What a long strange trip.....and it's not over yet!!

I called WH last night.
12 yr.old S in crisis, depression like for a while, seemed to peak over the past several days.
Comments of killing himself and last night, "I'll be dead by morning", really has me spooked.

I really think that good visit with WH last saturday set him off, S knows what he's been missing, enjoyed WH's attention. Really feeling the abandonment, WH gone, Mom working all summer for the 1st time, big bros. gone alot....
I tried to draw him out a bit last night, took him out for supper, rented a movie, he's a tough one anyways, quiet. To make a long story short he didn't want to call WH but wanted me to, to see if he would come up this weekend...
I called, not at his apt., call his cell, he's "out".
Told WH about my concerns, told him I had a call into a counselor because I didn't want to let this go. He says, "no you shouldn't". (Where's the WE, he has two parents, or used to)Tells me he can't come this weekend (OW's kid free weekend), planning to come next weekend and can he sleep at the house fri. night so he can get a full day visit in on sat. Can I go somewhere for the night?!!!!! He caught me off guard, I said I'll consider it. But NO WAY! It confuses the kids more.
He gives me some finance info that he had called earlier about while we were out(I didn't realize he had called)Blah, Blah, your son is in crisis here, and you can't be bothered to come see him, plans with OW more important? I didn't even get into it though.
I told S that WH was planning on coming next week, S was still pretty down. I got him to bed finally, I said I'll see you in the morning, he said, "I'll be dead by morning!"
I stayed up all night, kept checking on him, tried calling WH again much later, wanted him to know this was serious not just some ploy of mine to get him here or somethng, I was scared. He was Not home, and cell phone OFF! CAn you believe that!
Today, I came home from work after only 2 hrs.,exhausted, didn't want S alone. He was still down, took him to a Dr.'s appt. for a sore throat, and talked to her about it. She agreed on the counseling.
S & I spent the afternoon together, talked about the counseling (he wasn't happy about it), but thank God, he has really come around since this morning!!! We played cards tonight, going to beach tomorrow, and I will probably take some time off next week to spend with him. I just can't worry about money right now.
I had left a message this morning for WH to call me when he got a chance. He called when we got back, but by then, I was feeling like, who needs you, what kind of person have you become, that you would put your needs before that of your child in pain! Again, I didn't get into it, just said, things are ok now, I'm fine, S is fine, goodbye.

So I'm feeling better about S, will follow through with the couseling, definately.

Backing off communication with WH again. Have many unpaid bills to question him about but will do it through go-between again.

If he cares enough about his S, and he calls,I will give necessary info only. Will not LB, even though I could ring his neck right about now!
I was very upset last night, but more at peace tonight.

Have really had about enough, Fog or no Fog, this is just too much! What has happened to this man?
A must still be going strong, no end in sight?

Divorce process looming closer? I think so.

[ April 18, 2004, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Shugah ]

Shulgah,
I don't know your whole story but I was about to be sick when I read this post. I am not usually extremely harsh but your husband's lack of concern for your CHILD who is about to commit suicide terrifies me and is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard. I can't imagine someone being that deep in the fog that their 12 year old is hurting so badly he would think of killing himself but the parent just has to be with the OW. Oh my goodness. I can't imagine the horror you went through in those critical hours. My dad's old girlfriend was bipolar and she killed herself 2 years ago so I have been through the pain of suicide and I urge you not only to get counseling for you and for your son, but to call a crisis center immediately or check him into a hospital for depression the minute he talks this way again. Unfortunately this burden is placed solely on you because of the incredible selfishness of your husband, and I don't know how you could make your marriage work with such a man- but the main concern is your son and please remember, you can only do so much by yourself. Seek out help. You will be in my prayers.

Wow, really sorry to hear bout this Shugah. I pray that your son will be ok. Even though he is quiet, keep trying to talk to him. I know I clam up a lot and hold in feelings when I'm down. It is definitely not a good thing to let him go on like that and counseling does sound good.

I didn't learn how to deal with my emotions and depression when I was younger and drug it with me all of my life. I'm trying to work on it, but sometimes I revert back. So getting him to understand his emotions and how to deal with it now is very important. It's easy to slip into depression and feel like no one cares and shut out the world. Just make sure he knows you care how he feels. Try to talk to him about that if you can.

Dear Shugah, no words of advice , just much sympathy. I am not in plan b yet but my H. has done the same kind of things. I am so sorry for all your pain and your S. it is so hard on them, they don't understand and 13 is bad enough without all this crap going on too. My 18yr old was in a bad car accident a mo. ago-he is doing great now-and my H. was there but the week he came home from the hospital was the 4th of july weekend and he took off for 3 days. He did call but so what-he should have been here with his family. I just think they are so afraid to tick the OW off that they will do whatever out of desperation and if that's a relationship then they can have it. It's not based on anything real and lasting. My H. is so afraid that she'll find out about us cause he knows she wouldn't put up with it, so he's traded someone who will forgive him for someone who won't. Ha ha laugh's on them I guess. We just have to be the strong ones and it is hard with kids. I'm glad your son is doing better and that you can take time off for him and be with him. Be proud of yourself because you are doing what is right and best for your family and your kids will remember that.

Shugah,
It's your choice about whether you want to work on your marriage. However, it seems too early to think about divorce. That would be even more horrible for your son.

I have sons that are struggling through this too so I really empathize with you.

What is happening is that your WS is deep in fog. I've learned from my experience and from the folks here that this behavior is typical. Think of him as being like an alcoholic. His main focus is getting another drink. The alcoholic lets everything else go. That's what WSes do when deeply involved in the A. They can come out of it. My WS is sticking his head out of the fog now although it remains all around him. They are not themselves. I always say that my WS was abducted by an alien.

[ July 25, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Adgirl,
I don't want to make my marriage work with such a man, I want to make it work with my H, who was nothing like this man! That is what makes this all the scarier, that I don't have that H to share any of this with.

S is doing much better today, spent the day at the beach and went to oldest S's softball game this morning. I'll get him to counseling as soon as I can get an appt.,in the meantime I'll try to give him extra attention, we've been playing more card games, etc. He's pretty needy right now.

Mimi, it's me. You've been looking for me?

I got it Shugah. Found you.

Shugah,

On the issue of your son, listen to ADGirl. Your son is crying out for help. Do not wait on this!

On your husband, I do not know the whole circumstances (when this happened, have you done Plan A, have you tried Plan B, etc). I do know that if he is asking to stay at your house and for you to leave for a day so he can see your S, then you are allowing him to eat cake.

Sugah...time to draw some boundaries...VERY STIFF ONES! Without all the knowledge of your particular situation, I'll make a guess here on where you are at. If I am right, then it is time to go to Plan B immediately.

No you have a son together. Okay. I have three kids with my wife. But, when I went to Plan B (the kids were living with me), I found a way to make it work without compromising or without handing him big pieces of cake.

You can use an intermediary to talk through and exchange your son through. Thee need not be any contact.

If not, when you go to Plan B, then make all contact via paper or email...and ONLY on business and child issues. No relationship talk. No I love you's. When he starts to cut it off, refer him to the Plan B letter which you will have sent him, and tell him you would love to talk right after the terms of that letter have been met.

JustLearning had a great post recently. And it had to be with BSs and WSs being friends, even after divorce. Why would you want to be friends with someone that would treat you and your son this way. You would NEVER have a friend like that, I would bet. Then why be friends with the WS?

Some say for the sake of the child...but guess what? Even my 5 year old knew what was going on. What I did for the sake of my children was draw a boundary around us, not letting my wife's unacceptable behavior any where near them. And for the sake of my being able to be the father they deserved, I had to go to Plan B in order to recover myself and be the best I could be.

As the Harley's say, Plan A is when you are trying to separate the WS from the OP. Barring that, or when the WS is on the fence, then it is time to go to Plan B.

Shugah, your WH is running all over you and your son. Protect yourselves now. Protect that love ou mentioned that you still have for your real husband, not that fake imposter.

Read around on here the success stories. All of them had to go through this. Your WH is going to have to go to hell and back before he "gets it." Time that you get on with sending him there. That is if you really want your real husband back.

In the meantime, protect yourself, protect that son of yours. Pull back. Send a Plan B letter. Go Dark (my FAVORITE saying!). Do not give in. Do not call, talk to him, etc. Dont even get in the same room with him. Like I said, use an intermdiary. All contact should be thru that person, or via paper or email. Very impersonal. And no contact by you on anything outside of financial issues, and issues surrounding your son.

One more note. My wife was notorious about turning off her cell when she had the OM over her apartment. Several times, I had sick kids, or one of my sons sleep walking, crying. I tried to call and could not get her. I left a message, and didnt hear back for days.

I finally decided that as a wife, she had checked out. But also as an acceptable mother. So, I took on all roles. In the meantime, since she was still legally their mom, I made "adequate" attempts to contact her on issues surrounding the kids. But once I did, I did not try to keep finding her. Not my business. Her fault if she didnt find out or respond in time.

So, if something is wrong with your son, for example, then send a message. And that's all you do. Leave the particulars, and a way to contact you or your son, if it is an emergency. And then proceed on as if he has no father.

Because I tell you this. Your husband has been abducted by aliens, as Mimi said. Unfortunately, so has your son's father.

In His arms.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shugah:
Adgirl,
I don't want to make my marriage work with such a man, I want to make it work with my H, who was nothing like this man! That is what makes this all the scarier, that I don't have that H to share any of this with.

S is doing much better today, spent the day at the beach and went to oldest S's softball game this morning. I'll get him to counseling as soon as I can get an appt.,in the meantime I'll try to give him extra attention, we've been playing more card games, etc. He's pretty needy right now.

Mimi, it's me. You've been looking for me?<hr /></blockquote>Shugah,
I understand completely and hope I didn't offend you by being too harsh. I was just worried about your son. I am glad he is doing better and I hope your husband comes out of the fog- It is scary when we are with our normal husband one day, and then he becomes a complete stranger. I know he is capable of changing and I hope that he does.
Best wishes.

Mimi-Thanks for finding me!
AdGirl,Eduard, Day by Day-Thanks for your concern, and for responding!

Mortarman-thanks for your post and advice also. Sorry to waste your time on a "newbie" type response, cuz I'm not a newbie. You know me and have posted before. See Mimi's thread, it may help. Yes, my WH seems to have checked out as a father. I called him the other night, one, because that seemed to be what S wanted, to see if Dad could come up again this weekend and two, because I felt he had a right to know what was happening.
However, I now know that he may want to know, but doesn't seem to care enough to do anything to help! So I'll keep him informed, via go-between, but that's it. And my answer is definately NO, for letting him spend the night, it will only confuse the kids, and I do not want him in my home that I care about and love and make a home!

S doing much better, needs lots of extra attention though and that can be exhausting with everything else. But we're coping.
Planning some fun outings this week, taking time off from work, can't worry about the financial piece for now. It's so far gone anyways, my pittance of a paycheck doesn't do much.
I'm just upset that WH didn't call all weekend to check on S. He just doesn't get that his actions
matter. He has really checked out on his family.
This is the part that I really don't understand. I mean, I get it, the addiction, the fog, but it's so far from my reality that I can't believe that someone can disengage like this. I am so saddened by it. My family means the world to me and I can't imagine life without them (including WH), how can he move on without us in his life? Is he really perhaps so much happier that it is worth the trade-off? If so, why was I so clueless to his unhappiness? Was I just in denial? Because during periods when I wasn't thrilled with things, I never thought that life without my family was an option that would make me happier! I just would try to look for ways to get me through, to change things.
Life is tough and it just seems to get tougher every day around here. Just when things seem to ease up a bit, some other challenge comes along.

Hang in there. You are doing fine. There are a few more battles to fight before this is over. Just keep moving forward.

Remember, an affair is an addiction, hence the fog. If we were talking about the fact that your husband had left, for example, because he is a cocaine addict, and had abandoned you and your son, then you would be upset. But guess what? You would understand. You would understand that addiction does this to a person. That they have to get that high, no matter what. Go watch that Diane Lane movie that came out last year, Unfaithful. They do so well in having her show the addictive side of the OM.

Your husband is addicted to the OW. and just like an addiction to cocaine, it aint good for him. The problem is that an addict doesnt just screw up his life, he screws up those around him as well. Go to alacoholic sites, or drug user sites on the web. See what they suggest doing to counteract the actions of your husband. Then, in the text, take out "alcohol" or "cocaine" and put in "OW."

The steps to protecting yourself are the same. The steps back from his addiction are the same. Shugah, he is an addict. It is the hardest thing to understand because we dont think our WSs are addicted. That they are being rational. They are not...they are under the influence.

Hang in there...you are doing fine.

In His arms.

[ July 28, 2003, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

Update on S, he seems to be doing much better. We went out of state to see family earlier this week and he decided to spend the rest of the week with my brothers & families. He has been having fun, but is ready to come home.
He wants to come home tomorrow, rather than wait till the next day and catch a ride back with WH who is coming to visit anyways. I have to wonder why S doesn't want to wait and ride with him? I think S is disappointed that WH would not come to see him last week when he really needed him. WH has not called all week to check on S! He also did not return calls to my go-between friend, she finally caught up with him today(she mostly had questions regarding unpaid bills). He never even asked about S even after she told him that he may need a ride home, he just said, sure let me know if he does and what the details are.
I'm tired of wondering what is going on in what's left of WH's brain! I keep busy, not much choice there, and still, he's on my mind!
Today I am angry also, when I suppose I shouldn't be. S's friend's Dad called (he's been a good friend to S through all of this) to invite S along for the boy's 1st professional baseball game next week!! Road trip to go to Yankee Stadium first, then 2 days later, Fenway! I am thrilled for the boys but I am just disappointed and sad and angry that S's first Red Sox Game will be without his Dad! And Dad is a big sports nut! He even lives in Boston area and has not taken S to a game! I know that funds are tight but I wouldn't be surprised if WH has been to a game or two himself this season. And that would be the kicker!
I hope it feels like a kick in the gut when he finds out! I'm just so angry right now!
It's good that I am in Plan B, even though I still need to stop thinking about him so much, I'm at least not calling him and telling him what a selfish jerk he is being! I fear I will not have any love left before long if I don't see some sign of the man I once knew soon. I just need a small sign, I can't hold out much hope like this.

Hang in there, Shugah.

Reread MM's post about the addictiveness of the A. It may help to look at it like a sickness that he has in order to get rid of some of the anger.

WH picked two youngest up for a visit today, I stayed out of sight, though I caught a glimpse of him at the door and putting the kids in the car and when they pulled away, I was in tears.
I pulled myself together, did some housework and readied myself to go out for the afternoon, just window shopping type stuff.
Then WH called from the Mall, 40 min. away, asked if I could meet him there at 4pm to pick up kids. I hesitated and then said ok, (I was thinking of going there anyways but didn't tell him that). Then he said, "will you be hungry, do you want to get a bite to eat when you get here?"
I hesitated again and then said, I'd rather not.
I picked the kids up, I hardly spoke to him, I just directed my talking to the kids about what they did, bought, etc. It only took a few minutes while he said drive careful, and we left.

So what's with the invite? Just to pay me for coming to get the kids? Just 2 weeks ago, he couldn't stand my "f#*#in guts", screaming at me on the phone, "this is gonna get ugly".

Now he wants to sit across a table from me?

I'm gonna take this as my sign, albeit a small and insignificant one I'm sure. Nonetheless, it's the most I've seen in a very long while, especially since Plan B started.

When he asked me, I shouldv'e said, Are you still seeing OW?, if he said, yes, then I should have said, No. Right now I'm not sure if the A is still on, though I assume it is, but at least I would have got an answer.

So, on to living Plan B, trying not to think so much about him. Trying not to put much thought into his invitation either. It was probably nothing.
(Already S is acting out, I'm beginning to see a pattern here, after visits with Dad. Trying to sort out what's resulting from these visits and what's "normal" pre-teen crap that I got from older S's)
ANyways, I'm feeling better now than I did earlier today. Gonna go relax, put my feet up with a good book. Liked ISGirls idea of a warm bubble bath...

I think the invite was your sign. It was an attempt at cake-eating. OW is not meeting a need whether it's for conversation or the need to feel like a family man. He did not have to ask you. It was what he wanted to do. Allow yourself to think positively about it. It will lift your spirits. JMHO.

[ August 02, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Shugah,

Hi again. Just posted to you on my thread.

Did you ever get your S in counseling? I sure hope so; think it is really necessary. Such a difficult age in a perfect world, let alone when the parental relationship is in crisis. My S was 14 when my H and I married (I had been a single mother from the time by child was a year old). It was extremely tough on him, and in hindsight, I wish I had put him into counseling then. Instead, he had problems in late teens that I wish we had never had to go thru. And that was a marriage, not a separation!

Anyway, hope you did the bubble bath thing. I did, but never got to the toenails - I was too doggoned relaxed to take on a "chore." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I do believe your H is missing you. He is still on the fence, however, and not ready to commit to you and the M, but wanted to just stick his toe in and test the water with the invitation to dinner. You did absolutely the right thing by telling him no. Think about how it would have given him a "fix" - the whole family back together, in a restaurant, having dinner. Plus it would be a safe, public place where relationship talk could be avoided. He would have really taken a big, big piece of cake! Congratulations on your strength.

Gotta run now. More later!

Just finished a letter to WH, keeping him informed about S's recent behaviour, depression, and my attempts to get him scheduled for counseling.
Don't want to be accused of not keeping him in the loop. I kept it very factual, clinical almost.
IT is so hard to keep my "opinion" out of it. But I think I did.
Plan B is hard when there is still serious stuff to communicate.
It's been hard enough pinning him down about bill that need to be paid, etc. Now this.

I'm feeling very frustrated lately with this whole Plan B thing.
I know the reasoning, I know it works, but lately I'm feeling like I need to Plan A again, tell him again and show him again that I still love him.
Maybe this lack of contact just proves to him that I've moved on and that's a good thing for him.
Maybe it's just the thing he was hoping for.
I know, he needs to get all EN's met by OW and then see it go downhill from there. But what if she can meet them all?
I feel like just reaching out once again, to see if the fog is clearing at all.
Someone talk me out of it...
I'm in a letter writing mood, or late last night, I almost called him just to say I love you and miss you. But I didn't.
It's just that I can't believe that I miss him still so much. Some nights are just so lonely.
Maybe I don't need him, maybe I just need someone, maybe I should move on, give him the D he wants, (but hasn't mentioned again for months), and find someone who can make me feel special, loved, wanted.
I'm tired of feeling this way.

I'm feeling very frustrated lately with this whole Plan B thing.
It's difficult, for sure.

Maybe this lack of contact just proves to him that I've moved on and that's a good thing for him.
Which is why in your Plan B letter you stated exactly what you were doing and why. Then there is NO misunderstanding of your intentions.

Maybe it's just the thing he was hoping for.
In a way it is. Now he doesn't have to worry about you getting in the way of his "fun."

I know, he needs to get all EN's met by OW and then see it go downhill from there.
But the point is that it's not always "fun." Reality kicks in and they have to deal with it. Bills to pay, car breaks down, dineer needs to get made, laundry, etc.

But what if she can meet them all?
Then after a while, he will see that their "relationship" is not really that different than the one you had. Except that you guys were otgether for xx years and you are actually doing something (MB) to teach you about relationships. Also, you are willing to stick it out while he is having an affair. You are giving so much for your relationship and getting nothing in return. How selfless is that?

I feel like just reaching out once again, to see if the fog is clearing at all.
It's natural to want to see something, ANYTHING for the ws.

I'm in a letter writing mood, or late last night, I almost called him just to say I love you and miss you. But I didn't.
If you aren't doing it, start a journal. You can write all these thoughts down. It helps you to get them sorted out and to help you decide on your next move(s).

It's just that I can't believe that I miss him still so much. Some nights are just so lonely.
Maybe I don't need him, maybe I just need someone, maybe I should move on, give him the D he wants, (but hasn't mentioned again for months), and find someone who can make me feel special, loved, wanted.
So now is the time to MAKE SURE you do NOT get into a situation where someone else can fill your needs.

Once you get a little taste, it's too easy to get sucked into it & forget what you are doing. Keep your mind focused on what you are doing and do it. When you are ready to divorce, you will.

Thanks Chris.
You've replied before to me when I was just "Learnin".
I think that my situation may be more difficult and hopeless because of the fact that WH has been on the road, living out of state for the better part of 4 yrs. now. Even though he was coming home frequently and I still felt part of a partnership and we talked of the future when he'd be home for good, maybe it's just been too long for him.
When he say's "I've been away too long", "We've grown apart", maybe in our situation it's true. I'm beginning to really doubt what I always believed we had. For many years we were good together, and I thought we were just making the best of a difficult situation (his having to work away) and that he still really loved me.
I still have a hard time accepting that he'd rather be away from his 4 kids, who I always thought he adored. Is she really worth it?
Maybe he is really happier?
I'm just a bit down this weekend, trying not to dwell on what was and what may never be again.

I have great kids though. Had them all here together for dinner tonight, a rare occasion these days. 18 yr. old S came by, and 16 yr. old S treated us to lobsters! WH called while they were all here, I'm glad of the timing. I answered but he just asked for 12 yr. old S, and then spoke to the other boys but he never asked for 4 yr. old D.
What the hell goes on in his head?

Hi Shugah! Love the name. Are you originally from the south? Glad to see you're back.

As you may remember, my WH moved in with OW on New Year's Eve, and I sent the Plan B letter early Feb. It's been a long trip, I've learned a lot about myself during this time. It's hard to stick to Plan B, but really, what else would be better? The WS is lost, addicted, abducted by aliens, whatever, but definitely not the person we have loved and made a life with. To get back on the rollercoaster is SO DESTRUCTIVE to the BS!

Shugah, when your WH contacts you when he is still with OW you know it makes you feel awful. Protect yourself, don't engage him. Just give him the info he needs to know about your kids, finances, etc. Just the facts, ma'am. You're doing this for you. If he decides to end it with OW, great, then you can talk about reconciliation. If he doesn't come back to you, then you'll have to adjust to the kind of life you're living now anyway. Either way, Shugah, I just don't see a better way to live during this tough time.

Please don't doubt youself about the life you and your H had all those years. It WAS real. He's just trying to rationalize/justify his actions. If he was so sure of his choice to be with OW he would have DV'd you a long time ago.

How are your kids doing? It sounds like you had a great dinner! Are you having as much rain as we are here in NY? I was thinking of you today as I mowed the lawn, it's neverending, isn't it?

Hang in there, Shugah. The A has to run its course, there's nothing you can do to speed up its demise. Tonight, after more than 7 months, I got a call from my WH, he wants to know if we can reconcile. I told him he had to end it with OW first, then call me back when he was ready, re-read the Plan B letter. You know what, I was really calm. It's because of Plan B. If he never calls again, or if reconciliation doesn't work out, I'll be OK because I've had to face the reality that I might be without him and I'll still be able to live a good life.

You can do this, Shugah!

Lablady

Me BS 48
WH 48
M 25 yrs
S 25, D 23
OW 45, widow, co-worker
WH had 2 previous A's, 15 yrs ago
This D-day 7/02
WH went back and forth btwn me and OW late last summer through Christmas
WH moves in w/OW New Year's Eve
Plan B letter sent 2/03
Very minimal contact for 7 months
8/09/03 WH calls, wants to know if we can reconcile. I'm skeptical, but I'll listen when the A is over

LL,
Is this the first time WH has called you about reconciliation?
How did that make you feel? Does it scare you, now that you have been plan Bing and getting on with your life.
I often wonder how I would feel if that ever happens. As much as I think I want my H back, I'm not sure if it would scare the hell out of me if I was faced with the possibility.
However, I still want that chance and I hope you get it too.
Keep us posted. Have you checked out ISGirls, Plan B support thread yet?

Shugah -

Yes, this is WH's first attempt to reconcile in 221 days. At first I didn't know why he was calling, 50/50 Dv or reconciliation talk. My heart was pounding until I realized he was trying to explore the possibility of getting back together, then I was in control of the sitch again.

I have MANY questions this morning. I'm scared, not so much for myself getting hurt again b/c I'll be VERY careful if this reconciliation stuff goes any further, but b/c I can't stand to think of WH going back into the hole he's dug himself. The A is just so WRONG, so DIRTY, I don't want to associate myself with it ever again.

I asked him if the A was over, he said, "If you mean the situation I've been in, no." I said well then we can't talk about US until you've ended it. Call me back when you're ready. That was it. I told him I would NEVER be a part of a triangle again.

Not sure what prompted his call at this time. Just a peek out of the fog? Test the waters? He'd done that repeatedly before Plan B. After 7 months of living on my own I am 80% OK with a Dv if that's what happens. Maybe 90%. I am so much stronger that I was last summer/fall/winter/spring. Not scared of living alone, although I admit I like having people around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I just read all of ISGirl's latest posts, false recovery is torture. I like the Plan B support group idea. My problem is that I'm such a slow writer! It takes me forever to post a reply, and I don't even have much to say! Believe me I'd write to more posters if I could get faster at it.

I'm thinking about starting a new thread. If I start now, maybe by tonight I'll have it done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hope you have a good day, Shugah. Stay dry!

Lablady

Screw Plan B!
I called WH last night, I was so ticked off.
WH met 12 yr. old S outside the baseball stadium yesterday to give him some $$ and he had OW with him! First time for 12 yr. old to see her!

Now this is after I had informed him with a letter about everything that has been going on with S's emotions? did he think I was making it up?

I asked WH, are you not sensitive at all to your children's feelings or needs? He says yes he is. He trys to explain away how OW's being there was not supposed to happen, he was going to walk down to S's bus, but that S and friends were already walking towards the car, and OW of course was outside the car. Bull#*%*! WH did nothing to make sure she was not there, she should not have even have been with him, they only live a short distance away.

Then he goes on to say that he wants to come up sat. or sun. (which is best for me?) and that he wants to take 2 youngest to the amusement park. ANd could I meet them there(just like his last visit with them to the mall!) so that he didn't have to drive the hour back to bring them home???? I said no. He goes on to say how I want him to see the kids more, but I won't HELP HIM OUT!!!! HUH?
That got to me! I said,help you out?, who helps me out? Do you ever wonder how I get through my day, every day, getting everything done, working, taking care of the kids? And 2 days out of the month you come to see two of the kids and you want me to help you out?
He also wanted to know if 16 yr. old S could meet him to pick up the kids? He never spends any time with the older kids, so how does that make them feel, that Dad only wants to see them if they can Help him out?
At one point I asked him if ever takes into consideration the best interest of his kids? He says, Of course? I said you didn't when you decided to leave your family. There was complete silence for a long time.
He made the usual comments about how I'm just trying to make him look bad,(so sick of that one), how he wants to see the kids more but that I won't let him take them for 2 days (S does not want to go)or let him stay at the house and I told Wh that he knows that I am protecting my kids from meeting OW and that reality is that when you divorce you don't get to stay at my house! He has no answer to that.
He also asked why I could call him, he thought I didn't want to talk to him(planb), he said he got a tongue lashing from friend when he called me but I can break the rules. I said that's right, because they're MY rules, set up to protect me, and if I break them, I'm the one who pays dearly for it. By this time I was crying and ended the call.
Yeah, so I screwed up Plan B, get out the 2x4's, I was upset for a little while last night, but I'm ok this morning. Just very frustrated and sad.

Shugah,

Okay, so you called him. Did you break Plan B? Sort of. You see, you have children. And so far, you have set up a system where the two of you could interact concerning them. But, him bringing OW around them was a huge over-the-line deal! So, in my opinion, I believe he needed the butt chewing.

Look, Plan B is all about giving him reality AND protecting you. But in Plan B, you still have to be Mom. You still have to protect those kids from your husband and his insanity right now. I have seen what happens when someone hurts a woman's children. There is nothing fiercer (is that a word?).

I think your husband got the message. I think he now knows a few key things...

He knows that you are serious about your children & WILL protect them.</li>
He now is thinking about what you said about how you are there and does he think about what is going on day-to-day while he lives in Fantasyland.</li>
The whole conversation was a dose of reality for him.</li>
You have now drawn even tighter boundaries, because you are limiting ANY help by you for him (this is a GREAT thing...let him do ALL the work in seeing the kids...why help him when he is going to do stupid things like bringing the OW around them?).</li>

Shugah, I think this might have helped both of you. He has seen that you are not a doormat. He now knows that you wont help him in any way, even with seeing his kids. If he wants to see them, then HE can make the effot and do all the work. And of course, no way that man steps one foot back into your house.
It helped you because I think, with the tighter boundaries, you will do even better in Plan B. look, did he say anything about the OW and how he thought it might be GOOD for the kids to meet her? No! He KNOWS it isnt right. He KNOWS that the kids dont want to meet her. He knows his relationship with her is wrong on so many levels.

Instead, he makes excuses like he did. Shugah, he is still living the Big Lie. He is still trying to make himself believe it. And you. But you didnt fall for it.

Reality WILL step in soon. I can promise you that. Once it does, you will then find out what caliber of husband you have. Until reality steps in, stay in Plan B. Go back to the darkness for him. he tried to do a stupid thing, and you fired a warning shot across his bow. He now knows that you are going to be a woman to reckon with if he continues down this road.

Let him stew on this for awhile. You just calm down and go back to work on your family.

The problem is still his!

In His arms.

Thanks so much MM for getting back to me so soon.
I'm always uptight after such a phone call.

I wish I could be as optimistic as you seem to be about seeing something break soon.
I just really think he may be happy with his life and sees no reason or way to come back.

I'll retreat back into PLAN B and try to remain there as much as possible.

I know you thought at times that your W had really traded in her life for good, but yet you kept to the Plan and she came back.

I still find it hard to believe that the Fog has settled in so thickly and that WH cannot see beyond himself!!

Hope things are getting better for you & Mrs.MM, I know you had hit a bit of a bump in recovery. Take care.

Hey Shugah...no problem.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Thanks so much MM for getting back to me so soon. I'm always uptight after such a phone call.<hr /></blockquote>As you should be. After all, you are human. it is what you DO now that will make all the difference.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I wish I could be as optimistic as you seem to be about seeing something break soon. I just really think he may be happy with his life and sees no reason or way to come back. <hr /></blockquote>Look...I have NO crystal ball here. He COULD be happy. I mean, while the stats are astronomically against them working out, there are the 5% that do make it. Maybe him and the OW are part of that? There is no real way to know right now.

This is EXACTLY why you are in Plan B. He needs to find out if he is in that 5%. He needs to KNOW the reality of the situation. How things will be with her...and more importantly, how things will be with you and the kids. I think your butt chewing was a huge dose of reality and will go a long way towards knocking down any myths he might have about everyone getting a long like some big happy family. Just another dose of reality.

He takes that back into his relationship with the OW. Up to now, he could count on you helping him out so he could get his weekly or biweekly fix with the kids. Now, he has no such assurances. He now has to work at maintaining his position as Dad. but wait a minute...he was having so much fun in Fogland being single and living a life of no responsibility, right? Shugah...this reality you have shown him can only HURT their relationship! Maybe they will overcome that. Maybe he will ignore the children further. Maybe this will push him further away. Who knows?

But you have to go this route. As Coffeeman has told me many times, this is the route to save your marriage. It is also the route towards divorce and getting on with your life. While it is one road, you really have no idea where it will end up. That is up to your husband, in large part. But the fact you are walking down that road means you are one day closer to this being over with. And he is one day closer to coming out of the Fog. When I said "what caliber your husband is," I meant that once he is out of the influence of the Fog, and clearly sees reality, if he is a good man, and a man of any integrity, he will KNOW what to do. If not, then he will continue down the road he started. And you will have a new life, one without such a dishonorable man in it.

So, you see? You win either way. You either get back the husband you deserve. Or you get your life back, free to maybe find a man that WILL be that man that you deserve. Now that you are in Plan B, you are no longer under the siege of the affair. YOU are in control, and you showed it quite well to your husband on the phone. This is "war." You have sent the surrender terms to him. He has only two choices. He can do as it says, and you have promised him fair treatment. Or he can chose not to...in which then you will make the decision to "finish him off" and move on. The first way, you BOTH win (as well as your children!). The second...you win.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'll retreat back into PLAN B and try to remain there as much as possible. <hr /></blockquote>I HATE that word "retreat." You are in control here. You aren't retreating anywhere. He is the one on the ropes. He is the one that has to surrender. All you did is fire a warning shot, telling him that he either stays where he is at, or drops his weapons and gives up. Any other activity will be met with the full brunt of Shugah. so, your position is still very much where it was before. In the meantime, he just had some "rounds" go buzzing by his head. He ducked back in his foxhole, knowing you are serious. Like I said before, the problem is still his. He no longer has the ability to start an offensive against you. You have him outgunned, and with friends, family, MB, etc...you have him outgunned. (remember folks...this is all analogy...no violence is being contemplated here!). So, no retreat for you. You are standing your ground. It is he that has retreated for now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know you thought at times that your W had really traded in her life for good, but yet you kept to the Plan and she came back.<hr /></blockquote>She was TOTALLY convinced that what she was doing was right, and that she was happy. Such is what the addiction of the Fog will do. She was in the foxhole, and still thought she could win the war. It takes awhile for reality to seep in and them to understand that they really have no ability to win this now…only surrender offers the hope that life might get better.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I still find it hard to believe that the Fog has settled in so thickly and that WH cannot see beyond himself!! <hr /></blockquote>Of course you do! All of us BSs do. We are not under the influence. We have not been there. That is why it is so insightful to hear from the FWSs on here. Now that they have exited the Fog, they can tell you what it was like in there. Your husband is acting no differently than 99% of the WSs that I have heard about.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hope things are getting better for you & Mrs. MM, I know you had hit a bit of a bump in recovery.<hr /></blockquote>Well, thanks for the encouragement. I too am on the same road as you…just a few miles ahead. So, I can radio back to you and tell you what the road is like, and which pot holes to avoid. I must do the same with some one that is ahead of me, that has been through recovery and understands these nuances. My wife actually has been keeping track with me this week on how many days it has been since we blew up, or I pulled back. It has been 6 so far. The last couple of days have been great, although we have had a few discussions that really have helped get some more things into the open (I will post on my thread). But I wanted you to know that even though you aren't where I am at, encouragement and prayers go a long way. For all of us.

In His arms.

Well, I (very) respectfully disagree with Mortarman. I have many of the same issues with my H, and if I had done what Shugah did, he would just be thinking what a b*tch I am. He wouldn't be thinking about the "issues" at all.

What's helped me in my near-Plan B is giving up the idea that I'm going to "win" in any conversation right now, that I'm going to make any points.

Any issues I bring up are going to be seen as weird, and strange. Something that OW and H can discuss to make their R more real -- since opposing me, I think, is what gave them a sense of excitement from the beginning.

I have to be a complete sofa cushion, and there have been a lot of hurtful things going on. OW is going to be in the picture. I would resign yourself to that. H is going to need to do that to legitimize their relationship. In this case, my teens can drive -- so they visit H & OW for dinner.

Do they like it? I suspect not, because it seems to be happening more and more infrequently. (I say "I suspect" because I would never put pressure on them by asking.) I am putting my energy into making THIS home warm and loving -- a refuge for kids and stepkids, a place they want to be.

It appears I have been successful. They want to be here. H says it is "more appropriate" for his kids to be living with him. I didn't say, "Maybe they don't want to live with you and your latest OW. A home is not the place where your dad is shacking up. It's a place where kids feel loved and cared for and have some history."

He can figure that on his own, without my input. If I SAY that to him, it will be something to be argued with and rebutted. It something he will rationalize. But the problem is, my H is sublimating a lot of issues, and it will take a long time for him to confront them, if ever.

He has to argue with HIMSELF, not with me. And by offering no resistance, I hope I am furthering that process. I do think that's part of Plan B.

So yes, I am being a "doormat" in some ways. But more and more that household is being quarantined, and I am psychologically and physically less accessible to him. As we used to say in the Vietnam era, time to bring the war home. And the war is inside him.

Mortarman, you're free to 2X4 me, if you like!

A.M.M.

P.S. And I didn't bring up that what would have been "appropriate" would be not to have started an A!

[ August 11, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]

Another postscript: I do have the feeling H & OW are trying to provoke me, to justify what they are doing. There is a big, empty space if I don't react. Suddenly, they aren't the "calm, normal" ones, and I'm not the freaking b*tch they are blaming, and that H has consistently tried to portray me as. I won't play that game. Are you? (I ask sincerely, since your sitch may be different.)

Don't help at all with childcare. He has to see that HE has withdrawn from the kids, and stop blaming you. I would just invent excuses, rather than trying to get him to see how hard your life is. "Gee, I'd love to, but I have to go to work that afternoon, and pick up X from school, and meet with the utilities repairman..." Show, don't tell. That way he can maybe SEE what your life has become, without having to respond to you confronting him with it. That way he will have to confront himself, without defending himself to you.

A.M.M.,

No 2x4 here!!! I think we are actually closer to each other in our thinking than you might believe.

I do not believe that you should, or Shugah, or anyone else in this situation, berate your WS. I did it several times, and it only met disaster First off, it doesnt work...it makes things worse. Second, as you stated above, they wouldnt understand it anyway, while in the Fog. So, I agree with you.

What I was trying to say was there are things that you cannot compromise on. What are they? I guess they depend on the individual. Some will not let their WS come anywhere near their home. Some want only a third person to mediate between them. Almost all demand that the OP not be near their children. Whatever the conditions are, these are boundaries that have been set by the BS in order to protect them, and to protect their children.

Again, each BS is different. Some need high, reinforced walls. Some only need a chain link fence. But whatever the boundary, it MUST be respected. As Dr. Dobson writes in "Love Must Be Tough," one of the biggest things that causes marital strife, affairs, divorce, etc is a loss of respect for each other. What is demanded in order to fix the problem is that the spouse begins to show his/her spouse respect.

The first way this can be done is drawing boundaries and not giving an inch. The WS may not like them. It may make them VERY angry! But guess what? They cannot deny they are there. And they cannot deny that they must respect them. One of the first things my wife said to me when she decided to come home was that the first reason she entertained the idea was that I began to stand up to her. I asked her when that was. She said it was somewhere around mid-December (EXACTLY when I started my plan B). When I wouldn't back down from my boundaries, when I tenaciously tried to protect my children from them by demanding that the OM NEVER be near them, she began to learn that I was not spineless…that I was not a doormat. No one respects a doormat. I told my children that if the OM was ever around them, that they were to tell me immediately. My wife was crazy with anger! But inside her, she was beginning to become "crazy" with respect for me. And it is that respect that leads to reconciliation and healing.

So, I think we ultimately agree that it is not good to be unloading on our spouses. But especially in Plan B (in Plan A, there is some cause for being LIKE a doormat), there must be boundaries set up. Walls, if you will. And when we build walls, they MUST be protected…otherwise, they arent really boundaries. And the WS no longer respects those boundaries, nor the person who set them up.

I hope that clears things up!

In His arms.

A.M.M.,

Your post script was GREAT! I agree entirely.

The reason I feel that there is a time when you "launch" is that as long as they havent crossed your boundaries (whatever they are), then you can do the things that you are talking about. But should they cross those boundaries, then they should be met with all the force you can muster.

If WS wants to drive by the house and see how everyone is, fine. Just wave and watch him drive by. If your boundary is as long as he is with OW that he wont enter that house, then if he attempts to even set one foot in the door, he will be met with a stern rebuke, with telling him he must leave, or be arrested.

As long as the boundaries that the BS has set up havent been crossed, then what you are talking about is exactly what she could do. But, when they cross the lines that she has set in order for her to regain control of her life, then it must be met with "force." Otherwise, they wont respect one thing about you, nor your boundaries. And thus, the boundaries are meaningless.

In His arms.

[ August 11, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

I get it, and I appreciate the dialogue.

A.M.,
WH lives 2.5 hrs. away, hard to show him much, but he KNOWS what I do, and that I've been doing it for several years now since he's been working out of state. He's even admitted on several occasions that I've got the "hard" job. He just wants to forget that sometimes and sometimes I need to remind him. Whether it gets through or not is debatable. But I think it does.

I've just got to stick to those boundaries like MM says. I find that even when I'm setting and defending those boundaries I'm still a soft touch, but that's me I guess. I want to work at really being clear when I speak and act regarding this, sometimes I get emotional and I lose the message.

I'm sending out a package of Bills and mail today. Thinking about including a short note to reiterate what I was saying last night in case I was not clear. Or should I just leave it. Any thoughts?

Shugah,

Yes, send a letter. It should be the PBL. If you need to strengthen the part about your boundary of not having the OW near the kids, then do so. Add what you need to to reinforce that, then send the PBL again. Consistency is your friend here. It will help him to begin to respect you again. So, anytime something like this happens, send the PBL.

Remember, the PBl is a love letter. It speaks of your love, and trying to save it. In order to save it, you must now erect boundaries to him and OW. One of those boundaries is that you will have NC with him (except kid-related issues or finances) until OW is gone. That is a boundary. Another for you might say that in order to protect the children also, that you do not want the OW anywhere near them.

So, the PBl is a letter, reiterating your love, giving your husband a light in the fog. But it is also about setting boundaries in order to protect your love for him. And you cant be protecting that love if he is destroying your children by bringing the OW around. so, the boundaries must be defended.

Dont worry about being "soft" on your defense of those boundaries. It shows that you still care and still love him. But, he must always understand that should he break through a boundary, then he will meet with different Shugah...one he WILL respect, though he may not like at the time.

Keep up the good work. You are one day closer to where you should be!

In His arms.

When I said, "Show, don't tell," I didn't mean that it couldn't be done with words, though non-verbal stuff and actions are best. Just tell him, neutrally, the list of things that prevent you from jumping in to help HIM meet the kids, rather than telling him how hard your life is. Just give him the raw data, without emotion. He'll more likely get the picture if it's not in-yo'-face.

Mortarman, thanks for your post -- however, I could be wrong, I think H is going to try in whatever way to wriggle OW into life with the kids, and she will certainly try to prove what a great OW she is by being mom to the kids. This is odious, but part of the mechanics of the situation. It just seems like a set-up for fighting, though I could be wrong. You can draw a line in the sand that may prevent the most egregious violations, but I would expect violations.

AMM,

I agree with you. Really! As I posted on your thread, all responses to incursions across boundaries should be measured. You dont need a "backhoe" when a shovel will do.

But, defending a boundary has to have some penalty if it is broken. otherwise, it isnt a boundary. Should we expect incursions? Sure. But the more "pain" felt by the WS when they do cross our boundaries, the less likely they will do so in the future. The more consistent and measured we are in the application of those "penalties," the greater likelihood that the incursions will eventually stop altogether.

But let even the small incursions go across your boundaries means that they will ALWAYS make small incursions. If they make a small incursion, they should meet a small penalty. If they make a large incursion, then they should meet a full frontal assault. Of course, always in love and always measured. And calm, if possible.

The WS will always push, like a child, to find out where their boundaries are. And if you give them three feet, they will try to take four. If you allow no incursions, then they may try...but over time, they will realize they have no incursion space. And they will begin to respect you and your boundaries.

And this is good whether you get back together OR divorce.

In His arms.

[ August 11, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

Shugah -

So sorry your S met OW! What a shock for the poor kid. Did he talk to you about it afterwards? How's he doing?

My D(23) met OW at a family gathering late June. She was not told OW would be there. She acted cordially at the party, then cried all the way home. She called her brother (25) to tell him what happened. We all felt that WH had crossed the line. S contacted his father and told him to never disrespect our family like that again. It may be one of the reasons WH has contacted me, he sees that his plan of making a happy family complete with his kids and OW isn't going to work.

I think by calling your WH you did what my S did, let WH know that his fantasy is doomed. It takes a toll on your nerves, though. How are you today? You will feel better if you return to your strong Plan B, reinforcing that this isn't going to be easy.

Lablady

Can't get use to the name LOL

Justy wanted to stop in as I am following your thread since the beging ,, I want to say you are doing great , MM is right you are traveling down the path all par for the course ..
I don't have much to give ya as I see the best are in place here ..

I wanted to say I think it sucks that S had to see OW ,, I know first hand having small children its tough .. And I want to comment to what you said, about WH not talking to your D on the phone .

My D was that age while FWH was out of the house , he seemed to pay attention to my S more this pissed me off alot .. But I started to notice it was cause my D seemed to have no interst in him the way she did when he was home ,, so this hurt him deeply ,, so he choose to distants himself alittle more from her then S ..
Thinking she was to young and DIDN"T understand .. that was mistake cause when it came down to it she spoke her mind ,, WH may cut his nose to spight his face ...

Also on topic of them being around OW ,, well I am only saying what I did down the line in PLAN B ,NOT THAT IT WILL BE ANYONES CHOOSE ,, but I was sick of him being on fence ,, so when I spoke to OW and she told me that I am a B!TCH because I won't let FWH GET ON WITH HIS LIFE by them meeting ......I simpley informed BOTH of them that she could very well meet my children I didn't mind at all ..... As soon as FWH would start Div. papers and sit down with all 3 of us (me, ow,& FWH ) and tell kids we are D'ing and it is because daddy is in love with OW ..

WELL that caused OW to LB all over cause FWH would never tell kids we where D'ing cause he never intended to LOL

SO now she was LB and he was running out of lies cause he told her I was the B!ITCH and wouldn't give him a D .. lol

MY point is sometimes when you give them kindness there A starts to end faster cause OW starts to see your not a B!TCH and starts to see all the lies WS is telling and they have nothing but a hidden secret not a relationship ..

I took a gamble but was ready for D just to stop the rollercoaster . Also I KNEW that man and it wasn't him (((FOG)))
he would show light once in a while so I knew when to push ..

JMVHO ,,, TRY as hard as possiable not to yell even when it comes to kids ,, I feel this gives them to much to talk about ,, to much for OW to use giving him the poor baby speech ,your W what B!tch .. GET my point

Ok got to go H home early sneaking up on me I love it !!!!!!!!!!

Hi guys & gals,
Thanks so much for everyones support and comments today. I really needed it!
3is- yeah the name is somethin huh? I couldn't think of anything, H used to call me sug, as in short for sugar, and so, Shugah was born. No I'm not southern belle!
I'm feeling better. In control for the most part. S seems ok despite seeing OW for the first time, it was only a 2 minute encounter I'm told and not even an introduction. I need to discuss this with him, but not sure how to persue it, as I've always felt that I didn't want to play the good guy vs. bad guy game with the kids. However, the more I think about it I feel the following. IF WH were doing drugs in front of my kids, I would not hesitate to protect them and explain to them the danger of his choices and the lack of judement that is a result of doing that drug, which is why he is doing it in front of them. His addiction for the drug overpowers his senses and doesn't allow him to see clearly how it is hurting the ones he loves the most.
It is the same with his addiction to OW, his choices are hurting those he loves. He just can't see how he is doing that nor does he know how to stop it. All we can do is hope and pray that he will.
In the meantime, we still love WH and have to try to understand what is happening and do the best we can to not let it affect our lives.
I just want to keep the communication open, so that they don't turn it in on themselves.

Shugah-

I really like the explanation of WH's behavior you've come up with for your kids. It's kind, because you've likened it to a sickness or addiction, yet firm, because you have included that you have to try and keep it from affecting your lives. It's a lot like Plan B. How about also telling them that you are waiting for WH to come back to his family and that it's what you really want, if you haven't already. My kids have told me to leave their father and get on with my life, but I know they'd love to have their family back if possible.

Communication is so important with kids, especially teenagers. They're having a difficult time just being that age, and now this A thing has come into their lives. You are their rock now, Shugah, as hard as it is to go it alone. You are the one that will show them how to act in tough circumstances. Sometimes it helps me do the right thing when I remember that I am setting an example for my kids. An A is not acceptable. Period. You are letting your kids know that you don't approve of WH's actions, even while you still love him. How does it go - love the sinner, hate the sin? I'm hoping that my kids will not repeat the mistakes their father has made. My WH's father cheated on his mother for 20 years and everyone still honored him. I wonder if WH expected the same treatment his father got. Surprise!

Well, just letting you know I'm here tonight. Hang in there!

Lablady

Haven't posted in a week but I've done lots of lurking.
Not much here, WH was up yesterday to see the kids. He drove 2.5 hrs for a 3.5 hr visit, go figure. How can this be enough for him? The few minutes I was in his presence he was friendly, asked for an old tool belt in the basement, commented about what they did on their outing. He never mentioned the letter I sent last week with copy of PBL to restate boundaries concerning the kids around OW.
WH & kids went out for pizza, S told me later that WH asked what kind Mom liked cuz there would be plenty of leftovers so we should get something she likes?? They brought home a whole extra pizza.
I miss him still so much, and I wonder if he'll ever miss us enough to want to come back and be a famly again. Every day, week, month that goes by, I can't help feel that he is that much further away from us. Every day I just wonder, should I just go ahead and file for D? Every day, I think, no, I'll hold out just a little longer. IT's been 8 mos. since D-Day.
I want to have faith in the love that I KNOW he had for me for so long. How can he just forget and not feel that anymore. Even after all he's done and said I can't forget and not feel my love for him.
It's beautiful out today, finally the rain has ended, just in time for my vacation! Got up early last 2 mornings with the kids to see the Hot Air Balloons lift off at 6am. 4 yr. old so excited, couldn't help think, Dad should be here with us, to see how happy she is. IT was fun.

Shugah,

Don't give up. I have been thinking and wondering about you. It's almost 8 months since my D-Day, too. What a crazy time!!!

Hang in there!!!!

I screwed up big time tonight.
I just don't have the patience for this, and I lose sight of the big picture.
WH called to make plans for visiting the kids this weekend.
After we made those arrangements I chatted a bit more, well alot more than I should have.
I said that we just got back from a Parent/Athlete meeting at the High School. They had a very excellent motivational speaker who emphasized the need for our kids to have role models with integrity, character and commitment.
WH said, "well that rules me out!"
I told him that we all missed him and that I love him. He said he knows, and that he misses "the kids" too, and that he wants to see them more, but that I won't let him by not letting him come into the house and spend time with them or take them down to his city. I said that's not possible, it's not in their best interest to have them around OW, or to confuse them by having him in our home. I said I'm sorry that I can't help make it easier for him to see his kids.
He said, well short of me coming home, what do you want me to do. I said, that whether he sees them 2 or 4 days a month, it will still leave a whole in their hearts when he drives away, they will still be missing something when he is not here for them on a daily basis.
I got into the whole thing about how I don't get to start over without responsibilities the way he does, or how he loved me once and that he was committed to his family. He said, he's been gone a long time now, I answered that people are separated all the time and get back together.
Bottom line, he said he's in love with another woman and we're just going to have to deal with it.
I didn't get upset, I remained calm, but I knew the whole time that I was screwing up bigtime.
Oh well, I really have had little hope lately anyways, so probably no big damage done. It was going nowhere anyways.

I'm calling it quits! I called WH told him I'll file by the end of the week. He said to wait till the bankruptcy process is over. I said, that shouldn't make any difference.
Then I told him, I'll be down in a few weeks to start looking for an apt. in his area! Although the kids will freak out to have to move, I figure they'll get over it. (WH uses that as his motto.) So they need counseling now anyways, they can just deal with this too.
I think it makes perfect sense. The kids can see their Dad more often(unfortunately OW too, but let's face it, it's sooner or later right?)
I'm feeling resentful because I'm left being the responsible one, this will give me a major life change opportunity! From country girl, to city life, start living it up a little too! Life's too friggin short to sit around here, in a home and life that is full of memories hoping for something that isn't going to happen.
I'm actually wide awake, excited about the possibilities. Hey, like WH says, D happens all the time, well people move all the time too. It can't be that much worse for the kids than what is already happening to them. And they'll be closer to Dad.
Of course, I'll have to get rid of the pets, put the house on the market(after bankruptcy), start checking out the schools. I won't limit my search to WH's city, but will check out the surrounding towns as well. Although it would be much more convenient for everyone if we are close by!
I won't tell the kids right off, too much excitement with school just starting and all. I'll do my homework first then inform them of my decision. And I'm not going to feel guilty about it. No one else seems to feel guilty about making decisions that affect everyone elses lives without ever asking for their input.
Instead of me sitting here trying to adjust my life to being without WH, now he and OW can figure about adjusting to life with me and the kids next door!!
That'll put a little twist on their fantasy!
But really I don't even care about that anymore, I looked at photos tonight, and usually I get all emotional, this time it was like, who is this Man? I don't even like who he is anymore. And let's face it, the H I knew is never coming back.
I'll be an hour and a half closer to my family too. Although I'll have to mend some bridges in that direction first.
So, that's that. Tomorrow mornning I'll wake up and think, what am I crazy? Maybe, Maybe not, it's hard to tell anymore. Maybe crazy is really thinking that WH would actually change his mind, realize how much he loved and missed us and come back! Now that's crazy!

BUmp

Shugah,

PLAN B worked for you! Be careful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> for what you hope for. You are at exactly at the place that I was when decided he wanted to try to come back.

I like your PLAN, though. Whatever it's called,A B C or D, it sounds good for you.

Luv Ya. Hang in there.

Ok, so I tried selfish on for the day to see how it fit.
It doesn't feel as good as I wanted it too.
I know that I would be making this move for all the wrong reasons and it would wreak havoc on the kids world (more so than already!) And I just couldn't do that to them.
Someone has to be the responsible, selfless, self-sacrificing parent and I guess I've been nominated.
I need to accept my lot in life and make the best of it.

Actually I liked the idea of you moving the kids closer to their Dad. It seemed like a responsible thing to do. Plus, will that make you happy? That's what's important. The happier you are, the happier they will be. That's what I have learned about my sons lately.

Actually, it wouldn't be good for the kids, except the youngest maybe.
16 yr.old is a junior this year, into sports, etc., he would fight it tooth and nail.
And 12 yr.old, well he once said not too long ago, that if we sold the house, he would live in a cardboard box in the yard. He doesn't like change, and loves where we are. He's an outdoors type too, would not adjust to city life, easily.
This move would be 2.5 hrs away. I'd like to think that the change would be good for me, but would it really? Away from my support network.
Would WH really be any more responsible or helpful? Probably not. That's the sad truth.
After 2 weeks of not seeing his kids, does he miss them enough to get up at the crack of dawn to drive here and spend a whole day? No. He gets here at noon or later, spends 3 hrs.
But yet he wants me to feel badly about not making it easy for him.
Truth is, I'd move heaven and earth if I thought it would help my kids. WH will not! And I would not be making this move for the right reasons. I would be doing it thinking I could make WH & OW miserable, but it would just hurt the kids.
I'm just at a bad point right now, frustrated, not seeing much hope, and feeling sorry for myself, wanting to be able to do something that just benefits me, not having to worry about anyone else....that's just not possible. I'd probably be miserable in the city.
Maybe not.
I just can't be making a decision like this when I am so emotionaly charged.
Although last night it did feel good to think about making such a move...if I didn't think about the kids....Today I feel differently?

Just as long as you do what's best for you and your kids right now.

I sure know how it is with the mood swings and the roller coaster rides from A to Z with our thoughts and emotions.

Like I've been saying, this is awful for us!!!

it wouldn't be good for the kids
Why wouldn't it be good for them?

Just because they are in sports and "have a life" does not mean moving would be bad for them.
Having even a "sort of" relationship with their father is going to be much more of an influence on them than having to move & get new friends and sports.

Something to think about...

[ August 27, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Come on Chris!
You don't think that a 16 yr. old wouldn't be resentful that he has to give up his world(remember the importance of a 16 yr.old world)to be closer to a Dad that "chose" to be 2.5 hrs. away? He already thinks his dad is a loser for what he's done. And I'm supposed to be able to convince him that it will be great to live closer to Mr. Loser. (HIs deduction, not mine!, he knows I love WH and has told me to just Divorce his @ss!)
You think that a shy 12 yr.old would enjoy starting all over, on the off chance that he'd get a Dad that shows even a little interest?
At what point do these kids have to stop making the sacrifices and enduring the pain and putting in the hard work, to make it easier for Dad?
Ok, so if you were trying to play devil's advocate to make me realize the error of my 24 hr. decision, you've succeeded. If you weren't, then I'd have to say, you don't actually understand the pain that these kids and myself are going through.
We have been the ones busy investing and building a life that we though WH was longing to get back too, but now that he has apparantly been building his elsewhere, we are supposed to make the sacrifice to follow? At what risk? Have you ever moved as a child? Have you ever moved a child, especially one already on emotional overload? Already their lives have been turned upside down and you expect to further disrupt their lives.
What about their sense of security, stability, in a world that offers little of both. This is the only time in their lives that they should be able to enjoy that. Their lives should be simple not complicated.
Ok, I get it, I've convinced myself! I wanted to know what it felt like to be completely self-absorbed, only thinking about how a decision affects me and not wanting to have to care about anyone elses feelings. It's just not possible for me to do! And that is the hardest part for me, I can't understand how it is possible for WH!
How do you completely misjudge someone for 20 yrs?

Chris knows "the pain".

Making big life changing decisions while in severe emotional pain ... may not be wise.

Any harm in moving ahead more slowly and with some non-emotional planning?

Pep

Shugah - let me be up front. I'm a WH.

I've been on this site while struggling with this chaos I've created in my life. I've been here arguing my righteousness to no avail to bunch of people who I thank now for not quitting on me.

This is my story, though abbreviated, of what my actions have wrought. Some here may agree or disagree with some of my thought processes here. But it’s where I am and I thought maybe your H may benefit from reading my story. The trick is getting him to read it.

_______________

I've been jerked back into reality by something rather unpleasant and for the first time I see the fog for what it is. This will be a revelation to some who have been following my insanity here on MB.

Your H is selfish beyond any ability to measure. And what your thread suggests I think is true in deeper ways than you may even know.

I don't know your H, but I know me.

Over the years in my marriage I have been trying to tell myself that things are falling apart. And things were, for any number of reasons, all of which are valid in their own right. But that’s another story. My point is... I never thought of myself as a selfish person. I believed that I was the one doing all the work to try to make our relationship work... I felt like she didn't care. What happened to me is that over time... I slowly quit trying. the truth as I'm seeing it now after many hours of introspective though is that what I've been doing all these years was NOT trying to save my marriage but rather LEARNING how to be OK with being selfish.

Is my wife responsible to some extent, sure? It takes 2, no matter what anyone says, to build OR destroy a marriage. It's all in your capacity toward selflessness. Yes that is the right word: selflessness.

My infidelity was actually quite easy to justify by the time I decided to cross the line. The Fog is truly a powerful powerful thing.

Your H is caught up in a device that has no doors, no seams, no means to breath and is impervious to the sharp sword of logic. The only thing he can see is what is inside the device. Himself. The reality, from my perspective is that he doesn’t even really see the OW. He just KNOWS how he feels. And it feels good. For the WS, that makes the inherent selfishness moot.

For me, the repercussions of my selfishness were easily brushed off with surface level solutions. I failed however to truly scrutinize the effects my actions were having on my young son and nothing my wife could say would make me believe it. Even talking to my 5 year old son (only child) about daddy being gone and asking how he was about that failed to bring anything to the perceivable surface.

The folks here... recently echoed what my counselor told me the other day... they said I needed to spend more time with myself. Just myself... Thinking... looking inwardly. And you know what Shugah? One person I can't escape or lose sight of within the deadly fog is me. I had already been on a very long drive and during that time alone, the thoughts I struggled with were monumental. I went to the counselor and she said to 'meditate... look inside of you..' I laughed at her and told her that sounded like NewAge tripe. And she didn't say a word; she was just quiet. Before I knew it, right there in her office, I was looking inside. At first I smiled at memories with the OW. Then, slowly, and much to my horror, the sheer scope and breadth of the destruction and the malignant carelessness with which I handled those I love came to the fore. It was so overwhelming that I began to sob and I couldn't stop.

The only way that I can fathom your husband escaping this, in my own experience, is to look within. I know... I KNOW... he sees what he is doing to you and your children... I know he knows it's wrong... deep down, beneath the slow sweet poison of the A that fogs the mind with such thrilling sensuality and fulfillment, he knows.

Time alone.. forced to be alone in a car for hours, without her... gave me salient and painful glimpses of my depravity. Even that alone wasn't enough to turn me though... I'm a stubborn man. Given time, I would have come out... because those glimpses acted as a slow antidote... a caustic solvent that began to corrode the device that enslaved my mind.

It took a catastrophe in my life to wake me up. At this point in this disaster of my own life, I’m not sure how I will ever fully recover. I don’t need to go into details of this terrible thing.. That’s just drama. I’ve had enough drama and I have plenty more coming.

It wasn't worth it Shugah. All I want to do now is be able to sit on my back patio with friends and smile and laugh like I used to with a genuine, deep laugh that was food for my soul. Now I can laugh… I can even fake the deep hearty laugh. But my soul aches and I’m so disgusted with myself that even while I laugh, my mind is screaming calling me terrible things all of which are accurate descriptions of what I have become through this wretched thing I’ve done.

My OW shared this quote with me in the beginning of this tragedy. I was further gone than she was by then. She quoted the philosopher in what I know now was an attempt to get me to back away from a thing she knew she couldn’t resist. Likely her own means of justification. Who knows?

"The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the full light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you choose, what you think, and what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny...it is the light that guides your way."
-- Heraclitus

If only I’d have been able to apply the powerful simplicity of these words. The OW was not my destiny… my integrity was… now… I’m very much afraid that my soul may never bear the full light of day.

So I hope, for your H’s sake, it doesn't take a catastrophe in his life to bring him home again. I will pray for that… and Shugah… I’m not the prayin’ type. But while I beg for my own forgiveness, I’ll drop a line for you. OK?

-TMD

TMD,

Well, I was going to add a post, but I am overwhelmed by yours. I'm a BS, and I can only hope my WH soon experiences the clarity you have experienced and expressed.

WOW!
Maybe when I catch my breath, I can post to Shugah later.

ISG

TMD

Thumbs up.

Good work.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Mim,IS,Chris,Pep, thanks for stopping by on what has been a very emotional, backsliding kindof day. Teary at the drop of a hat kind of day, you know the type. I've been "learnin" here since Feb. and sometimes I feel as if I have really not learned a thing. I even called WH again today, not too bad a call, but I cried, knowing that Plan B is what is best for me and gives us the best chance. And of course nothing new, but I "hear" things. He started to say something like,"a lot of changes would have to occur if I were to come..." and then he stopped himself. So has he thought about it lately?
He asked about the kids first day of school,but didn't ask to speak to them. Asked if D is excited about tomorrow being her 1st day of preschool, but didn't ask to speak to her. He asked if he could buy her a bunny, something she has wanted for a long time. I said, no, I'd really like to, but NO, I have too many things to take care of already, please, no more. Of course he just says, "well think about it", he's not the one overwhelmed. He does acknowledge that any communication with him is hard on me, he can tell, it's obvious, and he tried to shorten the call with, "you are just going to be upset"

TMD!!!!
Thankyou so much for reaching out to me, to WH. I spend so much time wondering if WH knows the pain he is causing, truly knows. Thank you for giving me a glimpse into the world of WH. If what you say is true for him as well, then maybe there is hope. It is when I begin to believe that he really, really doesn't care, that I lose hope, in him, in me, in love... I don't know that he'll ever get to read it, and if he'd hear your message, but I so wish he would "before it's too late". Don't be so quick to write off your soul. I only hope that some WS somewhere hears your message, recognizes themselves in your pain and makes that first step back home.
Thank you so much. I will read this again and again, and try to believe that my WH is feeling even a little of what you did....and maybe?
Tonight I will sleep, I need it, and tomorrow will be a better day.

Our youngest son who is 11 says he wants to kill himself from time to time too. WS is living with his gf I hate to hear him say that and my h could care less.

I was not saying that you should simply drop everything and move.

Just that you need to consider everything before making a firm decision.

You don't think that a 16 yr. old wouldn't be resentful that he has to give up his world
A 16 year old is going to be resentful of ANYTHING you do, good or bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

But have you heard the anti-drug commercials? One of them goes;
Flash between a bunch of older teens. They say something like, "Mom, Dad, I really hated you for always wanting to know where I was, having to call in all the time, wnating to know who I wa with."
"Thanks."

As a parent, you aren't there to make it easy for them or to shield them from all the little hurts of the world.

You are there to show them how to deal with all the crap that gets dished up on their plates. And to celebate when they got good stuff dished up.

Ok, so if you were trying to play devil's advocate to make me realize the error of my 24 hr. decision, you've succeeded.
I didn't say it was an error, just something you need to consider & look at in a different light.

If you weren't, then I'd have to say, you don't actually understand the pain that these kids and myself are going through.
Been there, done that, got the book, (and got it autographed) the t-shirt, DVD-special edition, etc... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

None of this is easy and sometimes tough decision need to be made of which none of the choices is "good".

Yesterday, the proverbial **** hit the fan. It was not nice, or pleasant and it was in front of youngest D & S. WH came up for his previously agreed upon visit. As usual, he got here around 1pm, so much for missing your kids after 2 weeks that you can't get up early am to come up.
Anyways, he gets here, spent a few minutes sitting on the step with D, she was holding a giant frog.
He then started to go into the house. He knows I don't want him in here anymore and he has abided by my wishes up till today. But he was angry over something I did( I will get to that) and he would not leave the house. The kids were outside, he sat in the recliner and turned on the TV and said he was going to watch the ball game with S. He said he pays the mortgage so this is his home and he's not leaving. So I went over to unplug the TV and he jumped out of the chair and kicked me hard in the behind. (I have a sore back right now, kind of a whiplash effect).
I called the police, and WH went outside, so I told the police that if he left with the kids as planned and nothing else occurred I would not need them to come. WH came back in the house, was screaming in my face, he spits when he is that angry and I said stop spitting in my face and then he purposely SPIT in my face!!! I then had enough and called the cops.
Three cruisers came, local police, sheriff and state police. They took our statements and decided they didn't have enough to press charges (which was ok this time) so they gave a trespassing type order that would make him leave for today at least. At first they were going to let him still take D & S for his outing visit, and I was ok with that, they were expecting him(now traumatized), but WH became so mouthy threatening to take them back to his city and meet girlfriend and kids, asking D, "Do you want to come to Daddy's and see OW and the girls?" The state trooper especially was outraged, told WH he was being disprespectful to me & the kids by rubbing my face in it, not to mention the spitting which really pissed this guy off, and that he wasn't thinking of his kids. WH was bragging to the cops, how he pays all the bills and I won't even let him in his own home!! They got the straight story from me, including the fact that we collect food stamps and that all the bills are NOT payed, & bankruptcy. THey had his number all right.
I was pretty calm considering, I stayed away from him, and let them talk to him. I tried to explain to the kids what was happening and why.
The cops decided that WH was too wound up & needed to leave and skip the visit today. S then said to me, that's fine by me, because I didn't want to go with him now(but he would have). The state trooper, talked for a very long time to S and seemed genuinely concerned about him. They advised me to get a protection order on tuesday.
Not sure how I will proceed, but will definately file for Divorce, as I need to get some things in place. WH had called me friday, said the bank wouldn't take his debit card to pay the mortgage, and if it didn't get paid that day it would be more than 2 mos. late and they would send out a demand letter. So could I come up with $650 to go pay it after work? I told him, I didn't know, but I would try, and that it would be hectic as I also had a Dr.'s apppt. for D. I was able to use my paycheck, and borrowed some to pay it, WH said he would bring up the $$ when he came Sun. Later, after I had paid, he called and said the bank called him back, it was a mistake, that they could take his debit card. I commented how I almost missed D's Dr. visit. Not once, in those two conversations did he ask why she was going to the Doctor!! (She got three shots and cried all the way home.)
So WH, would not leave the money for me when he left. So basically I am screwed, I don't get paid for 2 more weeks, that was everything I had, I hadn't paid daycare yet or anything, and I owe the money I borrowed.
WH said to D when he was leaving, I"'m leaving and I'm never coming back, mommy doesn't want me here anymore!!!!!", I said WH dont' say that like that to her, she'll think she is never going to see you again.
So now to the part that pissed him off to begin with. As you know, I have been very frustrated with all I have to do, never getting a break, etc. Sat. night, I decide I needed to get out, and that damit,I was going to drive down to his city for a good time in his hangout(dive) and see what all the excitement was about.
I know, get out the 2x4's big time! All the while I was driving down, I was thinking, I shouldn't be doing this, but I couldn't stop myself. (Sort of like the start of an A?, choices).
I've actually been thinking about it for awhile, not caring whether he was there or not, just wanting to rub elbows with the people he knows, look good and smile and have fun, and have them put a face to my name, the "wife" that has no identity to them. They only know Bill and OW. I was feeling very confident about how I was looking, felt good when I walked in the bar(though my heart was pounding and I had all I could do to appear confident), but I did it, and she was the first one I saw when I walked in. She looked like a deer caught in the headlights. So I said, hi, WH must be here?, and I looked around to the pool table, and another deer caught in the headlights from him. I said Hi, big smile, and sat down at the bar and orderd a beer. He came over, what are you doing here? and I said, I need to get out once in a while too and I though I'd check out the neighborhood in case I decided to move here. Apparantly I had sat down next to OW's sister, because WH said this is OW's sister. I said hi, I'm Shugah, WH's WIFE.
I also wanted to get a good look at OW, and I am so glad that I did, she is so Skankie! Beyond description. WH came over twice and said well, we're leaving, like he was looking for my permission, I said, go, I didn't come here to see you anyways. They left, later I found out that they had just got there when I arrived. I ended up having a GREAT time, stayed till 12:30 and drove home. I played pool, teamed with a couple of different guys who were teaching me the game, one was an old guy that WH plays on a team with in a league on wed. nights ( so how many nights a week are you hangin out in bars, WH?), he was very nice to me, told me his whole life story and how his 2 wives walked out him, so he was very sympathetic. Also, with the cutest young Irish Kid, whose brogue was so thick I could hardly understand him half the time, oh if only I was 20 yrs. younger! And then a girl who works there who couldn' t wait to tell me where else I could find WH hanging out, I think she thought I was going to follow them or something. She said she thinks it's awful what WH did to me.(I had met her before).
I felt good, I smiled the whole ride home, because something had finally clicked for me! He was giving everything up for a skank girl, skank bars, skank city(really!), and even though I 've been hearing the words for months now, it FINALLY clicked! It is NOT about me or even about her, it's about WH and how he feels about himself!! I can see that now, all of this is so not him, but he feels so badly about himself and his life that he is settling for it, because he doesn't know how to fix it. And now he is pissed because I walked in on his secret world and saw him in all his glory (he definately looked stoned), he couldn't have skulked out of there any faster. And I think he expected I would leave after they did, but that wasn't even why I was there. His world now knows me as a person now, saw me have a good time, they talked to me, liked me and for some strange reason, it was all I needed to turn a big corner. I drove home that night and got in at 3a.m.
All morning I was feeling sooo good, until he showed up and was obviously angry about my road trip. I'm not sure what will happen after this. But WH is definately settling for crap, he has absolutely no clue what his children want or need, or who they are. He can get pissed at me all he wants, but anything I have done, and yes, I know what my part in this is, has been done away from my kids. And now he will withold the $$, which will only punish the kids.
Plan B is a good thing, unfortunately I am not a good player. My marriage is over, I know it, and now I will accept it. Maybe had I counseled with S.H., it would have helped, I don't know..
I can't help but think, my god, how did it all get to this point? It's like a bad dream, interactive of course.
Anyways, I'm ok this morning, the financial piece is beginning to get to me, for a long time, I've put that part out of my head for the most part, realizing as long as I didn't piss WH off, he would do the right thing, but now I need to take the next step.

Shugah -

Reading your post, part of it made me cry, and part of it made me stand up and cheer for you.

I'm so sorry that your kids had to witness the scene with WH and the police. It must have had a significant impact on them. I'm sure you did your best to explain what happened, but is there a relative or friend they can confide in and talk to? How are they doing today? How are you doing?

While the incident with the police made me cry, your striding into WH's world made me stand up and cheer! Shugah, you have a lot of courage! (I'm a conflict avoider, it would be very difficult for me to do what you did.) You "claimed your space" and showed WH and OW how strong you are. I'm glad your actions brought you a sense of peace, and some understanding of the world WH lives in.

Of course it made him angry that you "saw" him, he doesn't like who he is and what he's doing, and now YOU know, too. Yes, it IS about him, not you, not the M, just him and his problems. I'm not a veteran MB'er, so I don't know what the next step in the WS script will be. I would advise you to slow down for awhile, though, if you can. The past few days have been filled with intense emotions for you, and you will be able to make better decisions coming from a place of logic.

Wishing you a peaceful, calm day.

Lablady

[ September 01, 2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: lablady ]

I certainly feel for you.

I don't know what to advice for you to do either just like Lab Lady.

I will say from my own experience to slow down and to not make any major decisions.

I had a physical fight with my WS when I entered his world, when he was deep in the fog in March/April.

Now, I don't even think that he remembers it happening.

It's your choice of course about what you do but ,as always,

HANG IN THERE!!!!

I'm with you, Shugah, I wouldn't move. At least not now. Don't make any major decisions while you're still in crisis. A friend told me that, and it's among the best pieces of advice I received.

Maybe I'm overly big on animals, but I think pets have a steadying effect on kids. Losing pets would be a big deal for me, and for kids as well.

The reason your decision felt so good is that it's hard to play defense all the time, and that seems to be the role of the BS. Just to "take charge" feels good -- but that doesn't mean it's wise. That's why everyone keeps urging patience. After all, WH "felt good" in the affair, and look at the results of that.

Preemptive strikes -- going to WH's bar, moving house, etc. -- tend to irritate the situation, although they relieve some of the pressure of our enforced passivity.

Shugah,

Wow, your story is definitely one for the books. The way you were able to move forward despite what was thrown in front of your family is well.....amazing.

As a child that 'moved' around a lot (my parents were constantly moving to help others....at least 16 times during my childhood), I can say that children are resillient. I hated moving but adapted every time. Never finished through 1 school (4 elementary schools, 3 Jr High/intermediate schools and 2 high schools). So while they will make the most noise, they can also adjust quicker. Just a thought.

You are 1 brave lady. My H read your recent post also. So know that your experience is helping others.

Also, I want to let you know that moving forward takes effort......much of what you have posted shows that. Keep up the good work. Be safe and happy.

take care,
L.

THanks for understanding you guys!
I expect more 2x4's before this is over! I'm anticipating a response from Chris, it's ok Chris!
I know my part in triggering this drama. Although I still feel better having gone down there and standing my ground.
I understand that WH & OW want to live their lives trying to forget the damaged lives left behind, and by my invading their "territory" makes it real for them. According to WH, OW"s lawyer has sent me a letter, "warning me not send letters or call OW" or a restraining order will be filed. Haven't recieved that letter?
Poor OW, she helps to destroy my family's lives yet she doesn't want to be the "victim" of anything uncomfortable or painful. What a double standard, huh? I think she is forgetting who the victims are here. The same double standard applied when I encrouched on her territory, she can sleep with MY H, but I can't even visit her Bar!
Me & the kids are doing OK today, just OK. S was pretty uptight all morning, we talked, I tried to explain what happened and why, and that even if he was feeling angry with me, that it was ok, but that I had do what I had to to protect myself.
He said he "needed" a chocolate cake, his favorite is my homemade, so we just did that. I'm in a baking mood, nervous energy! I anticipate some card games & scrabble in my immediate future!!
Thanks again guys, if it wasn't for the support here, even when I do stupid and crazy things, I'd have lost what's left of my mind long ago!!

No 2x4 from me.....just a {{{{{cyber hug}}}}}

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Enjoy the cake and time with your children. There is where the real happiness lies.

By the way, does the OW own the bar? I would be very tempted to share that piece with the bar staff/owner. I mean really scaring away nice customers like yourself?!?!?!? LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Hey, who scared who away!! She doesn't scare me!
Thanks Orchid.
I'll let things settle for now, but they may not have seen the last of me! I have thought about doing this for so long, fantasized, that I had to get it done! I should have found out where the next league game is, my appearance certainly wouldn't be good for their concentration. Seriously though, I probably won't be making any more visits. Apart from the reasons for my being there, it was actually a fun time.
I still can't believe it, ME, I too was always a conflict avoider. Oh, I always talked big, "I'm gonna tell so & so just what I think, and I'm gonna do this or that & show them", but when it came down to it, I never did. Even with WH.
My friend has left WH a message to do the right thing, and despite his being angry with me, he needs to send me that $$. I have nothing for 2 more weeks. S needs cleats for soccer and D wants to play soccer, she was excited about her first organized activity, but I have no regis. fee now. Will let you all know how it plays out.

I was granted a protection against abuse order this morning.
In the meantime, "friend" had recieved a call from WH this morning. He was calm at first, as usual, and then within seconds, was screaming and swearing. He said, that he will not give me the F##king money or anything else, that he is all done, that he will take the f##king kids with him for a visit, and he will file a harrassment order against me. "Friend" said, let me get this right you are referring to your children as the f##king kids and he screamed yeah, the f##king kids! "Friend" tried to reason with him but he just kept yelling "shut the f##k up". So she ended the call.
What has happened to this man? He is out of control with anger, He was never like this before the A!!
I am afraid now that his is so out of control, he will not help support us, he is unpredictable.
I am filing the paperwork this afternoon to get the D rolling. I need things in place to protect me and the kids financially before we lose everything.
It is a sad day. It has gone too far.

Your right, it is out of control, or should I say your H is out of control! He is angry and wants to hurt you. It's a mechanism that WS do to reflect any guilt from themselves. The anger comes out at the BS! Just don't contact him for anything. Don't play his game. Just do what you have to do to protect you and your kids. And file for child support ASAP! Keep records of everything, including the incident that happened with the police (though it is already on file). Stay strong and be the SANE ONE IN ALL OF THIS. No more going to where you know he hangs out at. Discourage your friends from calling him on your behalf, it is useless at this point and will only upset you more to hear his responses to them. If he calls let the kids answer or let it go into vm. NO CONTACT while he is out of control!

Vehicle that 16 yr.old S has been driving was repossessed during the night.
Not unexpected of course, however, if WH had signed the Bankruptcy petition by now, repossession would have been delayed for the approx. 3 mos bankruptcy process. WH can't even get a Bankruptcy right!!
S knew that and was trying to save enough $$ to buy his own car. Thought he had 3 more months.Also, won't be able to go to a concert next week that he's had tix for for months.
S is angry with WH for leaving us all in this horrible financial predicament! Now I'm back to adding one more rider to my Taxi service!
S's golf clubs and new jeans were in the vehicle (despite my warnings) but he located the car in the back lot at a Dealer's and retrieved his stuff!!
Oh well, when does it all end?!!

Oh man. So sorry Shugah. Ugggh.

-TMD

Ok I do not want you to get any ideas about what BALLS to USE while GOING GOLFING WITH YOUR SONS CLUBS !!!!!!!!!
SORRY had a need to try and make you smile .

THIS sucks , sorry you dealing with all this . GOT to say I agree , I would shut him down , I mean cut him off completely .

I would just file for child support court ordered . You can do that even before any D papers are done .

Praying for ya !!!!!!!!!

Just pasting from another thread to catch up my own, so this may sound familiar to you ISGirl!:

It's been an interesting week here, with the Protection order, repossesion of the car, etc.
Last night I had the whole Football team here after practice for a potluck!! Yeah I'm crazy, but it went well, they stayed outside, the coaches were here too and it only lasted about 2 hrs. THen S had a few friends over and they had a campfire.
WH called during the football thing, talked to S, asked where I was (he wanted to make sure I was not on my way down there!! LOL), S said I was talking to his coach.
I"m glad that he knows that I had the team here, it shows him that life hasn't stopped for us, we are not sitting around crying in our beer!!! And that I continue to be the "involved" parent!
He's coming up tomorrow, sunday, to meet the Bankruptcy Lawyer and sign papers, I have no idea if he plans on coming here to see the kids, I need to make some calls today and find out if he was served the Protection order yet. He may not even know about it yet!
So I'm a bit nervous about tomorrow, don't know if he'll show up here or what.
4 yr. old D starts soccer tomorrow, she is sooo excited, asked me to bring my camera and will she get a trophy!! She sees her 3 big brothers tropy collections and she can't wait to get one of her own!
It's times like these that I think, "WH, you don't know what you're missing!"
Oh yeah, 3isaCrowd, I can still laugh through all of this, does that mean I'm crazy or too sane for my own good?

[ September 06, 2003, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Shugah ]

Shugah, do not take son's threat lightly. Kids hurt badly commit suicide or try all the time.
Now, others may not agree with me, but if Wh can put ow and her kids first,he'd never step foot back into my life again!
Sorry, anybody can hurt me and I can fight for myself, but my kids? That's another story and this is above forgiveness in my book.
Get son into counseling quick. Call crisis centers if you need to. And do not let son be alone. He is your very first priority right now for his life depends on you!
Plan B, or A. I'd move straight to divorce plan!
This man cannot be trusted to care as he's shown, so he's not worth fighting for at all!
Your children are worth fighting for!
So sorry for all that you're having to endure. Just dealing with H's betrayal is bad enough, but to see children depressed and wanting to die, that becomes the greater pain.
You're in prayers, LouLou

Shugah,just reread some post here. Do not worry about the financial support not coming. Get the judge to order it taken straight from his paychecks before he is even given his pay! It can be done. As long as he works and earns a paycheck, you'll get your money!
If anytime he has control and refuses to pay you otherwise, let them pick his A$$ up and take it to jail!
LouLou

WH showed up here at the house while I was at soccer with D, and guess who was with him, yup, OW!!!
He called first, talked to 16 yr old S and asked if I was here, then came by to pick up the concert tix that he's buying off S.
I was so ticked off when I found out he was here and brought OW, I felt he was really pushing the situation considering the Protection Order.
I missed them by about 10 minutes.
I called the Sherriffs Dept. just to have the incident on record as I was not really sure if it was in violation of the order.
A patrol officer arrived and took my statement. He thought it was violation and was going to issure an arrest warrant. But after reviewing the Protection order a 2nd time, he wasn't sure either, he complained that these things are sometimes too vague, so He said he would let the D.A. decide.
So WH could be in further hot water!
I'm filing for D tomorrow as things have gone too far, and WH is not providing support.
My lawyer wants me to fax the Protection order to him for his review and may attend the hearing with me. To be decided.
I was looking at photos today, it was like looking at a complete stranger. It seems so long ago that we had loving feelings for each other. I hate to even go there, it is too painful.

Do you know what I hate!
When someone says to me, "DO NOT take that man back"

I'm not an idiot, I would not take back this shell of a WH, that I do not recognize as a human being, for God's sake!

But I would consider taking back my H, who I was happily married to for 19 yrs., if he were ever to show his self again and make the necessary steps and changes...
I just feel insulted, as if I have stayed married to someone who has acted this way all those years, which couldn't be further from the truth!

Ok, that was all, needed to vent, someone just said that to me... and for some reason it just fries me!

Now that I am proceeding with D, out of financial necessity mostly, what should I do from here?
Attempt Plan B again (I was horrible at it!)
Try new phase Plan A, just to make everyones lives, kids (and of course WH & OW)easier, more pleasant? You know, "honey, let me kiss your **** while you screw your family over?"
At this point I'm sure WH & OW have me portrayed as #1 B##tch. WH thinks I should be calling HIM with children's sports schedule, etc. Yet he doesn't call us for 2 weeks at a time.
Do I just surrender and do the nicey nice XW now.
I still want to protect my children, don't feel that exposure to OW is in their best interest at this point.
I'm feeling pretty down and confused right now.
This new step is tough.
I'll start checking out Divorcing Threads now too. I had hoped I would never have to go there!

Shugah,

I really feel my H has been just as awful as yours is. He treated me and the children horribly about 6 months ago. He was nothing like he is now. He is more like his old self but even in someways better because I believe that he is being more authentic with me. That's the word he is using. In MB terms, he is being honest about how he really feels.

The point is, you can get your old H back. However, I would strongly, strongly recommend PLAN B. PLAN B, the Dobson approach and my modified MM stuff worked for me. I keep learning alot about this from my FWH.

WH called me this evening. I "allowed" him to get me all worked up and upset.
First he starts out by saying "how are the Kids" but barely listens for an answer, before he starts in about the Protection Order, and it of course being my fault for not making it easy for him to see the kids in the house, etc. He made it sound like he hadn't been served the Prot. Order yet and was trying to get the info out of me, what does it mean, what do you mean there is a hearing?, and then finally, you are a lunatic *****, why aren't you over it by now, why are you calling "my" friends.
Also, "don't you know kids whose fathers aren't around on a daily basis?", trying to minimize the affect this is having on them, and then "what is 16 yr. old S wetting the bed?" His attempt again at minimizing 4 yr.olds bedwetting episodes since this all happened!
He told me that the friend of ours who went to the concert with him last night doesn't understand why I call him, and made it sound like friend and his wife don't want to hear from me.
I left them a message about what he said, and within a 1/2 hr. friends wife called, to say, "that is so not true, we love you, we don't understand what WH is doing at all and I had to call you right away because I didn't want you to be thinking that for a minute".
At that point Friend arrived home and got on the phone and filled me in on the concert evening. WH admits that he is doing something unforgivable, he's the one who abandoned his family, but that he's not coming back and that we need to find a way to move forward....etc. etc.
ANyways, WH taunted me, saying, "what is it going to take, 2 yrs. for you to get over it?" I said yeah, that's the standard rule of thumb, if you know of a magic pill that me and the kids can take to wake up over it and make your life easier and guilt free, let me know?
I finally did hang up on him, I was crying, he used that as an excuse for why the kids may not be dealing with it, because they live with a lunatic mother...
He really thinks we live every moment of every day like that....just because he can push the right buttons...
I'm ok now, I was wound up for a bit, but after talking to friend I feel better.
Plan B probably is the way to go from here.

Oh, {{{{{{{{{{{{Shugah!}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I do not know what to say to you. I am so sorry about all this crap you're having to live through. No one deserves to be treated like this.

I will say one thing. Yes, I know you are filing for divorce, but to me, your WH sounds like he's reading from the script...fog-speak!

I know you don't consider that you were "good" at Plan B. Nobody wants to be good at it. We want to be in contact with our spouses, particularly if you have a personality like mine: I am a take-charge gal and want to MAKE THINGS HAPPEN! But Plan B, if we belive the program (and we have to believe!) is succesful many, many times.

Do it. Go to Plan B. Protect yourself from any further emotional abuse. Post here and on my Plan B thread.

We care about you..so very much!

ISG

Thanks IS, you are always so supportive!
I am going to do my best at a Plan B. I can't keep letting him get to me this way.
I too want to make it happen, and I know that there is nothing I can do, and that can be frustrating!!
I must continue moving forward.
WH will eventually crash and burn, I am sure of that, it just may take a while, and I've got some living to do in the meantime!
Hey, I'm climbing another mountain, a bigger one this time (6 hr. climb), in 3 weeks. I should burn off some frustration getting in shape!!

Dear shugah,

Plan B sounds safer for you. It should provide relief from his anger. See his anger is about him. Not you and the kids. Practice in front of the mirror so that when he gets angry, you will be trained to pull away. He will soon realize that if he wants to have dialogue with you, he'd better control his temper and tongue. You don't have to put up with that nonsense.

Don't enable his anger. Check out the book: Love must be tough by Dr James Dobson.

Let him know that when he speaks to you in the tone and way he speaks to his friends, that then you may 'consider' hearing what he has to say. Then, don't say much more.

L.

[ September 09, 2003, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

Doesn't a protective order also include telephone contact? I'd let the police take care of him and his first violation of a court order!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually, this P.Order, prohibits direct contact only, the clerk specifically told me that phone contact was ok.
I'm interested in seeing how it all plays out at the hearing though, if it will be voided or made more specific.
Yes, Orchid, I think I should go back to Plan B.
It's too hard on me to hear the things he has to say, I forget to chalk them up as Fog and take them all to heart as if what he says is believable. "I'm not coming back, so how do we move on from here" really got to me. I got thinking, well if he's really not, then I guess I make it as easy as possible on everyone (which is my caretaker speaking.)
But then I realize, NO, he really still wants to be a cake-eater! He wants me to go out of my way to make visiting the kids easier for him, when it should be the other way around. And the kids are involved in sports, etc., why should they miss out. Let Dad come here to watch and visit.
I'm still also trying to avoid them having to meet OW. As I said to WH last night, stop trying to jam her down their throats and accept this on your time line! You chose her, they didn't.
I shouldn't even try to reason with him, he doesn't hear it anyways. After 8 months, you'd think I'd remember that!

Shugah,

Believe me, IT'S FOG!!

My H said the same things: "Face it, it's all over. I don't love you anymore." He now says it was anger. The anger, he says, relieved him of his guilt. He was an angry man from December to February!!!! He always tried to trigger me and the kids into doing stuff to justify his anger.

Today, he can't get enough of me. We have been talking all day, just chit-chatting on the phone.

Give PLAN B a chance! I also pulled out James Dobson and actually quoted him word for word to my WH. Something to the effect of, "if you want to be free from me, fine. I'll just try my best to go on with my life. I don't deserve to be treated like this." In my heart, I was wanting to beg him to come back but I felt the Dobson approach was my best offense (as MM mignt say).

Take care.

Shugah -

Please, for your own health, get back in Plan B and get off the rollercoaster! It's hard to do with children, I'm sure, but try to do what Orchid said, do not engage him in conversation unless he speaks to you with civility. And then only about the children - what, when, where, how long, etc. I'm wondering, do you feel better, sleep better, when you are NOT in contact with your WH? For me, there is no way I will have anything to do with my WH until he is done with his A. It made me angry, sick to my stomach, so out of balance when WH said his fog-talk crap to me. I will not go back there! Plan B means safety for me. I can imagine some of what WH is doing, but it's not in my face. Think back Shugah, are you safer in Plan B?

Also, think about what your interactions with your WH are giving him and OW - a common enemy - you - on a silver platter. They have so much to talk about after one of these incidents, and it brings them closer for awhile. I know you're filing for Dv to protect yourself financially, but you also say that you know your WH will crash and burn. From what we've all read here, the BS staying out of the way allows the WS to crash and burn sooner rather than later.

Shugah, I hope you don't think this is a 2x4, it most certainly is not, I just hate to see you get hurt by interacting with your WH. Please, protect yourself. Go back to Plan B.

Lablady

Yes! I agree with LabLady. I was going to post and say the same thing. I heard it from the horse's mouth. Setting you up to LB gives them something to focus on other than the mess they have created and themselves. It enables the A.

Shugah, a little dictaphone, a package of tapes, and an attachment to plug into your phone would allow you to record his abuse tirades. shouldn't cost you more than $40 total, and at that point, you can choose to quietly let him know that your next step is harrassment charges, or you can just do it. the tape recording could also prove handy in court proceedings and pre-court negotiations.

You are strong enough that you no longer need to cower in fear at his immenseness! He's an itty-bitty man - a mouse who tries to roar. Wah Wah! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I certainly agree with you ladies!
I know that even though it is hard to be in Plan B, it is better for me.
But something weird is beginning to happen. I noticed yesterday, that even though WH pushed the right buttons, I got angry, crying, upset, I recovered much quicker than usual!
Am I losing my love for him?. I think yes. Am I just getting conditioned to it? Maybe.
I paced and cried for maybe a 1/2 hr. But I the rest of my evening was fine, I even slept the night without my usual tyl.PM!
PLan B it is! If there is anything left of my love for WH, I'b best hold onto it...who knows what could happen!

Actually, I borrowed a tape recorder months ago, just never did get the little phone attachment.
Maybe it's time, at least have it handy. Although I have no intention of letting him rope me in like that again!(I've said that before!!)
Thanks for the feedback you guys, it keeps me going.
Hey Mimi, hope all is well in recovery land!

Shugah,

I was going to refer you to Mimi's thread where she mentioned that her FWH had no memory of earlier confrontations while deep in Fogland.

But then...Mimi appeared! In the early days of recovery and she's still here for all of us. You are something else, Mimi!

The more I read the more I am fascinated by the effects of the A on the WS and the addictive qualities the A provides.

FOG, FOG, FOG. It is all scripted. Just read anywhere here.

Shug, protect yourself, sweetie, from this abuse. Yes you sleep better. It may not necessarily mean you are losing love for him, rather that you are building a protective wall around your heart. I like to think of it as a shelter where we abused WS's have to go live for a while, hoping that our abusers will be reformed.

Problems with the Mortgage Bank. On thurs. I recieved a call saying that as of fri., there would be 3 payments due!
I called WH and asked if he had sent any payments, and told him what I knew. He wasn't very happy that I had called, started off angry.
Anyways he said he hadn't been paid yet this week, I asked what happened with the mortgage payment that he "refused" to leave with me 2 weeks ago, he said "I couldn't very well leave it while I was being escorted away by the police"
EXCUSES, I said, you have children to support, I'm sure OW would have plenty to say if her H was (and probably is)was playing these games with her children's welfare.
HE said, OW hates your guts too, and she doesn't want me to sent you a penny either!
Great, WH, you are officially a dead-beat Dad.
I know LB's everywhere, but I was pretty worked up about possibly losing the house.
ANyways, I did some fast maneuvering and was able to get help with 2 payments. THen WH called later that night, much calmer(familiar?), and said he would be sending a payment fri. or monday to the bank.
I just said, OK, that's good, bye. He said see ya friday (the hearing).
I"ve got a long letter written to him, but I'm thinking I won't send it. He doesn't hear it anyways, probably doesn't even read it. I'll stick to a true Plan B as much as I can. It's the only way to save myself from this madness!
D just said "it's a beautiful day for a walk"!!
She's a peach, so I guess it's off for a walk!!

Shugah,

Can you email me? Got something to tell you.

ISGIRL123@hotmail.com

Thanks.

Just a quick question, looking for your thoughts.

S called WH last night (a rare event), to discuss $ owed S, they talked 15 min. or so (unbelievable), about last weeks concert, football...

WH asked "What's Mom doing?". I had just gone upstairs to put D to bed.

My question is:
From a man who "wants nothing to do with me", why would he even care what I'm doing, why does he ask? Habit? I can't believe he actually cares, so why?

Any thoughts?
You realize, it's been a long time with little real communication(besides the Drama crap) with WH, so I can't help but focus on the little things that come up.

Also, given all that has happened over 8 months,
WH really has dug himself a big ugly hole, even if he wanted to climb out, how would he ever think that he could return? Facing family, friends and community after all of this has to be monumental!
I mean, reading Mimi's post about Steve's comment about WS's needing a plan to do it, how do WS's ever realize that it can be done, if in fact we cannot "educate" them.
Here at MB we all "know" how it works, how on earth does the WS realize that there is hope....
No wonder they just keeping digging deeper into that pit of despair, despondency, anger, I see it in my WH.
Thoughts?

Shugah -- Jump into my post about this question and throw in your 2 cents, please.

So how are ya? Just checking in . Anything going on ? How is being dark going ?

Well hope all is calm , most of all thats important .

Today was the Hearing on the Protection from Abuse Order.
It went well. Although I have probably kissed my M goodbye and quite frankly I believe I have lost most of my remaining love for WH, and see no way this could turn around.
I had a lawyer at the proceeedings, WH chose to represent himself, big mistake! HE did not realize that I was going to get support and visitation established through this process! I believe he thought it was going to be a quick dismissal type hearing. THe disturbing thing is that he showed up with our 18 yr. old son! Halfway through the hearing, during a recess, S told me he wanted nothing more to do with me and left!
The judge was someone that my WH knew from the boys younger sports days, he had coached with him, talked at games etc, the judge was upfront with that and gave us the opportunity to have the case heard by another judge at a later date.
We chose to proceed, I figured good, let him see the "obvious" difference in The new WH from when he was a great dad and husband! It didn't take long for WH to show his new true colors, from the moment he first opened his mouth he began digging himself a hole.
The affair was brought to light, WH was questioned about his expenses, gift buying for OW, etc. WH said his "entertainment" expenses included, dinner, movies, going out on a friday night drinking might cost $50., his gifts have included $250 jewelry, bottles of wine, "negligee", very smugly admitted by WH! I was crying at this point! My lawyer asked him at this point if he was aware that his family was on foodstamps! So I am sure WH made a huge dirtbag impression on the judge by this time.
Long story short, the judgement came down heavily in my favor, weekly child support AND spousal support directly out of WH's paycheck, WH must continue to pay mortgages, property taxes and my lawyers fees!! Visitation must take place only in our state, so he cant take them to his place AND OW cannot be around the children!!!!!!
The only thing not in my favor was that I do have to pickup the kids after visitation, if he takes them overnight to his brother's home, the only place he really has to take them instate. But that's ok, because I don't see it happening often. They are not that close, I talk to BIL more than WH. So I see visitation continuing as day visits mostly.
The hearing was over 5 hrs! I was completely exhausted when i got home. Very emotional day, and nervewracking being on the stand, a first for me. I did very well by the way. On the other hand, WH continually interupted with stupid comments and had to be addressed by the judge, made stupid objections, laughed at my description of being Kicked in the behind, etc. and was constantly confused as to what had already been agreed to for items, which is what dragged out the hearing.
Seeing WH like this was very disturbing and painful. Where is the guy that was so loveable and likable by everyone? He is truly not the same person and it is hard for me to face that.I cannot love someone like this. How could I ever go back after all of this. I am sure he would never come back anyways.
So D is probably next, WH will have more reality to face at that point in terms of supporting his family. He actually commented, "I am trying to start a new life", in response to his financial obligations. Gee, too bad, me and the kids are trying to hold on to ours!
Someday, I hope S grows up some, and will realize that I was always there for him and that what his Dad has done is WRONG, and that I had to do what I did for his younger siblings.
I'm ok, sad and tired, but ok.

Shugah,

Good to hear from you. Wow, you certainly had a looong day.

Your H's actions must have thrown that judge for a whooper and distorted his senses for a while. See how contagious the fog can be? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

At least finances are outlined, now to get him to abide by it. I am sure you are getting prepared. It is a wise move.

take care,
L.

I am so sorry , well you had to do this to protect your family and yourself .

As far as it being over (the M) well no one can predict the future . This may be the reality check he needs to start coming out of FOG .

Some need to hit rock bottom . And hes getting there fast , as ORCHID would say SPIRALING DOWN !

All you need to do now is PLAN B for you !

Yes I am sure for the next couple of weeks he will be pissed off and him and OW will do nothing but bash you and do the OH POOR BABY THING for him .

BUT after awhile I am sure she will get sick and tired of the drama also , Rember OW is in FOG also so she may be having an awaking also .

LIfe is not going to be so fun any more with no MONEY and Visitation that she can't be apert of .

There will be and probbly is already some major REALLITY coming in to there FANTASY life .

You did great and are a wonderful MOM and WOMEN .

STAY STRONG , do not feel bad for anything you have done , look at the strenght it took to do it .

If he does D , well you know that you are strong enough and will only get stronger to be able to live your life with your head held high .

You are and where a faithful wife and great mom for those things alone you should have no regrets .

He will bare the berdone of guilt forever .

Your Son well give him time , he has some growing up to do and some BOYS are what they call late blommers , they are in a FOG of there own .
Wanting to be a MAN and yet they are still scared to grow up .

Be well !

Talked with oldest S today. He has significant anger over the hearing. I am so hurt and angry that WH would put S in the middle like that. S is incredibly angry at my friend who testified regarding angry phone calls from WH. I tried to explain that she was telling the truth, and he insisted she twisted the truth because she is doing to WH what she wishes she did to her WH. He is very angry and said some threatening things about her. I'm not sure how I should react to this. WH would be no help, he probably feels the same way.
There seems to be no one that S respects enough right now that could talk to him. He is also angry with my family, his uncles. I'm wondering if maybe one of WH's brothers or family members could talk to him, so that he might realize that even WH's family sees that what he's done is wrong.
Or should I just let it go for now. Let him simmer down, grow up. Sort of Plan B him. He was using some pretty nasty language. F#*in C*#t, horrible to use in reference to me and friend!!
I am more sad and hurt at the loss of S right now than of WH. But there is really nothing I can do for either of them, I know that.
I am moving on, and I feel better already since the Hearing. I don't want WH, I think he is too far gone.
What a waste, what has happened to my once wonderful little family? Was I living in fantasy world myself?
I am going to enjoy my life with my other children, they deserve a great life and a happy mom. I'm already on my way....

Had a quick conversation with WH. I was led to believe there may be some confusion over who's weekend with the kids this was and I wanted him to know that I had not heard from him and we have plans for the weekend. I was nervous about leaving D at Day Care tomorrow if WH was coming to town while me and S were gone already for our Hiking trip. I have made arrangements for D to get picked up by sister at Day Care.
Anyways.
Long story short, he was trying to get a car to come up, his apparantly has been repossessed.
I told him that his weekend is next weekend and he says " I don't want them then". "I want the same rotation as OW"
I said, "I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way, these were the weekends given to you in court and that's what works best for me"
He says' "fine, I won't see the kids then"
So basically he is saying he won't give up his weekend with OW to see his kids.???
And then he says, "why can't you do what's best for the kids"
I say, "this has more to do with what's best for WH, and you should've thought about what's best for the kids before your A, because NONE of this is what's best for the kids!"
He proceeds to tell me that he won't give me a nickle until he gets the rotation he wants and that his car has been repoed so that means he will be fired from his job, so no one will have any money.
I didn't think quick enough to say, Have OW drive you, she doesn't work!
I ended the call.
He has to be a whits end by now. Wouldn't you think? When will this man hit bottom???
Not sure what this means as far as support. He may be just trying to push my buttons anyways.

(((((((((hugs)))))))))) Yes true with out a job he can't pay for support . SO if the courts get an ear ful of him saying it he can also be put in jail , also if he doesn't pay do to no job he goes in rears , then when he gets one he will pay more installments .

HIT bottom well let him have no job and OW support him . SHE will run quik .

I know all the above does not help you with money or the kids . Whats best for them , well a farther that WANTS to see them .

So do not change that rotation , let him go to court .

YOU can't fall for that about changing things cause its best for kids , don't let him do that to you , he is playing you to make it HAPPY time with OW . SHE can't be with him when he sees his kids so they want there weekends free with out eachohters kids , WOW they should have thought about how D can be so hard . NO alone time poor babys .

YOU stick this out and PLAN B your BUTT off , REALITY will set in there . LIFE is not all about his fun time he needs to grow up and his kids will be hurt but then they get older and realize he could have but choose not to . That is his cross to bare .

STAY STRONG and move foward you doing the right thing .

It's amazing to me how low a person's bottom can be.

"How low can you go?"

Dear Shugah,

Bottom is still a ways down. Until he has a major attitude adjustment, I'd say he is still floating on something (mostly hot air - LOL!!).

So until then, you'd better batten down for a rough ride. Get all your supplies and support in order. Hurricane WS is coming. Make sure when he enters your home, things don't disappear.

In his angry phase you will be held to blame even if he misses the pot! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

Shugah,

How are you doing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

I'm OK.
Just got back from a couple of days of camping and hiking with 12 yr. old S and friends.
It was good to get away.
However, 16 yr. old S had a party while I was gone and the cops came to break it up(But MOM, I didn't tell anyone I was having a party, they just showed up, I was trying to kick them out!!)
There's a chance he could get kicked off the football team, there were 2 other players here also. We had talked about this before I left!!

Ahh, so much for stress relief.

My M is over, I know it. WH is just a complete idiot, I can never even imagine him returning to the person I knew.
I'm moving on. Already exploring my options for a new relationship. Well, no, not a relationship, I NEVER want that again! More like a PA. I just want to feel someones arms around me again. And yeah I want to be loved as much as the next person, but I'm being realistic about my situation. 44 yr. old, bankrupt, divorcee with 3 kids still at home. Come on!!!
I will never put myself in a relationship again, NEVER.
BUt I'm extremely attracted to this guy and he knows what I want, and he's in the same place. His W left him for an OM several years ago. Several failed relationships since.
I don't even care about the 2x4's.
I just want something for me for a change, something to help me turn a corner, move on, look forward.
I'm probably not ready, but I may never be.
Now I know what the start of an A feels like. I think about it all the time, which is a far lot better than thinking about WH and my failed marriage, lost dreams, etc.
So that's how I am.

Shugah:
I can't understand why our sons won't stop stressing us out. They have to know what we are going through, that we can't take anymore!!

Shugah and Mimi,

Your sons keep stressing you out because they are stressed out and don't know how to deal with the different emotions they are going through. Can you imagine what they feel after their whole worlds have been turned upside down? Nothing makes sense and they are hurting and acting on it.

I can say this because my x just got remarried saturday and my oldest who is 13 has been crying for the past 2 days, she is very upset and confused about her emotions, she can't even put them into words. That's where I step in and talk with her more and more and try to help her deal with them and just hug her.

X has the out look that he's happy and our daughter should get over it and move on. um hello who is the adult and parent? how selfish and inconsiderate can he be. Oh that's a dumb question since his wife is the OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Give your boy lots of love and patience. My other daughter has been acting out doing some really dumb things. She's gotten in trouble and I'm also having to help her too. I need some calgon can't you tell?

Big investigation underway at school regarding the party, because the kids are football players, soccer, cheerleaders, etc.
I work at the school, so I have had 3 meetings already this morning.
Last night, S was pretty angry, of course now that he's in the hot seat at school too! He punched 2 holes in my walls, saying things like" you don't trust me,(hello!), you don't believe me, everything I do for you around here" kindof defensive mode stuff.
I tried to get WH involved, what a waste of human flesh! "I don't know what you want me to do, I can't even come up there now(because of protection from Abuse Order)to see him"
Oh give me a break. You wouldn't even come up when I told you 12 yr. old was depressed and mentioning suicide for god's sake, and now you make it sound like it's my fault that you can't come to the rescue.
S wouldn't even talk to him on the phone.
WH says, you know this doesn't have to be as difficult as you have made it. Meaning, the Protection Order, support, lawyers fees, etc.
Come on, who kicked who here, who abandoned who here?
Then he says well, I've got to go, I have to pick up my laundry by 10!
Must be nice!
Actually though, everyone here at school is being very nice, they know my situation pretty much, and know that it hasn't been an easy year for any of us!
I am so tired today!

Shugah,
Did your son say that other people found out you were going to be away and just came over? Believe it or not that does happen and then the kid left home doesn't know how to handle it. Maybe you could tell him how much you do appreciate the things he does do around the house but that is not the issue. Have you talked to any of his friend's to see what happened?

Does S know how to fix walls? I would sure give him all the stuff he needs to figure it out....

I'm going through this with my girls. I understand the hurt and frustration they are feeling but they are still responsible for their actions. I'm trying to figure out how do I show I understand and yet correct the behavior. I don't want them thinking they can go around acting crazy... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[ September 30, 2003, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Purpleroses ]

Thanks P.Roses,
Trouble with S is that he gets angry very quickly, it is sometimes very hard to "discuss" anything!
His story is that, he was trying to turn people away, I am still trying to get the whole scoop.
I haven't talked to the police yet either, to get time frames, etc.
Also, S has always been my better teen yet a more skillful "liar", which makes it hard to accept all he says as the truth.
I have been trying to talk more with the kids about everything, and I will try to concentrate more on all the good they do. Because basically they are "great" kids!

Surpriseingly, WH called me at work today to follow up on S's party and school consequences.
Very civil conversation.
At the time there was no new info.
This eve. I called him to tell him of S's 2 game suspension and counseling requirement (my choice), the other choice was a 3 game suspension.
Anyways, another decent conversation regarding, S and the kids in general, visitation.
Not surprisingly, he doesn't think he'll be up this weekend, car excuses, blah blah.
I did tell him about S's reaction to WH's call this afternoon. "don't tell him anything, he ditched us all" WH says, well I guess I'll have to deal with his anger. I replied, you know, I'm the one dealing with it, the holes in the walls, the tantrums, etc. I also mentioned that this anger streak seems to be going around (WH & protection order). He didn't say anything to that.
WHat I should have said was, that as the adult, he needs to find away to show his S that he is still his father and that he cares about what is going on and that he can have some impact on his life and behavior.
Instead he uses the excuse of being away as the reason he can't help discipline!
It's been a hectic few days. S still sticking to his story that he wasn't drinking, but school officials feel there is enough evidence and testimony to the contrary. I don't know what to believe anymore, but I do know that S can be very convincing sometimes. He's accusing me of not being there for him, not believing him, "this is some family" type comments. Just trying to turn it around so the focus is on me and not him. Angry that "someone" is giving false testimony about who was drinking, etc. He's also mad that his uncle gave him a talking to on the phone. This same uncle is the one who got him a car two weeks ago, and told him that he would yank it from him if his grades dropped or his behaviour was out of line. Now S is mad about that too.
I'll be glad when this week is over!

((((((hug)))))))) Good move picking the 2 day with counseling . If I was you I would start family counseling as well .

NO MB talk here JMO and freindly feelings ok , so no flaming LOL

I know your supposed to be in PLAN B (N/C) , but I don't agree when there are kids involved . But I also don't think you will get any where with WH on any sarcastic talk and for the most part even talking nice and only in concern for kids is going to take awhile before you see any results.

AGIAN JMO , but I think I would have heart to heart with S , tell him yep this ain't much of a family right now so what are WE going to do about that ? Want to be an adult then starty acting like one .

WE are a family and family sticks together , so if life is alittle rough right now should we be fighting or working together.

Explain there farther loves them (yes I said, that) Tell them he may be going through some adult emotions right now and if they need him they should reach out to him .

I would make an effort to speak to WH , VERY calmly with no tone or sarcasim . EXPLAIN what you said, ubove just alittle kinder .

I am a parent and so are you, I know that you love your kids as much as I do (yes I said, that ) Our lives have been changed all of our lives and we need for our children to find a better way to approach things . I relize that I am still angrey at you and that does not help ,I will try to work on that . I would hope that you to could work on some things as well so I wouldn't feel as angry .

I would like for you to understand I will not use kids against you I want them to have a loving relationship with there DAD . But relationships are a 2 way street and they need to see that from you . Times are tough but we all need to grin and bare it , so maybe you can make arangments on having a better car or taking a bus to see your kids . Maybe calling every other night would be good as well . I don't know exactly but would like to work on a PLAN to have our children know BOTH there parent s are here for them .EVEN if you don't live with them that you will be there to lean on .

OK my book is done you get the picture , I don't know if anything helped . From my experiance this helped FWS start to come around , one he couldn't tell OW I was this witch . also he thought I gave up on us and was just getting the kids ready for the D (witch in a sense I was in case it happened ) so we could be freinds as there parents . AM I making sense ??

The next is if this starts to work and he gets it then go to more PLAN B style . If he then ever asking about you shut the convo down , I am good as long as my kids are ok . END .

I wrote a book I am sorry . AGAIN get into family counseling its good for you and the kids . If insurance is not there or money for it , look up state funded or youth centers , churchs ect.

BIG brother program for your son . It is possiable another older teen who maybe comes from a D family will be easier to open up to .

ALSO you mentioned your BI being close to you have the kids spend some outings with him as well .

Enough rambling just giving food for thought .BE WELL take care of you some where in all this .

YOU ARE IMPORTANT AND WORTHY OF HAPPINESS !!!!!

Quite a week around here! Some good, some bad.
S is acting out big time, since he got caught having the party. Very angry with me now that he is grounded. Then blames me for his being angry too! Very verbal, last night I let him yell and scream and swear and I just would not bite. He got even angrier because all I would say is "please leave my room, now". He wanted to leave in his car, he kept saying, "I'm leaving, OK" and I'd just reply, "no, it's not ok". He eventually went outside and sat in his car listening to music. At least he knew better than to leave.
WH called around 10:30 pm. Apparantly S had called him and left a message. I filled him in on the evening. WH says that he knows S wants his hunting guns back from my brother, and I said NO, I am not comfortable with guns in the house, until all of this anger has been dealt with! I think he saw my point. I said, I can take the verbal abuse, as hurtful as it may be, but it won't Kill me! I said, I have no $ for a gun cabinet to lock the guns in (something I have told him we NEEDED for a while) I said if S wants to hunt this season then he is going to have to agree to some counseling. That may be the only way I can possibly get him there.
Now the good for the week! Although some of you will not see it that way.
First you have to understand that I have accepted that my M is over, and I am quite frankly tired of fighting for it, dreaming for it, longing for it! All that is left is to get the D, but for certain reasons, some of which have to do with the recent support and visitation order, I have not filed yet. Right now WH is under court order not to have OW around the children and I don't want to risk losing that for now. And for whatever reason, $ maybe, WH has not filed either.
Anyways, I have been friendly with a guy at work for some months now. We've met several times over the past month for drinks and talk. His wife left him, several yrs. ago for an OM, and he has had a couple of uunsuccessful R's since, so lots to talk about. We both agree that we do not want a ERelationship, although we will not rule anything out. He is easy to talk to, very caring and thoughtful. And we are both lonely. AHHah, all the right ingrediants for an A!! Now I know how they start and how they feel! It did get physical and it was great(of course). After all this time, it was wonderful to just be close to someone again.
Please understand, my M is over. This was a huge step for me in accepting that it is over and there is nothing left.
For the first time in 10 months, I feel good about ME! I can dare to believe that there is life after all of this, that someone could still be attracted to me. I feel renewed strength to deal with the kids, financial challenges, etc. I was really beginning to seriously burnout on the whole scene. Yes, I have some mixed emotions, but overall, I feel like I can move forward, instead of living in the past, wondering "what if", feeling bad for continually losing hope and love for WH. I believe he is a lost cause as an H and a father.
THose of you have followed my story since Feb., know that I was "Learnin" and hopeful that this roller coaster ride would someday end. You know that I have tried but often failed at following the MB principles. I still believe in them and know that they can work for you!
Just not for me. It's over. But my life is just beginning. I will not introduce a relationship into my children's lives for a long time and perhaps never. They have so much yet to deal with. For now, WH is not permitted by court order to have OW around them. But eventually, it will have to happen.
I have hesitated to post about this, but because I have shared so much of my life with all of you, I felt compelled to be honest about what is going on despite the risk of so many 2x4's!! I can't be the first one who has chosen to take this step. And perhaps by being honest and sharing, we can better understand and process this new stage of our lives. One we never asked for, imagined or believed we could carry out.
It's scary in some ways. Change is scary sometimes, but in the long run it may be for the best.
I certainly do not endorse this as something to do while you wait for a WS to return from the Fog! I truly believe there is no hope for my M and that he would never have returned to us.
Thankyou for your understanding and please know that I still respect and want your support even if it is not what I want to hear!
Here goes, ADD REPLY....

Hi Shugah,

Just checking in...hope you know who I am.

I feel so much for you! Know that I am here, reading and feeling for you, always!

{{{{{shugah}}}}}}

*S*

Shugah,

No 2x4 here just a {{{{hug}}}}. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Thanks!! You guys are the best!

Ok No way are you getting a 2x4 from me . LOL

Theres just a couple of things , I totaly understand about not D yet , support, RO, Money ect.

Lets just make sure that no where in there is an excuse OK .

Also theres my veiw in honesty also , Plaese do not get mad .You know I have followed you SINCE you where "LEARNIN" about all this .

If moving on is what YOU want and feel AT PEACE with this decion then that is the most wonderful feeling to know you can let go of the anger .

With these feeling of freindship and dating I am not saying WH has the right to know but I still would make it some how clear to him that you are now MOVING on in every aspect of your life and you will still not file for D , ( I still wouldn't either just a matter of princeple)
And that there is to be no more contact with him except for the kids . Also that because of the kids there should be no one introduced into there lives(OW or if you start dating) for awhile until things are final (D)and they see that the both of you will be able to PARENT on the same team .

I do hope I am making sense .

Also if you are truely ok with this happening in your life then , talking to him (wh) should be some what easier , it should be very genuine that you feel the peace of it being over .

Ok I am done I hope you are happy and heal yourself from this rollercoaster .

((((((hugs)))))))

Why do I have this weird feeling that now, after I have finally moved forward, BIG TIME, WH is coming out of FOG.
He has been given no real indication from me that I have moved on, communication is minimum, Protection from Abuse Hearing a major LB for both of us, but maybe just the dose of reality that WH needed? Even though he's angry, I think it showed him that I am standing up for myself and demanding to be treated right.
Nothing concrete to give me this feeling, just comments made by WH to MIL and to me.
I'm still moving on, can't wait around for fog to lift any longer....if it does...well, I just don't know anymore.

Plan A is all well and good.

But Plan B kicks A$$. Confidence is sexy. Do you think you would be attracted to a doormat? As soon as you start displaying more confident independent behavior, he's gonna get interested.

It works.

Nothing too dramatic for a change, but some interesting developments. NOt sure how to interpret or if they mean anything at all.

WH & I had several short but fairly civil phone conversations last week. WH's anger is still evident, however at one point I hung up when he got going and he called back much calmer. I just said, "do you feel better now?", his response, "a little".
We proceeded to discuss the kids, his upcoming weekend visit and of all things..baseball!
It was too weird.
He got emotional several times, he cried at one point, when he said he felt bad enough about not being able to watch the playoff game with 12 yr old S, and then cried again, when he said "S probably doesn't want anything to do with me. I did tell him, he shouldn't give up on him, but to keep communicating with him and maybe he'd come around. He needs to let S know that there is a place for him in WH's life.
He said that he would not let visitation schedules interfere with the kids sports activities or any of my plans with them that might come up, he would be flexible.
He came up sat., met at D's hockey, then we went to 16 yr. old's football game with D. We actually sat together, like a family,uggh, he bought me coffee. D swinging between our arms....loving it.
Little things, I know, and definately not Plan B, but I was friendly, looking good and he knew that I had "plans" sat. night. He kept the kids at a motel room. He's still not happy about me not letting him stay at the house, but I'm keeping firm on that.
He did come into the house at the end of the visit and stayed for maybe a 1/2 hr. Very friendly, despite the incredible anger of only a month ago.
He was playing with the dog at one point and said "Dog is probably the only one who misses me" I said quietly, no he's not the only one. WH did not respond or look at me. He did not seem in such a hurry to leave as he has in the past, and the kids were preoccupied, it was mostly just me and him in the kitchen.
I did not talk R, I was tempted to write a letter, but will not. I will just let this all ride. But I can't help thinking that I may be seeing a slight breakthrough of the FOG.
Or maybe he is just looking for a more civil and easy relationship compared to the hell of the past months.
Either way, it did feel good. I just don't want to get my hopes up that he could be reconsidering the A, our marriage, etc. I know he misses the kids, but does he miss me and does he miss us enough?
It's just that he seemed more, I don't know, "interested". He's been so out of it for so long, he was more like himself for the first time in long while.
I'm looking for some feedback, thoughts anyone?

Shugah,

I would say that he's wanting to know the road map back based on what I've learned from my H.

I would love to know Mortarman's thoughts on how to proceed now.

Maybe ask for a response from him.

He wants his marriage and family but the road must seem too long and winding for him and he needs your help. It really sounds encouraging to me.

Mimi,
I have said often, that WH would not know where to begin, if he ever did decide he wanted to come back to the M. Not sure he would even be able to take that first step or know how to.
WH has said to me before, how could it possibly work now? He of course doesn't know what I know, MB, etc.
I do feel that he needs to figure it out. Or we will be back to the old M, where I felt I was doing all the work.
Should there be any help from me in this process and when is the right time to gently put out the breadcrumb trail home?

Mimi,
I have said often, that WH would not know where to begin, if he ever did decide he wanted to come back to the M. Not sure he would even be able to take that first step or know how to.
WH has said to me before, how could it possibly work now? He of course doesn't know what I know, MB, etc.
I do feel that he needs to figure it out. Or we will be back to the old M, where I felt I was doing all the work.
Should there be any help from me in this process and when is the right time to gently put out the breadcrumb trail home?
Also, MIL told me that a couple of weeks ago, WH commented to her something like, "if I went home, the kids would probably be so resentful of what I've done", she said it sounded like he was thinking about it.
I was trying not to put much stock in it. But things seem to be adding up...

Shugah,

It seems to me that so much has happened since your PBL that it might be OK to write another one, coming up with new terms for him to come back.

You wouldn't be doing all the work. He would need to do the work to comply with your terms.

The PBL would need to have all the important MB ingredients.

I would send it now if you want to continue to work on your marriage. He seems open, Shugah. However, you know what's best for you.

I found that it has been helpful to go with "my gut". Believe in your own intuition. I'm hearing that you felt that there is an opening with your WS. I've learned to never give up hope.

You know how awful my H has treated me. I thought he tried to kill me, really, on one crazy night several months ago. Now, he is really acting like himself again. I can give a testimony as to how even the worse situation can really change- with lots of hard work and effort, of course.

I've learned that he must have been temporarily insane during certain phases of the A. There are a lot of events that he says that he does not even remember. We here call it being IN THE FOG.

Shugah,

Good to hear from you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But I can't help thinking that I may be seeing a slight breakthrough of the FOG. <hr /></blockquote>It might be...but there is no way to know right now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Or maybe he is just looking for a more civil and easy relationship compared to the hell of the past months.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe...but again, no way to know right now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Either way, it did feel good. I just don't want to get my hopes up that he could be reconsidering the A, our marriage, etc. I know he misses the kids, but does he miss me and does he miss us enough? <hr /></blockquote>You know Shugah, Just Learning gave me a great big piece of advice right before my wife came home...right when she started askign questions. I had all of these same questions as you, and many more. And JL said that in his life, almost all of the important decisions were really made for him...that in the end, the obvious right answer came out. And it did for me. And it will for you.

So, as you said above, just let it ride for awhile. If he is just being civil, then civility is a lot better for you and the kids than what you were going through.

If it is him peeking his head through the fog, the last thing you need to do is scare him back inside.

Again, as JL says..."Steady as she goes." Then when more concrete info comes in, you can post here and come up with a gameplan on what to do.

So far, so good, Shugah.

In His arms.

The LAYMAN EXPERT, MORTARMAN, has spoken.

I would listen to him.

However, do LISTEN TO YOUR GUT INSTINCTS!!!

Take Care.

THANKS!
I figure for now I'll just let it ride a bit.
I've come this far, what's a little more time!
The holidays right around the corner, worry me. Again, opportunity for niceness, civility, or true foglifting, it will be confusing for sure.
In the meantime I continue moving forward as if my life will be without him, it is the only way I can manage.
I don't post as much anymore, don't seem to have the same "need" as I once did, but I still come here to lurk. I think it is an indication that I have truly begun to move forward.
Thanks, guys, You'll be hearing from me.
Mimi, by the way, I am so HAPPY for you!! Ive been following!
Mortarman, hope all is well and that you too are moving forward in Recovery!

Shugah,

I was reading along and MM comes along and gives you the advice I was going to offer. It appears that you are NOT in a Plan B per se'. More of a plan A with separation thrown in.

I agree with MM I don't think you will have to decide, the data will make your decision for you as time goes on. Have patience, the holidays will be much harder on him than on you and the kids.

I would also like to offer you some insight I recently acquired about Plan A. In posting to a variety of people who were wondering why Plan A was NOT working, I realized that they didn't really understand it.

I think given what you have said, that my understanding of Plan A might be of use to you. I believe that Harley recommends plan A for ONE major reason. It offers a way back for those WS's, that are having second thoughts. It shows that the BS can make changes, does want them back, and is willing to accept their role in the weakening of the marriage. In short, the Plan A is holding the door open for the WS.

It seems to me that the WS's that take advantage of Plan A to come back, are those that left for one reason, and then realize that reason wasn't very good and that they need to reevaluate the situation. For those holding the door open works, AND it plants the seed that the BS is capable of forgiving even if Plan B follows. It is the seed planting that is key.

You mentioned that your H doesn't know the way back and you worry that he won't find it. With plan A you hold the door open and you softly call to him, leading him back. You cannot force him back as you well know, but you can softly and gently call to him, and he may just follow your voice.

It sounds to me your H has many regrets already and he is feeling the loses. Will that translate into him coming back and committing to the marriage??? No one knows. But, your actions, and his suggest that there is the potential. So the message is "steady as she goes", but keep your eyes open. Things are changing, but the direction is yet to be determined.

That is my best guess.

God Bless,

JL

Shugah,

You have received wonderful advice from Mimi, Mortarman and Just Learning. There is not much I can add to it. I agree with them. Hold steady, be patient (tough, I know!), and more clues will come your way. Sounds very much like your WH is testing the water. He realized a little bit this weekend that the water is lukewarm, not icy cold as he expected. Allow him to take that information, digest it, get comfortable with it and he will probably make another tiny move.

Anyway, just wanted you to know I am here. My warmest thoughts are with you as always. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

*S*

[ October 20, 2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: *Sparkle* ]

JL,

Sorry to steal your thunder! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Shugah, listen to JL. I am only giving you advice that I received from him, Steve Harley, and many others that helped me thru this.

As everyone that has been here awhile can verify...there isreally nothing new under the sun. WSs are remarkably similar. Sure there are different "flavors." And as JL spelled out, some will never get it. But most do, given the ideal circumstances. If you plow your fields the best you can, seed them well, and keep them watered...then that's all you can do. He will decide if he will grow. And if he doesnt...well, there was nothing you could do anyway.

Keep up the good work!

In His arms.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />WSs are remarkably similar. Sure there are different "flavors."<hr /></blockquote>Take your pick of WS, we got Rocky Road, Pistachio Nut, Banana Walnut, Cherry Almond, Black Cherry, Candy Cane, Chunky Monkey, you name'em we got'em. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Significant observation about me:
It's been 2 days since I saw WH, a visit described above as a wonderful improvement over the past several months.
I have not cried, or obsessed (much!)or had that overwhelming feeling/need to communicate with him.
I still want to have my family whole again, but it is not that desperate, oh my god, this has to work, feeling of the past.
Time does work wonders!!
I can wait this out. I won't scare him back into the deep Fog, I have to have faith in the man I knew. If he was as good as I believed, his goodness will get the better of him and win out.

Shugah,

I totally understand where you are - finally.

You might want to read a recent post I wrote on the Plan B thread.

Time does work wonders, and you will see how I am finally at a peaceful point.

*S*

shugah,

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I read your last post and must say, I am proud that you are able to recognize your accomplishments.

You are headed the recovery way. Hope your H wakes up in time before you lose him in the dust. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I like the way you posted about him coming to his senses. If he were to read that....... I think he would concur. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

hugz,
L.

I'm a bit confused thinking about NC and Plan B.

How is NC with OP supposed to get WS through withdrawal and over the A, YET Plan B which is just another name for NC for BS's supposed to do the opposite. That is, to get WS missing BS and family and start the process of lifing the fog....

All morning long, I thought of calling WH and suggesting D & I meeting him halfway for a visit. (The other kids had plans). It was a very strong feeling...but, I didn't call. Finally after noon time, I had D call to say hi, and then we spoke. Nothing major, just chit chat. I then told him what I had been thinking all morning, he said, Oh, I didn't have any plans today...
I was surely expecting rejection...but MIMI, I should have gone with my gut on this one and called early in the day when there was time to do it...the fact that he was open to that is a far cry from the not so distant past weeks, months.
I'm just not sure that Plan B, which I tried so hard at all summer, had much affect...except to help him over his withdrawals of missing us?? He did say that he did a change of address (after all this time??), and that I'll need to get the bills that I pay put in my name or they'll go to his address....it felt like he was taking a step of permanence...he now has a car registered in another state...all steps of making this separation permanent...?
I'm thinking way too much as a result of a long, boring and lonely weekend, mostly just D & me, I never even got dressed today...sappy movies and radio...not good for the lovelorn!!
I'll plan for next weekend, don't want to do this again...

Shugah:

How are you? I know the weekends are awful.

I am a real strong believer in doing what YOU think is best in your own particular situation. That may mean a modified PLAN B. I really don't think Steve Harley would disagree with strategizing to do what would be best for YOU and your particular situation. That's how he has counseled me.

Looking back over my situation and listening to what my H is saying to me now, it was crucial for me to open the door at the right times during PLAN B. Also, maintaining PLAN B was also crucial. It scares him that I will suspend all contact with him if he resumes contact with the OW. He checked me out before his plan to leave this time, asking if we could be friends and I made it clear that we could not. He knows now that I can do that, that I am not going to be just sitting around waiting for him.

So, I'm still a believer in a MODIFIED PLAN B. Mortarman though is the master on how and when to best accomplish this. I went with my GUT and it worked out for me.

Hang in there. All of this is difficult and awful for us.

It seems that even my son and H are beginning to work on their relationship, Shugah. I thought that could never happen. So, Shugah, if you can bear through the pain, never give up hope for change. It can happen!!!

I'd really like to hear a few answers to Shugah's question: how is NC between H & W different than NC between WS and OP? If one is supposed to help them forget, why is the other supposed to help them remember?

I've wondered this myself, and would appreciate some enlightenment about the mechanics.

The NC between OW and WS is because the A is like an ADDICTION, like an ADDICTION to DRUGS OR ALCOHOL. The HARLEYS use the same treatment approach as recommended for someone withdrawing from a substance.

The marriage on the other hand is a healthy substitute. The more the WS has to depend on the ADDICTIVE RELATIONSHIP, the more they are expected to realize its unhealthiness.

The A and the M are like apples and oranges or rather a rotten apple vs. a ripe apple. The same principles do not apply to a marriage as apply to an A.

The answer to Shugah's question is quite simple. NC is intended to do the SAME thing to the WS...to put the WS in a position where only ONE person is meeting their needs. Of course, that means they will be withdrawing from the other.

Now, when we go to Plan B (and the answer above is the reason we must have a good Plan A...please read on to why that is), BSs are trying to essentially say that they are pulling out of the equation. That the OP now has to meet EVERY need. And, to top it off, the WS must go through withdrawal symptoms from their BS, ESPECIALLY after a successful Plan A.

When the WS comes home and re-engages the relationship, this also forces the BS to meet ALL of their needs. Even the ones that the WS was meeting. At the same time, the WS will be going through withdrawal from the OP. So, as you can see, the method is the same. BUT...the results are VERY different!

In the majority of cases, when NC happens in Plan B between the BS and WS, the OP finds himself/herself in the position of having to fulfill ALL of the WSs needs. And most of the time, they didnt sign up for that. They made no vows of sicker, poorer...until death. They dont have kids with the WS (sometimes they do!). For most, they dont have a history with the WS. And even with all that, they dont have the bond that God puts together when two people marry.

So, the OP finds out very quickly that they were better off when the BS was helping out. In a way, they come to wish that the BS would get back into the picture. Their relationship is based on fantasy, lies, deceit. Then reality comes, everyday stuff between the two of them...and it isnt fun anymore.

They didnt sign up for this. So, the fighting begins, the nagging. They begin to get on each others nerves, as the WS latches on and tries to suck the life out of the OP. They are in pain now (withdrawal from BS and not having the needs the BS meets being met). And so they come full force at the OP, demanding they be there for them. After all, they are "soulmates" arent they? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Eventually, in a good Plan B, the WS realizes that there are needs the OP just isnt going to meet. So, they start contact back up with the BS, or at least try. They now have the first wisp of clean air, out of the fog. So, they take a look at what they left behind. Is it still there? Could they get back the needs being met that they had before?

So, they go for cake-eating. They try anything and everything to get the BS back in the game, so they can continue getting their needs met by both the BS and OP. After all, that is when all their needs were being met, and they werent in pain. Right now, it is painful.

But, they find out from the BS in a good Plan B, that there is no possibility now of cake eating, of fence sitting. They will have their needs met by one, or the other. Now, the WS sees that no matter which way they go, there is pain. They become frantic in their attempt to get OP to meet their needs. They then become frantic in getting BS engaged. Even to the point, as my wife said when she first came out of the fog, to show up for no other reason than to argue...because at least an argument can soften the pain.

But a BS that doesnt play, evetually forces a WS into a "coming to Jesus" moment. They now realize that the pain isnt stopping. They realize they have ZERO chance of the OP meeting their needs effectively on their own (how many WSs have come on here and talked about how they knew it was over with OP, but just couldnt end it?) but they stay for awhile longer, getting whatever fix they can. In the meantime, they begin to wonder (especially afte a Good Plan A) if the BS was right...the PBL was right. Could the situation at home change? Could the BS effectively meet all of their needs? I mean, they now know there is no chance in the OP doing that...but maybe there is a chance that their spouse will. They had done it before.

So, they finally break down (a lot of the time, by this point, the OP has had enough playing house and the pain on their side and has decided to leave the WS), and come home.

Now, we switch to a different pain. Now they are withdrawing from the OP and needing the BS to meet their needs. Well, as soon as the withdrawal period is over, as long as the BS keeps from LBing, then meeting the WSs needs is possible. And over time, the WS begins to believe in the changes...and the marriage is repaired.

So, the idea is the same in either case...to force the WS into withdrawal, and to having whomever they are with meet all their needs. In most cases, that is nearly impossible for the OP to do (and is why 95% of those relationships fail). In the case of the BS, if they are smart and follow the MB plan, then there is a very good shot that the marriage will be repaired.

I hope that answers the question.

In His arms.

Of course, as usual, MORTARMAN, the GREAT ONE, says IT ALL!!!

Mortarman, your scenario describes what's going on now in my R to a tee!!! You are A MASTER!!!
FWS has realized that I am not changing and can meet all of his needs. Now, if only he can maintain NC. As I said before, he didn't go back this time despite his lapse because he remembered the pain of his withdrawal from me during my PLAN B!!! He believes that cake-eating will no longer be allowed.

You've got it soooo RIGHT!!!!

My post crossed Mimi's. I was going to say: "Mortarman is a miracle."

You wrote: "They then become frantic in getting BS engaged. Even to the point, as my wife said when she first came out of the fog, to show up for no other reason than to argue...because at least an argument can soften the pain."

I did have the feeling that H's sudden request to get his stuff out of my house was not prompted by an emergency as it was an excuse for contact.

Thanks for the replys, very helpful.
I suppose it's best I not initiate any contact or meetings. I'll let WH do that.
He did say he was going to try to get up for Halloween night to see D, wondered what our plans for trick 0r Treating were. He's not sure if he can get out of work early.
I'll take it from there, if he wants to join in I'll let him, but I'll play cool yet cordial.
I will TRY to avoid R talk, etc.
I know that letting him join in is letting him get his needs met....
AT some point I just feel that I have to let him in a little bit after everything that has happened in recent weeks...so that he can see that even after the hell he put me through, I am still here.

HEY!!!

I was wondering (WORRYING) about the exact same thing! How could no contact with the other person help them get over their addiction to the affair, but no contact with the betrayed spouse (in Plan B) not just help the wayward spouse totally get over the betrayed spouse?

Thanks SO MUCH for the explanation!

I was particularly concerned since my husband admitted to me several times he was being careful to keep me at a distance - trying to remind himself to keep hating me, to stay angry at me, not let himself fall back in love with me, and veing "nervous" that he sometimes felt "turned on" by my appearance or my attempts to hug him sometimes. Also, when she broke up with him for over a month he called her once or twice a day but when we were separated he admitted he'd go as logn as he could (a few weeks) before calling us and if he didn't instantly get the full green light from me he'd withdraw again. So he definitely was making sure the odds were stacked against me. I even laughed about it one when talking to him (probably a mistake) that it must mean something that he had to try so hard to not make sure he ended up with her instead of me.

I was just trying to cheer myself up and boost my courage to do a Plan B by focusing on the fact the my husband and the other woman are having a LOT of problems in their relationship. She had "been assured" his family was totally out of his life so when I started Plan A 3 months ago she flipped out and started acting very jealous and controlling. She basically competed with my daughters for his time, calling him during their visitation with their father to check up on him. Apparently she was giving him ultimatum to choose between his family and her. He was even skipping work sometimes to try to fit in time with both. She was breaking up with him weekly during first 2 months and entire last month of Plan A! AND when I checked his cell phone record there was trouble over something (not related to us) before that! There were numerous short calls during say a 10 minute period from him to her. Either she was hanging up on him, refusing to pick up, or he was calling repeatedly to leave her messages. So there was plenty of trouble in paradise already (YAY!) So even though I didn't understand how my doing no contact during a Plan B wouldn't just help him get over me, I had sort of figured out that left to themselves they would probably self-destruct anyway. (BUT I was plenty worried about them maybe being in that 5%)

Thanks for the explanation. It really does help ease some of my fears and gives me needed courage to stick to Plan B. AND, even though I'm really only a couple of days into Plan B, haven't even sent the letter yet just told him over the phone, he is initiating contact, trying to see us, and went to family counseling appt. this morning!

Icedancer,

Send the letter today. Stop ALL contact with him. Go at separate times to the counselor. Do not allow him to cake eat. He is now in that pain I talked about. Dont help him...let him feel every drop of it.

Go dark...so dark, not even night vision goggles will work. But you must send the surrender letter (the PBL) before going dark.

Do it today.

In His arms.

Thanks Mortarman

"Send the letter today."

I will write it as soon as we get home from the rink tonight, send it via e-mail followed up by a snail-mail copy tomorrow (I am worried he might show up at the rinkt though like he dropped in on daughter's skating last night - if he does I will make an extremely brief statement about being willing to work on saving marriage when he stops all contact with the other woman but until then I can't have anything to do with him. Then I will not say any more and not sit near him.)

"Stop ALL contact with him."

I will stop answering the phone - let it go to the answering machine instead.

"Go at separate times to the counselor."

The family counselor wanted to meet everyone in the family separately first anyway before having us come in together. I was getting ready to go this morning because he had said he wasn't. When he called for directions I stayed home then. I was very tempted to call him afterwards but resisted. We have an appt. with the marriage counselor Saturday morning. It's a joint session and the counselor had told me at my last individual session to wait to make the appt. until my husband agreed to come with me. So I guess I should call the counselor to explain why I won't be coming? I don't want either the counselor or my husband to interpret my absence as an unwillingness to commit to working on the marriage should my husband meet the conditions of the Plan B letter. Or should I go just to make a statement in person, in front of the counselor, what must change before I will have any more contact with my husband?

"Do not allow him to cake eat. He is now in that pain I talked about. Dont help him...let him feel every drop of it."

I know what you mean because when we were separated even just brief, infrequent or hostile phone calls from him gave me some assurance that he was still thinking of me and was not totally over me yet. I am already VERY worried that he suffers more withdrawal when she breaks up with him then when he misses me. So I am very motivated to make him miss me severely right now.

Last weekend we spent together and it was VERY nice. He was with us and lots of friends all day Saturday for daughter's birthday party and with us most of day Sunday. He stayed for several hours after the birthday party to watch a movie with us. He called me honey and his pet nickname for me a couple of times. He sat near me and kept watching me, lots of eye contact and I just kept smiling. We had absolutely no arguments and I didn't bring up relationship or pressure him in any way - just enjoyed our time together. And he invited me to go skating with him every Sunday evening - adult skate session so no excuse of seeing me just because of the kids. So I feel confident that the last two days I spent with him were very positive as far as filling his love bank vs love-busting. So suddenly going into Plan B on Monday was good timing for maximizing withdrawal I guess?

"Go dark...so dark, not even night vision goggles will work. But you must send the surrender letter (the PBL) before going dark.

Do it today."

OK.

"In His arms."

Thanks. It really has been a help for me to remember that God will see us through this whatever the outcome. I have been prayign all day that God will keep us in the shelter of his arms PLUS will keep my husband in his arms. I know my husband is suffering and is scared. I pray he finds the courage and wisdom to choose the rigth path out of his pain. I have a strong fear that when we go places we will run into my husband and the other woman together. I don't honestly know how my daughters and I could deal with something like that. So I just keep praying that if it ever does happen God will protect us. This is such a strong fear for me that I am seriously considering asking my husband to move away with the other woman if he ultimately chooses her (our daughters don't want any contact with their father anymore and they have control of visitation so that would not be a problem)

Ladies,

MM forgot something pretty important about Plan B. It is based on Dr. Harley's observation that a large fraction of all A's end. Purely and simply they end, and they will do so with or without plan B.

The problem is if you are heavily engaged with WS during all of the goings and comings of an A, then you will very likely wear out, and lose your love for WS. So when A ends you won't feel like nor have the love necessary to do the very HARD work of recovery.

Why is it different between OP and BS with NC. There is no marriage, vows, children whatever between OP and WS, but these ties are still there with WS and BS after the A ends. So this connection makes NC between OP and WS much different than between WS and BS.

However, Plan B is really and simply a strategy for cutting down the pain that the BS would go through if there was contact, thus preserving for a longer period of time the love it will take to survive recovery. If the A doesn't end, then plan B will also help because the BS has already started to withdraw from WS, and the pain of divorce is lessened.

The additional effects that MM listed as the OP having to meet the WS's full needs are clearly there, but the real purpose is based on Harley's observation that most A's end with or without BS help.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Icedancer,

Allow me to add one recommendation to MM's encouragement to send the Plan B letter: send the OW a copy; you can even put the P.S. on it that's recommended in Surviving An Affair. If you need the wording, let us know.

Given how upset she has become in the past, knowing that you love your H and will do anything to save your marriage will surely not make her happy or comfortable in the relationship.

Good luck!

*S*

Most affairs end. Most affairs end. I am waiting for this affair to end. This, it seems to me, is the mantra most BSs should repeat to themselves over and over again.

Like in the Tao of Pooh. The Pooh Way is to accept where you are. You get stuff done via synchronicity and minimal effort, not through fighting and screaming and resisting and struggling. When I fight, I wear myself out. When I flow, I recover and grow.

Not that I'm able to implement that on a daily basis. There is a limit to the amount of acceptance of life that any one of us imperfect humans can attain. Plan A is while you are able to accept with equanimity. Plan B is when you are no longer able to accept with equanimity, and you choose to disengage rather than fight.

Plan D is when you fight. D-Day is when you fight. All your LBs in any plan on any day are when you fight. The fight hurts you as much as anyone else.

As usual, JL brings everything out. He is right! I only spoke of Plan B and the NC in context of what it does to the WS.

But the main effect of Plan B and NC is really on the BS. It gets you out of the mix and allows you to heal, rest up and prepare for whatever is to come...either reconciliation or divorce.

So, all of these factors are in play here. When in Plan B, the BS should just concentrate on how it makes them feel (less anxious, calmer, not on the rollercoaster, etc) and not worry about the other effects, especially those on the WS.

As JL said, almost all A end. With or without help. Plan A and Plan B really are there to help the BS, and to help the WS when the A does end. It does so by giving them a path out of the mess they created. And it gives the BS the time and boundaries to build strength to recover their life, whether the WS is in it or not.

So, basically...Plan B and NC really have many effects here. But as a BS, the only real effects that we can see while the A is still ongoing is the re-establishing of control over our lives. What happens to the WS is secondary to that.

In His arms.

Sparkle -

I want to know more about the P.S. you suggested:

"Allow me to add one recommendation to MM's encouragement to send the Plan B letter: send the OW a copy; you can even put the P.S. on it that's recommended in Surviving An Affair. If you need the wording, let us know."

I also agree with:

"Given how upset she has become in the past, knowing that you love your H and will do anything to save your marriage will surely not make her happy or comfortable in the relationship."

It would challenge the lie he's told that I rejected him and supposedly wouldn't let him come home no matter what, that HE was the one who tried to save the marraige, his false claim that I had told him to 'get on with his life' so the affair is all my fault.

Also, he told me: "she's not the monster you think she is", claims she "cares about" our daughters, repeatedly told me "it's not her fault", and when he quoted her saying "You assured me your family was totally out of your life - I won't be second place" that supposedly translated to she was sending him home to his family (sounds more like she was giving him ultimatum to choose between her and his family, which was then further verified by her interfering and competing with visitation with his daughters). Anyway, I guess if there's any shred of truth to his claim of her being such a nice caring person who wouldn't want to break up a marriage/family, doesn't want to be "the other woman" according to my husband, then she would be bothered by finding out I still am willing to forgive him and work on restoring our marriage?

Also, what about mentioning how hurt and angry his daughters are? I'd prefer to stay completely out of their dispute with their father BUT I'm sure he's telling the I brainwashed them or I'm not allowing visitation fib again. IF she even KNOWS they are refusing to see him... HMMMM He did stay at his apartment instead of hers Wednesday night - usual visitation night but kids refused to go. And he just showed up at daughter's rink Sunday anyway. Maybe he's keeping it a secret that his daughters have said they can't accept him being with other woman? He's apparently not going to be with her instead when his daughters reject visitation! Maybe if she knew what was going on she would break up with him for good?

BUT - I am scared she will call the police if I contact her. She did just because I called her, claiming it was harrassment. Seems to me if she really wanted to know the truth, really didn't want to break up a marriage then she wouldn't have hung up on me and called the police. For that matter she could have contacted me to check out husband's story before she decided to sleep with him.

My guess is she really doesn't give a fig about breaking up a marriage/family, doesn't have a shred of concern for his daughters BUT wants to present herself as being a sweet lady in his eyes. Maybe she is just worried what my husband and other people will think of her if the truth is revealed? Her image in their eyes? She wants to be seen as the sweet innocent lady who rescued my husband from the horrible wife and daughters who cruelly rejected him - but NOT as "the other woman" who broke up a family. So that would explain her not wanting to be given any info, right? In that case, wouldn't it be more effective to expose my willingness to save marriage and the way my daughters feel to other people such as her family and their coworkers?

Frankly I'm afraid to make any calls to try to find out who her relatives are; what if they call the police on me for calling them? Should I do one of those online investigations to find out her parents' names/address? But I would think people who care about her MUST be noticing the cracks in my husband's shining armor and story by now. I'm, curious how he can explain how his kids were supposedly brainwashed, then unbrainwashed, then brainwashed again? He would HAVE to keep it a secret they are refusing to see him anymore, right?

Their is a coworker whose daughter skates at one of the rinks. I'd only met her a few times. But LOTS of my friends skate there and I'm sure she's hearing something about what's really going on. (Most of the moms don't skate - they sit in the bleachers and gossip away all those hours). We haven't been skating at that rink lately but there is an on-ice-artistry class one of my daughters and I want to try there...

So maybe I could just sit back and let the rink rumors, doubts of her friends and loved ones, and the flaws in my husband's fibs do their work?

Apologies to MortarMan:

I STILL haven't sent the Plan B letter.
We didn't get home from rink last night until very late, my hands were numb with the cold (from the rink and because if I try to use car heater smoke comes out of dash) and for some reason when I drive too much at night I get horribly car sick (think it's a side effect of one of my hypertension medicines). So I went right to bed.

And now I want to know about the P.S. that Sparkle mentioned.

Also, I was wondering if maybe I should go to the marriage counseling session on Saturday and give my husband the letter then? I know that would violate the no contact but I KNOW it would be VERY EFFECTIVE to have the marriage counselor as a witness. I'm quite certain if I just send a letter to my husband and nobody else, he will just ignore it and pretend it never happened, sticking to his I rejected him lie (while expecting me to continue to see him in secret).
My husband is inordinately concerned about how others see him and wants desperately for others to believe he is not the slightest bit responsible for our break-up or even his affair. So other people knowing about the letter would be a good idea. That's why he got so angry when I did talk to the other woman, his family, and a couple of coworkers. I don't care if he gets angry but I don't want the police being called on me.

Ice,

Here is the Plan B letter I sent to my wife, and also sent to OM. Modify to your situation.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My wife Mrs. Mortarman,

This is a difficult letter for me to write…one that I have been mentally working on for days now. I have written this letter with the true love that only a husband can have for a wife. Please read every word I have written…it is from the heart.

I would like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the loss of our marriage. I neglected your needs and failed to give you what you needed many times. I'm sure this helped create a voice in our marriage that allowed your affair to happen. But believe me, whenever you hurt, so do I. Although I have always loved you with my heart and soul, I made you feel that everything was more important to me than you. It NEVER was the case, but that is how I made you feel, and for that Mrs. Mortarman, I am so very sorry. I have said this before, and I want to say it again: I want to do whatever I can to put our marriage back together in a mutually satisfying way. I feel I have been learning ways to again be the type of man I hope you would be proud to call your husband, as I have so many times felt much pride in calling you my wife. I so want to put the past behind us, and build a better life together…for us and our family.

While I accept responsibility for my part in the fall of our marriage, I will no longer accept responsibility for your part. I think you need to take this time to face your demons, as I have faced mine, and figure out what you want. I can't control what you do, nor will I try to change you anymore. I have realized that I can't do that and I accept that. I'm sorry if I hurt you because of it. I realize I have to take care of me now. I can only control me and change myself.

The past 10 months have been difficult for me…the most emotionally traumatic in my life. We seemed to start recovery, only to slip and fall again. I am still feeling the hurt and pain when I don't know where you are or who you are with. We have somehow misplaced our foundation of trust and respect, love and friendship.

The direction that I must go now is not one of choice, but of necessity. In the past I endured hurt and pain. I now see it only drains my love for you. Added to this fact, the choices you have made since you started this affair continue to be poor ones, and have adversely affected all of us. Our children are now suffering emotionally, as well as financially, because of these choices. Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you (except regarding the family) and I will avoid seeing you. This is not to punish you…it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there will be nothing left of this incredible love I have for you. And I cannot bear to think that I would ever not love you.

Since it is you that wants to leave, I ask that you please respect my decision to separate in this way. If you need to contact me, please do so through email (XXXXXX@XXXXXX.com) or leave a message at (###) ###-####. Any emergency involving the kids, or yourself, you can of course contact me directly and immediately.

Since January, I have been trying to give you hope for our marriage by learning how to be a better husband to you. Mrs. Mortarman, as you know, I am still willing to do whatever it takes to correct the mistakes that we have made in the past and make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. It simply cannot happen until your relationship with OM ends. I want us to work together, and create our new marriage together. God wants this also. I want you to know that no matter how bad the past was, no matter how ugly, we can get past it. It is fixable. God made you in your mother’s womb for me, just as I was made for you. With God's help, our true healing can begin. God has promised us this marriage and promised us reconciliation. You only have to have faith and to give Him a chance. You asked several weeks ago for a miracle or sign from Him. It WILL come, but will require you stepping forward on faith first. Look inside yourself and find the strength we will need to do this.

I understand how difficult this all is for you. I will make every effort to provide you with comfort and support, should you want to try to save our marriage. With a competent counselor and a little time, I am sure that we will be able to find what we are looking for and what has been missing.

I do not want this divorce. I want to be your husband, in every sense of the word. I want to hold you again, talk with you, laugh with you and even cry with you. I want us to continue to share in the joy that we have had in raising those three awesome kids. I want to grow old with you. As much as I want all of this, you have made it clear that you don’t want these things, and as long as you feel this way, I cannot be a part of your life…it is simply too painful. As always, I will continue to be the best father I can be to our three children and do whatever is necessary to insure their happiness through all of this.

You are the only person I have allowed myself to love so deeply. I loved you more than life itself when God brought us together, and I continue to do so as I write this. Perhaps even more! I have spent my whole life loving you, Mrs. Mortarman. The first 29 years I spent looking for you and the last almost 10 years, I have loved you as your husband. We may have had our problems, but we also created 8 years of history. Eight years of love, of family life, of memories. Good memories. What is needed now is for you to recognize that, to recognize that we can make this a new marriage, one with all of the promise of the past, as well as a future free from the problems you and I have created. One where we are a family again, both for you and I, and for our children. And once we do that, our love will come back again, stronger than we have ever known or thought possible.

I cannot imagine a life without you, without hearing your voice, without being there for you when you need me, without our family. But I know that for my love for you to survive and have a possibility to be there when you call me and say that you want to come home (YOUR home!), then I must protect that love at all costs.

Mrs. Mortarman, I do not know what the future holds for us…that is in God’s hands. I know that I want to grow old with you. When I said “I DO,” I made a promise in front of God, you, our families and friends for life. Through better or worse.

Our marriage, our life, our family is now in God’s hands. I will love you always!

Love,
Your husband and the ONLY man truly in love with you,
Mortarman

OM…I love Mrs. Mortarman with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I will wait for her to give me that chance. Her three children and I wait for her return home, where she belongs.<hr /></blockquote>

Just a thought: Icedancer, why don't you start your own thread? Shugah's getting a bit buried here!

Thanks for posting your Plan B letter MortarMan.
And I see what the P.S. that Sparkle mentioned is now too (to the other person).

"Just a thought: Icedancer, why don't you start your own thread? Shugah's getting a bit buried here!"

Sorry. I originally posted in this thread about the question Shugah asked - something I was really worried about myself. I do have some thoughts for Shugah (and others) on that topic, how I had been trying to deal with that fear. I got the part about protecting myself from getting so hurt and angry that I wouldn't ever want to forgive him - told him I was sorry but I just couldn't endure it anymore as things were. It was just so scary thinking of them having all the time to spend together and him not spending any time with me then for Plan B. The only thing I could think of to cheer myself up was hoping he would act quiet or moody, missing me or feeling guilty, or at least bummed he wasn't eating cake anymore. So I was hoping she would react negatively to that instead of being caring or supportive. I was hoping he would maybe resent her somehow or she would fail to show proper appreciation for what he had to give up to choose her? I mean it would be a lot of pressure on her to cheer him up and make sure they had enough fun to be worth the pain and fear he'd be feeling.

That's really all I could think of and am SO glad MortarMan and the others gave such great responses to Shugah's concern.

I'll go back to my thread under Plan A/Plan B now and continue to wait for further responses there.

Oh, why not start a thread here, too, since we've all gotten to know you?

Didn't mean to chase you off GQ, just to attract more responses for both of you!

I need advice...
As I have noted earlier, change in attitude of WH, of course hard to decifer motive, but improvement nonetheless.
He probably recieved a letter from me yesterday or the day before. It was as follows:
These are things that are sometimes taken for granted but once gone will forever be some of the things I will cherish the most. They may be simple things and may not seem worth anything to you but to me they are the memories that make my life rich beyond description. I only wish it had been enough for you.

D, fresh from a bath, with her hair combed and wet and smelling sweet, watching the birds at the feeder in her underwear and tee-shirt.

S#2 calling me from work, to tell me when he’s getting out and what his plans are and asking if there’s anything I need.

A teacher stopping me in the hallway to tell me how well S#2 is doing in Honors Math and what a good kid he is.

S#3 still wanting to cuddle on the sofa with me under an afghan to watch tv.

Hearing other parents on the sidelines commenting on S#3's speed, bunting talent, etc.

Camping.

Catching D at the keyboard, belting out a made up song, thinking no one was listening!

Watching S#3 run track!

D waking up every morning and saying, “It’s a beautiful day!”

A wood-stove fire on a cold and windy day.

A pot of coffee & the paper on a Sunday morning.

A pot of coffee & the paper and a wood-stove fire on a cold and windy Sunday morning!

Add your omelets!

Add family!

S#2 & I sealing the foundation with S#1 looking on with his foot in a cast.

Collecting stones for the chimney.

Memorial Day Weekend, a Kubota, all of us working together…

Watching the fox in the yard from the window with D.

D running up the stairs, yelling, “Dog and me just saw a deer in the yard!”

Watching deer, turkey's...

Canoe, Cobscook Bay, toddlers, “what were we thinking?”

Watching S#1 play hockey, ref hockey, Babe Ruth, and Softball and thinking he could be a farmer!

S#1's first deer hanging from the oak tree.

Seeing 19 yr old S#1 pick up 4 yr. old D and give her a big kiss, and marveling that I have kids that are that old and that young, and how funny it is to see them together.

D running into my arms every afternoon when I pick her up at Day-Care.

BATS!

Watching S#2 comfort D when she is crying.

S#2, S#3 and myself all running to get out the door at the same time when D started screaming outside because she got stung by a bee!

Making cookies with the kids, carving pumpkins, gingerbread houses...

Hockey, hockey, hockey…

Adding Sponge-Bob Square Pants and the Simpson’s to a long list of the kid’s favorite tv shows, McGiver, Rescue 911, and what was that goofy one, you know the one where the mannequin comes to life at night in the department store? And let’s not forget, countless viewings of “Mighty Ducks” and “Lion King”!

D coming to the door with a bunch of dandelions, saying, “these are for you”.

Watching D make her own waffle or chocolate milk!

D handing me a paper full of A’s that I didn’t even know she could write yet!

D asking me, “do dreams mean something?”

Hearing D yell, “It’s snowing!”

Christmas Morning!!

S#2's first kitten!

S#2 at age 11, & Dog at the Natural Ability Testing!

D singing in the back seat, “Take Me Out to the Ballgame”, or “Angel flying too close to the Ground” and requesting that “Bonnie Raitt CD”!!

The first time we saw each other when you came back from Michigan, we met at the gas station, we were inseparable the whole weekend, you could hardly stand to leave again and it killed me to see you go…

Cedar Point!

Reading a bed-time story to D every night.

Letting the kids be late for school because we were trying to identify a large strange bird in the yard.

Playing cards and scrabble with S#3.

D catching frogs and grasshoppers in the backyard.

Watching our backyard come to life every spring!

Making love on a Friday afternoon while the kids were at school.

You and I sneaking off for a “nap”.

“Interesting activities” in the car while you & I were driving on road trips!

Finishing each others sentences.

4th of July in "hometown", everything about it, even getting rained out camping! The boys and their lobster rolls from "Lobster Booth", the kid’s in the parades, S#2 on the greased pole, ferry rides to Canada, Bald Eagles.…..

S#3 and I waiting for you at the end of the driveway to come home from work and him sitting on your lap to drive up the driveway.

D just now, saying, “I have a halloween song for you…the itsy bitsy halloween spider went up the halloween spout, down came the halloween rain and washed the halloween spider out….”

Driving up the driveway and seeing our beautiful home come into sight!! It thrills me every time!

Seeing you drive up the driveway whether it was every day after work, or on the weekends or even now when you’re here just to see the kids and not me, it thrills me every time.

I hope you are happy and have everything you ever wanted from life. I am just sorry that our life together was not enough for you, not exciting enough, and that we never had the chance to work out what ever it was that needed to be done to keep us all together. You are missed more than you will ever know. I’ll treasure all of these memories for both of us and continue enjoying the little things in life that truly make it all worthwhile. I wouldn’t trade it in for anything! Your family and home are still here for you, it may seem like all the bridges have been burned, but if somehting is truly worth fighting for, nothing is impossible. Don't let pride and guilt and hurt stop you from coming home to us. There's enough guilt and blame to go around. It doesn't matter how this roller-coaster ride started, let's stop it together.
Love,me

WH called last night, asked how the kids were doing. I said they were all here watching TV, including 19 yr.old S who just moved back home today!(and it felt soo good to have all my kids together!) WH said "well, I guess there's no place like home", I said, yeah, for most people.
The rest of the call was pleasant, I told him about my winning a Kayak raffle, yeah, I was psyched, he sounded pleased...
Here's where I need some advice....
MIL will be visiting her sister at her home on tues.which is somewhat midpoint between WH and I. WH wants to visit her there with the kids. Asked if I could meet him somewhere with the kids so he'd only have to drive them home after, or if I wanted to visit also, I was welcome also, because he was sure everyone would want to see me too.
(Of course the latter would mean he wouldn't have to drive the kids all the way home...)
Will visiting MIL with the family be too much of a "Fix" for WH, or would it be an opportunity to be together as a family, which may be timely, or if I stay away, will it force WH to experience one more time what it is like to be without me there. I get along "Great" with his family, aunts, cousins, etc. We've visited there many times as a family. I would be comfortable going there and showing all that I'm still the same great person I've always been, HUH! This same group of relatives gave WH a very hard time when he visited alone in July, about the A and separation.
What do you think about the letter and the visit....?

"Bump"

a friendly bump, because I'm curious what the others will say.

shameless bump!

Hi girl , I know you are waiting on someone with really good insite . But before I post my last thread on MB I wanted to respond to you , since I was one of the first to do so since you came here . First this response may have NOTHING to DO with MB princepals at all JMVHO !

I thought your letter was wonderful and I don't care that you are supposed to be in PLAN B LOL

It made me cry at every moment and your H would be some selfish brain dead A$$ to not have any feeling of that (FOG OR NOT )

I do think you should take the kids there to meet , I think you should get there at the same time outside . I think you should explain (very fast ) that you are not staying . You are stopping in and saying HI to all very fast and need to go . If asked why , a brief explanation of ---- H I realized while writing you that letter that your life has changed and does not include me , as much as I would want it to I can't be around an inverment that shows us as a family when that is not my reality that I need to face now , it simpley hurts to much .

maybe in time I will be use to it , although I dought it I will have to try if that is your desire to never be together again .

Then give a hug and go inside and kiss all and leave say you can't stay just dropping kids off for H and will catch up to them soon .

That is JMVHO .

If the WS if coming out of fog (IMO) then I think it just helps them to see the sad reality that they have convinced the BS that its time to move on by there request . You showed and told the way back now you show the reality that you are sad by it but by his REQUEST you need to move on from it , but you are human and it will take time to be in that type of setting .

I don't belive in the total avoiding thing , I think they need that glimpse of the BS once in awhile for the sadness and for the memories .

All again JMVHO , I wish you all the luck in the world . If your H should come to his senses and want to restore your M with you I wish you all the love in the world to come out of this with a new and healthier M .

If you are to go on with out him , I wish you the same , a life filed with a new inner growth and much love to your children always keeping in mind that you are worth all that is good and so are they . I am so happy for you that your OLDER found his way BACK ! See the path you left for him , he did choose to follow . Tough love works sometimes . BE well .

3,
Thanks for your reply. I have some catching up to do, what's this about your last post to MB?
I'll check out your thread.
I really like your suggestion, I may do exactly that!!
I hope all is well with you, Recovery? Still Ok?
Thanks again, your friendship here has been a godsend! Hope you'll stick around.

I ended up meeting WH halfway to drop off D, she was the only one who went. 12yr.old S did not want to go! No Surprise there.
I had very little to say at drop off, or when he arrived at the house to bring her home last night. He said, "I think she is happy to be home", and he said it more than once.
All the boys were home, woodstove going, spaghetti sauce cooking, dog greets him enthusiastically, boys don't even get up. He went in and said hi to them, and then it was, well, see ya. I said, see ya. and that was it.

What goes through his head at times like this? He's leaving his family, facing a 3 hr. lng ride back, alone, to what? A lonely bachelor apt.
Is she that good, that we were worth the trade?
Was there really nothing good enough in me to love that his only option was to leave? When I start to go there, it really brings me down. With the holidays approaching, and struggling financially on top of it, I really find myself on a down slide of emotions.
I really have to work hard at facing each day with a good attitude, it is a struggle.

Shugah - I know it's hard for you, and it's even harder on him. Remember, he's NOT your problem right now. Whatever's going through his head is HIS to deal with. What's yours to deal with is your family and keeping them strong.

And why, by the way, is he allowed into the house? He can see your daughter to the door from the street, can't he? Remember, Plan B is about YOU and YOUR PROTECTION. Create a safe space for yourself.

Hi Shugah:

It depends where you are now about your marriage. But I'll throw in that it was important for my FWH not to see me during my short period of a strict PLAN B. You guys remember how I failed. But he tells me now how he missed seeing me regardless of how much he did not want to miss me. He missed me especially when he was held captive with her. He remembered me that I was during my PLAN A. So you might want to think about him having to miss out getting a taste of the comforts of home. Just that brief period of time in your house might enable him in continuing his A. He knows that his home is still there waiting for him and he can think about that setting to relieve him when he is feeling pained about being with her. JUST A THOUGHT!!

REMEMBER. GO DARK????

I for one and I may be standing alone LOL , thinks its great that he got the glimpse in the door ........Fire going, kids all together, smell of the sauce on a SUNDAY ,,,,,,,,

Would have sent my FWS home crying in the car (and it did on several times )

I think that peek of the good old FAMILY life is the dose he needs to keep him thinking in that state of mind . Questioning his choice getting ready to come out of fog , confusing himself more ,, thinking about the way back .

JUST a glimpse every so often not all the time and NEVER to sit in it to have it unless he wants it all . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You stay the course do not CALL at all now . NOT at all .

He will be seeing what he lost , it just can't get to the point of fighting thats when he won't see it that way .. calm , and cool , as life is going on and his family is together but he is not included .

Don't want to sound like get your hopes up , I just think the DRAMA of all the stuff had to calm down in order for him to start seeing anything .

The calmer I was the closer me and my kids became the more I went on as a family right in front of him the WIDER the eyes opened the more scared he got that he better get back before the DOOR closed forever .

"TIME" is a powerful thing and a Powerful word with so much meaning . It makes all the difference on both ends . BTW what about that new "FREIND" you mentioned some time ago?

Just J, Mimi and 3,
I've been around, sorry the late response back.
All good points about Plan B, it's obvious that I have not been in a good PB for sometime.
After the intense drama of the Protection Order, I just felt that some things needed to be turned around and a calmer attitude was necessary as it would only affect the kids more. Communication with WH seemed to improve and all evidence of the extreme anger and frustration has dissipated. It was not Plan B. It was more like a Plan C=Calm things down.
However, I also began to read more into the attitude change of WH than was actually there and slightly let my hopes rise.
R talk would occur at times, and he would say, "I don't think it would work if I came home". I see that better than "there is no way I would ever come home", as I saw it as a sign that he thinks about it, but certainly it is nothing major.
Finally last night, I stopped by his apt. on my home from short home state visit. We talked at the kitchen table for over an hour. Basically, he said this, "if I were to give up this A and came home and we didn't make it, then I would have nothing". My response, you're right, but if you fight for your family, you might win it back, and if you don't fight for it, you will eventually end up with nothing anyways.
He said, "I know the door is still open..."
This of course, the downside of not doing a good Plan B, he KNOWS, I want him and I have not moved on....
So I said, well, WH, that's really why I'm here, I need to close that door now, I can't go on like this, I have options and I'd like to explore them, I just don't want either of us to have any regrets...I need to know that I let you know how I feel one more time, before I begin to shut down my love for you...
Of course most of this was emotional at times, and frustrating, as WH is not so good at communicating his feelings....
He called this morning to see if I made it home OK....really if that was why he called, he should have done it last night, so why the call?
See, how I try to read into things....?
Anyways, there is a "friend", it is what it is, entertainment purposes only, as I say...can't say it hasn't helped with my self-esteem, but there are many reasons why it could never be a relationship...for one, I will NOT introduce anyone to my kids for a very long time if ever....
I love my H, but it's been 11 mos.now...I need to start to heal and give myself permission to move forward without him. I also believe that a modified, aloof Plan B is what I need to do that...
The holidays will be tough, all triggers, when things started to crumble last year and then D-day 3 days before xmas. It will send a clear message if WH tries to participate on our turf and he is not welcomed...but it will be hard.
Thanks, guys for your support...I still need it, although my postings have slowed...

Shugah,

I am SO glad to see you posting. I have really been thinking about you.

I am glad you still have the entertainment in your life...self esteem is so important to a BS at this time. Glad you are keeping it in perspective.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Basically, he said this, "if I were to give up this A and came home and we didn't make it, then I would have nothing". My response, you're right, but if you fight for your family, you might win it back, and if you don't fight for it, you will eventually end up with nothing anyways. <hr /></blockquote>This, from what I read and hear, is a common conern from a WS. Scared to death that they will be alone. Liked your comeback, except that he doesn't see the logic of your telling him that eventually he will end up with nothing. He doesn't know the statistics, and if he ever read them, Oh My, they would not apply to him and OW, because they are so "special."

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I need to close that door now, I can't go on like this, I have options and I'd like to explore them, I just don't want either of us to have any regrets...I need to know that I let you know how I feel one more time, before I begin to shut down my love for you... <hr /></blockquote>Some might call this emotional blackmail. I think you did a good thing. As long as your Plan B has not been truly enforced and you had the opportunity to talk to him, you might as well say these things. My only concern: he won't "hear" what you are saying because the fog has penetrated his ears as well.

Have missed you. Glad to see you posting again.

*S*

Thanks *S*,

You know, I think he does hear it...the fog just makes it longer for him to process it...

And yeah, I agree that some may think "emotional blackmail", but it is how I feel, and I want to be honest about where I'm coming from.

I don't want him to see me as some pathetic woman who thinks if I can't have him, I'll never get anyone ever again...a certain look seemed to come over his face when I mentioned "options".
He also was trying to avoid getting me "upset". I said "Wh, I've spent the last 11 mos. getting emotional, it hasn't killed me, and I always bounce back, I'm not afraid of it anymore..."
I also hinted that there are things I do too to have "a good time" and I'm not curled up in a fetal position crying over you...
But Basically, my message was this... I love you, I built a life with you, I now have to finish alone what we started together, and there is nothing fair about that, and that our family deserves more than this...and that the hard work it would take would be worth it.
But of course, in the time it takes him to "process" all of this...well, I'll probably be one withered up old woman, LOL!
So what's done is done...
just had a little chat online with "friend", life sure is full of surprises! My oh My!!

Shugah,

Somewhere...on one of the many threads on this board, I read a few FWS's say that the thing that snapped them out of the fog and back to their marriage was believing that their spouse had moved on and might even have someone else.

So...maybe talking about the options did get his attention. Might be a good thing.

We'll see.

*S*

Hi , I think you handled yourself great , nothing beats honesty . Reading that reminded me of me BEFORE MB . When FWS was out and I was done , just started getting the looks from Oppisate sex again and was asked to date , I didn't but FWS only had to know that oppertunity was knocking and I was starting to explore the "OPTIONS"

Yes it takes longer to process , and also keep in mind that OW is Divorcing (am I right?)

So there is a BIG GUILT issue going on for him .

Although unfair if he is starting to rethink comeing home , that guilt will play a part for him . That he goes back to his M and she is alone .

But I would now lock in to a PLAN B , and try to keep convo to KIDS and keep things calm and respectful.

The rest is up to him , I think its fair to say YOU hae expressed your feelings and let him know ,now its truely time FOR YOU .

Do not waste another moment in sadness , Jump in to the holidays with a new spirt , NEW start .

BAKE some cookies with the kids and go out on the weekends and live it up !!! GET that family of yours involved in babysitting and GO GO GO .

All the best , if he wants back in he will find the way .

3is...
If I've got it correctly, OW was already separated when WH met her...I would hope "guilt" on his part would not come in to play, it didn;t stop him from leaving Us!!

16 yr. S has been sick for several days, took him to Dr. today, pneumonia, 2nd child in 3 weeks!
So I stop to get prescription, end up paying full price $55. because pharmacy says our insurance has been canceled. Now I know it is just a paper work mistake, as WH IS working and this has happened before....but still frustrating. I pay the price and figure I'll get reimbursed as soon as it's straightened out.
So I'm frustrated and tired, get home and call WH to tell him and we get into a big thing about expenses again. He sounds very depressed and at wits end about the whole financial picture.
I tell him that the rat race sucks, but if you grab hold of the things that really matter in life, your childrens smiles and laughter and love, ON A DAILY BASIS, it makes it all worth while. I said all you are doing is working and sending the support and getting none of the rewards that should come with the daily grind....
He says something like, "maybe I'll just disappear", very sad sounding...
Now, part of me wanted to say, go ahead, who needs you, make sure your life insurance is paid up, you worthless....
BUT, I became overwhelmed and cying, said, "don't you disappear on me..."
He's near the bottom now...his fall has been long and slow...when will he finally crash...?
I feel the only hope for him, for us, is for him to crash and burn....and then slowly out of the ashes we can rebuild.
Will it happen soon enough?

Wondering the same thing in my own life, Shugah. I think the trick is -- don't rush in with a supply of bandaids when surgery is needed. It only slows the whole thing down.

bump

I don't have much time to post right now.

I wish Mortarman was around to share with you.

Please consider doing a strict PLAN B. It really was key the short time that I did it in my situation.

It made the OW have to meet all of his needs. She failed miserably.

It made him miss me after I did my Plan A. He said on the weekends he started missing me on Saturday evenings after having to spend such long periods of undivided time with her.

Surprisingly to me SHUGAH which might also be important in your case, he said he missed having a FAMILY. He even tried to make a FAMILY with the OW, wanting to act like a legitimate husband and father to her daughter. The OW wanted to keep their relationship narcissistic, isolated and freaky. That was a major LB with her. Seems like it may be important for him to MISS the family atmosphere but if he still gets it he will hang on to the OW. Make sense?

Also, this last time he did not go back to her because he did not want to experience my PLAN B again. He knew that I would not put up with the cake-eating.

All of these factors were extremely important in my case.

I swear to you my husband is in love with me again. He calls me constantly, he sends me flowers, he shines my shoes each morning and brings me coffee. He pulls me to him and holds me during the night.

He cannot get enough of me!

I wish this for you. My situation was awful at this time one year ago. I felt like my H hated me. He looked at me with disgust. He acted as if he did not want to be in the same room with me. He could not wait to be with her.

Try PLAN B. The MB principles have really worked for me.

Mimi,
I am so very happy for you!
I know that the MB stuff works, I guess I just figure that WH is far enough away from us, spends so little time with the kids, etc., that if he doesn't miss us by now, then what's the point?
From the depressed sound of him, I don't think that the OW is completely meeting his needs anymore, but I have no real way of knowing that.
I believe he feels himself in a hole from which there is no way out. I am scared for him.
But I won't go to his rescue, I know that it will do no good. There is nothing I can do for him anyways.
I only call him when it's necessary, and I'm backing off any chit chat when he comes to see the kids. I think the holidays will probably have some impact on him.
But time will tell, for now I just keep moving forward...trying to take care of me and kids.

Just stay focused on you and the kids, Shugah. If he wants to return to it, he's welcome, but only after he's understood that OW isn't welcome in your family. I know it's hard to watch, and I know you're scared for him. It's right to be scared for someone, but maybe not for the reasons you're thinking.

It's right to be scared, because maybe he WON'T grow enough to make it back to you.

It won't hurt you any -- you've grown strong and capable through all this -- but it'll hurt him.

You cannot fix that for him, though. He's just got to do it himself. Pray that he can, and pray that you have compassion for him afterwards, because he's going to be hurting from all the growing pains. There's a lot to be left behind in this process for both of you.

Got through Thanksgiving ok. The kids and I spent the holiday at friends house. Not sure what WH did, I didn't ask.
I have been in contact with him here and there and want to believe that I am still seeing signs of the fog lifting. Realizing of course, that he still has a ways to go.
Recent comments by WH include:
"Yes, I think about coming home all the time....but it's not as easy as A, B, C."
"I miss the kids, the house, your cooking, you yelling at me ( he said this part laughingly)"
And then several comments regarding the house and property, he still refers to "we" and "us"? "We'll need to this", "We're being surrounded by the "jones", etc. Habit maybe?
He has been sounding VERY discouraged and depressed about finances. He sincerely sounds bummed about the lack of money for Birthdays, and Christmas.
In one conversation he sounded so bad, he even said, "maybe I'll just disappear".
I think the fact that Christmas will happen here without him, will have some impact. There have already been comments from 4 yr old D to WH about some of our traditions, and it is obvious that it bothers him that I will now be taking over the things that he traditionally did.
He sounds more sensitive and responsive in our discussions and a lot less defensive and angry, although it still happens here and there.
Obviously I have backed off Plan B. I feel that this is the closest I've come to hearing the disillusion and confusion and I'm going to continue with this direction as long as I am still seeing that. I believe that he now needs to see that I am not the "*****" and that I am somewhat "understanding" about the whole situation and start showing him the way home. Does that make sense?
There seems to be some giving and taking going on, and I believe he is seeing that I continue to be strong and his best option for a secure and fullfilling life. It's like he's seeing that together we can work through anything, but apart he is nowhere. At least I think he may be seeing that.
Of course with Fog it's impossible to know what's real and what's wishful thinking?
Continued issues with 12 yr. old S, out of character behavior issues, he is seeing a counselor now, but still hard for such a quiet kid. WH refuses (outwardly anyways) to accept any responsibility for his son's change in behavior, he believes it has more to do with his age then his abandonment. I have been an active part of the counseling and I believe that if WH ever becomes involved (especially if reconciliation occurs), it will be most beneficial for WH! It is obvious that communication issues are prevalent for all of us.
Anyways, I continue to plunge ahead with Christmas preparations, albeit it limited and frustrating due to lack of money. I force the smile, and dance to the Christmas music but all with a heavy(yet still hopeful) heart.
I try my best to enjoy the little things. D's excitement at seeing Santa come into town on a firetruck, watching Charlie Brown's Christmas with the kids, baking cookies and the fascination with our first snowfall of the year, and a significant one at that. Here in the NE, we've got over 2 ft. and it's still coming down!!
Hope all is well with everyone, I lurk but am not posting much but I still think of everyone.

Oh, Shugah.

I just want to give you a big ole MB {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I have been following your thread, and see your struggles. You are lonely and hurting. Your children are lonely and hurting. Your WH is hurting. And the holidays here.....it's all so sad, isn't it?

What to do?

If you have not done so, please research and READ ALL OF MIMI's thread!!! Her H was exactly where yours is!!! It's true. He was truly miserable, lonely, scared, confused. I can see from what you wrote that yours is too.

Please STAY DARK now. He needs to figure this all out himself. IF you give in, and come to his rescue, it will only be a band-aid on his cancer.

PLEASE read Mimi's thread,(Again, since I'm sure you've read it before), especially MM's answers to her. She wanted to "rescue" her WH too! He was unhappy, and she knew it. BUT, it was important that he learn what was needed before she was willing to work with him. So is your H. He needs to KNOW that OW must be gone before you will "engage" him in talks of future.

Make sure you reiterate this to him often and uncompromisingly. Become a broken record. Make him believe YOU MEAN THIS. Otherwise, NO COMPROMISE. It's the MB way, and it works!!! It's the only way.

God Bless, and I'm praying he'll make this discovery for himself and make the right choice soon. But remember this: Even if he doesn't make this decision before Christmas, don't despair. Wouldn't you rather have ONE miserable Christmas in order to ensure that the rest of them would be more wonderful than you can imagine?

Stay the course. Stay dark. You're doing good!

I do realize the importance of WH figuring it out and finding his way back on his own.
Yet I still can't help think that he truly believes that it is an impossible task.
Having been here at MB for over 10 months I know better! How will he ever know that too?
I am not completely dark, but remain extremely vague and distant, only occassionally reaching out to let him know that it is possible!
I pray that what I see is not just wishful thinking on my part but truly a slow lifting of the fog. There is still a long ways to go and then the work begins. I hope we get that chance.

Bump

Shugah,

I can give testimony to the fact that coming home is possible after a Modified Plan B. My FWH tells me that it was important for him to feel like I was not giving up on him and the marriage. He really wanted his family back more than anything at first. It was the family thing more than me.

He also has told me that he had a definite plan to start over again with the family thing with the OW. He even tried to do this. It hurts to know that but I'm just letting you know that coming home is possible. She failed on being able to make a family atmosphere for him. I'm remembering your baking. Maybe making it homey when he comes around but you being absent. You might need to strategize. I think you might need a war strategy as Mortarman would say.

Think about what is making your WH think that coming home would not be possible. What would make hime think that it is possible?

I'm remembering a call from my FWH when he asked me "What about us?" and I remember Steve Harley telling me to make it simple, to repeat to him "Get rid of her".

Update & is it significant?
Last night I returned phone call to WH to give him S's game time for todays visit.

I asked him if he read the last thing I gave him just after thanksgiving. It was a letter from "trueheart" (I think) a letter from a WS to another in hopes of getting through.

WH said, I started it but it was such small print, I didn't get far...

I said, you know it wasn't written by me, right?

WH, "Uh no,"

Isaid, "it's from someone who has had an affair and has returned home"

Wh, "Oh, ok, I'll read it"

I said, "There is a way to come home and make it work"

WH, "Are there any long term successes?"

Me, "yes, many"

Not much else for that call...

Then today's visit. I had him alone for a few minutes...I said "why don't you just come home?"
WH,"I don't think you could stand me"
Me, "you might not be able to stand me either, but we'd have to get used to being around each other again"
And then I said something about coming home before he had to pay another months rent (we've hit bottom financially), and he said, "oh you want fast action!"
I said, " a year isn't exactly fast action!"
Anyways, I said, all you have to do is dump her the way you dumped me...

All this time, he allowed me to be close to him, and I reached out and touched him several times, he was really looking into my eyes and making contact the whole time...he didn't try to rush away.
And then he said, "let me go"
I said, "let you go as in LET ME GO, or as in let me go to the mall with the kids"
WH, "let me go to the mall with the kids"

Other things were said as well, we talked about a few kids issues, & we laughed..

I really feel that he is coming out of the fog a bit. Because he doesn't talk like he used to, such as just refusing to read anything, especially after knowing what it is about...and not just saying "I'm not coming back", I'm not in love with you" and all the other things he used to say...He seems to be really considering coming home...

I'll back off for now. He's not getting an invitation to spend Christmas with us.

I just hope that what I am seeing is not just my wishful thinking...I really believe! Please pray for us, this is a far cry from what I've seen in months!

I'm allowing myself to get all worked up. I can't concentrate on any tasks, I flit from room to room....

I'm trying to process all that WH has been saying, I'm scared that it wont happen and scared that it will...

We talked on the phone again last night, he was on his way back to his place. He couldn't say too much because he had oldest S with him in the car, but the fact that he said as much as he did, is significant in my mind.
I asked if he was thinking about coming home...he said yes...then he asked, "before Christmas?"
Like he was asking my permission??
I said," that would be nice"
He called again this morning...he's taking S back to my Parents where he has beeen staying...and he said..."you want me to call you later?", I said, yeah, ok and he said, "Ok I'll call you later."

Yesterday, he said something about me "not being mean anymore", I think he viewed my attempts at Plan B, as being "mean".
He stood in our bedroom doorway just looking all around it, noticing for the first time that I had taken some photos of the kids off the wall(they were off a year ago!), it was just kind of weird...A step out of the fog...

D was upset last night that she didn't get anything at the mall, S got something for his birthday...WH acknowledged that he has probably spoiled her because he gets her something everytime he comes to visit....A step out of the fog...

He did show up with a pretty Christmas dress for her...

I had also asked if he had bought any presents for "anyone",(OW), and he said, "you know I wouldn't spend what little money I have on anyone else before my kids"... A step out of the fog...
I replied, well that is nice to know, because that hasn't always been the case this past year...He was quiet and didn't reply.

I really think, he is close to giving up on the A and coming home...I pray that is the case....I'm not sure I can handle coming this far only to be disappointed....

I know that many will recommend going dark again, I'm just not sure that it will accomplish anything at this point....but I will try to keep cool...he has to know that I am optimistic about our being able to recover, yet he needs to want that more than anything....I wish he had access to a computer, I would suggest he come here...

I need to settle myself down and not get ahead of myself or the process...it is just too soon to tell...

Advice anyone?

I'm really glad to see these small steps, Shugah!

I have only one piece of advice for you: Think hard about the things you need him to do before he can come home. Coming home is only the first step in a long process, and in a lot of ways it's the easiest one. The plan for recovery is really important, so as a first step, let your big bad Taker out of her box and let us all know what she wants from her husband. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just J,
That is a good excercise for me...a tough one.

I want a commitment to MC and possibly IC?

I want a NC Letter and committment to NC.

I want the cell phone gone. (he is on roam in our state anyways). Although a cell would be a good instrument for accountability?

That's a start....
For all I've learned and read over the past year, all of a sudden I come up blank...
Help me...

*chuckle*

I know how you feel, Shugah! I'd have a hard time with this exercise, too. Maybe you should put a piece of paper or two aside and scirbble ideas on it over the next couple of days when they hit you, and then post 'em all at once? Or, heck, just post whenever another one hits you!

Well, just me being a stupid idiot again!!

WH did call me like he said he would. That in itself was a surprise.
But he claims he "can't come home", he doesn't think it would work, and it would mean he would give up one relationship only to have ours fail..

I'm just so tired. Tired of trying. Tired of hanging in there. Tired of doing all the child rearing. Tired of loving him. Tired.

He just wants me to be his friend. I told him, I"m not interested in being your friend. He interprets that as meaning that I want to be his enemy. No, I just can't be around you, play the big happy family, when it's killing me inside. He thinks I should do it because it's "Best" for the children.

IF you are not here, there is nothing BEST for the children!!! Why do these WS think that everything will be just hunky dorey for their kids...if only the BS will play along!!

Like I said I'm tired. Got lots to think about.

Shugah: ...But he claims he "can't come home", he doesn't think it would work, and it would mean he would give up one relationship only to have ours fail.. 

Orchid: When I was given that line it used to send me into a panic spin. Then it happened enough times where I began to reply that the WS was right. Then I explained that as long as he continued as a WS instead of an H, it wouldnt work. The trick is to agree and put it back in their lap. RE: They try to make the BS feel guilty and I just wasn't in the mood for that trip.

Shugah: I'm just so tired. Tired of trying. Tired of hanging in there. Tired of doing all the child rearing. Tired of loving him. Tired.

Orchid: We undertand. That is why you need to keep posting here. TAke a breather from him. That's one of the benefits of plan B and contact is one of the pitfalls of plan A when you are tired. May not hurt to let him know you are tired.

Shugah: He just wants me to be his friend. I told him, I"m not interested in being your friend. He interprets that as meaning that I want to be his enemy. No, I just can't be around you, play the big happy family, when it's killing me inside. He thinks I should do it because it's "Best" for the children. 

Orchid: Your reaction is normal. As for his interpretation, don't agrue. Let him know if that is the best he can do, you will try to understand, you don't agree but you will try to understand that he is not able to what the rest of the world can see. Just like that.

Shugah: IF you are not here, there is nothing BEST for the children!!! Why do these WS think that everything will be just hunky dorey for their kids...if only the BS will play along!!

Orchid: Because they are in the fog.

Shugah: Like I said I'm tired. Got lots to think about. 

Orchid: I know. take a deep breathe..... let it out. Do it again but don't hyperventilate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

hugz,
L.

Shugah, I am so sorry for yet another dissappointment. I Really feel for you as, like me, you have been going through a rough Plan B.

I´m not any wiser than the rest of us and can just give you my opinion of what I think is happening.

When you had this phone discussion, where he asks to come home b4 xmas, I got the feeling that he was just testing the ice, to see if it was still whole. Meaning that he has had the "feeling" that you had let go and he had to test whether you really had - because IF you had, then he knows that he would have to do something about it, if he did not want to lose you.

I am not saying he is thinking or doing any of this consciously. I actually think it is unconsciously and he is just reacting according to how people react in situation like this á la the psychology books.

He doesn´t really feel like he is losing you or lost you, so he doesn´t really feel like he needs to snap out of it and do any of the work it takes to have you and his family back.

I wonder how he would have reacted if you, instead of saying "that would be nice" to his kind of question "before xmas", would have answered something like,

" I´m sorry, but you coming home before xmas is way too soon for me, because I don´t know whether I can handle you, I have gotten pretty comfortable handling everything on my own, and me and the kids enjoy our own special togetherness - I´m not sure I am willing to risk that anymore with the turbulence I know you can bring into my life."

I wonder whether that would have given him the impression of a strong woman with power and decisiveness, that was not willing to just bend over for anything, and then REALLY got him thinking if he was willing to lose you over this OW...

IMHO you gave in too easily. He needs to do the chase. And i promise you I understand you completely, and don´t judge you or the likes, I might have done the same - its SO TOUGH, doing it differently when you still want it. But Shugah, you´ve got to start giving him the impression you are not sure you want it anymore. And to be totally frank and honest with you, are you sure you do?. So give him the real signals, not just the "wanting the dream" signals. Let go, be a bit tougher and then watch him chase you and keep him on his toes. If he doesn´t do the chase, then dear Shugah, he probably never will, and then it will always be you doing all the work in your relationship. Considering what he has put you through, the hurt, the pain - can you live with that?

I´m hanging in there with you.

Queen

[ December 15, 2003, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]

I believe your WH is in that transition phase that MM was helping me with a few weeks before my WH came home.

The key is to give him the message that he can come home when and if he "GETS RID OF THE OW". Steve H. told me to repeat this in all my conversations with my WH. You don't give much in the conversations, mainly listen.

Also, my WH had to know that I would not BE HIS FRIEND. He asked me the same thing that yours did. That's the CAKE-EATING strategy. He has to know that you will GO DARK if he continues his relationship with her. He has moved from wanting only her, to wanting the both of you. He has to make a choice now.

Don't buy into his bull that PLAN B is being mean. He wants to continue to cake-eat. He's not ready to give her up. Give him the message that he has to give her up if he wants to have any sort of relationship with you.

Maybe try to go back and read my messages from MORTARMAN and the rest who helped me through this.

I think you are on the brink of a breakthrough. You need to handle this carefully!!

Thanks you guys for getting back to me, and for all your care and concern.
The kids and I are home with a "snowday" so I have lots of time to think and relax (until I have to shovel!). Maybe bake some Christmas cookies. I made gingerbread houses yesterday for them to decorate today.
I'm stressing over money too on top of everything. There is no money for gifts and I am behind on the mortgage and other bills. If the mortgage is not kept up during the bankruptcy period (another 6 weeks), I can lose it. I also have to surrender my car at the end of that period. WH of course knows all of this, but is still not paying the full support ordered by the court. (I'm sure his rent is paid though!) He has offered me his entire annuity in a D, but unfortunately that will not help me in the short run. I have a phone appt. with the lawyer this afternoon. I have no idea what I am going to do.
He seems concerned about it, but not enough to sacrifice his roof so that we can keep ours.

Last night he said he would call today, I said Why? He said to check on how the kids are doing. He never does that. He knows I was upset. I don't understand why he called me last night either. I know, I can't be reading into it!
He knows I'm tired, he said he "appreciates" that I have the hard part of raising the kids! I told him that 12 yr. old is a mess, that he is so needy and I cant meet all his needs and that I'm exhausted trying. (I really am!)
If he calls today I will let him know that I can't talk anymore, it just sets me back in my recovery. He also needs to know that he can't come here for Christmas eve or Day. He mentioned something about seeing the kids on Christmas Eve. Unless he's taking them out, and where is he going to be able to go on Christmas EVe??

I know I'll be percieved as the B**ch. Not doing what's BEST for the kids. OW doesn't have to do what's best for them, WH doesn't, but I DO? That is just so laughable!
Anyways, I stumble on, not sure what to do next, but always having something to do in the meantime! Christmas will happen, gifts or not. I'll find a way to work, car or not. And when the house is gone...well, something will come up.

Stay strong Shugah,

Concentrate on the little things - gingerbread houses is good, baking cookies is good, shoving snow is good, reading a book is good.

Believe that all the practical stuff will work out one way or another. Trust yourself. Trust LIFE!

Stay strong in trying your best to not be needy towards your WH, because that is exactly the thing that will get him running away from you, not towards you. Is it unfair? You are damn right it is unfair, but he is still in the fog, and if he is drowned with more problems than the ones he has already caused, he´s gonna want to go back into the fog again to get his fix of the "high".

You are the strong one here, even though you feel like you are being pulled down and you feel like you haven´t got any strength.

You deserve to be taken care of. You deserve to feel small and loved. But right now it just has to wait. It will come. It will.

Shugah, you are in my thoughts and in my prayers that there will be a way, and the stress of "losing the basics" will gradually diminish.

Queen

THanks Queen,
Well, I talked with lawyer yesterday. Apparantly if WH agrees to give me all of his annuity in a D settlement, I can actually access it quite soon. So as soon as bankruptcy is complete, another 6 weeks or so, we can move on this.
I will be able to save the house, get a car and maybe still put some away as a retirement fund, which is what it all should be, but I have to do what I have to for now.
WH & I talked last night, he said "this is the best way for me to take care of my family...we are out of options...you need a car..."
I told him that I asked the lawyer "what happens if I access this money and then we don't actually go through with the D?"
WH wanted to know what the answer to that was. ??????
I told him that I'm not convinced that this is what he wants (D), and again he said, we are out of options.
He told me that he had an incoming call that he had to take and that he would call me back. Of course it was OW.
I was livid!! By the time he called me back, I was sooo mad. " I told him that as if I haven't been disrespected enough, we are in the middle of discussing dissolving our M and you put me on hold to take a call from that f***n (C word, which I NEVER use!!)
Now usually if I get mad, he does too, but in this case, he was quiet and took it.
I said, "do you understand the amount of stress I am under right now, do you understand how that could get me so wound up?"
He seemed to understand.
I am going to move forward with this, as I really have no options financially.
But you know what? I think it's exactly what needs to happen...I don't think he wants a D...I think this will take the pressure off him financially somewhat...
I am not without hope.

Shugah,

I've been following your posts for quite sometime. I haven't been on as much since I'm recovering from surgery in Oct but I wanted you to know that I am praying for you and your H. There are times I have such hope for you guys then I yell at the monitor because I want to shake your H....

Thanks Purpleroses,
We can use all the prayers we can get!
I hope your recovery is coming along.
I still have hope, I just think that WH is stuck in the process, without the same hope of recovery that I have and thus he is just plain scared to take that chance.
It sure has been a rollercoaster ride, hasn't it?

Today is 3rd anniversary of D-Day #1.
At the time, I was so devastated, but it was clear that WH was ashamed and regretful over his 3-week A. He never considered leaving us and was more concerned that I might ask him to leave.
We never sought the help we should have, but we seemed to recover anyways...so I thought.
Then D-Day #2, Dec. 21 of last year. New OW, and WH decided to leave us for her.
Today, although I am not real emotional, I am very restless...as if I'm anticipating or wanting something to happen...
It all seems surreal...I still can't believe it ever happened.
Does anyone else feel this way around D-Days. It's not so much an overwhelming emotional thing, just this restlessness and inability to concentrate....

YEP, get that way often , more often then I should ,and the feeling of waiting for something to happen , thats normal . D-Day was a time something HAPPENED ( to say the least LOL )
so waiting for something to happen is like a flash back your thinking well this was a bad day then so of corse it will be bad again .

Thats what putting it in the past is about. Now I know thats not gonna happen cause you didn't get all the answers and your not in a M recovery.

So hang in there , The personal recovery with this is so much more important right now and for the future.

You know I have always followed along and I give my 2 cents . I have been reading along and much to my suprise I really think it would be good for you to go alittle DARK .

You have showed the way home , You told him what needs to be done , you reinforced that you will do the work with him and that you feel the M can be saved .

Thats it you can't hold his hand and go through anymore emotional torture then you already been through. Please do not USE all the strenght you have worked so hard to get on making things easy for WH .

I know that feeling of it feeling that its right there its at the fingure tips and if you can just get him to reach out and grab your hand you will hold him up .

This needs to be his MOVE HIS ALONE ! He has to discover this alone , realize what it will cost him . I agree with you that he may think PLAN B was your way of being a BITC* , I thought that way to I really did.

But for the recovery and for yourself recovery it is better if it happens with no asking from you .

I think you did a great job the past couple of phone calls and the visit . Now thats it back way off . HE calls only to talk to kids NOT you do not get on . If you do say I can't talk I am not doing well and say goodnight . Do not be nasty , angry , just calm and low tone .

I know your tired , very tired , working and taking cae of everything a house and family you intended on having a partner to help with THEN BAM all the things that you wanted less the PARTNER ,,,, NOT FAIR NOT FAIR AT ALL !

WHAT I am also saying is you need to move foward , because if the fog is lifting there is so much more work ahead and you really need your strenght for that .

Please just worry about you and your kids . not worry just learn to be happy with that first . Make that the most forfilling part of your life .

BE well !

WELL SAID, 3!!!!! RIGHT ON TARGET!!!

Although my FWH calls me almost hourly at work, I remain anxious most of these days still. My D-DAY was December 31st last year. Just thinking about having to face that day again frigntens me indescribably.

Hang in There, Shugah!!

Has anyone recovered from financial ruin and infidelity at the same time? As a couple that is.
For those of you have followed my story, you know that financially we have hit bottom. This is a major stress and pride factor for both of us but more so for WH.
Lately, it is obvious that WH is frustrated and disturbed by the inevitable outcome of his A, both financially and emotionally.
I'm stressed to the max, but holding steady.
He continues to say that he will think about coming home. Even tonight, although our phone call could have been disastrous, it was headed that way, we both worked through our anger and frustration to the point of understanding and caring. This of course is a MAJOR change from just a few months ago.
He is upset that I won't let him be here for Christmas. But I said, it is just too painful for me, and if my Christmas is ruined so is the Kids'.
But back to my original question...
Does anyone feel that it would be possible for us to work on a recovery and pull ourselves out of the ashes financially?
I think he still wants me to proceed with the D, because financially it would actually stop the ship from sinking. I won't get into details as to how that would happen, but I'm pretty sure that is what he is thinking at this point.
Because I am hopeful that WH is coming out of the fog, I am beginning to realize the magnitude of the work ahead of us. And would the stress of our financial situation be too much for us to handle on top of rebuilding the M?
Has anyone been there and been successful?
Advice anyone?

Aw, forget it!
It's the usual 1 step forward, 2 back!
WH is angry because I didn't want him coming up here Christmas Day.
Then yesterday he called, (not knowing that I was going to be able to do some Christmas Shopping due to a generous donation, see other post), he was out shopping with OW and wanted to know if S would be interested in a particular item that he saw.
I went off on him, that I didn't want anything that was bought, subsidised, touched or wrapped by HER!! He was ticked off, telling me that "it's about the kids", and that I need to get over it, it's my problem.
I was even considering offering him Christmas Afternoon here with the kids and I would go out somewhere visiting...I told him that...
Now he's being all defensive and angry, even though I tried to explain why I would get so upset knowing that he's out shopping with OW for our kids, not even knowing if I had money to shop at all, and that I'd be doing it ALONE! And that it was this time last year that he didn't come home to go out shopping because he was with HER!
I was so hopeful last week, he was saying that he'd think about coming home and now he sounds like he hates me again.
I'm so tired of this.
I KNOW...GO DARK Again!!
I really felt that we were getting somewhere, but I guess not.

I think he was wanting to cake-eat, still not quite ready to give her up, but moving more in that direction.

Yes, it's time to GO DARK again. He will really miss you at Xmas.

In regards to finances, the A took a toll on ours too. Having an A involves personal ruin.

An important part of our Recovery has been building up again as a TEAM which is what marriage is supposed to be about anyways.

It seems hopeless, Shugah but it probably is not. My situation was really awful!!!!

Have faith and hope if you can.

Christmas is over, I'm so glad actually!!
It was ok, the kids seemed to have a good day, it was just very quiet, nothing to really to set it apart from any other day spent at home, except for the gifts in the morning.
Does any one else know what I'm talking about?
I put out the gifts alone the night before, and it was such a sad time, when it should have been exciting.
Oh, I put on the great show the next morning, excited about Santa's visit, "look he ate your cookies, and left a note!" stuff. But the rest of the day was a let down. I'm sure the kids felt it too and I feel so guilty about that. I can't help feeling that I should have done more to make it festive.
WH didn't come up Christmas day after all. Of course i feel guilty about that too. Originally I had told him no, I didn't want my Christmas ruined. Then when I changed my mind,he said he'd come up. Then Christmas Eve he called(didn't even talk to the kids)and said he wasn't coming, he didn't want to "ruin my christmas"!. He's coming up sat. instead to catch S's basketball game and he said he couldn't afford to come twice!!
He did call Christmas day, talked to the kids, not sure he would have, if I didn't ask him if he wanted to. He chatted a bit with me.
It ruined the rest of my day, and I even got upset and called him back. I Wanted to know how it felt to be without your family on Christmas day? He said, he would rather have been together with them(kids?), I said it could have happened but not if he's seeing an OW. He said,"things seem to be working out pretty well for him in that dept.!! So much for the "thinking about coming home" statements of just a couple of weeks ago.
Today, I am so down. I'm at work, luckily boss is out, so it's a guiet day, but I'm not sure I can get through the day with out some tears. I'm just so tired of it all. There is absolutely no excitement in my life, or the kid's for that matter, I feel like we are all just making do...just getting through another day.
I wish I could shake this feeling.

You can make it, Sugah. I know very well how exhausting it is to deal with our wandering spouses -- I've got my own to deal with, after all! But you'll make it, and the days that are good, the ones of ginger bread and quiet joy, will continue to grow as the bad days die away.

It takes time, and on the sad, tired days you'll come here and post, and come here and read, and it'll help some.

I'm going to post an update on my own thread today for the first day in weeks. Because today I, too, am tired of all of this.

Just remember that whatever your WH is going through, and I'm sure it's very very painful for him, Plan B is to protect you from further pain. If talking to him is hurting you, please don't. I know that interaction with my WP is enough to bring me to tears even when it's minor stuff, not to mention all the hurts of the last couple of years. So... just keep breathing, keep noticing those small (and large) pleasures in your life. You're strong, and doing really really well most of the time. It's okay to cry when you get too tired and upset to do anything else. And then tomorrow, after you sleep, you'll feel wonderful.

The holiday was difficult. I feel like my anger is coming to the top again, and I have been unable to stop myself from showing it to WH.
I wrote the following to send to OW, although I will probably not actually send it. However, I may send it to WH....although what's the point?
Why was he saying, "I'll think about coming home" just a few weeks ago and now seem have made an abrupt turn once again? Have I pushed him away? Maybe. Was he just being cruel?

Anyways, here is the letter. It helped to vent.
Dear

I have a few questions for you, however because I believe you really have no heart or conscience I expect them to be too difficult for you to answer.

How do you live with yourself?

How do you explain your adulterous affair to your daughters?

Do you justify by saying that you are saving WH from a horrible and wicked wife?

Does he justify it by saying that?

Was it exciting for you to sleep with my husband knowing you would be destroying the lives and happiness and his entire family?

Do you even understand the incredible pain that it has caused us?

Do you feel that wives and children are disposable these days and hardly worth the work it takes to make it last?

Do you encourage him to not give me a decent settlement or the spousal support that he was court ordered to pay?

Do either of you understand that I do the 24/7 child rearing and all that it entails as well as hand over my entire paycheck each week to supporting them? Yet, WH feels that it is fair to give me only slightly more than the amount of my paycheck towards supporting us and he gets to live off substantially more all by himself? And do you see that as fair?

Do you both downplay the pain that our sons are in, the acting out, the anger, the tears, or do you conveniently blame that on me?

Do your family and friends lack the same moral convictions that you do and blindly accept your adulterous lover as one of the gang?

Do they say, good job OW, quite a catch you’ve got there, was it tough stealing him away from his family, or is he so disloyal and shallow that it was easy?

Do you both expect my children and I to make the sacrifices that it will take so that they remain a part of WH’s life, even though he was unwilling to make that sacrifice for them?

Do you really think that they will enjoy spending 6 hrs. in a car every other weekend to be “visitors” in your lives?

Do you think that will be enough to sustains WH’s role as a Daddy in their lives?

Do you not realize that at some point they will realize what this is all about, and that their Daddy “chose” to be a family with you and your children over them?

Do you not think that it will hurt when they know that Dad spends all his time with someone elses children, and helping their mother take care of them over his own children?

Do you really think that because “divorce happens all the time”, that it really is no big deal, and that we should adjust easily and “just get over it”?

Do you ever acknowledge the pain you have caused or do you dismiss me as being an emotionally unstable person? And if so, do you accept any responsibility at all for that?

Do you justify your affair with “it was meant to be”, “we are soulmates”, “we can’t turn our backs on this kind of love”, and do you realize how juvenile and pathetic you sound? That kind of stuff is right out of Adultery 101! You are not unique!

I know why I want my husband, I have loved him for many years and we still have a family to raise and children who deserve a full-time father, but why do you want someone who walks away from his children, his commitment, and the woman he promised to love, cherish and protect? You believe it’s “different” this time? Foolish woman!

Every time that you are in bars or playing pool, and he is wasting money and time that should have spent on his children, is that OK with you? Is he still being a good Daddy? Does that show he is committed to his children?

Does it make your recreational time more guilt free knowing that his children are being well taken care of by the woman who thought that this was going to be a partnership? The woman who will pass on starting a new life for herself because she could never walk away from her children or force yet another significant other into theirs lives because she knows how difficult and unfair that would be to them.

Despite that, does WH even care that it is a real possibility that someone could replace him in his home and in his role as the person who makes his daughter feel like his little princess every day, or puts in the time and effort to make his son feel important enough that he would attend all his practices and games? That’s what they need but it won’t be WH who gives them that!

Do you understand that WH is not the kind of father who teaches his children right from wrong, disciplines them, comforts them, talks to them, really talks to them, understands them, knows their interests, knows what their day has been like….having the name Dad, doesn’t automatically make you a father.
You have to work at it and earn it!

No child should learn the kindof lessons that he is teaching them!

Do you not understand that our marriage did not just “fall apart” as WH claims, but that it was TORN apart, piece by piece, everytime you chose to sleep together?

Do you really see yourself as a "nice" person or the lying, cheating, sneaking, hurtful, selfish, thieving woman that you are?

I truly believe that people get what they deserve, and honey, I’m sure you will! And so will I!!!! Think about it.

[ December 30, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Shugah ]

Shugah,

I've been thinking about stopping my visits to MB. I get so frustrated with you guys. I want to shake you. I want for you what I have. You've got to follow the MB Principles, Shugah. I've learned so much from my FWH over the past couple of days. Please listen!!!

The key is to really do PLAN B now. The importance of going dark is for him to miss you, to believe that you are moving on and its for you to get stronger and to not to resort to wanting to LB or write a letter to the OW.

Contacting the OW will do absolutely nothing for you at this point. Are you wanting to insure the end of your marriage, Shugah? Are do you really want to give it a chance.

A letter to her now will only fuel continuing their relationship at a point when he is wavering, beginning to sit on the fence. He has to see you as a bad person in order to rationalize staying in the A. She will use this to reinforce any of those thoughts that he has. Do you understand? This between you and your WH. Do not give her any of the power that she is seeking. Their relationship is coming to an end. I am sure of it and she knows this.

Stop this SHUGAH!! Get back on the horse.

I wish Mortarman was around to hit you with his 2 by 4.

Hi Shugah,

I hope you haven't sent the above letter to either WH or OW. As Mimi has pointed out, it's a huge LB to your WH. Please do NOT send it.

It's not like we don't know how terrible this has been for you, we've been there too. And I'm very sorry you're going thru this, you don't deserve it. No one deserves this kind of betrayal and pain, especially your children.

That being said, I'm not sure after reading your post if you're in Plan A or B. If you are in Plan B, then you need to continue NO CONTACT of your WH.

"Going dark AGAIN" tells me you have tried Plan B and then surface to have contact with your H, in which you end up LBing. That reinforces to me that you have almost a ZERO balance left in your love bank for him, which also tells me you should be in Plan B.

Every time you waffle between Plan B and Plan "LB" you demonstrate to your H the person he will be coming home to, not a safe place. I KNOW how hard this is, but if you're not consistent in you Plans you can expect the same results every time, a fence sitting WH.

JMVHO.

God Bless,
Jo

I know you guys are right as always. I've really pretty much canned the Plan B. I felt that it was working for a while...better communication, more fencesitting, which was an improvement from being totally off it! Much needed quality visit time with the kids at home ( I usually left)

But you're right, I'm LBing all over the place, when I get riled up about something...it consumes me.

I did say in my last post that I probably was not going to send the letter, just needed to vent.
But I know now that I ABSOLUTELY should not.

I will give it the old college try again. Nothing left to lose at this point.
Filing for D this week, I think that is what sent me over the edge. Unfortunately I need to file for financial reasons...
I'm sure it's the beginning of the end.

I'm really sorry Shugah. Please believe me when I tell you I KNOW how hard this is, I've got a few big notches of LB's on my belt as well, that's how I recognized yours.

If you feel you have to file for D for financial reasons, wouldn't filing for legal separation instead be the equivalent? As an alternative to divorce?

Lv,
Jo

I've been advised that legal separation is not the way to go. Because in the event of divorce, the whole process starts all over again. Which means more money.
Unfortunately, someone else is paying my legal fees and I don't feel that I can do that.
Because financially I need to do whatever I can to save the ship from sinking, I need to just do it.
I've let it go long enough and am about to lose everything.
This may be the only way to save the house, etc. WH has agreed to give me his entire Annuity account(if he doesn't back out!).

I'm just so sorry that this is happening to you. Although it seems like it's working out for me right now, I want you to know that I feel for you. It's awful!!!!

I guess you feel like you want to do something so writing the OW seems like a relieving thing to do. I honestly find myself to be obsessed with the OW, wanting to get her told, wanting to destroy her. However, the more I hear about the OW in my case wasting any time of my life on her is useless. She's a sleaze and was used by my FWH-just like what happens to most women like her. They are not even in our league, Shugah.

Shugah,

What a bunch of crapola! I am SO sorry that you find you have to take this route.

But...please - go back to your strong Plan B. You know it will help you by isolating you from the drama and the pain. And if he is truly starting to miss you, it may push him in the right direction.

The filing can always be halted (I hope, I hope!) if things begin to work out for you.

But you know the drill...DARK, very, very DARK!

*S*

P.S. Mimi...you gave me a good laugh, reading that you were "frustrated" with the MB'ers. I had to momentarily remember all the beatings you took when you would stray from the MB plan. I am delighted you're on the other side now. Keep up the good work. And don't you dare leave MB. Your experience is too valuable. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I know you guys are right as always. I've really pretty much canned the Plan B. I felt that it was working for a while...better communication, more fencesitting, which was an improvement from being totally off it! Much needed quality visit time with the kids at home ( I usually left)
How did you have "better communication" and know they were "fencesitting" while you were in Plan B?Plan B is no communication.

Shugah,

I am so sorry for how you are feeling, I read your post all the time and it sounds so much like me, I have wanted to post to you so many times. I pray for you and the kids.

Your post made me cry <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> one to many times so I can say I know how you feel and I loved your letter to Ow I feel the same <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , but they are right as much as I would love to send one also don't. Don't give her not one thing to use towards you.

Hang it there.

Thanks guys,
Sparkle- I'm with you, I laughed too about Mimi! I'm glad she's here to help toughen us up!!

No2Nos-it does suck! Sometimes I don't know how I made it this far! But here I am!

Chris-You misunderstood, I'm sorry for not being more clear. I had canned Plan B and I felt that NOT following it was what was improving the communication, etc.! And it was, for a short while, I noticed a real change in attitude...but alas, not being in Plan B, and not seeing anymore progress, allowed me to get emotional again and LB's have followed. So it is time to renew the effort.
I realize that my many failures at it have in effect ruined any chance I may have had at recovering my marriage, however I do need it to save my sanity!!

Resilient, Mimi, everyone...Here I go again! Perhaps a short version of Plan B letter might be in order? He knows how I feel though, so maybe just fading into the darkness is all I need?

Thanks once again for showing me the path to SELF recovery once again! It's not easy, and I'm my own worst enemy sometimes!!

You're a sweetheart Shugah, with a lot of heart and courage. Your WH will be lucky to have you back. Lets pray he'll not wait too long, and you'll still want him by then.

Very Best,
Jo

Shugah,

I have no words of wisdom, just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you and still praying for you!!!

I remember going through this and it was so hard ((Shugah))

Shugah,

I don't know how long ago it was that you broke your Plan B, but no, don't just fade into the darkness. Tell him, in a new letter, why you are going NC with him again. Then keep your promise.

You know, it really does work. I am still struggling with some issues, not in Recovery yet, but heading there. The point is you have to be absolutely true to the plan. Don't waiver, no matter how tempting it is. I was very tempted lots of times, but let my reading and posting here keep me on track.

{{{{{{Shugah}}}}}}}}

*S*

Yes! Another PLAN B Letter. KEEP IT SIMPLE. I love you. This is the way back. Get rid of the OW.

Remember what Mortarman told me. He was so right. My FWH began quoting my PLAN B letters back to me. That was his roadmap, a hold on reality when he did not have me because I was dark, well semi-dark <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> there at the end. I remember a lot of strategizing going on. Your WH sounds like he's at a point where mine was and he tells me now that he was wanting to figure out how to come back but did not feel that it was possible given the mess that he had made out of his life. You can help him SHUGAH.

I can understand you guys laughing at me. Now I really understand how frustrating it was for you guys to see me goof. It just shows how crazy-making and awful this situation is for us. However, unlike others, we are willing to FIGHT for our marriages.

I told my FWH that I am so afraid that he will leave me again after all of this. I'll never forget what he said: At least you'll know that you've done everything you could possibly do to save your marriage. Isn't that an incredible statement?

[ December 30, 2003, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

Here is my draft of my Plan B letter for yet another attempt at PB!

Feedback welcomed! Should I say anything about his recent change in attitude and how it gave me hope or just ignore that altogether?

Dear WH,
Once again I find myself in a position of having to protect myself from the pain and anguish that results from the knowledge of your ongoing affair. You know how worked up I get when I’m reminded that you are together, and you have turned your back on us, and that me and the kids are not who you have chosen to love and protect. It is so hard to keep myself from lashing out in my despair.
It is difficult for me to see you, to talk to you and to “act” as though nothing has changed between us and then watch as you drive away to another life. You talk to me as though we are still a couple, telling me about your “sore shoulder”, as if I’m somehow expected to respond in a loving and sympathetic way, while at the same time, I have no one that cares about anything that might be hurting me. I want so much to be able to comfort you and take care of you, but I realize that it is not my place any more and that pain is often more than I can bear.
Please know that I’m stepping back once more in an attempt to find peace in my heart while I still struggle with the fallout of your affair. I will keep our communication to a minimum, I will not call you unless necessary and ask that you do the same. For now, you can still visit with the kids at the house and I’ll find other things to do. Owen especially needs that time with you in a place that is familiar and safe for him.
You know how I still feel about you and that I want our marriage to recover. There is a way home. The first step is yours to take.
Love,
BS

P.S.
Thank you for the Christmas gifts that you brought the kids and for saying that they were from both of us. I truly wish they were.

More of a love letter, talking about your feelings about him. Perhaps talking about Xmas memories of just the two of you together. With the OW, its about romance. He probably wants to know that he will have a fun, romantic life with YOU. He also wants to be Father to his kids but is probably hanging on to her for the romance. That's the addictive factor. Have learned all this from my FWH.

Also try to use less YOU language and more I language.

Just my thoughts......

I'll take another look at the "you" language but finding it hard to cut.
I added a Christmas memory section.

Once again I find myself in a position of having to protect myself from the pain and anguish that results from the knowledge of your ongoing affair. You know how worked up I get when I’m reminded that you are together, and you have turned your back on us, and that me and the kids are not who you have chosen to love and protect. It is so hard to keep myself from lashing out in my despair.
It is difficult for me to see you, to talk to you and to “act” as though nothing has changed between us and then watch as you drive away to another life. You talk to me as though we are still a couple, telling me about your “sore shoulder”, as if I’m somehow expected to respond in a loving and sympathetic way, while at the same time, I have no one that cares about anything that might be hurting me. I want so much to be able to comfort you and take care of you, but I realize that it is not my place any more and that pain is often more than I can bear.
Please know that I’m stepping back once more in an attempt to find peace in my heart while I still struggle with the fallout of your affair. I will keep our communication to a minimum, I will not call you unless necessary and ask that you do the same. For now, you can still visit with the kids at the house and I’ll find other things to do. Owen especially needs that time with you in a place that is familiar and safe for him.
I missed you this Christmas, remembering putting out the Santa gifts together and sharing the kids’ excitement on Christmas morning! I remember all of our Christmas’ together, and I still put “Our 1st Christmas Together” ornament on the tree. Remember that “cardinal bird feeder” that John made and his first kitten!!
You know how I still feel about you and that I want our marriage to recover. There is a way home. The first step is yours to take.
Love,

P.S.
Thank you for the Christmas gifts that you brought the kids and for saying that they were from both of us. I truly wish they were.

Shugah,

Here are my comments:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Dear WH,
Once again I find myself in a position of having to protect myself from the pain and anguish that results from the knowledge of your ongoing affair. <hr /></blockquote>Perfect!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You know how worked up I get when I’m reminded that you are together, and you have turned your back on us, and that me and the kids are not who you have chosen to love and protect. <hr /></blockquote>Turned your back...while true, it's a LB. How about: "Knowing you are with the OW instead of with your family creates more pain than I can bear."

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It is so hard to keep myself from lashing out in my despair. <hr /></blockquote>Maybe: "I need to protect both of us from any more damage that may be brought on by the anger and frustration I show when I am around you. It is only because of the pain caused by your affair that I react this way."

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It is difficult for me to see you, to talk to you and to “act” as though nothing has changed between us and then watch as you drive away to another life. <hr /></blockquote>I would eliminate the "and then watch you drive away to another life." You could replace it with "and know that the affair is still going on."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You talk to me as though we are still a couple, telling me about your “sore shoulder”, as if I’m somehow expected to respond in a loving and sympathetic way, while at the same time, I have no one that cares about anything that might be hurting me. I want so much to be able to comfort you and take care of you, but I realize that it is not my place any more and that pain is often more than I can bear. <hr /></blockquote>I'd eliminate tha first part, but definiely keep the ending. Suggestion: "You recently mentioned your sore shoulder. While I care very much that you aren't feeling well, you have chosen to be with someone else. As long as we aren't in a partnership, I can do nothing to ease your pain."

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Please know that I’m stepping back once more in an attempt to find peace in my heart while I still struggle with the fallout of your affair. <hr /></blockquote>Good!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I will keep our communication to a minimum, I will not call you unless necessary and ask that you do the same. <hr /></blockquote>Might want to spell out the only conditions under which there should be contact: children's health issues, severe financial issues, etc.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />For now, you can still visit with the kids at the house and I’ll find other things to do. Owen especially needs that time with you in a place that is familiar and safe for him. <hr /></blockquote>Again, set specific conditions/times.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You know how I still feel about you and that I want our marriage to recover. There is a way home. The first step is yours to take. <hr /></blockquote>"You know how I still feel about you..." Shugah, TELL him exactly how you feel...that you married him for life, that he is the only man you want, etc. Remember, a PBL is a Love Letter.

Sorry for all the editing to your letter...just my opinions. Remember, we're all amateurs here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

*S*

Sparkle,

Great suggestions, thanks, I'll rework it!

Here goes!

Dear WH,
Once again I find myself in a position of having to protect myself from the pain and anguish that results from the knowledge of your ongoing affair. You know how worked up I get when I’m reminded that you are with her instead of your family and it creates more pain than I can bear.
I need to protect both of us from any more damage that may be brought on by the anger and frustration I feel. It is only because of the pain caused by your affair that I react this way.
It is difficult for me to see you, to talk to you and to “act” as though nothing has changed between us and know that the affair is still going on.
You recently mentioned your sore shoulder. While I care very much that you aren’t feeling well, you have chosen to be with someone else. As long as we aren’t in a partnership, I can do nothing to ease your pain.
Please know that I’m stepping back once more in an attempt to find peace in my heart while I still struggle with the fallout of your affair. I will keep our communication to a minimum, I will not call you unless necessary and ask that you do the same. Contact will only take place for visitation and financial issues. For now, you can still visit with the kids at the house and I’ll find other things to do. Owen especially needs that time with you in a place that is familiar and safe for him.
I missed you this Christmas, remembering putting out the Santa gifts together and sharing the kids’ excitement on Christmas morning! I remember all of our Christmas’ together, and I still put “Our 1st Christmas Together” ornament on the tree. Remember that “gift” that S#2 made and his first kitten!! I especially cherish the memories of bringing three of our babie’s home in time for Christmas!
It will be difficult for me to distance myself from you, but I need to do this. I still love you more than I will ever love anyone, I married you for life and I know that we can find a way to heal our hearts, our marriage and our family. There is a way home. The first step is yours to take.
Love,
Shugah

[ December 30, 2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Shugah ]

Hi Shugah:

I agree with Sparkle on most comments.

However, I would put the I LOVE YOU part and memories first in the letter. Start off being loving and that will grab his attention. If you start off "beating" him as my FWH called it, he might not read the rest. He feels guilty now about what he is doing and wants to run away from that. He needs to feel the pain but don't allow him to run.

Then keep it simple on the arrangements and how to come back. Get rid of the OW, NC letter etc.

I'm so glad for you that you are doing this. It is so hard I know. You know that I know.....but in the end it has been well worth it for me.

Mimi,

Excellent suggestion! Get his attention first with words of love.

Shugah, if you do that, I think you've got it.

Only other suggestion: break it into paragraphs. Much easier to read.

You go, girl! We're here with you!

*S*

Very good Plan B letter, Shug!

I know in Harley's book SAA he recommends to some that they might explore cc:ing the OP their Plan B letter.

Do any of you that know Shug's story think it's appropriate she do so? Just checking.

Jo

Plan B letter in the mail. I made the changes and sent it off.
Will not bother sending a copy to OW. I sent one the last time. I'm sure he'll probably share his latest correspondance from the "whacko wife" who won't give up!
WH called yesterday, gave him the cold shoulder, would not chit chat, so he asked to speak to D. I only asked him what he is depositing for support this week. As usual, far less than he's supposed to. I just said, ok, bye.
Letter sent to Lawyer today. Going to begin the divorce process in order to try to save the house from foreclosure. Financially, I am out of options. Cannot wait any longer.
I was awake all night.
But I feel ok about things this morning.
My resolution for the new year is ACTION. On all fronts, personal, physical, legal, etc. No more putting things off!

Shugah,

I'm very pleased to hear you sounding so strong. Sorry it is coming to this, but as you posted to hopeful_person, you can "never say never."

Anyhow, I know you are doing what you must. Per our recent correspondence, I do not feel I am far behind you, sadly.

2004 will NOT be like 2003 for me either. My life is going to change - one way or the other. No more, as you said, being a "spectator."

Amazing the strength we can muster when we really need to. Too bad our WS's can't find the same courage.

I’m kind of curious as to why you are doing Plan B if you are filing for divorce?

Hi Chris,
I don't want the D! Plan B, I need it to keep from LB'ing. It is still very painful for me to see or talk to WH while he is still involved with OW.
Financially, I have no choice.
Bankruptcy is almost complete, I will be losing my car soon. House payments not up to date and it would have been the only way to keep the house despite bankruptcy.
WH is not paying full support as ordered by court.
(contempt charges being considered also)
Lawyer says I can access WH's annuity as partial distribution of marital assets, fairly soon, if D gets started.
This will allow me, hopefully, to hold on to the house, or if need be, get an apt. if I lose it, and to get a car.
It is my only option. I have borrowed all the money I can from family...
It's been a year since D-Day...
I need to protect me and the kids financially.
I've let this go too long.

Also,
Plan B, even though Divorced, can still protect the BS from the inevitable pain of an ongoing A until enough time has passed and recovery has occured. Correct?

There is a difference in Plan B and not dealing with the spouse.

Plan B is for when you still want to reconcile.
You are divorcing with no thoughts of reconciliation.

You sent him a Plan B letter and told him you are still open to reconciliation when in fact, you are not.

Also, if you get divorced, you have no need to deal with him at all.

[ January 02, 2004, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Chris!!!
Where and when did I EVER say that I did not want to reconcile?
It is still what I want very much. Unfortunately, I need to proceed with Divorce because I need MONEY!!!FOOD!!!HEAT!CAR!A HOME!
IF WH will not do all that he can to help take care of his children, then I will do what I have to at this point!!
What don't you understand about that?
WH does know that I would prefer to rebuild our marriage! Unfortunately, he has made no efforts towards that...and meanwhile, the situation with me & the kids continues to deteriorate.
I can continue to spend sleepless nights, worrying how I will provide for my children or I can ACT!
The money is there, the only way to access it is in a divorce settlement, or he has to quit his job.
I can pay down the mortgage & refinance to make it more affordable, buy a car, pay off my debt to my family, etc. I can't continue to live like this!
Do I continue to scrounge off my family, accept donations for Christmas gifts, go back on food stamps or do what I HAVE TO DO?
Right now WH does not to seem to care, and he may never...so I need to move forward. If at some point the situation should change with him....well, I'll cross that bridge when & If we get to it!
So it is PLan B(again!) AND Divorce!

Also,
This has NOT been an easy decision for me!
I have allowed things to go as far as I possibly could...I just hope it is not too late.
I may look like an idiot in most people's eyes because I have NOT given up the idea of reconciliation with FOG MAN, but I will not sit here and Lose everything, when there are options!
Doing so keeps me the victim!

For some illogical reason I continue to be amazed at how these wayward spouses treat their husbands, wives and children. Truly, if there was no devil at the creation, mankind must have made one somewhere along the way.

How else do we explain human beings, many of whom claim various religious values doing the things they do?

Shugah, I will pray for you and your children. Your children are fortunate to have a parent who cares for them. May God bless you all.

Shuagh

I maybe wrong. Like I said I am in the same boat you are and when talking to the bank about saving the house (refinance) they asked if I had claimed bankruptcy. I said no, but I am. Something told me to say no. I then asked why and they told me, if I had before in the past so many years there would have been no way to save the house.

So... I called the lawyers and told them to put a hold on the bankruptcy till the house was taken care of. I didn't want to ask to much on it I was to sacared and they did check to see and since my lawyers held the papers and didn't file it yet I was ok.

So please check on that. I just had new paper work for the house sent to me and they (Freddie Mac) did lower my payment and I will be able to save my house for now. I did tell them why my house fell behind, because of the affair and H company was sold and taken over by new ownership changing the pay. We had never been behind before and I had to put it all in letter why we fell behind and both H and I had to sign it and he did.

I just wanted you to know that. Like I said,I maybe wrong, just please check before your bankruptcy is filed and then again it maybe different for you. There are so many different chapters of bankruptcy.

I feel for you and I know how you are feeling right now and don't give up hope even on your lowest days. You are MOMMY.

[ January 02, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: No2nos ]

Okay.
But Plan B and filing for divorce are sending two completely opposite messages.
Plan B is I love you and want to work it out.
Divorce is I don’t want to work it out (whether you do or not is another story.)

No2Nos,
Bankruptcy will actually be complete by end of Jan.
Chris, WH knows why I'll be filing and that I don't want to.
AS a matter of fact I'm not sure WH doens't have an other motive for seeing me file...
He has said, "this is the best way I can take care of my family right now" (financially of course,) at the time he was offering me his entire annuity fund. Not sure if that is still the case.
He was also interested in knowing what the lawyer said if I were to access this money and then the Divorce was never finalized. I had asked the lawyer that ?, but he needs to research...
So, I'm positive that WH knows MY only motive right now is financial.
I'm hoping with this money, I can pay down the mortgage and refinance. Hopefully despite the bankruptcy, I will be able to do this.
UGGH!
On a better note, I went out last night and had FUN!!! Laughed until I almost peed my pants kindof fun!

Hi all,
First of all, I haven't been posting much because I still feel that certain family members may be lurking. Maybe just my paranoia...

Anyways...this Plan B stuff is hard for me. I'm not completely successful, however the fact that I do not have much contact at all with WH by phone in between visits, helps me to remain calm and sane.

He calls maybe once per week with support info. and asks about kids, although he rarely asks to speak to them. I keep it to a minimum.

He visits every 2 weeks...I've been letting him have the day here at the house with the kids, as they really need that time with him in a familiar and safe place. There's usually a kids game or two to go to during the day, and mostly I make myself scarce.
I know that this also makes it "easy" for him, however, right now my main concern is the kids...especially 12 yr. old S. D & S did not want to go to a motel anymore with him and WH really has no money to do so.

So now on to the last visit last saturday.
I broke my usual plan of leaving for the day...and stuck around but "tried" to stay out of the way...napped, etc. My plans had fallen through, S had a game, and the weather was frigid. Ok, all excuses...

Before the end of the visit, I did talk to WH, very closely and softly. He was lying on the sofa, stroking D's hair, looking so comfortable and "belonging here"...
I said something like, "why don't you just come, home...the kids need you, I need you, we miss you..."

His responses were, "why would you want an old fuddy duddy like me", "if it didn't work out would you just throw me out on my *ss", "it would be difficult to face everyone" (this I know is his biggest hurdle)and "I am confused, I see the kids and know that I should be with them",and while patting "dog", "I don't even think "dog" misses me". (It is obvious that "dog" adores him.) All fog statements, true, yet still shows me that he is unsure of what he should do. There have been so many times when he has sounded as though his decision is certain.

I did tell him that I wouldn't end up throwing him out because if he were to come back, I would be committed to seeing it through the difficult recovery period, and I wouldn't want him back unless he were committed too. "Bailing out" when the going got tough could not be the first option.

We talked about the Divorce.
It is the only option financially unfortunately. WH said, "file and get the money and we'll take it from there". Whatever that means.

Lawyer has said that at this point, the "cleanest, easiest" way to reconcile(if it was to happen) at this point because of the $$), would be to complete the D and remarry.

This is going to be difficult. How do I D, and get the best settlement possible for me and the kids in case we don't reconcile yet proceed throughout with hope that we still could reconcile. Am I making my dilema clear? It is all so confusing and sad that I even have to do it like this. I will be firm about using all options available to enforce support payments! He is currently making partial payments.

When he left, I said (a bit tearfully), "don't you miss us?" and he put his hands on my shoulders and said, "I miss YOU, ok?".
I think he was just telling me what I wanted to hear..

So that's my update.
I need to plan a birthday party for D, she wants WH here. It will be small, however,I may include a few of our old friends who WH has not seen or spoken to since the A. I know they would be "good' around him and it may help to show him that it would not be impossible to "face everyone" should he return. A bit manipulative?
Not sure yet though what I will do.
Suggestions, feedback?

Hey Shugah,

It sounds so much like your H wants to come home, but doesn't know how to do it. What is the status with the OW? Are they still together?

I know that because of the financial situation you wouldn't be able to hire the Harleys or Penny (Cerri) but you might go over to the Just Found Out board and post to Cerri. She volunteers so much of her time to this board, and maybe she can help you out. She's out right now for some medical stuff, but should be back soon. In the meantime, Star*fish, who works with her, might help her, so you might call them both out in your thread title. Get some help from them...they are really, really good.

My only concern about the birthday party is that your H may not come if he even suspects that your friends might be there. Saving face, you know? Embarrassment. Now, if he arrived and realized they were OK, yeah, that might work. But if he asks who's going to be there, you will have to tell him.

Good luck, Shug!

Bump

Just wanted to say hang in there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and I am still reading your post <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> and I know what you are saying and how you are feeling right now. Your H sounds as lost as mine right down to the dog. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I chose Feb. 14 as my deadline...it was significant to me for many reasons.

I felt WH was close to saying the words "I want to come home", but I knew I could not continue to live like this for much longer. In the past few weeks he has indicated a desire to come home without any real commitment towards doing so. I can no longer torture myself like this.

He knew I had a deadline but did not know when...he's definately confused, unhappy and I just don't know how I can help him with that.

I have to help myself now...use my energies towards moving forward with my life.

I thought I would wake up with this tremendous weight off my shoulders, unfortunately there is no significant change. Wishful thinking!

THe D is started, it's for real, I know what I have to do.

Dear Shugah,

Good to hear from you. You know your stance seems so much stronger than last year. You have come a long way. Personal recovery is always within the grasp of the BS. You have shown us that.

The WS still is lost. Funny you said that last year. Guess he must really be in the fog. You know the fact that the WS can't make that clean break from his family is just another point that the OW can't be that great.

Oh well...... U though are still shining as the light of his family. He is just too far in the fog to see it. He will, one day.

In the interim, keep identifying your personal boundaries and keep moving forward. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

ps: I saw you have been helping out others. Thanks. Please keep up the good work. It is a lot easier to see and assimilate this far down the road, 'eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thank you for your post and I wish you were not feeling as I do. Sorry <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I would not wish it on no one.

Again thanks I have been wondering about ya and I do wonder how you are doing. I hope eveything goes good for you and you start doing for you as I should also. Hang in there I to will be lurking from time to time.

I like what Orchid put here in your post. If Ow was so GREAT then they would be able to let their family go. I think she has something there.

Well, things are pretty much going nowhere....
WH is still "confused", but doing nothing to get past that...
I was so hopeful...
He's had the D papers in his hand for over a week and still has not signed & returned...even though he was the one to suggest that financially, it's the thing to do...
I finally said the other day, "fine, sign them, don't sign them, I didn't want it anyways...lose the house, whatever...I just don't care anymore...

I'm tired of fighting for something so important to me....and to feel like me & the kids are just not worth fighting for to him.
I'm tired of being in limbo...

I really don't think he has what it takes to come back and do the work anyways.

He's not happy but doesn't seem to want to do anything to fix it...

I'm beginning to feel less and less love for him...and I'm not going back to Plan B to save it...it's time to just let it die out and move on.

I'm writing him today, to let him know that I'm really done now. I've held on to the hope of rebuilding our M and family, long enough. Apparantly, we are just not worth fighting for to him, and his inability or refusal to do anything about it is proof of that.

My frustration is beginning to turn to anger again and I'm so very tired of that.

Some things are just not meant to be...and it's time I admit that.

I gave it my best and I have no regrets...for the most part...

Shugah - Why do you think he won't sign the DV papers? After all, you'd be giving him a way out, and he could even say it was your idea! You say he's "confused", is that the way he describes himself? Read some of ^ark's responses to Lost Bird about being stuck and not making a decision. I think she's right when she says that a WS not making a decision is "comfortable" for them, but that action, while not comfortable now, will be the best choice in the long run. You have taken action by sending DV papers. He has to respond with action of his own and it's not comfortable for him, but that's just too bad.

Shugah I've posted to you before and have tried to persuade you to get off the emotional rollercoaster. It's so much saner and healthier to stay out of the world of the WS. For your own sake, try to detach.

You say you're tired, tired of fighting for your family, tired of being in limbo, well of course you are! You are going through a life-changing traumatic experience. You've done a great job in the face of a terrible trial. You've been there for your kids, which is the most important thing a parent can do. You've coped with extra work, financial worries and countless other pressures while dealing with the added stress of your WH having an A. It's amazing how well you've coped with this ordeal. Part of why we've come here to MB is that we want to be able to say we've done the best we can no matter what happens, and you've done that. You can take comfort in knowing you've done the best you can.

Are you truly done, Shugah? Some say you'll know when that day comes. I can feel it reaching a critical mass in me. You and I will both be OK, better than OK. I just want you to take care of yourself. Quit giving your WH so much of your precious energy! It's wasted on him now, and you need as much as you can get.

Lablady

[ February 24, 2004, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: lablady ]

yes, lablady,
I'm truly DONE.
Enough of this nonsense. I can't even bring myself to post advice to others anymore, because I am so cynical about relationships right now.

You're right, I have wasted enough energy on this man. He can't even figure out how to fight for his family, even though I truly believe he still wants it.

But I'm done waiting for something that will probably never happen!

My kids need to see me let go and move on and show them that despite this experience we can still live a good life. They need to let go too. Dad will never be the man they remember and we need to start accepting and adjusting to that and working with what we've got left.

And here's a 2x4 waiting to happen. First on my agenda, getting me some SF!!!(Already in the works!) I haven't been "married" for over a year....I'm a grown woman with my own needs, I'm tired of taking care of everyone else's, it's time I do something for me! And it's not diet, not excercise(well, sort of), not shopping, not getting a new haircut, not soaking in a bubblebath with a good book!!

I'm not a christian so save the lecture based on God's message...not being disrespectful here, just being honest...I'm tired of the whole damn thing. Being the good girl, the good Mom, the good wife....and I don't need the guilt trip on top of it. I've got enough of that thank you very much!

I just want to feel like a woman again...in the most physical, sensual way...and I'm not afraid of going after what I want. Not anymore.

ENOUGH!

I'm moving on with my life. And I'm taking a huge step in that direction by reclaiming something what I miss and want!

Compare it to an A, go ahead. I don't care anymore. I don't consider myself unfaithful.

What I have been unfaithful to is my identity, my pride, my sexuality....I can go on and on...

I'm DONE. Oh have I said that already. I'M DONE!

I'm putting my "dancing shoes" on and I'm going out!!!

There I feel better already and I haven't even been touched yet.

Do I sound different? Well, I feel different!

Thanks for listening, thanks for the advice everyone, the support, everything!

I'm moving on!

Well I thought I went to my post here for a second. I am feeling for you I can really say I KNOW HOW you are feeling. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I'm sorry, I have no words of encouragement <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I feel the same. I am getting to were I cannot see H through the fog anymore either it seams hopeless I know. If you have to think about if you love me that much then don't...

I feel bad writing this to you, but I know how you feel and I wish you would e-mail me and we can talk. I feel we can at least be some help to each other. I want to put on my dancing shoes also! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> No2no@wmconnect.com

Jumpin Jehosefat, Shugah!

What's going on, girl? Was there some single thing that took you over the edge?

I know you've been going thru some tremendous ups and downs lately. What triggered this?

Do you think it's just a roller coaster low and you'll recover in a few days?

We can talk if ya want.

A whole year of this crap is what's thrown me over the edge.

And it's actually about f#*n time!

And I actually think this is a rollercoaster HIGH!

And I'll feel even better in a few days!

Hello.... did you read my post to ya. Think we can talk? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Please.........

Look I can dance lol ---^^^----^^^^^^____ sorry I am a little rusty been awhile.lol

I hope you are doing better today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I know I keep saying this, but I know just how you are feeling! When I read your post those are the words I am trying to get out also. Please if you need to talk or vent I am here, we all are.

No2,
Please check your e-mail address that you gave me. Your e-mails are being returned undeliverable.
Thanks!

I just checked in and read your post on the 24th .

WOW that was great !

I mean , thats ecactly when I knew to throw in the towel (before fws came begging back before MB)

Thats how I felt , hey you are a women , tes a mom but you need to have an IDENITY of your own .

Go and get it , let the chips fall where they may .

I guess some call that PLAN B in away .

He knows the way back , thats it stop holding someones hand who is letting yours fall to the side all the time .

Leave those kids with a sitter 1 a week and live .

get the hair cut and do it up GIRL!!!!!

Find who you where before yo where a WIFE,and MOTHER !!!!!

ITs ok to do this it does not make you a bad mom , it will make you a happy one as well .

Good Luck to you !!!

See I told you my mind is fried. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I am so sorry. Please try again.

[ February 25, 2004, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: No2nos ]

I'd skip the letter to him, Shugah. When BSs are ready to call it quits, they write letters saying so, get a whiny response from the WS, and that loops them back in and prolongs the death of the thing for days and weeks.

If you're truly done, just be done. Don't make any speeches or letters. He'll figure it out.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hope you have a good day.lol

No2!
Very nice day, thankyou! I also recieved the following e-mail. "THANKYOU!!!", so I wasnt the only one having a nice day!

A.M. Martin
THe letter was sent on friday! It was long and filled with everything that I needed to say...WH probably won't get half of it but it felt good to write and SEND! I removed any mention of OW per Sparkles suggestion. IT was just about us and our children.
It feels as though a huge weight has been lifted from me. I've actually given myself permission to move on and have begun to do so!
I couldn't end a 20 yr. marriage with out getting some things off my chest! That's just me!

You are sounding good! I here what you are saying. Let the next door to your life open for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, if it works for you...

Hello <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hope everything is good.

Things not so good really at the moment.

17 yr. old S issues. The past few weeks have seen a spiral in his behaviour, and yesterday things reached a low. He didn't come home last night, stayed at friends, the Dad called to let me know he was there and then S called me later.

I'm hoping I can get him to counseling, but that has been an uphill battle. He is very angry with WH and it is coming out in how he is behaving.

I'm sure it will work out...just trying to stand firm with him.

How bout you? I'll email when I have a minute, just been out straight or exhausted!

Update...after sending my 6 page kiss off letter 2 weeks ago, I was ready to move on.
I didn't expect any results except maybe anger or attitude at least from WH.

His next visit up to see the kids, resulted in his sharing that he wants to stop drinking...acknowledging that it may help him to think clearer about "things"...the A is not going well...hmmmm, who knew it wouldn't last!

He actually listened to me describe the A as an addiction also, something he never would have done just a few months ago!

I'm not sure he can do the work it takes to beat these addictions, however in his own words, "maybe the fact that I"ve admitted it is a first step". Let's hope so.

I'm still moving on...when and if the A stops completely, and I am still "available", I will do whatever I can to support him.

Fast forward to sunday night....I helped the A to a long overdue death! For now at least it seems to be over. Time will tell if it is over for good.

I called WH's cell to see if he had made a support desposit into my account. I could here bimbo in the background and her kids.

Well, nothing sets me off like the sound of her voice and 1/2 a bottle of wine!! LOL!

I called WH right back and proceeded to read him the riot act. "You lying piece of s#*t, you are no more "confused" than the man in the moon, you continue to do nothing to figure out what the hell you want....you are just scamming me with all this talk of trying to figure it out....

He hangs up...I call back, he won't pick up.

I don't give up! I call the OW's #, we talk briefly, just long enough to tell her that he's lying to both of us, tell her some of the stuff he's been saying to me...she says, "he said that?", OH YEAH BABY!, and then I drop the bombshell that I've been holding onto for a few weeks....
Did he tell you that we slept together?

Oh, I wish I could have been there for the fireworks...

I called her back when I knew he was probably gone...she called me a liar, because of course, he was denying it! I gave her enough details to make it believable...
Give her the message that she is just another one of his many addictions...(I've done my homework sweetheart!)
She asked me well, why would you still want him..."hmm, not sure that I do, can't believe a word he says...but I'm not giving up...but better yet, why do YOU want him, you know he's a liar and a cheat?
She replies.."yeah, I guess your right about that! Thanks for the info."

I believe it was about to end soon anyways...I just wasn't patient enought to let it die a natural death....

WH calls later..."are you happy now?, did you have your fun?"
OH, yes, dear, it wasn't bad for a sunday night!
He says,"I was going to dump her anyways, Dump her before I got dumped."
Oh please!

He spewed some venom for a bit...I hate you...I'm never coming back...blah, blah, blah!
I've heard this all before!

Then later, he was much calmer...talking about an amicable divorce, "generous" settlement, and then....what if I give up this job and can't find one back home, and then we don't get along, I won't have anything...I'm actually relieved, and I"m not drinking so I'm feeling better already"

Although said sarcastically, I wonder how much truth there is to that last statement! It's obvious he still hasn't a clue as to what he wants to do or should be doing.

He's so messed up right now...I hope his little bitty head is spinning like a top!

I'm not sure I'd even want the b*#stard back anymore...but man, I do like the way things are playing out!

I never knew vengeance would taste this sweet!

Amidst the pain and anguish that my children, teen, continue to exhibit...this pathetic excuse for a man continues to refuse to take ownership for anything he has done.
I'm sick to death of it!

Ah, but I had fun last night...out for a little "moving on" fun....What else is a girl to do!

Keep you posted...keep up the good fight people!

As they say, it's not over till the fat lady sings...and this ole mama has just begun to warm up the vocal chords!

Bravo, Shugah!!! I cheered when I read your post. Good going! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Shugah-

Isn't it amazing how a little pinprick of truth can burst a whole balloon? I applaud you for injecting justice into your life and the lives of your family, including your WH. No matter how this turns out you have maintained your stance that the A is wrong and you won't just accept it, even when it gets difficult. I'm picturing you with a cape, some tights and a mask, and something like "Super Shugah" across your chest. You go girl!

How are things with the house? Can you keep it? And the DV papers? And the kids, how are they doing?

Please take care of yourself, even superheroes need some rest.

Lablady

Great job WOMEN !!!!

Now sit back again and settle down , this is when you confuse the crap out of him , he may think that you stiring up trouble is that YOU will not move on at all .

Now no talking again , it will drive him crazy not knowing what you will do .

GET some rest and don't be suprised if this OW trys to stir up some trouble of her own , BE STRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stand your ground .

Mel,LL & 3,

Thanks for the support!
Yup, the DV is moving forward...WH knows what he has to do to stop it! Just not sure that he will.
Kids are doing ok considering.
17 yr.old was out of the house for a couple of weeks, staying with friend, for a "cooling Off" period. He's justifiably angry with WH.
He's home again and seems to be settling in...rearranging his room, etc. Good sign, that he's sticking around and I can keep an eye on him.
Finances still suck, so that's a day to day struggle. But we get by, somehow...

5 yrs. ago I never could have imagined being here, never mind surviving it!! I often wonder what another 5 yrs. will bring...
Life is funny that way....full of surpises!

Godd for you Sugar!!

I love Plan B!! Whether or not it brings home the WS, it still in the end brings about justice and a sense of control for the BS.

Now, as said above...be quiet and see what happens. There is a storm brewing at the OW's house. In the end, she wont be with him. And you might not want him either. But if you do, you will only allow him back when he is the husband he is supposed to be. Either way, you win!!

So, keep it up. I believe that relationship is now over. Now, let's see if there is any integrity left in that man.

In His arms.

Ok, I'll be honest, I'm a little on edge.

I want to be calm. But I know WH is angry. Tonight, when I called to get my weekly support amt., he was once again talking about a divorce settlement and making it quick.

He's not coming up this weekend to see the kids.

I'm really ready to move on, and I"m scared!
I'm scared that he'll finally figure it all out and I won't be here anymore.
I'm scared that it will take too long.
I'm scared that it won't happen at all.

2 weeks ago, he kissed his hand and placed it on my head....that meant so much to me at the time...he was really close to something...I could feel it....and now I feel as though it will never get to that point again.

On the other hand, we've been here before, and a hell of a lot worse.

I'm feeling less strong today than I have been in a long time. Maybe I'm just expecting too much too soon.
LOL!, it's only been 15 friekin months!

Thanks for listening.

Calm down, Shugah!

You can't answer all these questions right now.

Ever hear the expression "They'll get cool in the same skins they got hot in"? Who knows what's happening on his end.

All you can do is be consistent.

Thinking out loud here for a moment....

Let's assume the A is really over.
Let's assume WH is angry with me for my part in it's demise.
Let's assume then that there is some withdrawal also going on.

Is there anything I can do to help with the withdrawal, turn the anger around and ultimately lessen the probablility of the A's return?

Or should I continue to go on my way and hope that I have already laid the groundwork that will lead WH home should he choose to do so?

I want to assume that WH remembers the good stuff, will recognize what's important again, miss what he's turned his back on for so long and begin the journey home.

Does he need my help...or is this something that will have to be a solo journey?

I guess deep down I know. I've done all I can for now.

He needs help, but not from you. Do nothing!! Stay out of the way.

He is back and forth for a reason. He is hurting, and he wants it to stop. This will not happen overnight. So just relax, grab a bag of popcorn and watch the show. nothing has changed for you yet. Today is the same as yesterday. for him, changes are happening minute by minute, and he doesnt like them. He is in constant pain. it will be him that figures his way out of it. But anything you do or say will be taken wrong, so just dont do it.

Remember how much pain you felt when your husband went with the OW? Well, now he gets to feel it. Let him!!! He needs to. This is the ONLY way he can have the energy to get himself out of the mess he created.

Hang on Shugah. It has been a long road. But my intuition is that the road is coming to an end very soon.

In His arms.

On one hand I wish I could give up on this M, totally and finally! On the other hand I'm finding it impossible to let go.

I'm so very tired of dealing with everything. The stress of single-parenting 3 of our 4 children still at home.
The stress of finances...do I pay the mortgage this month(last months!), get heating oil, pay day care or buy food. Hmmm...can't pay them all, and WH just says I don't have any more to give you! "Let's just rush this divorce along so that you can get a settlement"

I feel the joy in my life has been drained out. It's just a job now. Raise the kids, pay the bills, get through one more day.

WH is still angry with me for helping to end his doomed A. Today's statement..."I was trying, I felt a spark and then you had to break up my relationship" HUH????

So, even though he admits the A was not going well, and that he was trying with me, it is because of what I did to end the A, that he will not try anymore. He hates ME!

What the f#**k did I do? I really want to know?
I'm the one holding it all together despite his abandonment of his family and I'M the bad guy!!
Go figure!

So basically, he now wants nothing more to do with me over this. I'm not sure what I want anymore.

I hardly even like him anymore. What's there to love....a man who gives up his family to end up with NOTHING!

And then there is me, fighting for a M that is based on what????

I have to be the world's biggest fool! To think so little of myself that I would even consider wanting this relationship again.

For the past few weeks since the supposed A breakup, WH's anger seemed to subside as predicted.

However, my own frustration and emotional levels went to the extreme, especially with the "loss" of yet another family member from our home.
17 yr. old decided to move out.
From my perspective, just another person "running away" from problems and responsibilities, the 3rd person in a year that has left our home.

WH seemed understanding over my emotional state the night S left and I wanted to "walk out" on it all too.

It seems a lonely place for the three of us left especially since I am estranged from my own family over all of this mess.

Holidays suck! Me and the two young ones, home alone, I'm not cooking the big holiday meals anymore...for what?, why traditions, whose around to celebrate them?

WH never even made an Easter Morning call, to ask about Easter Bunny visit. He called late that night after they were asleep.

WEll, apparantly WH spent Easter with OW at her brother's! "We're still friend". Whatever the hell that means!
So, while me and the kids spent a lonely holiday at home, WH had a nice big "family" holiday with someone elses family!

We did talk for some time....he knew it hurt, but I did not become angry...I tried to explain it from our perspective....
I still feel he is confused about what he wants, but he is so STUCK, that it seems hopeless at times.
If he stays there much longer, the A will surely rekindle if it hasn't already.

It's been a very emotional week....I am working very hard at keeping things under control.

Hi Shugah,

I'm sorry that you are hurting but I read your most recent past posts and I saw you starting to read too much into what was going on with WH and I was worried.

Like Mortarman said stay in Plan B.Why do you still talk with WH? Holidays are tough that's for sure,when the family is broken but our children deserve to have that happiness and who else is going to give it to them? Not our selfish WS's.You have to just do it and make the effort to make it a happy time as much as it can be.If the mom is sad then the kids will be too.

I don't know why you are estranged from your own family but if they can't be a part of your life right now,maintain that focus on your kids.That's what I do even though both families are supporting me.

Get back into the safety and security of Plan B and lick those wounds.You sounded so strong before and then look what has happened.Interaction with your WH has hurt you,nothing changed and you are left holding the bag.Yeah WH may be stuck and he may be forever stuck but you don't have to be part of it.

I know this may sound strange but do you have any pets? I have a wonderful dog named Pepper.She is a beautiful Border Collie/Aussie mix and she is really such a part of our family.She really brightens the day for my kids and for me too.When I was on the floor crying a couple weeks ago,she actually came over and was wimpering and she put her paws on me! She was concerned for her "master".She really has helped me get through these trying times,if only just to listen to me or require that I get out to go for those walks each day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jsut a thought that might help you and your loneliness in the home.Hang in there.

O

Thanks Ogirl,

Plan B has been something that I have gone in and out of so much that I really don't think it will have any effectiveness now except to help end the relationship once and for all.
I know that it will remove me from the pain.
But I am still not ready to give up on this man.
The D is in the works and despite that, I do not want to give up on this relationship and thus my continued contact with WH for pulse checks etc.

He has been away from us for so long, and OW is so accessible and there, I am sure that the A will start up again or is continueing.

I really do wish I could let go. I know that I CAN do this by myself, I just dont WANT to! Big difference.

As for the DOG! Yeah, we have one, not much source of comfort though, just one more responsiblity that has become mine that I didn't ask for! WH & S were the ones who paid him most attention and now they are both gone.
Yeah, lucky me!
I am very resentful right now of everything I have to be responsible for.

I made Easter as happy as possible for the kids given what I have to work with. My feelings of loss are overwhelming lately and I'm having a very hard time focusing on keeping a happy face for the kids.

I think the desperation comes from knowing that if indeed this M is over, I have many decisions to make that will not be easy. Sell the house and move? The thought of packing in itself, overwhelms me not to mention the very real reluctance of 13 yr.old. Find homes for pets?
Sell of some of our "stuff" to accomodate move.

It's just all too much for me to absorb yet the time is getting nearer to make these decisions.

I know,I'm sorry that this is so hard for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> If you were my neighbor I would come over and help you out.

Maybe all this recent activity with your WH is what is making you feel like you do.Perhaps in a day or two you might feel better.I know when I have these interactions with WH I feel so poorly but then when he goes away(like he's gone all day today) if feel so much more like myself.I hope you feel a bit better soon.

Sometimes I wonder if the pain that we feel is because we are holding on to what could be and not letting go of what IS.If after letting go and a period of mourning,that there isn't more to be had out there,happiness,joy? I don't know.I was just thinking about that again.The eternal question: just how long do I go on in this situation? Two years like Dr.Harley says? More or less? A personal best? One day at a time I suppose.

{{{HUGS}}}

O

I posted this on CHESTNUTS thread...

Sorry, I'm just having such a hard time being convinced (of trying NC AGAIN).

Lost Bird,
It's been 15 mos! If being away from us for this long hasn't moved him to miss us enough to come home....how will less contact work now?
Your W knows my struggle with this. She knows from her own experience how scary it was to have no contact, not know what was going on with a WH, is he moving further away...is it time to D...move on....hold on...
NC is a scary place to be...

I've been in and out of it over the past year...it seems the best progess was actually made when we had "good" contact and were able to make a connection.
That seems to be WH biggest doubt, that we can actually connect again...how is that supposed to happen with NC?

I'm really struggling...I'm Lower than I've been in a long while...

Not sure I have the strength to try NC again or just need to throw in the towel. Oh yeah, I've tried that too....and here I am again...

Hi Shugah,

I know where you are. I know your desperation and your frustration. However, I also know that we both failed (you and I!) in terms of keeping a strong Plan B, at least, for me, since December. We both felt we were doing the right thing in keeping the line of communication open, of showing our WS the path home. Yet, it wasn't working, was it? Is it?

We hear from the MB folks. We hear from the SYMC folks. We hear from many, many, many marriage experts that the way to resolve this - one way or the other - is Plan B, or whatever term is used for full and total separation from the other spouse.

Now, in addition to that, we have Lost Bird's testimonial, telling us exactly what he felt and how he reacted each time there was contact. And we have Tak on the SYMC board telling you she wishes she had one - just one - success story to back up the way you are handling it. But she does not.

Possibly the difference between us, between you and me, is that I kept a very strong PB for 6 months. Total n/c. Total. It was only in December when I heard from Cerri that he wanted to come home that we resumed periodic contact. That was my downfall, and created setback after setback. Why? Well, Cerri once told us I moved at the speed of 78 rpm (for those of you who remember "records" LOL) and he moved at 33 1/3 rpm. So, naturally, I was pushing, pushing, "Why aren't you ready? Why haven't you sent the n/c letter? What are you waiting for?", etc., and it succeeded in driving him away and erecting a wall between us.

So does any contact we have with them. Hindsight is 20/20, yeah, but looking back (you or me), how attractive did we appear to our spouses when we have had the interaction we have had? I know you need some interaction because of the little ones, but Shugah, if you really really want to give this one more try, let's try it. Let's go to Plan B. Get an Email Intermediary from Cerri (I am one and would be glad to assist) and let's give this one more shot.

Isn't it worth it? Let's not have you experience any more loss.

Hugs!

ISG

I'm considering it.

WH has no computer though, and is limited to his work cell phone for communication.

I tried an itermediary before and I don't want to put anyone in that difficult position again. Although I feel that WH's anger is no where near what it was before, there is still the potential for it to erupt and spill onto this 3rd party.

But thanks for the offer!

I just read 2ofakinds "Recovery for Dummies". I'm considering sending it to WH. (except for a few lines referring to the risk of Plan B)

WH's major hurdle is believing that there is a way for us to recover. He thinks it is too far gone, too much has happened, NO ONE comes back from this!

He has SAA, but don't believe he has ever done more than skim it.
2ofakind did a great job getting to the basics, maybe WH will recognize the possibilities of recovery if he reads it?

I'm so afraid that the A has picked up again!!
I'm also considering one last shot at Exposure.
Although I know OW's family knows about A and hosts WH & OW in their homes, perhaps a letter from me will put pressure on? Find out who her priest is?

Thanks for your ongoing support. I have a lot to think about and decisions to make.
I'm tired and worn out.

ISG,

There's at least one success story...done the way I'm doing it. YOU!

How do we know that you are where you are because of PB or lack of it!

Who knows, maybe your FWH would have taken another x years if not for your pressure!

Who really knows????

Roughroads April 8th post....
after a SH session....

we also talked again about contact (how much should i have and what kind of contact I have), my concern was if i bombarded him w/stuff from me then he would think that i was clingy and needy. so i had initiated little contact and tried to keep our conversations very brief. However, SH said i need to initate some kind of contact at least every other day. i was really surprised at this. again my thoughts were of being needy and if i emailed him he may not even read it, if i mailed him something he might just throw it away. but SH if nothing else it will make him think about me and prevent him from compartmentalizing. it doesn't necessarily matter if he doesn't read what i send, it's still a thought of ME. he said to be very brief and factual and just try to convey that i am still here and see what's going on as a variable because he (my H) does not.

??????
this makes sense to me...

<<Bump>>

<Bump>

Happy to see ya posting again , sad to hear all the pain still ongoing .

I read some not all replies . I think you should do what ever you want , go for it in any way shape or form . If going dark does not work then don't and I agree the 3rd party thing may not be for you . IF you want to pressure then do it .

Listen there comes a time when you have to just move ahead in your own way , not everything according to the princepals .

Its kind of like saying at this point what could possiabley happen .

WELL he could come back , hes already been gone and you have held all this together so you are already in that place and know that place .

BUT before you do anything , just make sure it does not set YOU back from any progress you have made for your SELF !

Making any sense here??

IF you want to send him the post , do it , if it don't awaken anything in that very thick head of his then it don't , nothing ventured nothing gained . (is that the right use for that saying ) ????

My last vent effort to my FWS was a call ,

I told him listen I tried everything , begging (in beging) crying, listening to to babbel, being nice , ect. either ya come clean and want to come home or thats it I GIVE !!! MERCY I am done I will force myself to go on dates and had 3 offers already and I will start sleeping around just as you are cause I got needs as well . Then I hung up .... I remember the next 3 weeks I dressed ro kill I was not around when he picked up kids I was on cell phone every time he called kids at home they would tell him when he asked who is mom talking to they say I don't know she on cell ,,, he eventually started calling and then came home .

I was doing nothing wrong of course , and all this was pre MB . But I was at wits end ,, needed to get mad enough to let go .

well I am rooting for ya , I do hope one day soon to read he is back ,,, but if not I pray for your happiness always and the wonderful life you WILL have no matter the out come .

3is,
Thanks!

I know that there are no guarantees either way, but I don't think anyone here can be for sure, certain, that it was Strict Plan B that brought a WS home.

Plan A took place when WH was VERY thickly fogged in! What good did it do then?

Now, he is poking his head out a bit, and I just think that now is the time to try to reach him!

IMO, Plan B now only sends the message...it's too late, it's over, I've moved on completely...and that message to a WS who is unable to see that recovery is possible ...is putting the nail in the M coffin.

Yeah, it's emotional for me....either way it would be, my life is overwhelming without him...it gets to me every once in a while, holidays, kid problems, whatever...

I need to reach him...somehow...

Got a question for ya ? Does your Ws have a interst in something ,,, Football, baseball, band .???

What I am getting at is a date , withoutr him thinking date .

If its lets say a band maybe someone in concert that you can score tickets on , or a baseball game spmething he really evjoys that he hasn't done in awhile .

If so maybe you can say hey I got these tickets and I know you like this so you want to go and hang out .

No strings, nothing, just a hang out !

If maybe you could kinda PLAN A with out it being that , ya know what I am saying .

NO R talk , nothing just a good old fashion good time between 2 people who have been through he11 in life .

ANYTHING along those lines ?

Oh, I've thought that....
BIG music fan....I've entered contests for concert tix, complete with limo....on several occasions, with the thought that I'd do just that..."hey, I won these tickets.."

Sports, he'd rather takce 13 yr. old....as a matter of fact he bought a raffle ticket for tonights, Red Sox/Yankees to take S to, but apparantly mustn't have won...

If money weren't so tight, I'd definately do something like you are suggesting....IT'S WHAT WE NEED! WE used to go to concerts all the time, especially when we were young...MAJOR GOOD TIMES!

I've also thought about calling and saying I was on my way down...let's just go out!

He's coming up this weekend to see the kids, not sure what day....haven't talked since sunday...wish he would come through with the promise to help out with yard work and stay a couple of days!

!!!Great Visit!!!

More on that as soon as I can process it all.

Tryng verry hard not to think too much into it.

He's coming up next weekend, for our 20th Anniversary! He said he won't miss an occasion to have cake.

Lots of other things said today, very positive...

I'm very cautiously very optimistic!

I'll post tomorrow. Let me think about this!!

Shugah,

WE - yes, WE - are hoping for the best for you. He (LB) says to just be careful and make sure that what you think you are seeing in your H is what you are really seeing, and not what you WANT to see.

After your post to him the other night, I told him your story. It upset him greatly. I am very encouraged that he wants to help so many people here and seems to be so pro-marriage and pro-recovery.

My thoughts: keep contact to a minimum (or none at all) this week. Let him contact you about next weekend.

(fingers crossed emoticon...if only we had one).

Ya know, it's safe to post on the other board too!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wait, Shugah. I want to know what SH said. Maybe I'm confused, maybe I got mixed up about your thread.

You were in Plan B. SH says it's good not to be too strict about that anymore, even though you aren't sure OP is out of the picture?

On what basis does he say that? What is his rationale? Did he say why?

I'm in the sitch of a small town, seeing H & OW all the time. They sure don't look happy -- but I'd hesitate to contact him till it's safe to go back into the water again. But then again, he's living at her place, and since he's disabled, she's probably going to have to turf him out at some point. Who knows?

AM Martin,
Wish there was a prize to give you for:

******300th*****post on my thread!!!!

Anyways that reference to SH was something he said to Roughroad...and I believe she is still in Plan A actually....but it just made a lot of sense to me for my situation...

IS Girl,
I plan on laying low this week, just as I did last week. I'm trying very hard to not get my hopes up...

Here's some of what happened and was said during yesterdays very positive visit...

From the moment he pulled in, he began helping me with yard work...very agreeable to any chore I suggested needed to be done...

He was very happy, played with the kids, joked around, and incredibly nostalgic..."remember when we built the house and this happened" or...."I remember when you were just a baby and.."

Things he said over the course of the day..."you don't really want me back"...."if I came back you'd torture me"..."if I come back you'd have to let me burn the lawn"(after we disagreed on his lawn cleaning tactics!)....and other seemingly unimportant remarks, however, they were all said lightheartedly and at the appropriate times....

But this is the Biggie:
I suggested that I could use another day of his help...and combined with his suggestion that he and S play golf, he said he'll come up next weekend, probably sat.
Later, I mentioned that our 20th Anniv. was coming up(Sun.) and we joked about possible ways we were going to spend it based on some of our past Anniv. experiences. Then I said, "you know what I'd like for Anniv...if you'd recommit to this marriage". He just smiled.
Then later, when he was again talking about coming up next weekend, he said, "So when is our Anniv., Sunday?, well maybe I'll come up Sun. instead of sat....I never like to miss an excuse to have cake."
WHAT??? This, after I said what I said about recommitting to the Marriage...you'd think he'd be running, screaming in the opposite direction!

I had no intention of "celebrating" the day, especially to make any kind of real notice of it with the kids....so what does he have in mind?

At one point I suggested he spend the night...he said, "let me take "this" slow, I had a really good time today..."

Overall, a very good day...this was just some of the highlights...

One thing for sure, I'm not supplying no damn cake...my luck, he won't show, and I'll eat the whole darn thing myself!

Let's just see what happens.

ISGIRL,
Thanks for all of your support and "listening", thank LB for me too, I appreciate his concern.
I'll be in touch.

4 days since last contact/visit and 4 more to go until the next "supposed" visit!

I'm relatively calm but can't stop thinking about the visit and how well it went and why WH would suggest coming up for our Anniv.and whether that will actually happen and what will take place.

I'm trying to keep myself busy....or I'll drive myself crazy thinking so much about it!

Don't want to think about major disappointment that could be lurking around the corner...but at the same time wondering if potential happiness is not far away...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shugah:
 4 days since last contact/visit and 4 more to go until the next "supposed" visit!

I'm relatively calm but can't stop thinking about whether that will actually happen and what will take place.<hr /></blockquote>Shugah,

I've been following your story and have seen all your anguish. I'm so sorry you have found yourself in this position. I just want to give you one small piece of advice the "Old-Timers" around here used to say ALL the time:

When waiting for X, Y, and Z to happen:
Have NO EXPECTATIONS

This will keep you from "falling" hard if things don't go as you have anticipated.

God Bless,

I'm trying very hard not to have any expectations!!

WH called this afternoon just to "check in" and mention coming up this weekend again. He'd like to come up "sunday", but also depending on the better weather day as he wants to take S golfing.

He was very friendly, joking, etc. I did not ask about the "sunday" significance.

I really do not want to spend any time together on that day if there is NO significance for doing so. Should I bring it up, let it go or hope that he is doing this for a good reason?

Maybe I should be up front and ask, "I know you mentioned spending that day here and refering to having "cake" for our Anniv. If you have decided that there is a reason you'd like to celebrate or recognize that day, I would be happy to do so, otherwise I would prefer to spend the day quietly.

???Any thoughts???

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Shugah:
 Should I bring it up, let it go or hope that he is doing this for a good reason?

Maybe I should be up front and ask, "I know you mentioned spending that day here and refering to having "cake" for our Anniv. If you have decided that there is a reason you'd like to celebrate or recognize that day, I would be happy to do so, otherwise I would prefer to spend the day quietly.

???Any thoughts??? <hr /></blockquote>My thoughts are that you do - and say - nothing at all. Let him take the lead. I fear you may push him back into his shell. Remember, he wants to take it easy, slow. Don't sound like a needy woman, who is overly excited because H might be coming over to celebrate the anniversary.

Instead, be quiet, be hopeful, and if you do that, he may do something nice, even if it is small. Let him make the first move.

JMHO.

Some of you may remember me!

It's been over a year since my last post....A LOT has happened!

For those of you who don't remember...D-Day was Dec.21,2002

You can see from the earlier posts of this thread, there was the usual pain, chaos and drama....although the even earlier crap is hidden somewhere in the archives....

The situation continued to deteriorate after my last post....summer 04, WH introduced OW to family & friends at several events...insisting that everyone "accept & get over it"....he pretty much got the cold shoulder....I was still able to protect the children from being exposed to OW all this time...

WH continued to insist that he was "happy"....planning to marry the OW in the fall....although the A was probably failing miserably at this time....I only saw the anger and guilt...

The Divorce was proceeding....and was final by late Nov.
It did not go favorably for WH at all and his anger was obvious as he heard the Judge's decision.

4 days after the D he suddenly moved out of his out-of- state apt. without notice and returned to our home state in search of employment....he called and asked if he could stay at the house for a few days????????

My answer was no.

He stayed where he could for several weeks...during this time I believe the A was in it's final death throes....and WXH was closer to hitting bottom...

By mid Jan. or so he was sharing an apt. with our oldest S...we would see each other occasionally, kids school & sporting events, D and I would drop by or I would drop her off for short visits while I shopped, or I would invite him to visit the kids at the house if I was going to be out. He was all over the place emotionally...

By mid Feb. he finally bottomed out.

I had a decision to make and I made the only one that I could live with. I reached out my hand....

He slowly began to turn things around, did some counseling, became more pro-active and optimistic in his employment search and dealing with the kids, etc. His anger and general anxiety began to wane and we began spending time together. He was at the house alot.

He moved back into the house in April, a bit ahead of ourselves but S was giving up his apt. and well, we just decided to do it, at the time for financial reasons mostly.

Although our relationship is still evolving...we are not officially "together"....I am trying to be patient with the process....a lot has happened in a short time so I'm trying not to expect too much too soon. Some days I get discouraged and others I am very optimistic...and lately I find the good days are beginning to outnumber the bad....

The A is over and apparantly the OW has moved on to a new relationship. Slowly he is divulging information about their relationship, and of course, I find it especially interesting to hear the negative aspects of OW's personality, etc.

Despite occasional set-backs, withdrawal, fears, triggers,etc., we are learning new ways to communicate as we are both major conflict avoiders. Overall FWXH appears very happy, reconnected and is actively involved in family life again.

It's still uncertain how this will all end up, however, things continue to move in a good direction....recovery will not be easy nor will it come overnight....we have a very long way to go.

Recently we made it through some situations which I imagine must have been anxious ones for FWXH(it was for me!).....these included being around friends and family, together as a family again, for the first time since this whole saga began.....they went very well and I have noticed an even greater degree of improved attitude and happiness in FWXH since then....it's definately a relief to be over those hurdles and I think it's helped FWXH to relax a little and know that he is accepted despite his mistakes and can finally see that a true reconciliation is possible....it's a process...

So that's it in a nutshell....never give up hope....anything is possible...."hopefulperson" taught me that....and "Mimi", "Mortarman" and countless others along the way, here and elsewhere, who have encouraged and supported me along the way, THANKYOU!!

Shugah,

Good to hear from you! Somehow, I always knew that the final story had not been written on your marriage.

We are in recovery also after some bumpy times over the last two years. My advice is take it slow and work through things. Each day you do so, you build a new foundation.

If you have time, hang around and help some of the newbies. You could offer them a lot from your perspective and how you worked through this mess

In His arms.

Hi Shugah:

Great to hear from you, my MB COHORT! We, most unfortunately, started here at the same time....

What a testimony to how there is always HOPE..

NEVER GIVE UP.....

Thanks!

You know there were times when reconciliation seemed impossible and then the Divorce pushed that dream even further away....but somewhere deep down I always kept it alive....

So when the opportunity arose...I was ready to reach out.

Things have really turned a corner just in the past couple of weeks....

Mortarman...I'm so glad you that you've been able to hang in there with recovery....I know it hasn't been easy at times.

Mimi....you were one of my earliest inspirations....

I'm not sure I'm in a place where I can spend much time here...I'm trying to move past the infidelity part of my life. I'm putting to use everything I've learned and recovery takes a lot of energy...I'll pop in occasionally...

Best wishes to both of you!

Update on Recovery:

We are most definately a couple again....we work well together, play together, plan together, laugh together!

It still amazes me that we have come so far in such a short period of time and that we are where we are after such a long period of separation and turmoil...

I'm feeling happy and content overall and feel that I have put the pain of the A behind me for the most part. Oh sure, it creeps in once in awhile, there are those vulnerable moments when I remember the craziness of it all!
Like when I read some of my early posts! Ugghh...

I realize it serves no purpose to ask "How could you do this to us?"....It happened, it's over and we pretty much know how it happened, why our relationship was vulnerable to an affair, why it snowballed and continued and how and why the A ended. It's no great mystery! I did my reading, learning, counseling, plenty of it!!

I do sometimes ask FWXH questions about what was really going on for him at this time or that time....and basically he really was confused, angry, stubborn, sad, guilty....I don't think the good times of the A came close to erasing any of that for him.

I choose to concentrate on the here and now. Instead of wasting any energy on dredging up old feelings and memories of the A, I want to spend it on making our relationship the best it can be. Moving forward....

He's home. I see it in his eyes....when he looks at me while he's hugging our D after she's run to the door to greet him....that look says so many things...."this is everything I need....how did I think I could live without this....life is good"

We're still healing. The older kids still make comments that tell me they haven't worked it all out....it will take time....FWXH will have to continue to prove through his ACTIONS that he loves them....he's doing that.

He tells me and shows me everyday that he loves me. He tells me that he never stopped loving me.....he jokingly refers to my never ending and annoying intrusions into his fantasy world (I was not a successful Plan B'er....although I highly recommend it!) I was a nut sometimes! My emotions would take control.....I made it difficult for him to walk into the sunset by doing whatever I could to protect the kids and myself.....including preventing OW from being around the kids....

We communicate better....we don't just ignore each other's moods any more....we acknowledge them, try to explain why we were feeling that way....and move on....we are working on that conflict avoidance thing that we did so well in the old days!!

As for the official marraige thing....well, I'm just not very hung up on it....our Divorce never really made me feel "not married"...maybe someday we'll remarry.
We still sometimes refer to each other as "my husband" or "my wife", it's habit, it's less complicated....I heard him say to someone, "we've been married 21 years"....huh?, well if that's how he feels now, who am I to argue!!!

I know that many people who knew the situation don't understand how I could take him back...but they are not my concern....we all know that they have no idea what they would do if they were confronted with an A! None of us here did!!

I don't post alot anymore...I lurk mostly...but I will try to post to Mimi's "thoughts from a FBW" thread...if I can help at all I will.

Hang in there people....work hard on your personal recoveries....READ, READ....my favorites...."Why we Love" by Helen Fisher, "Priate Lies" by Frank Pittman, all of the Harley's books and articles, Penny Tupy's ebook "Overcoming Infidelity". There's good stuff in all of it!

PLEASE take time out from the whole Infidelity thing sometimes....it's easy to get burned out and frustrated and overwhelmed by all the pain here!

Hold tight to HOPE....but don't forget to Live your life to the fullest!

Thanks for the inspiration Shugah!

I feel that this D that my WH wants so badly may be the only thing that could ever make him see the light. We have been divorced almost 2 other times and he has not be able to go through with it. We will see.

Thanks for the hope I think I may always have hop as I still love him so much but my love isn't great enough--he must want to be a better person and want the realtionship to work. THe false recoveries are the hardest IMO.

Shugah,

Reading this thread has given me so much more hope. Between your and Mimi's threads I do see were what we feel is the impossible can happen.

I would like to ask you a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1. Did your WH ever say he was going to be with the OW forever and that he feels like they were meant to be together. Like they had been together in another life before this one.

2. Did he allow the OW to get away with things that he would have never allowed you to do? Mt WH allows OW to talk to him in a rude disrepsctful way and boss him around. My DD says she talks to him like a dog... I never could have done that and got away with it....

3. Why do they allow the OW such liberties when we the wife could have never been allowed to? I would never want to talk to my H that way but I don't understand why its ok for the OW to do it....

Anyhow thank you for posting your story. And if you feel like answering my questions ty again....

May you and your family continue down this wonderful road you are on. God Bless...

Hurting:

You know how I follow you....

Quote

Did your WH ever say he was going to be with the OW forever and that he feels like they were meant to be together. Like they had been together in another life before this one.

This is part of the STANDARD WS SCRIPT..

My H and the FOW were "soulmates" as well....

Quote

My DD says she talks to him like a dog...

How can you REALLY KNOW THIS IS TRUE? There is no way that you can understand the nature of their R and you do not need to..

Try not to compare yourself to her..

His relationship with her is NOTHING like his RELATIONSHIP with you...You are his WIFE...she is not and likely never will be....

Mimi,

I knew you would follow me. lol

Your my rock and the one I look up to.....

As far as how she talks to him DD is not the only one who has hear this. My SIL also hear it at one point when she saw them both together at the bowling alley.

I pray Mimi she will never be his wife....

I guess I am just having a wondering day again..... Its the weekend you know, thats when things seem to happen around here....

Hurting,

1. Yes...."I've never felt this way before"....etc. etc. etc. He claimed they were planning on marrying....

2. OW wanted her freedom but wanted WH kept around as her playmate....they fought alot

3. There are no sane reasons for why WS's behave as they do, don't waste another second trying to figure it out....you can try to understand why your relationship was vulnerable to an A....and sometimes that is difficult to understand as well.

Thank you for answering my questions.

You would thinl I would stop trying to figure this out but I am the type who wants to understand everything.

But I realize none of this is logical so actually there are no answers.

I do understand what happen in our M the last year or so that made the conditions possible and I am doing everything in my power to fix my part in it. But no matter what I did or didn't do it was not my fault he choose this way to handle it....

Shugah,

Just finished reading your 2 threads.

Thank you for giving us an update.

Your story certainly helps in reminding us that no matter how bad a situation looks, one never really knows where it will end up!

I can assure you it certainly helps us in our 'hopeless moments' as you yourself experienced.

I am in PLAN B and it's curious to see how at times I have the same feelings and questions you had when separated.

I am working really hard at N/C in PLAN B, and so at moments it can drive me crazy not to know where WS is at emotionally, etc. It scares me to be so 'distant' physically and emotionally because it makes it hard to imagine the possibility of recovery of M in the future.

My WS had the same fears as yours: leave/lose OW and then no M to recover, because he can't imagine overcoming obstacles created with A.

The first step however has been made very clear (but obviously it does not come with any guarantees!) - end A with OW.

For now, my WS is choosing OW over his family, as yours did at one time. I really do hope my WS comes out of the fog soon inspite of the fact that he is working really hard at staying in it!

Yours story is very encouraging, but has also made it clear that the road is a tough one either way when it involves an A.

Good luck with your recovery.

Thank you Lunamare, recovery is going well.....One day at a time....

Hang in there with Plan B. The temptation to have contact and get a pulse check can be overwhelming, but in the end only sets you back!

I'm hopeful that my story, with all it's twists and turns can help others to be hopeful and to avoid some of the mistakes that I made.

BUMP for sharing encouragement...