Ok No way are you getting a 2x4 from me . LOL

Theres just a couple of things , I totaly understand about not D yet , support, RO, Money ect.

Lets just make sure that no where in there is an excuse OK .

Also theres my veiw in honesty also , Plaese do not get mad .You know I have followed you SINCE you where "LEARNIN" about all this .

If moving on is what YOU want and feel AT PEACE with this decion then that is the most wonderful feeling to know you can let go of the anger .

With these feeling of freindship and dating I am not saying WH has the right to know but I still would make it some how clear to him that you are now MOVING on in every aspect of your life and you will still not file for D , ( I still wouldn't either just a matter of princeple)
And that there is to be no more contact with him except for the kids . Also that because of the kids there should be no one introduced into there lives(OW or if you start dating) for awhile until things are final (D)and they see that the both of you will be able to PARENT on the same team .

I do hope I am making sense .

Also if you are truely ok with this happening in your life then , talking to him (wh) should be some what easier , it should be very genuine that you feel the peace of it being over .

Ok I am done I hope you are happy and heal yourself from this rollercoaster .

((((((hugs)))))))

Why do I have this weird feeling that now, after I have finally moved forward, BIG TIME, WH is coming out of FOG.
He has been given no real indication from me that I have moved on, communication is minimum, Protection from Abuse Hearing a major LB for both of us, but maybe just the dose of reality that WH needed? Even though he's angry, I think it showed him that I am standing up for myself and demanding to be treated right.
Nothing concrete to give me this feeling, just comments made by WH to MIL and to me.
I'm still moving on, can't wait around for fog to lift any longer....if it does...well, I just don't know anymore.

Plan A is all well and good.

But Plan B kicks A$$. Confidence is sexy. Do you think you would be attracted to a doormat? As soon as you start displaying more confident independent behavior, he's gonna get interested.

It works.

Nothing too dramatic for a change, but some interesting developments. NOt sure how to interpret or if they mean anything at all.

WH & I had several short but fairly civil phone conversations last week. WH's anger is still evident, however at one point I hung up when he got going and he called back much calmer. I just said, "do you feel better now?", his response, "a little".
We proceeded to discuss the kids, his upcoming weekend visit and of all things..baseball!
It was too weird.
He got emotional several times, he cried at one point, when he said he felt bad enough about not being able to watch the playoff game with 12 yr old S, and then cried again, when he said "S probably doesn't want anything to do with me. I did tell him, he shouldn't give up on him, but to keep communicating with him and maybe he'd come around. He needs to let S know that there is a place for him in WH's life.
He said that he would not let visitation schedules interfere with the kids sports activities or any of my plans with them that might come up, he would be flexible.
He came up sat., met at D's hockey, then we went to 16 yr. old's football game with D. We actually sat together, like a family,uggh, he bought me coffee. D swinging between our arms....loving it.
Little things, I know, and definately not Plan B, but I was friendly, looking good and he knew that I had "plans" sat. night. He kept the kids at a motel room. He's still not happy about me not letting him stay at the house, but I'm keeping firm on that.
He did come into the house at the end of the visit and stayed for maybe a 1/2 hr. Very friendly, despite the incredible anger of only a month ago.
He was playing with the dog at one point and said "Dog is probably the only one who misses me" I said quietly, no he's not the only one. WH did not respond or look at me. He did not seem in such a hurry to leave as he has in the past, and the kids were preoccupied, it was mostly just me and him in the kitchen.
I did not talk R, I was tempted to write a letter, but will not. I will just let this all ride. But I can't help thinking that I may be seeing a slight breakthrough of the FOG.
Or maybe he is just looking for a more civil and easy relationship compared to the hell of the past months.
Either way, it did feel good. I just don't want to get my hopes up that he could be reconsidering the A, our marriage, etc. I know he misses the kids, but does he miss me and does he miss us enough?
It's just that he seemed more, I don't know, "interested". He's been so out of it for so long, he was more like himself for the first time in long while.
I'm looking for some feedback, thoughts anyone?

Shugah,

I would say that he's wanting to know the road map back based on what I've learned from my H.

I would love to know Mortarman's thoughts on how to proceed now.

Maybe ask for a response from him.

He wants his marriage and family but the road must seem too long and winding for him and he needs your help. It really sounds encouraging to me.

Mimi,
I have said often, that WH would not know where to begin, if he ever did decide he wanted to come back to the M. Not sure he would even be able to take that first step or know how to.
WH has said to me before, how could it possibly work now? He of course doesn't know what I know, MB, etc.
I do feel that he needs to figure it out. Or we will be back to the old M, where I felt I was doing all the work.
Should there be any help from me in this process and when is the right time to gently put out the breadcrumb trail home?

Mimi,
I have said often, that WH would not know where to begin, if he ever did decide he wanted to come back to the M. Not sure he would even be able to take that first step or know how to.
WH has said to me before, how could it possibly work now? He of course doesn't know what I know, MB, etc.
I do feel that he needs to figure it out. Or we will be back to the old M, where I felt I was doing all the work.
Should there be any help from me in this process and when is the right time to gently put out the breadcrumb trail home?
Also, MIL told me that a couple of weeks ago, WH commented to her something like, "if I went home, the kids would probably be so resentful of what I've done", she said it sounded like he was thinking about it.
I was trying not to put much stock in it. But things seem to be adding up...

Shugah,

It seems to me that so much has happened since your PBL that it might be OK to write another one, coming up with new terms for him to come back.

You wouldn't be doing all the work. He would need to do the work to comply with your terms.

The PBL would need to have all the important MB ingredients.

I would send it now if you want to continue to work on your marriage. He seems open, Shugah. However, you know what's best for you.

I found that it has been helpful to go with "my gut". Believe in your own intuition. I'm hearing that you felt that there is an opening with your WS. I've learned to never give up hope.

You know how awful my H has treated me. I thought he tried to kill me, really, on one crazy night several months ago. Now, he is really acting like himself again. I can give a testimony as to how even the worse situation can really change- with lots of hard work and effort, of course.

I've learned that he must have been temporarily insane during certain phases of the A. There are a lot of events that he says that he does not even remember. We here call it being IN THE FOG.

Shugah,

Good to hear from you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I can't help thinking that I may be seeing a slight breakthrough of the FOG. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It might be...but there is no way to know right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or maybe he is just looking for a more civil and easy relationship compared to the hell of the past months.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe...but again, no way to know right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Either way, it did feel good. I just don't want to get my hopes up that he could be reconsidering the A, our marriage, etc. I know he misses the kids, but does he miss me and does he miss us enough? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know Shugah, Just Learning gave me a great big piece of advice right before my wife came home...right when she started askign questions. I had all of these same questions as you, and many more. And JL said that in his life, almost all of the important decisions were really made for him...that in the end, the obvious right answer came out. And it did for me. And it will for you.

So, as you said above, just let it ride for awhile. If he is just being civil, then civility is a lot better for you and the kids than what you were going through.

If it is him peeking his head through the fog, the last thing you need to do is scare him back inside.

Again, as JL says..."Steady as she goes." Then when more concrete info comes in, you can post here and come up with a gameplan on what to do.

So far, so good, Shugah.

In His arms.

The LAYMAN EXPERT, MORTARMAN, has spoken.

I would listen to him.

However, do LISTEN TO YOUR GUT INSTINCTS!!!

Take Care.

THANKS!
I figure for now I'll just let it ride a bit.
I've come this far, what's a little more time!
The holidays right around the corner, worry me. Again, opportunity for niceness, civility, or true foglifting, it will be confusing for sure.
In the meantime I continue moving forward as if my life will be without him, it is the only way I can manage.
I don't post as much anymore, don't seem to have the same "need" as I once did, but I still come here to lurk. I think it is an indication that I have truly begun to move forward.
Thanks, guys, You'll be hearing from me.
Mimi, by the way, I am so HAPPY for you!! Ive been following!
Mortarman, hope all is well and that you too are moving forward in Recovery!

Shugah,

I was reading along and MM comes along and gives you the advice I was going to offer. It appears that you are NOT in a Plan B per se'. More of a plan A with separation thrown in.

I agree with MM I don't think you will have to decide, the data will make your decision for you as time goes on. Have patience, the holidays will be much harder on him than on you and the kids.

I would also like to offer you some insight I recently acquired about Plan A. In posting to a variety of people who were wondering why Plan A was NOT working, I realized that they didn't really understand it.

I think given what you have said, that my understanding of Plan A might be of use to you. I believe that Harley recommends plan A for ONE major reason. It offers a way back for those WS's, that are having second thoughts. It shows that the BS can make changes, does want them back, and is willing to accept their role in the weakening of the marriage. In short, the Plan A is holding the door open for the WS.

It seems to me that the WS's that take advantage of Plan A to come back, are those that left for one reason, and then realize that reason wasn't very good and that they need to reevaluate the situation. For those holding the door open works, AND it plants the seed that the BS is capable of forgiving even if Plan B follows. It is the seed planting that is key.

You mentioned that your H doesn't know the way back and you worry that he won't find it. With plan A you hold the door open and you softly call to him, leading him back. You cannot force him back as you well know, but you can softly and gently call to him, and he may just follow your voice.

It sounds to me your H has many regrets already and he is feeling the loses. Will that translate into him coming back and committing to the marriage??? No one knows. But, your actions, and his suggest that there is the potential. So the message is "steady as she goes", but keep your eyes open. Things are changing, but the direction is yet to be determined.

That is my best guess.

God Bless,

JL

Shugah,

You have received wonderful advice from Mimi, Mortarman and Just Learning. There is not much I can add to it. I agree with them. Hold steady, be patient (tough, I know!), and more clues will come your way. Sounds very much like your WH is testing the water. He realized a little bit this weekend that the water is lukewarm, not icy cold as he expected. Allow him to take that information, digest it, get comfortable with it and he will probably make another tiny move.

Anyway, just wanted you to know I am here. My warmest thoughts are with you as always. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

*S*

<small>[ October 20, 2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: *Sparkle* ]</small>

JL,

Sorry to steal your thunder! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Shugah, listen to JL. I am only giving you advice that I received from him, Steve Harley, and many others that helped me thru this.

As everyone that has been here awhile can verify...there isreally nothing new under the sun. WSs are remarkably similar. Sure there are different "flavors." And as JL spelled out, some will never get it. But most do, given the ideal circumstances. If you plow your fields the best you can, seed them well, and keep them watered...then that's all you can do. He will decide if he will grow. And if he doesnt...well, there was nothing you could do anyway.

Keep up the good work!

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WSs are remarkably similar. Sure there are different "flavors."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Take your pick of WS, we got Rocky Road, Pistachio Nut, Banana Walnut, Cherry Almond, Black Cherry, Candy Cane, Chunky Monkey, you name'em we got'em. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Significant observation about me:
It's been 2 days since I saw WH, a visit described above as a wonderful improvement over the past several months.
I have not cried, or obsessed (much!)or had that overwhelming feeling/need to communicate with him.
I still want to have my family whole again, but it is not that desperate, oh my god, this has to work, feeling of the past.
Time does work wonders!!
I can wait this out. I won't scare him back into the deep Fog, I have to have faith in the man I knew. If he was as good as I believed, his goodness will get the better of him and win out.

Shugah,

I totally understand where you are - finally.

You might want to read a recent post I wrote on the Plan B thread.

Time does work wonders, and you will see how I am finally at a peaceful point.

*S*

shugah,

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I read your last post and must say, I am proud that you are able to recognize your accomplishments.

You are headed the recovery way. Hope your H wakes up in time before you lose him in the dust. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I like the way you posted about him coming to his senses. If he were to read that....... I think he would concur. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

hugz,
L.

I'm a bit confused thinking about NC and Plan B.

How is NC with OP supposed to get WS through withdrawal and over the A, YET Plan B which is just another name for NC for BS's supposed to do the opposite. That is, to get WS missing BS and family and start the process of lifing the fog....

All morning long, I thought of calling WH and suggesting D & I meeting him halfway for a visit. (The other kids had plans). It was a very strong feeling...but, I didn't call. Finally after noon time, I had D call to say hi, and then we spoke. Nothing major, just chit chat. I then told him what I had been thinking all morning, he said, Oh, I didn't have any plans today...
I was surely expecting rejection...but MIMI, I should have gone with my gut on this one and called early in the day when there was time to do it...the fact that he was open to that is a far cry from the not so distant past weeks, months.
I'm just not sure that Plan B, which I tried so hard at all summer, had much affect...except to help him over his withdrawals of missing us?? He did say that he did a change of address (after all this time??), and that I'll need to get the bills that I pay put in my name or they'll go to his address....it felt like he was taking a step of permanence...he now has a car registered in another state...all steps of making this separation permanent...?
I'm thinking way too much as a result of a long, boring and lonely weekend, mostly just D & me, I never even got dressed today...sappy movies and radio...not good for the lovelorn!!
I'll plan for next weekend, don't want to do this again...

Shugah:

How are you? I know the weekends are awful.

I am a real strong believer in doing what YOU think is best in your own particular situation. That may mean a modified PLAN B. I really don't think Steve Harley would disagree with strategizing to do what would be best for YOU and your particular situation. That's how he has counseled me.

Looking back over my situation and listening to what my H is saying to me now, it was crucial for me to open the door at the right times during PLAN B. Also, maintaining PLAN B was also crucial. It scares him that I will suspend all contact with him if he resumes contact with the OW. He checked me out before his plan to leave this time, asking if we could be friends and I made it clear that we could not. He knows now that I can do that, that I am not going to be just sitting around waiting for him.

So, I'm still a believer in a MODIFIED PLAN B. Mortarman though is the master on how and when to best accomplish this. I went with my GUT and it worked out for me.

Hang in there. All of this is difficult and awful for us.

It seems that even my son and H are beginning to work on their relationship, Shugah. I thought that could never happen. So, Shugah, if you can bear through the pain, never give up hope for change. It can happen!!!