I haven't posted before, but I've been in marriage and individual counseling and reading books, this website and others in depth for a little over a month trying to figure out if I am addicted, co-dependent, or truly in love.....

It's been a deeply connected long distance (other side of the country) PA relationship for 17 years, most frequently and intensely for the past 2 1/2 years. He just got caught again for the 2nd time in 3 years just as we were discussing leaving our spouses finally. He's been married 39 years and I've been married 19. His kids are in their 30's now and finally married and my son is 16. He's always encouraged me to stay in my marriage for my son's benefit, at least until he graduates high school, drawing from his deep devotion to Christianity.

It's a long story, and the book's in process. It's just that this time, I don't know if the last page has yet to be written, although he pretty much said it hasn't. I'm extremely confused because the arrival of his suddenly detailed Verizon bill and the subsequent expulsion from the house has been the catalyst for him to cut off all contact again with me. She confronted him, he confessed his love for me to her and then realized while packing up his life, that he had misjudged her love for him. Now his faith has shaken his prior misguided judgement about our relationship but he said he realizes he's been forgiven by God. He made me feel like I hadn't been since Judaism doesn't follow the same path, but then he told me to accept that I have been forgiven as he is and go forward. I can't just blow off my deep sadness for his family's pain from his exposed secrecy. Instead of conquering his fears and speaking the truth and leaving, it seems he's again hiding his own feelings under the guise of religious obligations, that God doesn't like broken marriages. I've seen him do this 2 - 3 times before and he's always come looking for me from 4 months to 2 years later. My problem is that I can't say no to him, but I also won't sit and wait. Although, last time he came back after 2 years of NC, he unknowingly removed me from continuing the personally destructive behavior I got trapped into while he was out of my life. I guess when I'm involved with him, it's a controlled chaos.

He sucked me back in 3 years ago with a quote that describes him to a T: "I don't believe in a risk free life, where the thrills of living
are traded for the safety of existence." It's on the wall in his office and he's sworn by it for years. Fast cars, jet airplanes, motorcycles..... and us, I guess........anything that takes us to the edge, as he's described it. Until he gets caught. Now he says he's surrounded by friends from church who are going to protect him from himself - but he called it supporting his healing. He's one who you can't say NO to or he jumps in completely, so I'll believe it when I see it. I think it's that endorphin addiction, although alcohol is involved as well.

In the meantime, before all this hit the fan a month ago, I had already begun taking control of my own dysfunctional marriage and decided I won't accept being verbally abused by my husband any more. I'm afraid of my husband's anger, and for that reason, I haven't told him about any of this. I'm giving my marriage one more chance and if it doesn't work this time, I'm going on with my life... with or without this man, even though he's the only person I believe has shown me validity, compassion, appreciation and been someone I've trusted enough to share a depth of love I dreamed of as a child.

He tells me all the time he's loved me since the first day he met me, 5 years before we inadvertently met again through my husband. At that point, though, I was already married for 2 yrs. Over the years he has reconnected with me after long spans of silence during major life crises or milestones of mine, and we've never really felt the passing of time to effect us.

My only problem now is the feeling that maybe I've been abused by his manipulations and I'm blind to it. He found me as a willing vulnerable partner. I now even think that his wife's call to me 3 years ago to warn me he's a womanizer probably wasn't heeded out of sheer desire to continue the level of loving attention he offered me. I've never felt anything even close in my marriage, although I made it very easy for him. I met him where ever he was traveling to for days at a time on business, and our years of fantasies were finally realized, the last of which was in Grand Cayman. (and I still have a ticket to Nassau that was supposed to be used 2 weeks from now.) I've been continually swayed by our ability to connect on all levels of life that I've always loved - books, spirituality, dance, exercise, languages, foods, travel, communications, creativity, work, education, our children, and yes, physically.

Needless to say, I'm devastated that I allowed myself to get to this point again to have to go through this withdrawal once again, only this time it's worse than ever. I can't stop crying and it's been over a month, and I know it's because I allowed our passions to open up more than ever. He promised me he'd never leave me again, and that the next move would be into the truth. The triggers you all speak of are killing me. But I know the pain I'm feeling is being felt also by his wife from the other side of this. I don't know if she'll take him back, because she's never thrown him out, but I know he's very afraid. And at 60 yrs of age, they have a lot to lose. At 49, I finally want to learn to heal this ability to endure my own dishonesty, learn that I'm worthy of a truly loving relationship without abuse, and find a healthy path for myself.

I just need to find what it takes to do all that......... and do everything I can not to call his office. Everything else has been disconnected or cancelled. Any positive suggestions would be welcomed. I have wonderful friends who are all trying to help me cope, but it's making them all crazy. I'm sure. They were all just as shocked as I was.

And throwing me to the wolves isn't necessary....... I'm there already.

Sorry this is so long.... and there's just so much more.

I think it has taken you a lot of courage to post here. You must realize that you may get some very negative feedback from admitting that you have been involved with this man for 17 years - but I encourage you to continue to post if what you truly want is to kick what is clearly a life-destroying "habit" - it sounds to me like you are both addicted to each other. There are so many things I would like to say, but I don't have time right now, as I am off to get my H from the airport. I may not be able to get back to the forum for a few days, but I would encourage you NOT to contact him.

In my own situation, my H got emotionally involved with an older married woman when he was in his early 20's - I met him when I was 26, not knowing of his emotional connection to this woman - even when I did guess, he was never, and has never been upfront and honest about what happened between them before he met me - I believe that this Emotional Affair, for that is what it was, deeply affected his ability to connect with anyone else, including me. They have remained friends, and she became my friend - in fact, she was a great help to me initially, when my H fell in love 2 years ago, with one girl after another. This past year, for the first time, she has backed off almost completely - I would like to think that watching us go through Hell has made her realize the impact that their emotional attachment had on his life and marriage. She told me that it is only in the past 5 years that her own marriage has "come together". She will be 66 in July. We are all committed Christians - and I understand the sense that you mention - that he is "hiding" behind his religious convictions. I often felt that my H did the same whenever he wanted to not face what he was really doing - I also felt that his "friend" cloaked her own personal love in the love of the Holy Spirit. Be that as it may, through the last two years, I have learned that that is THEIR problem. And I have learned not to judge so much.

The thing is - this is your whole LIFE going past like this. YOU are denying YOURSELF the chance at happiness with someone who is truly committed to you that you deserve. Your own marriage is unhappy partly because you have been betraying your husband on and off for 17 years. You cannot possibly say that you have given him a chance to make you happy. You may intend to - until the next time. Living with you, for him, is like living with an alcoholic. He may not know about your betrayal, but he is living with the effects of it every day. You are like a secret drinker. Think of how you would feel if you lived with a secret drinker - you would know there was something wrong, but you wouldn't know what - nothing you did was ever good enough. Eventually, a brooding anger would set in. You say he is verbally abusive. I don't condone abuse. I have experienced it myself - it is an issue in my marriage. But I can understand your husband's anger if it is related to your affair. You say you fear telling him. It is probable that he already suspects and has suspected for a very long time.

I don't know what I can do to help you, but I would say that given your situation, you will only get help here if you are serious about ending this affair, no matter how long it has been going on. You have no claim to this man - your happiness is an illusion, built on the pain of others. He is clearly using you as his "pick-me-up" whenever he feels bored with life. I would not give him the time of day, or waste any more of my precious life on him - you have allowed him to dominate and waste 17 years of your life already. I am sure that you have many good qualities to offer someone else. And yes, I believe that God forgives - but true repentence comes first - and honesty is where it starts. Ask yourself - do I want to go on with my life as an honest person? No matter what - even if my own marriage breaks up.

Sorry if I sound harsh - I really am trying to give you hope for your own future. There is no future for you with that man.

LIR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She confronted him, he confessed his love for me to her and then realized while packing up his life, that he had misjudged her love for him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps you misjudged his true feelings for her the same way you misjudged the nature of this forum? Obviously he loves his wife - probably much more - or he wouldn't have chosen her.

Isn't the proof in the pudding? He is with her, not you. He made his choice. If he can lie to his own wife of 39 years, he surely has lied to you. You are not special. I have no doubt that he lied to you all these years about his feelings in order to use you. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you, he has done the right thing and ended his sleazy, illicit affair. Wish him the best and get on with your life. He has.

This forum is called Marriage BUILDERS, not Marriage BREAKERS.

<small>[ May 27, 2003, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

First of all, having an affair for 17 years and being a devoted Christian are not compatible. He may be a Christian, but he's not at all the kind of man God wants him to be, as adultery and lying are against the 10 commandments (for both of you).

I doubt he told you to stay married for your son out of his Christian compassion, I suspect it was more convenient for him that you stay married.

His wife believes he is a womanizer, you say you suspect alcohol addiction, you know he's an unfaithful husband, and you also know that everytime he is exposed...he stays with her.

He may be good to you when he's with you, but he's not a good man.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I finally want to learn to heal this ability to endure my own dishonesty, learn that I'm worthy of a truly loving relationship without abuse, and find a healthy path for myself </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a good goal. As hard as it is after 17 years, give up on your affair partner. He hasn't brought any honor, honesty, true love or health to your life. Waiting on him is just going to bring you more of the same. Even if he chose you...he's used to having 2 women, the woman of his home and the woman on the side. I doubt that will change should you become the wife. Cut him loose from your side, it sounds like he's changed his phone numbers, etc, so he's making an effort on his part TO STAY WITH HIS WIFE.

With this man in your marriage almost from the beginning, it's no wonder your marriage limps along and your H is angry. He's never had a wife for any long period of time and whether he knows "the truth" or not, he knows his marriage isn't right. You can't possibly have had a 17 year affair and also have been a good wife, meeting your husbands emotional and physical needs at the intimate level of marriage. Your marriage has never had your full attention.

I don't know if your marriage can survive, but it has survived this long, so something has kept it together.

I think your plan to give your marriage a chance is a good one and I'd suggest setting aside a year to do so. In that amount of time your feelings for the OM will fade and perhaps you can learn some healthy living patterns so that you can make better decisions.

So, rule #1 is no contact with the OM, ever, you've got all the closure you're ever going to need, you know another conversation isn't going to change anything.

The usual advice here is to be honest with your husband, the only time that isn't advised is if there is history of abuse. I don't feel comfortable advising you either way, given the little information you've posted about abuse. However, if your H never knows what you've done for all of these years, he can't make a real choice about if he wants you as his wife. You will always have a secret and there will always be a level of marital intimacy that you can't achieve.

Read up on Emotional Needs. You and your H take the questionnaires and learn what your high ENs are and discuss how the 2 of you can meet each other's needs.

Since you say you are in marriage counseling, do you think you have a good counselor? If not, get one. Steve Harley is available for telephone counseling through this site, and perhaps a few sessions with him would give you clearer direction.

If you've been in marriage counseling, then your H knows there are problems. It's a given that since you continued the affair without your H's knowledge that the counseling hasn't been as effective as it could have been. The counselor is hampered by their lack of knowledge as to your dishonesty and infidelity.

You've got a lot of decisions and work ahead of you and there's no way around it, you just have to go through it.

Okay take a long look in the mirror.....and recognize you are not a bad person. You have done a TERRIBLE thing but affairs of the heart often lead people down the wrong path.

That being said you more than likely were played by a player. I know my wife was. And like you she had abuse issues...deep seeded ones.

My story:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=009539

Thing is a real player will say all the right things. If you are feeling down you are the love of his life. Feeling guilty he suddenly is too or deflects by saying no one is getting hurt because no one knows. And he will come back as often as he senses your weakness and like you said suck you back in.

Just this weekend I asked my wife had she ever worried about being caught. She said know because everyday she got up in the morning thinking this would be the day she ended things...and of course he knew how to keep things going based on her vunerability.

And like your OM the moment the wife found he he went cold turkey...that was fine by my wife as she had been trying to find the strength to end it.

So its tough I can imagine because in your case he implied a future he was not willing to give.

Something to keep in mind affair partners are like your spouses when you first fell in love with them. They weren't burdened with real world pressures. They saw only at their best. Never did you have to see them leave their clothes scattered about the room. Or when they musty and sweaty after working in the yard.

Facts are marriages coming from an exit affair fail at a higher rate than conventional non secretive relationships.

I don't know what to say to you.

One of my patients has been having an A for more than 20 years. She is the most immature 60-year-old I have ever met! And ... to boot, she is unhappy and perpetually questioning herself. She lacks the rudimentary wisdom even the most pedestrian of us achieve by our 6th decade!

She has been my patient since 1985. She askes me if we can be friends. Meet for lunch, and that sort of thing. I would never be friends with anyone capable of such long term treachery.

You need therapy. You are a risky person for anyone to be involved with. You have been abused by both men, because, they have been granted your permission to do so.

Unless you are a prisoner, you can prevent being abused over and over.

Pep

I almost hate to point this out, because it is going to sound like I'm blaming the victim, BUT: Was your H verbally abusing in the first two years of your marriage? If not, do you think there might be a connection between your affair and the abuse? I am NOT trying to excuse your H's behavior. You deserve that no more than he deserves your betrayal of him. During my wife's affiar, I had more and more frequent thoughts of how nice it would be if she would die in a plane crash while traveling for work. I did not WANT to have thoughts like that, and they stopped at DDay. I think they were caused by the emotional abuse her affair was inflicting on me, but of which I was noot consciously aware. Is it possible that his verbal abuse stems from the same source? Even if not, you will not be able to heal your marriage without being honest with your H. If he is abusive, you will need to take measures to protect yourself when you tell him.

Click on the link in my signature line for the path to recovery and a good marriage.

Thank you all for your input. There is a lot I haven't mentioned that I will fill in.

Yes, it has been difficult for me to post this situation, but I didn't see anything that closely resembles what I've been in the midst of, so I took a deep breath, wrote it out, and hit send. It's pretty overwhelming to subject myself to even more criticism than I already get, but hopefully this will be a positive experience, not degrading. And I am seeing a little more clearly already.

There've been many happily married friends (mostly women) over the years who I've been honest with about this, and many others, male AND female, who are having affairs of all kinds. No one has been involved with only one person for the length of time I have been, and the men have all seemed to always feel I was being had. My feeling is that it's because they've never had a meaningful relationship with their spouses OR their PA's. And the only reason I never listened to any of them was because I know their doubtful attitudes towards my relationship with OM is nothing but self gratifying comments, in that they are all assuming I'm playing with this guy, so I'll play with them as well. When I tell them they don't get it, I'm in love with the man, they back off and tell me to call them when I wise up. They're all waiting in the wings as we speak, and I've told them for the past month I'm totally not interested. I even told OM about them over the years, and he appreciated knowing but never felt threatened. Of course, my H has no clue, and he'd lose it if he did. Most of the men making advances towards me are industry friends of our's.

In contrast, OM NEVER talked to anyone about our relationship for years, until a loving wayward page to me ended up on an employees pager 2.5 years ago. OM came clean with him and when there was a trip where I could meet him, that employee would be scheduled to travel. He was playing around on trips on his own, although I never saw him with anyone else other than friends of mine who traveled with me. This employee is now fearing the repercussions of OM's guilt, as the only reminder of me left in his life.

Lady_In_Red:
"We are all committed Christians - and I understand the sense that you mention - that he is "hiding" behind his religious convictions."

Thank you for understanding and not feeling I was being critical. I know his fears are huge, but I also think he's trying to make himself look good by getting support from church friends. And hopefully his W may see through her pain easier if he shows her he's on that path. I just hope his counseling goes deeper than just a biblical threat on his head, otherwise his wild side will show up at my door or dial my number again.

"Your own marriage is unhappy partly because you have been betraying your husband on and off for 17 years. You cannot possibly say that you have given him a chance to make you happy. You may intend to - until the next time. Living with you, for him, is like living with an alcoholic. He may not know about your betrayal, but he is living with the effects of it every day. You are like a secret drinker. Think of how you would feel if you lived with a secret drinker - you would know there was something wrong, but you wouldn't know what - nothing you did was ever good enough. Eventually, a brooding anger would set in. You say he is verbally abusive. I don't condone abuse. I have experienced it myself - it is an issue in my marriage. But I can understand your husband's anger if it is related to your affair."

Thank you. And I appreciate that correlation to a secret alcoholic. I've tried to take the blame for H's anger and criticism and disrespect, but I don't think that's completely the case. I just don't know what started the cycle between us of my seeking positive validation and respect outside of my M and H feeling the frustration of my emotional absence towards him due to his abuse.

Just to begin with, yes, I met OM, worked for him for 6 mos and we had our first PA right before I got pregnant with our son. (OM assured me he'd had a vasectomy many years before.) I only saw him once after that, about 5.5 mos into my pregnancy, and then we didn't speak at all. (OM has never lived in the same state as me, in fact he's on the other side of the country now. His work has always brought us together.) Then the morning after I went into labor at midnight, I went to the hospital and hadn't dilated enough so they sent me home with a sleeping pill. H dropped me off and went to work. I couldn't get him to understand how disrespectful he was, so I just went to bed. As soon as the car was gone, the phone rang. It was OM thinking it was probably pretty close to my delivery date. I thanked him for calling me and his well wishes for a safe delivery, and then I cried. I was totally overwhelmed that he called at JUST that moment, and actually he's made similar connections unknowingly over the years.

Later that afternoon H came home, took me back to the hospital, and it was awful. H forgot to bring my headphones, so the cassette deck I had set aside and jazz tapes to listen to ended up plugged in on the other side of the labor room with no volume because he was concerned it would bother other patients on the floor. The hospital had Star Wars movies playing all night and when ever I had a contraction and needed help he'd be sitting on the other end of the huge room telling me I was a pain in the a$$ and to wait for a while so he wouldn't miss anything. When the nurses would finally come in periodically (there were 25 women giving birth that night) they would ask him why he wasn't helping me and he let them know, laughing, that he'd DONE that with his first son in his previous marriage and he wasn't impressed and HE didn't NEED to do that this time. (He DID go through the classes with me.) His other favorite comment was that it's been SO MANY HOURS, and that he's over it!

Finally after 29 hours of total labor, they decided to give me a C section. Afterwards he decided to pay attention and tell the resident that he would have brought the main sail to get them to repair if he knew they were such great seamstresses.

I've searched and searched my soul for years to figure out how in the world I was the cause of such hateful treatment on what should have been the most important day of our life.

I'm going to go work out now and finish answering the rest of the comments later. That just took a huge toll on me, but exercise has been a great boost. The only problem is that I was only introduced to exercising because OM got me interested. He's a runner - 8 miles a day, and got me running, too. That I've stopped, because I cry too much. Jazzercise has been my only saving grace, even though I cry there as well.

Until later tonight.....

17YRs,

You are joking with us right? You cannot be so self-absorbed as to believe that your affair hasn't affected your H and your marriage. You expect us to feel that your H neglected you, but it was fine for you to have an affair starting before your pregnancy and through it?????

You then talk about all of the men lined up to date and you and presumably ready to sleep with you, if and when you get tired of OM. Yet, somehow your H is abusive??? I don't even believe this story.

You know why? You should have divorced your H long ago, IF he really abused you. You should have divorced your H long ago, because you have never been married to him, and indeed have been mostly focusing on OM's replacements, IF YOU SO CHOOSE.

In short, I see no evidence that what you are telling us is really real. I have been in a few labor rooms and most of the women I know don't complain about not having their head phones. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you. And I appreciate that correlation to a secret alcoholic. I've tried to take the blame for H's anger and criticism and disrespect, but I don't think that's completely the case.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you think it isn't COMPLETELY the case? Your great attention to him and his needs? Yes, I am being sarcastic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just don't know what started the cycle between us of my seeking positive validation and respect outside of my M and H feeling the frustration of my emotional absence towards him due to his abuse.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't sense you are getting respect outside of your marriage. Clearly you are sending signals to other men that you are available and they are ready to step in for OM. He has indeed used you, and clearly doesn't have any intention of leaving his W unless she throws him out. If that happens my guess is that he will find someone else, not you. I know this is harsh, but users are like that, and I am betting your OM will be as well. If he hasn't already got someone else lined up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just to begin with, yes, I met OM, worked for him for 6 mos and we had our first PA right before I got pregnant with our son. (OM assured me he'd had a vasectomy many years before.) I only saw him once after that, about 5.5 mos into my pregnancy, and then we didn't speak at all. (OM has never lived in the same state as me, in fact he's on the other side of the country now. His work has always brought us together.) Then the morning after I went into labor at midnight, I went to the hospital and hadn't dilated enough so they sent me home with a sleeping pill. H dropped me off and went to work. I couldn't get him to understand how disrespectful he was, so I just went to bed. As soon as the car was gone, the phone rang. It was OM thinking it was probably pretty close to my delivery date. I thanked him for calling me and his well wishes for a safe delivery, and then I cried. I was totally overwhelmed that he called at JUST that moment, and actually he's made similar connections unknowingly over the years.

Later that afternoon H came home, took me back to the hospital, and it was awful. H forgot to bring my headphones, so the cassette deck I had set aside and jazz tapes to listen to ended up plugged in on the other side of the labor room with no volume because he was concerned it would bother other patients on the floor. The hospital had Star Wars movies playing all night and when ever I had a contraction and needed help he'd be sitting on the other end of the huge room telling me I was a pain in the a$$ and to wait for a while so he wouldn't miss anything. When the nurses would finally come in periodically (there were 25 women giving birth that night) they would ask him why he wasn't helping me and he let them know, laughing, that he'd DONE that with his first son in his previous marriage and he wasn't impressed and HE didn't NEED to do that this time. (He DID go through the classes with me.) His other favorite comment was that it's been SO MANY HOURS, and that he's over it!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's see you main complaint was that he wasn't Dr. Kildare, some 17 years ago. Is that right? Of course that doesn't explain that you were already having an affair, and possibly had OM's child. You don't know if you did or didn't do you?

17YRS, I hate being so harsh but your story is either just an interesting story, or you are so clueless about the things YOU did to the marriage and without remorse or intention of rebuilding your marriage. In either case there is really no help for you here.

This is a marriage building site and it seems that your focus during your marriage has been OM, and perhaps his replacement. I am sure your H is angry, I am sure he sees the marriage as hell. I am sure he is not perfect. But, if he is/was abusive you should have gotten out a long time ago. I know and you know that you had a man in the wings to help you, but you choose remain. Why?

I look forward to hearing your explanation as why you wouldn't have left your H, given what you have said about him. I look forward to you explaining why you have no conscience or remorse for what you have done. I look forward to hearing your plans for your future.

Please think about what I said. I said it for a purpose and it wasn't to tell you what you already know, but to get you see what you apparently don't want to see.

God Bless,

JL

Well said, JL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wow.......

I came here to this forum looking for positive feedback to help me find a solution to a problem which I have admitted having for the first time in 17 years.

And now I'm being called a liar for being honest.

That's exactly the problem I've had for the past 49 years..... I've been second guessed on so many levels that the only ones I've gotten positive validation from have been those that are deadly to the morals I've always wanted to uphold.

A few of you have helped me, and I thank you for that input. It's the negativity that I can't handle anymore, but I'm going to try and stand up for myself this time.

Just Learning:

"You are joking with us right? You cannot be so self-absorbed as to believe that your affair hasn't affected your H and your marriage. You expect us to feel that your H neglected you, but it was fine for you to have an affair starting before your pregnancy and through it?????"

I never would have come to this forum and taken so much time searching for a path to follow if I was joking. I never said my relationship didn't affect my marriage. I know it did. I know more than any one how much it did, and more than anything it affected the way I perceived the abuse. I grew up with an abusive father. I hated that and swore I'd never marry into the same situation my mother made us live with. And then I realized I did. How did I know? Because I saw what it was like to be treated like a queen, whether it was a lie or not, and I learned what respect was suppose to feel like. I never dated anyone who treated me like that, although my husband was a really nice guy to me until we got married. My favorite line to him has always been: Pretend I'm either your mother or a customer. The abuse was then swept back under the rug once I had loving input from OM, and I could live with things the way they were at home.

Yes, absolutely H neglected me during the birth of our son, and he's never felt remorseful for that. The resentment I have for that night has been one of the most difficult emotions for me to bury. Does it make my affair right? No. Was my perception of the relationship an illusion? Maybe. But I FELT truly loved, and that's something I hadn't ever experienced.

"You then talk about all of the men lined up to date you and presumably ready to sleep with you, if and when you get tired of OM. Yet, somehow your H is abusive??? I don't even believe this story.

".....indeed have been mostly focusing on OM's replacements, IF YOU SO CHOOSE."

"Clearly you are sending signals to other men that you are available and they are ready to step in for OM."

I have not lined up anyone and I am not focused on any replacements. What you aren't hearing me tell you is that I AM NOT INTERESTED AND NEVER HAVE BEEN. I will never understand why we can't just be friends, and they know that's my position!!! I discussed this with a girlfriend tonight because you really upset me. I know I have this problem with men and I don't know why or what to do about it. What she told me is: YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL. What I reminded her of is that I do not use other people's perception of my looks to gain anything. In fact, I have always dressed as sloppy and bum looking as possible to protect myself. And I NEVER wear makeup. I never wear anything sexy at all, mainly because my husband disapproves of it. He feels a mother should be dressed appropriately. I wear baggy t shirts and sweats unless it's summer and then it's baggy shorts. And to be honest, that didn't stop my gynocoligist from making it known he was interested as well!!! If you knew how sad and frustrating this makes me, you wouldn't accuse me of lying.

My girlfriend told me that it's my personality. I allow people to open up and feel comfortable around me and my energy is usually positive. I enjoy friends. I have friends all over the country. And I've shared those friends with my husband as well. The problem is that men take my personality as a come on, so maybe I have to create a false personality now to protect myself as well. Although, you now feel I'm telling a false story. So which is it?!!! I want to live authentically. I'm sick of the illusions!!! I shouldn't have to be someone I'm not!!

"In short, I see no evidence that what you are telling us is really real. I have been in a few labor rooms and most of the women I know don't complain about not having their head phones."

I use music to meditate away from pain and anxiety. I use a CD player and headphones in the dentist's chair and I was hoping to use the casette player and many hours of recorded jazz to help me through labor. I got nothing - no music at all and no coaching or help other than 2 rides to the hospital through 29 hours of back labor. If in your opinion my expectations were set too high based on my trashy behavior then I guess I deserved what ever cards I was dealt. Interesting perception.

"Let's see you main complaint was that he wasn't Dr. Kildare, some 17 years ago. Is that right? Of course that doesn't explain that you were already having an affair, and possibly had OM's child. You don't know if you did or didn't do you?"

The situation during labor with our son isn't my main complaint. I was asked if H was abusive before my affair started. I was answering the question as graphically as I could. It was my first huge inkling that he had the capacity to be just like my abusive father. There were many other times before that, and after as well. I don't know anyone who expects their H's to be Dr Kildare, but to not be interested in the least in their child's birth, even though they've experienced it before in another marriage, screams volumes to me. No one I know has had a similar experience, and can't fathom that we missed out on sharing that opportunity. He doesn't understand how to bond as a family. But your crass opinion of MY expectations of the birth of OUR child isn't worth discussing. And by the way, he IS my husband's son, I KNOW he's my husband's son, and even the doctor said he's obviously my husband's son based on the one exact night we made love and when I went into labor. (My husband had been across country for 3 weeks but came home for 3 days during an emergency at our new house. OM had a vasectomy MANY years before.) In addition, our son is 6'3, 250lbs at the age of 16 and couldn't possibly be OM's son at that size. Our son always resembled H much more than me from the moment he was born. In fact, I've offered to show people my C section scar to prove I'm even his mother!

".....your story is either just an interesting story, or you are so clueless about the things YOU did to the marriage and without remorse or intention of rebuilding your marriage. In either case there is really no help for you here.

This is a marriage building site and it seems that your focus during your marriage has been OM, and perhaps his replacement."

Well, if I had no intention of rebuilding my marriage, I wouldn't be in counseling for 1 month now, I wouldn't be researching the root of my problem 24 hours a day, and I wouldn't have come to a marriage BUILDERS website. My level of remorse is at the highest it's ever been, but it's definitely been a factor many times over the years.
That didn't keep me from taking OM back when he'd show up after a few years, so now I need to find something to keep me on focus. You keep bringing up replacements, and I will tell you once again, that's not an issue. There isn't anyone who could replace the illusion I was living, if in fact that's what it was. There've been many opportunities over the years to engage any one of the offers to take his place, but the fact is, it's not an issue. Yes, I'm surrounded by people involved in one night stands and PA's galore, but I'm not interested. I didn't go into this relationship on that basis either. It was a deep emotional connection and that's the reason it existed.

"I look forward to hearing your explanation as why you wouldn't have left your H, given what you have said about him. I look forward to you explaining why you have no conscience or remorse for what you have done. I look forward to hearing your plans for your future.

Please think about what I said. I said it for a purpose and it wasn't to tell you what you already know, but to get you see what you apparently don't want to see."

Obviously, you haven't lived in an abusive relationship. Obviously you haven't been led down a path of thinking that you have no other option but to ignore your own abuse from someone who's the parent of your child after having been raised in that same environment and programmed to believe it's 'not that bad'. Obviously you have no understanding what it feels like to be sent the mixed messages of disrespect and criticism and then remorse for the contempt while reminding you that you've made a commitment to a marriage and you're supposed to stick with that whether either partner is dissatisfied or not. And of course counseling is a taboo, but if you've ever gone in the past and you're still having trouble, it means it will never be worthwhile. These are all the same issues I grew up with and I've been living with for many years.

There have been many times I have cut myself off from OM and even up until 3 years ago, I went for 2 straight years without ever thinking about him any more at all. I was finished and he was gone. My sex life with my H was returning, although I have no capacity for anything close to intimate relations when he's drunk, or he's been abusive or disrespectful towards me. I prayed for that to all disappear from our life and it does for a time and then it returns. With 100% of my undivided attention, it still surfaced. But it wasn't until this counselor showed me how to pinpoint the abuse that I fully understood it.

She knows everything about my affair and she's working with me on that as well as getting across some beginning communications skills between H and myself. I know it's a process that takes time, and I've agreed to try and work it out once again. So has he.

I was hoping for some skills from here for getting the OM out of my conscience. The triggers are killing me, and I can't seem to avoid them. If it was only alcohol, it would seem to be much easier. I don't need to see him, I just need to erase all the connections to him.

I hope I've answered your questions and that someone who isn't so negative could help me find the best path to follow. I can't understand anyone's need for negativity towards another person, especially when that person is asking for help. If you don't have any way to help in a positive manner, then maybe you shouldn't be offering it. You sound angry and I'd appreciate if you wouldn't vent that on me. If I can help you with your problem at all, I'd be happy to try, but your anger at me doesn't help me to heal. I have all the anger focused on me that I can bear.

My father passed away almost 2 years ago, June 11, 2001 after suffering for 18 months with Leukemia. The only reason we can figure that he acquired it was from being consumed with anger for so many years. He was a pillar in the community and a philanthropist, but behind closed doors he was angry and abusive. We all loved him but our lives have become much calmer since he's been gone. I spent his very last moments alone with him and a nurse, literally saw him open his eyes and hug 'someone', and then pass away, presumably through that tunnel to the light. Once I realized what I had just experienced, I pledged that I would live what life I have left to the fullest. I don't want to do it at anyone else's expense though, and I'd prefer to share my final years with whoever cares to enjoy them with me. It's for that reason that I want to find a clear path to follow, even though I know there may be others I have to choose from along the way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he only reason we can figure that he acquired it was from being consumed with anger for so many years.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sure the medical community would be very grateful to hear that you have managed to discern the true cause of leukemia. And after all those cellular biologists have failed. "Blaming the victim" has reached new heights.

This thread must have been written by a troll.

(BTW, as someone who has given birth naturally to six kids (one of them over 11 pounds), I agree with JL about the headphones.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The situation during labor with our son isn't my main complaint. I was asked if H was abusive before my affair started. I was answering the question as graphically as I could </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You answered with an incident that happened after the affair had begun. In fact, you are saying that the OM met your need for love with a phone call during labor...your H spent 29 hours in the hospital with you and you view that as not doing a thing for you.

Most wayward spouses pick apart their spouse, excusing their affair because of flaws they find. Your example sounds like you felt such love for your OM that your H probably couldn't do anything for you that pleased you, he screwed up and forgot the tape player and all, and he withdrew. Not great behavior on his part. But...you haven't forgiven him for it have you? 17 years and this is a thorn for you.

Seeking & granting forgiveness is a part of recovery in marriages for both partners. I don't know how you'll be able to get to recovery without telling your H of your affair.

Tips on not thinking about the OM? Everytime he comes into your mind...you push the thought aside. Over and over.

You don't think about him.
You don't dwell on your times together.
You don't wonder what he's doing.
You shut him out of your mind by strength of will, replacement images, and distraction.

ML, Nellie and JL, I don't think your tone is very respectful. Shouldn't we model the things we are trying to learn and teach? JL, I know you are trying to shake her up, but sometimes a gentler approach is needed, especially for someone with her personality. In fact, a 17-year affair is almost incontrovertable evidence that a direct, in-your-face approach will not work. In-your-face works very well with controlling people, if they are ready to listen. Controllers do not have 17-year-long affairs. Pleasers usually need to be persuaded to make the changes from being gently convinced that their actions are inconsistent with their own values, and/or by showing them how the consequences of their actions are undesireable. At least, that is the approach of our MC, who wrote the book I will reference later in this post. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The situation during labor with our son isn't my main complaint. I was asked if H was abusive before my affair started. I was answering the question as graphically as I could. It was my first huge inkling that he had the capacity to be just like my abusive father. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I read this, that means he was NOT abusive before your affair, which started before your first pregnancy, right?

Even if your H KNEW you were having an affair, and you were throwing it in his face, that is not a justification for his abuse. And, I understand that the neglect may be a bigger issue for you than the abuse, in some ways. In asking the question, I was not trying to blame the victim, I was just trying to get you to see the cycle you are/were in. Furthermore, the affair enabled the abuse because it helped you tolerate an intolerable marriage rather than do something to change the marriage or leave, AND I'm guessing it made you feel, at least partly, like you deserved the abuse, which "helped" you tolerate it. Then there is your "emotional abscence" which you mentioned, which contributed to the uncaring atmosphere in your marraige, and was simultaneously a defense mechanism against it. Honesty is the only way to break these cycles.

As for your girlfriend's advice on why men hit on you: I guarantee you it is because of the signals you send. I'm a guy. No guy likes to be rejected. Guys hit on women where they think they have a high chance of success, not on the prettiest ones. My wife's OM "noticed how attractive she was" two months before he "hit on her" . In the interim, as they got to know each other professionally, she had sent all sorts of "I'm available" signals, without even knowing it. Three years later, when she described to me what led up to the affair, she still did not understand how what she said and did was interpreted by him - but I could see it clearly. Things she thought were telling him to put appropriate boundaries on their relationship were certainly interpreted by him (as they would have been by any guy who was interested in her) as a desire to cross those boundaries. She was open to warm intimate conversation that was a bit "closer" than appropriate for people who are "just" social or business aquaintences, which led to a blurring of what were appropriate boundaries in their relatinship. You are doing some of the same things, and don't see it, either.

I have read several good books on affairs, but I want to recommend one in particular to you, because it includes an example of an affair that is VERY similar to yours - 20 years, in fact, both affairees married - and, if I recall correctly, there were several starts and stops. The book is: "The State of Affairs", by Mulliken, and the relevant chapter is called "The Consoling Friendship". </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...the only ones I've gotten positive validation from have been those that are deadly to the morals I've always wanted to uphold. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no comment, but am really perplexed by this statement.

Nellie: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sure the medical community would be very grateful to hear that you have managed to discern the true cause of leukemia. And after all those cellular biologists have failed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many in the health care community are starting to see how unresolved anger and other emotions lead to different medical problems, and the associations between emotional life stresses and cancer, heart attacks and strokes have long been established. Harley limits the length of Plan A for his clients because otherwise they become physically ill. Gottman (one of the foremost marriage reserachers around) can predict the diseases wives of the couples he studies will have 3-5 years later by looking at the electrical activity in a muscle used when a husband rolls his eyes. So, she may be right!

John,

I wasn't really trying to shock 17YRS. I was and am trying to find out if she is one of our occasional visitors who just comes to bug people with no real intent to rebuild her marriage, if indeed she is married. I wasn't attempting to perform any sort of therapy with her or on her. It is not my field, and I suspect that if her story is true, that this site won't be able to help her. Why? Because she had an OM, she had other men interested in her, yet she stayed with a man she claims was abusive to her.

Her account is that all of the abuse came with no provocation, and was simply a product of his anger. May be true. All the more reason to leave. She correctly points out I have never been in that situation. I haven't and I won't ever be.

She really hasn't indicated that she sees her behavior in 19 years of marriage and 17 years of affair as a reason that her marriage is in the state it is in. You might note that neither you nor I, John know the state of her marriage. She claims abusive, but she doesn't mention her H other than as her excuse to continue the affair she started apparently before her first child. She doesn't mention why she stayed, except to point out that I didn't/don't exist in such a condition.

She claims she wants advice to avoid the triggers, but no mention of rebuilding her marriage. When asked she avoids saying she has any remorse for her affairs.

It is very interesting that she only wants the triggers to go away, but there is no mention of what she would like her marriage to be. How, she is going to live with herself or her H.

She claims she is going to counseling and that her counselor knows about the affair, but she doesn't offer what the counselor has said about dealing with it.

My point. This situation isn't real OR she doesn't want help, she simply wants comfort.

I may be completely wrong. I really hope that I am. I hope deeply that I am completely misreading what I think I am reading here. But, I do know this. There can be no help from here unless she really wants to receive the help and usually that implies that the person is aware of what they have done to another person and wants to rectify that wrong somehow.

Just my take on this.

JL

I directed 17yrsWS/OW to GQII, I don't believe she's a troll.

If you have concerns about a post or poster, remember you can click the "report post" icon at the bottom of the post and the post is forwarded to the moderators.

Archuletan,

If you believe her to be legit, then I will go with this. Of course it could be argued that my position on this is irrelavent anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> In fact, in some ways it doesn't need to be argued.

Now if we can just figure out what she wants, that would be useful.

JL

And I suppose my daughter's best friend, who came down with leukemia at the age of three, did so because of anger? Emotions do NOT cause cancer. That is completely ridiculous. There are numerous causes of cancer that have been well-established, including exposure to various chemicals and radiation, and genetic predisposition, and of course in many cases the cause is not determined. But to claim that it is her father's own fault that he succumbed to cancer is the height of cruelty, as well as being inaccurate. Perhaps she is fearful that she will suffer a similar fate due to their genetic relationship, and is desperately trying to distance herself from her father.

17,

I have a question, what is it about your marriage that you want to fight to save it?

Just asking.

Thanks,
L.

Hi 17

I'm just now catching up on this thread and I thought I might throw some observations and suggestions into the pot.

First of all, it sounds like you're ready at this point in your life to make some changes. You've seen that this 17-year-long affair didn't live up to the promise you thought it had, and you're wondering where your best course of action lies.

This in itself is progress! No matter what else, you are finally ready to take action on your own behalf, instead of allowing yourself to be tossed around like a rudderless boat.

You need to have a good heart-to-heart with yourself. Picture yourself happy. What does it look like? Who are you with? Are you alone? You need to know what it is you want before you know how to get it.

I don't know the full scope of your marriage or your affair. You describe a husband that is cold and distant (for whatever reason) and a lover who is willing to accept you on his terms only. Obviously, neither of these scenarios will do.

If you want to make a go of your marriage, both of you will have to change. Is your husband willing to do that. Does he want to? And what does he need from you? Are you both willing to put 100 percent of your effort into making this a healthier relationship?

As for your lover, if you want my opinion, you're lucky he's gone back to his wife. Let him stay there. He's been balancing you against his wife for 17 years now, going to you when he can get away with it and returning to her to "mend" his marriage when he needs to. If you ask me, it doesn't sound like he wants to make a serious commitment to either one of you.

You can't let HIS wants dictate what YOU do. He might say the last chapter in this book hasn't been written. It's still within your power to close the cover, put that book back on the shelf and let it collect dust. Do what's best for you.

You've let yourself mourn the loss of your relationship with this man, and that is OK. It is also OK to let yourself be ANGRY at him. He's played you against his wife and filled your head with promises of a great life together without any intention of fulfilling that promise.

Maybe getting angry will help you get over the withdrawl. Maybe the trick is to see this relationship for what it WAS, not what you WISHED it to be.

At least, that's helped a little for me in my case.

As for his comment about Judaism, actually, it brings up a good point. There's a thing we say on Yom Kippur: For sins against G-d, the day of atonement atones. But for sins against other people, the Day of Atonement does not atone, not until the sinner has sincerely sought forgiveness from the one they hurt.

Yes, G-d will forgive you, but that's not the end of the story. Whether you want to stay in your marriage or not, please give serious thought to seeking forgiveness from your husband too.

I understand your safety concerns. Perhaps this is best disclosed when with your marriage counselor present to mediate. Talk to your therapist to devise a strategy, perhaps.

Ultimately, he deserves to know where things stand, too. His life is as much tied up in this mess as yours is, and he deserves to know the truth so he can make the best decisions for himself as well.

I don't know what else I can offer at this point. No matter which road you choose, it will be a long and hard journey. But the destination is worthwhile.