind and decided to work on our marriage with me. We had to change a few things mostly creating more time as a couple, and improver communicatin. Two things that weren't at their best before the affair.
AT that time it was easy to see that somethin gwas going on. He would show no interest in staying home or talk to us. He wouldn "hide" from us by watching tv and even falling asleep on the sofa so he didn't have to sleep with me. When he had no option but to stay home it was easy to see that he didn't want to be there,and he started taking even more care of the way he looked.
It took a while for the affair to be completely over but it finally did and he showed he had re-committed to ur marraige and willing to do whatever was needed to help me feel better and regain some of my self confidence.
FOr the next 3 years I really thought it had worked. I even had the silly thought sometimes that maybe this affair had been a painful but probably needed eye-opener.
Our marriage improved greatly and I slowly started to trust him again.
TO my surprise in September I found an email message from someone at work, telling him about some stress at work and for him to pay attention to the phone because seh could realy use talking to him and also needed a hug. This in itself could be completely inocent, after all I write emails to so many people and I always end up with Hugs. But something didn't seem right and I talked to him about that email. He stated - with some logic - that there was nothing. WHy would he use that email address for that kind of message when he had been the one giving me the password and sometimes would even ask me to access it and save this or that message. I almost believed. But then after I talked to him there were no more messages from that person and that was more suspicious. SO Idid something I don't really enjoy doing, I got one of those programs that monitor your computer and record all key loggers.
I learned quite a lot from there. First that they were still communicating only she was now sending her messages to his work email. Most importantly I read about how much she loved hin and something about them sleeping together. As a curiosity most of her messages showed some annoyance to the fact that she felt he wasn't opening up to her or sharing his feelings the way she expected. Once again I confronted him.He made no sense whatsoever.He had no choice but to admit that he was in touch with her,and that they had been spending more and more time together on their breaks, and that their conversations had grown more and more intimate. But again when I asked about the part where she says they "sleep together" the only thing that he was able to say - which doesn't make sense at all - was that since they had been ttalking about such intimate things it was almsot like they had been together already - what a bunch of.... -Still I guess I really wanted to believe, so I kind of tried to focus on rebuilding - again! -.This was in November by the end of the month he had quite a lot of problems with kidney stones and stayed home for about 2 weeks. During that time he didn't send her any emails or received any from her, he didn't talk to her on the phone _ I had it tapped- so I can safely say that there was no contact then. AFter those 2 weeks he went for work for 3 days and then got his vacation. We had planned it that way because both me and the kids were home for that time. During that time there was still no contact that I could see.WHen he went back to work in January he was even applying for other jobs.He didn't admit that he was doing it because of the situation but I wondered if it was.I had figured out his password for his work email and could see that there were no messages either to her or from her.
For all that, I kind of started to believe that maybe it was over when in March I found a message from her saying that she needed to talk to him and one week later anohter one stating how happy she was that she was finally able to convince him and how nice the previous night had been.
I was devastated, here I was trying to regain a tiny bit of trust just to hav eit shattered again.
Once more I confronted him and he had no choice but to admit it.Again he says he can't figure out how it happened and that he didn't know what was wrong with him that he kept hurting us when he didnt' set up to do so. He claimed that we have no major problems in our marriage as opposed to 3 years ago and that he didn't want to leave or ruin our marriage again.He asked for another chance.
At that time I asked him to write her an email ending it all and to cc: to me.WHich he did. This is what he wrote:
" Things at home are not good.
My wife finally talked to me and she was right in everything she said.
I haven't been fair with her or with my kids.
If I am going to save my marriage (and I want to do so) we are not going to be able to see each other anymore. No more coffees.
Both of us might have some things to work on with our marriages, but we owe that to our kids and spouses, at least I do.
I still love my wife and my kids are the world to me, and I don't show that to them.
Sorry for all I put you through, but we have to put a stop to this."

Ok I could accept that except for the fact that my trust is now a big zero. What if after sending that message he called her and explained why he had to do it and to disregard the wholet thing?

I have been completely lost since then. I don't know if it's really over - his work email password expired last month and he had to change it, and I have no idea what it is now, so I can't check.After all he also told me it was in November and look what happened in march!
I have over 20 years of good times and marriage behind me and I want this marriage towork but I just don't know what lead to this or how to recapture some trust.
But here's the twist:
As oposed to 3 years ago, he didn't change at all.
* he spends all his free time home with us and seems to enjoy it. He doesn't go anywhere by himself, even it it's to go to the variety store.
* There are no phone calls at all.
* he doesn't seem to have any problems touching me. When we sit at the sofa he pulls my legs up and massages my feet.
He waxes my legs, massages my back to sleep and sleeps holding me.
* He is caring loving and thoughtful at all times.
* when I'm at work I know for sure he doesn't leave the house, or talk to her on the phone.
* we just bought a new car, a commitment he wouldn't make if he was planning to leave.
* he leaves home for work right on time or sometimes even a bit late, and comes back at the time he should.
* the weekends away together that we started having since his other affair are still happening every other month or every two months as we were doing before.
* he goes out of his way to take me to work in the morning and pick me up even if that means that he won't be able to sleep more than 3-4 hours straigth.

None of these things are new.This is exactly the way things were before this affair. I just feel so bad specially not being sure if it's over or not.And not being able to see for myself that it's over.
I can' see no reson for this to have happened. The only thing that I know that happened was that last year he started having some sexual problems.Although Iknow how important that is to him , and that - who knows why! - he links self esteem to good sexual performance. The problem is not as serious as all that and it didn't really interfere with anything.Nevertheless it happened and it;s still happening .

This is my story, I just am not sure of what to do anymore. Plan B won't work with my Husband - I know that quite well -. Counseling is out of the question not only he has trouble talking about his problems.
Does anyone have any idea why this might have happened when our relationship seemed to be working so nicely.DId this happened to anyone else?
Thanks for any comments you may have I would really appreciate any insight you can give me.

Hi LNS & welcome to MB.

I am sorry for your situation but you are in a place where many of us have dealt with similar issues.

Let's see how to best help you get started. You didn't mention how much of the concepts section or Harley's books you have read. Do you know the purpose of plan A vs plan B? Also there is an emotional needs questionnaire and phone counseling with Steve or Jennifer (Dr Harley's son and daughter) is available and they are both quite good. My H didn't want to talk to Steve either but when he did, couldn't shut him up. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Please read the books such as surviving an affair and his needs/her needs. Both will help both of you. If he won't read, you start. Just leave them lying around.

Now do you really think the A is over? Are there lingering doubts? If it is over, the BS generally goes through what we call the 5 stages of grieving. One of those stages will include anger. It is important for you to get with a good MC or use Steve or Jennifer to help make it through that period. You are right to feel insecure. The A and the 2nd d/d has now made you feel raped, exposed, raw, frustrated, angry and very very hurt. How to recover?

Well some of that will have to be up to your H. First see if both of you can take the Emotional Needs questionnaire. If he won't take it for you and then pretend you are him and take it as if it was him. You might be surprised.

You say all appears well but there is an underlying factor that has not reared it's ugly head yet.

Does your H have abandonment issues? Is he a conflict avoider? What needs is the OW meeting? Should you stop your snooping? What is Policy of Joint Agreement? What is Radical Honesty and when should that be used? What does your H think he can do to help you feel safe again? What will he do? What will you do? What should you not do? These are just some of the questions that may be cluttering up your mind.

One's adrenaline usually runs high at this time. Your weight may drop and you may not be able to sleep well. Anxiety attacks may occur. Please see a doctor and let him know. Also it may be wise for both of you to get checked by your doctor. STD's can happen.

Please let us know how you are doing.

take care,
L.

Hi orchid, thanks for answering. I am running towork now, but I'll answer later today.
Hope you have a good day.

hello again, sorry I was away and didn't have a chance to come to the computer.
I didn't read anything in dept yet, when I found this forum I read everything that seemed related to my situation and then I jumped to post.
I am now trying to find some of the books you mentioned to read.

As for counseling husband will not go.We tried that 3 years ago, we went to 7 sessions, but he quit. He has lots of trouble expressing what he feels and putting it to words, and more so when it's to someone fro outside ( this is not new or related to the affair, he was always like this )

I am still reading about plan A and B although in my situation and knowing my husband plan B would not work, that is for sure.

But when I posted my main idea was really trying to figure out why it happened ( or is happening) . From what I read and heard from friends there is usually some difference in behaviour. I can't see the purpose and don't understand why it is happening. He ( according to him and I gues I can bellieve in in this one ) doesn't want to leave the marriage, other than during the work, shows no interest in being with this other woman, is great at home with us, is making plans for the future - including financial - that include us, can't be more loving and caring with us, and spends all his free time with us. He calls me during work sometimes and emails me often. What gives ? WHat is the purpose of this affair?
I know that she claimed to be the one who convinced him - as per her email - but hey nobody is convinced by someone else to do what they don't want to do... I think...

As for the reason I' not sure it's finished well other than the fact that in November he claimed that it was - and indeed was away from her for a long time - until march - and then did it again, there is a matter of still sounding defensive, avoiding talkign about it - although 3 years ago that also happened , he only really opened up after a while - . He says he feels bad when I try to talk about it because nothing is happening and I'm talking as if it is - but then again he said that after november as well... and it did happen again.
Those are the only reasons why I'm not sure if it is over or not.
Also I had asked him to forward me her reply to his message to her ending things. He never did. WHen I mentioned it he says she didn't answer and that he was not expecting her to answer, but I don't know, I think that in such a case, it's difficult to bellieve that she didn't answer him.

In any case, I will read more and try to get the books, but more than help on what to do, I would really need some input about the situation itself. apprciate any ideas.
Thank you

Claudia

Claudia, the first thing you need to do is to find out what his emotional needs are and what is happening in the marriage that possibly led him to seek an affair. You should both take the emotional needs questionaire on this website. There is some lack in his life that is leading him to seek affairs. The key is to find out what that unfulfilled need is and start filling it yourself. He then has to take steps to protect himself from vulnerable situations and agree to never be alone with other women. That has to be a boundary that you set. No coffee breaks with women!

I would also ask him for the password to his work email. He should gladly hand it over if he is innocent. And I would not tell him that you have spy software on his computer. That is your insurance. I also emphatically agree with Orchid's advice to get the book His Needs/Her Needs by Harley.

thankyou melody:)

I looked for the emotional needs questionaire although I'm not sure if I'll be able to get him to fill it out. I printed it just in case.

As for which needs are not being met... I'm stuck there. 3 years ago I was able to look back to our relatinship and find things that were not at its best. I analised them and figured that although I couldn't accept them as a justification to his affair, they were things that might have something to do with leading him there. He himself was able to verbalize some of the things that weren't working well in our marriage. Most of it had to do with communication, and no time for ourselves as a couple, forgeting those little things that we sometimes forget when life is filled with due dates and part time jobs and even family problems.
I thought we fixed all that. Actually in all honesty I really can't see anything not working well. Our finances are more or less straightened out, we really have been making lots of time for ourselves as a couple, things are looking good - these were some of the things that were bothering us 3 years ago. If someone is being taken for granted in this relationship it is me, not him. I even had a chance to leave one of my part time jobs so we have some more time together. Sex has been great - and not even his problem can make a difference , other than in his own mind, but we did talk about it, and although I know it's still bothering him, we were able to agree that it wasn't creating any problem in our sex life. The only other thing that I can think of is that I am taking medication that has been making me gain weight. I gained almost 30 pounds. But I was taking it before, I've been taking it for almost 5 years on and off. He knows I need it - or at least apparently he does, I don't know anymore - and assures me it has nothing to do with it, although of course he would like it if I got back to the weight I had before.

SO I am at a loss trying to figure out anything in our marriage that is wrong enough for this situation.

SOmetimes I wonder if by forgiving him his first affair if somehow it wasl ike I gave him permission to do so again and again. That is the only way I can figure out this one, since it doesn't look like a big "LOVE" thing, and as I said he doesn't even bother trying to get in touch with her, when he's away from work for long periods of time, or even when during the day when he's not working - actually she did complain about that on her emails. As I said it all happened - happens - during work time.
I was wondering if maybe some of the men in this group wouldn't mind reading my post and giving me their ideas.
Main thing is he doesn't seem to be in love with this person, he doesn't make an effort to meet her or communicate with her away from work, he acts perfectly normal at home - if Ididn't know about it, I would say my relationship was just great -, he does make an effort to do things that he know we enjoy, sometimes getting out of his way to do so, he is gentle and caring with us, but...... yes they did meet to "talk" and then some.
I'm going to try to get him to fill out the emotional needs questionaire and will write back
Thanks
claudia

"He has lots of trouble expressing what he feels and putting it to words, and more so when it's to someone from outside."

Well ..... he didn't seem to have trouble expressing his feelings to OW ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

This is NOT EVEN CLOSE as a valid reason to avoid counseling.

The reason he had another affair is because he did not have counseling from the first one!

Just because it's hard for him to go to counseling, doesn't mean he shouldn't go.

For me .... the counseling would be a non-negotiable requirement for the continuation of the marriage. if you don't insist on this, you are looking at the same issues over, and over again.

Be strong.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

well, well.. we did fill out the emotional needs questionaire. Both of us.
It was quite interesting but it didn't bring any new insight to help me understand why this is happening.
WE did have different major priorities, but I don't see that as anything wrong, it seems quite normal to me. There were a few surprises when he listed some needs like recreational companionship very close to the top - which is one of my most important needs but I thought it wasn't one of his.
He still claims that there is nothing wrong with our marriage and he still can't understand how he got into this situation in the first place. He says he felt flatered by her interest and persistence and that at times he felt like he was younger and carefree, but he didn't mean to get into a situation that is hurting us all, specially after what happened 3 years ago. Very nice, but he did. That can't be changed.

According to him the only thing he would change in our marriage is the fact that we only have a chance to sleep together on weekends or when he's on vacation, he misses that he says - yeah right! that's probably why he's sleeping with her !!!! Right!!! The other things have to do with our choice of inviting his parents to live with us - bad choice , really although they have their own part of the house - and he would love for me not to spend as much money as I do calling my mom, but he understands that she's over 80 years old, living alone and 5 hours away from us.
Again not much in there.

As for counseling I don't know. 3 years ago we had this wonderful woman as our counselor, but even I have to confess that it didn't help much. Most of the things she suggested had been tried by us already, some we were thinking about, and some didn't fit with what was happening. I had the benefit of feeling better just for the fact that I was being heard and my concerns were being validated. THat in itself made a difference for me. But for him, it didn't made any difference. He's not a thinker anyways.
I suppose I could "force" him to go to counseling but I can't see what good that would bring. He would just become defensive - he does that without even thinking - and feel judged. I know that's not the way it goes, but that's the way he fells it.Unless he really is open in counseling, I don't see how it would work,and I know how he does close up, I've seen it first hand.

3 years ago he gave me his passwords. This time he didn't. Ihad his password from work for a while before it expired, and although wwe didn't talk about it, he knew it. But it just expired recently and I don't have the new one yet.

As for the rest life seems to go as usual. We just came from a camping trip and are already planning antoher one for the end of June when he has 2 weeks vacation and the end of july when he has the rest of his vacation.
He's looking into trailers that we can afford so we could have a place to go all summer and the kids have a chance to make new friends. This is a big financial commitment but I'd preffer an emotional commitment of course.

In any case, I'm still reading everything on this site and trying to figure out why this happened and if it will happen again.
I decided to give it some time and try to see how things are going. I would prefer to have complete certainty that the affair is over, but as it is , I only have his word, and I"m afraid that doesn't count much just now. I suppose what I'm doing is some sort of plan A, but in fact it is not any different from what I've been doing all along since 3 years ago. I do have certain times were the whole thing gets to me, and my mood changes. He notices that, but has been understanding - no duh! there wouldn't be changes in mood if there wasn't an affair, and he's the one who chose that.
Still welcome any ideas and thoughts on this situation. MY decision on what I want to do for now is taken, but I'm a person that needs to understand why things happen and it is difficult to go on with my life without understand thig.
ANy insight is welcome of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Thank you
claudia