I'd really like to hear a few answers to Shugah's question: how is NC between H & W different than NC between WS and OP? If one is supposed to help them forget, why is the other supposed to help them remember?

I've wondered this myself, and would appreciate some enlightenment about the mechanics.

The NC between OW and WS is because the A is like an ADDICTION, like an ADDICTION to DRUGS OR ALCOHOL. The HARLEYS use the same treatment approach as recommended for someone withdrawing from a substance.

The marriage on the other hand is a healthy substitute. The more the WS has to depend on the ADDICTIVE RELATIONSHIP, the more they are expected to realize its unhealthiness.

The A and the M are like apples and oranges or rather a rotten apple vs. a ripe apple. The same principles do not apply to a marriage as apply to an A.

The answer to Shugah's question is quite simple. NC is intended to do the SAME thing to the WS...to put the WS in a position where only ONE person is meeting their needs. Of course, that means they will be withdrawing from the other.

Now, when we go to Plan B (and the answer above is the reason we must have a good Plan A...please read on to why that is), BSs are trying to essentially say that they are pulling out of the equation. That the OP now has to meet EVERY need. And, to top it off, the WS must go through withdrawal symptoms from their BS, ESPECIALLY after a successful Plan A.

When the WS comes home and re-engages the relationship, this also forces the BS to meet ALL of their needs. Even the ones that the WS was meeting. At the same time, the WS will be going through withdrawal from the OP. So, as you can see, the method is the same. BUT...the results are VERY different!

In the majority of cases, when NC happens in Plan B between the BS and WS, the OP finds himself/herself in the position of having to fulfill ALL of the WSs needs. And most of the time, they didnt sign up for that. They made no vows of sicker, poorer...until death. They dont have kids with the WS (sometimes they do!). For most, they dont have a history with the WS. And even with all that, they dont have the bond that God puts together when two people marry.

So, the OP finds out very quickly that they were better off when the BS was helping out. In a way, they come to wish that the BS would get back into the picture. Their relationship is based on fantasy, lies, deceit. Then reality comes, everyday stuff between the two of them...and it isnt fun anymore.

They didnt sign up for this. So, the fighting begins, the nagging. They begin to get on each others nerves, as the WS latches on and tries to suck the life out of the OP. They are in pain now (withdrawal from BS and not having the needs the BS meets being met). And so they come full force at the OP, demanding they be there for them. After all, they are "soulmates" arent they? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Eventually, in a good Plan B, the WS realizes that there are needs the OP just isnt going to meet. So, they start contact back up with the BS, or at least try. They now have the first wisp of clean air, out of the fog. So, they take a look at what they left behind. Is it still there? Could they get back the needs being met that they had before?

So, they go for cake-eating. They try anything and everything to get the BS back in the game, so they can continue getting their needs met by both the BS and OP. After all, that is when all their needs were being met, and they werent in pain. Right now, it is painful.

But, they find out from the BS in a good Plan B, that there is no possibility now of cake eating, of fence sitting. They will have their needs met by one, or the other. Now, the WS sees that no matter which way they go, there is pain. They become frantic in their attempt to get OP to meet their needs. They then become frantic in getting BS engaged. Even to the point, as my wife said when she first came out of the fog, to show up for no other reason than to argue...because at least an argument can soften the pain.

But a BS that doesnt play, evetually forces a WS into a "coming to Jesus" moment. They now realize that the pain isnt stopping. They realize they have ZERO chance of the OP meeting their needs effectively on their own (how many WSs have come on here and talked about how they knew it was over with OP, but just couldnt end it?) but they stay for awhile longer, getting whatever fix they can. In the meantime, they begin to wonder (especially afte a Good Plan A) if the BS was right...the PBL was right. Could the situation at home change? Could the BS effectively meet all of their needs? I mean, they now know there is no chance in the OP doing that...but maybe there is a chance that their spouse will. They had done it before.

So, they finally break down (a lot of the time, by this point, the OP has had enough playing house and the pain on their side and has decided to leave the WS), and come home.

Now, we switch to a different pain. Now they are withdrawing from the OP and needing the BS to meet their needs. Well, as soon as the withdrawal period is over, as long as the BS keeps from LBing, then meeting the WSs needs is possible. And over time, the WS begins to believe in the changes...and the marriage is repaired.

So, the idea is the same in either case...to force the WS into withdrawal, and to having whomever they are with meet all their needs. In most cases, that is nearly impossible for the OP to do (and is why 95% of those relationships fail). In the case of the BS, if they are smart and follow the MB plan, then there is a very good shot that the marriage will be repaired.

I hope that answers the question.

In His arms.

Of course, as usual, MORTARMAN, the GREAT ONE, says IT ALL!!!

Mortarman, your scenario describes what's going on now in my R to a tee!!! You are A MASTER!!!
FWS has realized that I am not changing and can meet all of his needs. Now, if only he can maintain NC. As I said before, he didn't go back this time despite his lapse because he remembered the pain of his withdrawal from me during my PLAN B!!! He believes that cake-eating will no longer be allowed.

You've got it soooo RIGHT!!!!

My post crossed Mimi's. I was going to say: "Mortarman is a miracle."

You wrote: "They then become frantic in getting BS engaged. Even to the point, as my wife said when she first came out of the fog, to show up for no other reason than to argue...because at least an argument can soften the pain."

I did have the feeling that H's sudden request to get his stuff out of my house was not prompted by an emergency as it was an excuse for contact.

Thanks for the replys, very helpful.
I suppose it's best I not initiate any contact or meetings. I'll let WH do that.
He did say he was going to try to get up for Halloween night to see D, wondered what our plans for trick 0r Treating were. He's not sure if he can get out of work early.
I'll take it from there, if he wants to join in I'll let him, but I'll play cool yet cordial.
I will TRY to avoid R talk, etc.
I know that letting him join in is letting him get his needs met....
AT some point I just feel that I have to let him in a little bit after everything that has happened in recent weeks...so that he can see that even after the hell he put me through, I am still here.

HEY!!!

I was wondering (WORRYING) about the exact same thing! How could no contact with the other person help them get over their addiction to the affair, but no contact with the betrayed spouse (in Plan B) not just help the wayward spouse totally get over the betrayed spouse?

Thanks SO MUCH for the explanation!

I was particularly concerned since my husband admitted to me several times he was being careful to keep me at a distance - trying to remind himself to keep hating me, to stay angry at me, not let himself fall back in love with me, and veing "nervous" that he sometimes felt "turned on" by my appearance or my attempts to hug him sometimes. Also, when she broke up with him for over a month he called her once or twice a day but when we were separated he admitted he'd go as logn as he could (a few weeks) before calling us and if he didn't instantly get the full green light from me he'd withdraw again. So he definitely was making sure the odds were stacked against me. I even laughed about it one when talking to him (probably a mistake) that it must mean something that he had to try so hard to not make sure he ended up with her instead of me.

I was just trying to cheer myself up and boost my courage to do a Plan B by focusing on the fact the my husband and the other woman are having a LOT of problems in their relationship. She had "been assured" his family was totally out of his life so when I started Plan A 3 months ago she flipped out and started acting very jealous and controlling. She basically competed with my daughters for his time, calling him during their visitation with their father to check up on him. Apparently she was giving him ultimatum to choose between his family and her. He was even skipping work sometimes to try to fit in time with both. She was breaking up with him weekly during first 2 months and entire last month of Plan A! AND when I checked his cell phone record there was trouble over something (not related to us) before that! There were numerous short calls during say a 10 minute period from him to her. Either she was hanging up on him, refusing to pick up, or he was calling repeatedly to leave her messages. So there was plenty of trouble in paradise already (YAY!) So even though I didn't understand how my doing no contact during a Plan B wouldn't just help him get over me, I had sort of figured out that left to themselves they would probably self-destruct anyway. (BUT I was plenty worried about them maybe being in that 5%)

Thanks for the explanation. It really does help ease some of my fears and gives me needed courage to stick to Plan B. AND, even though I'm really only a couple of days into Plan B, haven't even sent the letter yet just told him over the phone, he is initiating contact, trying to see us, and went to family counseling appt. this morning!

Icedancer,

Send the letter today. Stop ALL contact with him. Go at separate times to the counselor. Do not allow him to cake eat. He is now in that pain I talked about. Dont help him...let him feel every drop of it.

Go dark...so dark, not even night vision goggles will work. But you must send the surrender letter (the PBL) before going dark.

Do it today.

In His arms.

Thanks Mortarman

"Send the letter today."

I will write it as soon as we get home from the rink tonight, send it via e-mail followed up by a snail-mail copy tomorrow (I am worried he might show up at the rinkt though like he dropped in on daughter's skating last night - if he does I will make an extremely brief statement about being willing to work on saving marriage when he stops all contact with the other woman but until then I can't have anything to do with him. Then I will not say any more and not sit near him.)

"Stop ALL contact with him."

I will stop answering the phone - let it go to the answering machine instead.

"Go at separate times to the counselor."

The family counselor wanted to meet everyone in the family separately first anyway before having us come in together. I was getting ready to go this morning because he had said he wasn't. When he called for directions I stayed home then. I was very tempted to call him afterwards but resisted. We have an appt. with the marriage counselor Saturday morning. It's a joint session and the counselor had told me at my last individual session to wait to make the appt. until my husband agreed to come with me. So I guess I should call the counselor to explain why I won't be coming? I don't want either the counselor or my husband to interpret my absence as an unwillingness to commit to working on the marriage should my husband meet the conditions of the Plan B letter. Or should I go just to make a statement in person, in front of the counselor, what must change before I will have any more contact with my husband?

"Do not allow him to cake eat. He is now in that pain I talked about. Dont help him...let him feel every drop of it."

I know what you mean because when we were separated even just brief, infrequent or hostile phone calls from him gave me some assurance that he was still thinking of me and was not totally over me yet. I am already VERY worried that he suffers more withdrawal when she breaks up with him then when he misses me. So I am very motivated to make him miss me severely right now.

Last weekend we spent together and it was VERY nice. He was with us and lots of friends all day Saturday for daughter's birthday party and with us most of day Sunday. He stayed for several hours after the birthday party to watch a movie with us. He called me honey and his pet nickname for me a couple of times. He sat near me and kept watching me, lots of eye contact and I just kept smiling. We had absolutely no arguments and I didn't bring up relationship or pressure him in any way - just enjoyed our time together. And he invited me to go skating with him every Sunday evening - adult skate session so no excuse of seeing me just because of the kids. So I feel confident that the last two days I spent with him were very positive as far as filling his love bank vs love-busting. So suddenly going into Plan B on Monday was good timing for maximizing withdrawal I guess?

"Go dark...so dark, not even night vision goggles will work. But you must send the surrender letter (the PBL) before going dark.

Do it today."

OK.

"In His arms."

Thanks. It really has been a help for me to remember that God will see us through this whatever the outcome. I have been prayign all day that God will keep us in the shelter of his arms PLUS will keep my husband in his arms. I know my husband is suffering and is scared. I pray he finds the courage and wisdom to choose the rigth path out of his pain. I have a strong fear that when we go places we will run into my husband and the other woman together. I don't honestly know how my daughters and I could deal with something like that. So I just keep praying that if it ever does happen God will protect us. This is such a strong fear for me that I am seriously considering asking my husband to move away with the other woman if he ultimately chooses her (our daughters don't want any contact with their father anymore and they have control of visitation so that would not be a problem)

Ladies,

MM forgot something pretty important about Plan B. It is based on Dr. Harley's observation that a large fraction of all A's end. Purely and simply they end, and they will do so with or without plan B.

The problem is if you are heavily engaged with WS during all of the goings and comings of an A, then you will very likely wear out, and lose your love for WS. So when A ends you won't feel like nor have the love necessary to do the very HARD work of recovery.

Why is it different between OP and BS with NC. There is no marriage, vows, children whatever between OP and WS, but these ties are still there with WS and BS after the A ends. So this connection makes NC between OP and WS much different than between WS and BS.

However, Plan B is really and simply a strategy for cutting down the pain that the BS would go through if there was contact, thus preserving for a longer period of time the love it will take to survive recovery. If the A doesn't end, then plan B will also help because the BS has already started to withdraw from WS, and the pain of divorce is lessened.

The additional effects that MM listed as the OP having to meet the WS's full needs are clearly there, but the real purpose is based on Harley's observation that most A's end with or without BS help.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Icedancer,

Allow me to add one recommendation to MM's encouragement to send the Plan B letter: send the OW a copy; you can even put the P.S. on it that's recommended in Surviving An Affair. If you need the wording, let us know.

Given how upset she has become in the past, knowing that you love your H and will do anything to save your marriage will surely not make her happy or comfortable in the relationship.

Good luck!

*S*

Most affairs end. Most affairs end. I am waiting for this affair to end. This, it seems to me, is the mantra most BSs should repeat to themselves over and over again.

Like in the Tao of Pooh. The Pooh Way is to accept where you are. You get stuff done via synchronicity and minimal effort, not through fighting and screaming and resisting and struggling. When I fight, I wear myself out. When I flow, I recover and grow.

Not that I'm able to implement that on a daily basis. There is a limit to the amount of acceptance of life that any one of us imperfect humans can attain. Plan A is while you are able to accept with equanimity. Plan B is when you are no longer able to accept with equanimity, and you choose to disengage rather than fight.

Plan D is when you fight. D-Day is when you fight. All your LBs in any plan on any day are when you fight. The fight hurts you as much as anyone else.

As usual, JL brings everything out. He is right! I only spoke of Plan B and the NC in context of what it does to the WS.

But the main effect of Plan B and NC is really on the BS. It gets you out of the mix and allows you to heal, rest up and prepare for whatever is to come...either reconciliation or divorce.

So, all of these factors are in play here. When in Plan B, the BS should just concentrate on how it makes them feel (less anxious, calmer, not on the rollercoaster, etc) and not worry about the other effects, especially those on the WS.

As JL said, almost all A end. With or without help. Plan A and Plan B really are there to help the BS, and to help the WS when the A does end. It does so by giving them a path out of the mess they created. And it gives the BS the time and boundaries to build strength to recover their life, whether the WS is in it or not.

So, basically...Plan B and NC really have many effects here. But as a BS, the only real effects that we can see while the A is still ongoing is the re-establishing of control over our lives. What happens to the WS is secondary to that.

In His arms.

Sparkle -

I want to know more about the P.S. you suggested:

"Allow me to add one recommendation to MM's encouragement to send the Plan B letter: send the OW a copy; you can even put the P.S. on it that's recommended in Surviving An Affair. If you need the wording, let us know."

I also agree with:

"Given how upset she has become in the past, knowing that you love your H and will do anything to save your marriage will surely not make her happy or comfortable in the relationship."

It would challenge the lie he's told that I rejected him and supposedly wouldn't let him come home no matter what, that HE was the one who tried to save the marraige, his false claim that I had told him to 'get on with his life' so the affair is all my fault.

Also, he told me: "she's not the monster you think she is", claims she "cares about" our daughters, repeatedly told me "it's not her fault", and when he quoted her saying "You assured me your family was totally out of your life - I won't be second place" that supposedly translated to she was sending him home to his family (sounds more like she was giving him ultimatum to choose between her and his family, which was then further verified by her interfering and competing with visitation with his daughters). Anyway, I guess if there's any shred of truth to his claim of her being such a nice caring person who wouldn't want to break up a marriage/family, doesn't want to be "the other woman" according to my husband, then she would be bothered by finding out I still am willing to forgive him and work on restoring our marriage?

Also, what about mentioning how hurt and angry his daughters are? I'd prefer to stay completely out of their dispute with their father BUT I'm sure he's telling the I brainwashed them or I'm not allowing visitation fib again. IF she even KNOWS they are refusing to see him... HMMMM He did stay at his apartment instead of hers Wednesday night - usual visitation night but kids refused to go. And he just showed up at daughter's rink Sunday anyway. Maybe he's keeping it a secret that his daughters have said they can't accept him being with other woman? He's apparently not going to be with her instead when his daughters reject visitation! Maybe if she knew what was going on she would break up with him for good?

BUT - I am scared she will call the police if I contact her. She did just because I called her, claiming it was harrassment. Seems to me if she really wanted to know the truth, really didn't want to break up a marriage then she wouldn't have hung up on me and called the police. For that matter she could have contacted me to check out husband's story before she decided to sleep with him.

My guess is she really doesn't give a fig about breaking up a marriage/family, doesn't have a shred of concern for his daughters BUT wants to present herself as being a sweet lady in his eyes. Maybe she is just worried what my husband and other people will think of her if the truth is revealed? Her image in their eyes? She wants to be seen as the sweet innocent lady who rescued my husband from the horrible wife and daughters who cruelly rejected him - but NOT as "the other woman" who broke up a family. So that would explain her not wanting to be given any info, right? In that case, wouldn't it be more effective to expose my willingness to save marriage and the way my daughters feel to other people such as her family and their coworkers?

Frankly I'm afraid to make any calls to try to find out who her relatives are; what if they call the police on me for calling them? Should I do one of those online investigations to find out her parents' names/address? But I would think people who care about her MUST be noticing the cracks in my husband's shining armor and story by now. I'm, curious how he can explain how his kids were supposedly brainwashed, then unbrainwashed, then brainwashed again? He would HAVE to keep it a secret they are refusing to see him anymore, right?

Their is a coworker whose daughter skates at one of the rinks. I'd only met her a few times. But LOTS of my friends skate there and I'm sure she's hearing something about what's really going on. (Most of the moms don't skate - they sit in the bleachers and gossip away all those hours). We haven't been skating at that rink lately but there is an on-ice-artistry class one of my daughters and I want to try there...

So maybe I could just sit back and let the rink rumors, doubts of her friends and loved ones, and the flaws in my husband's fibs do their work?

Apologies to MortarMan:

I STILL haven't sent the Plan B letter.
We didn't get home from rink last night until very late, my hands were numb with the cold (from the rink and because if I try to use car heater smoke comes out of dash) and for some reason when I drive too much at night I get horribly car sick (think it's a side effect of one of my hypertension medicines). So I went right to bed.

And now I want to know about the P.S. that Sparkle mentioned.

Also, I was wondering if maybe I should go to the marriage counseling session on Saturday and give my husband the letter then? I know that would violate the no contact but I KNOW it would be VERY EFFECTIVE to have the marriage counselor as a witness. I'm quite certain if I just send a letter to my husband and nobody else, he will just ignore it and pretend it never happened, sticking to his I rejected him lie (while expecting me to continue to see him in secret).
My husband is inordinately concerned about how others see him and wants desperately for others to believe he is not the slightest bit responsible for our break-up or even his affair. So other people knowing about the letter would be a good idea. That's why he got so angry when I did talk to the other woman, his family, and a couple of coworkers. I don't care if he gets angry but I don't want the police being called on me.

Ice,

Here is the Plan B letter I sent to my wife, and also sent to OM. Modify to your situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife Mrs. Mortarman,

This is a difficult letter for me to write…one that I have been mentally working on for days now. I have written this letter with the true love that only a husband can have for a wife. Please read every word I have written…it is from the heart.

I would like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the loss of our marriage. I neglected your needs and failed to give you what you needed many times. I'm sure this helped create a voice in our marriage that allowed your affair to happen. But believe me, whenever you hurt, so do I. Although I have always loved you with my heart and soul, I made you feel that everything was more important to me than you. It NEVER was the case, but that is how I made you feel, and for that Mrs. Mortarman, I am so very sorry. I have said this before, and I want to say it again: I want to do whatever I can to put our marriage back together in a mutually satisfying way. I feel I have been learning ways to again be the type of man I hope you would be proud to call your husband, as I have so many times felt much pride in calling you my wife. I so want to put the past behind us, and build a better life together…for us and our family.

While I accept responsibility for my part in the fall of our marriage, I will no longer accept responsibility for your part. I think you need to take this time to face your demons, as I have faced mine, and figure out what you want. I can't control what you do, nor will I try to change you anymore. I have realized that I can't do that and I accept that. I'm sorry if I hurt you because of it. I realize I have to take care of me now. I can only control me and change myself.

The past 10 months have been difficult for me…the most emotionally traumatic in my life. We seemed to start recovery, only to slip and fall again. I am still feeling the hurt and pain when I don't know where you are or who you are with. We have somehow misplaced our foundation of trust and respect, love and friendship.

The direction that I must go now is not one of choice, but of necessity. In the past I endured hurt and pain. I now see it only drains my love for you. Added to this fact, the choices you have made since you started this affair continue to be poor ones, and have adversely affected all of us. Our children are now suffering emotionally, as well as financially, because of these choices. Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you (except regarding the family) and I will avoid seeing you. This is not to punish you…it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there will be nothing left of this incredible love I have for you. And I cannot bear to think that I would ever not love you.

Since it is you that wants to leave, I ask that you please respect my decision to separate in this way. If you need to contact me, please do so through email (XXXXXX@XXXXXX.com) or leave a message at (###) ###-####. Any emergency involving the kids, or yourself, you can of course contact me directly and immediately.

Since January, I have been trying to give you hope for our marriage by learning how to be a better husband to you. Mrs. Mortarman, as you know, I am still willing to do whatever it takes to correct the mistakes that we have made in the past and make our marriage together stronger and closer than we ever thought possible. It simply cannot happen until your relationship with OM ends. I want us to work together, and create our new marriage together. God wants this also. I want you to know that no matter how bad the past was, no matter how ugly, we can get past it. It is fixable. God made you in your mother’s womb for me, just as I was made for you. With God's help, our true healing can begin. God has promised us this marriage and promised us reconciliation. You only have to have faith and to give Him a chance. You asked several weeks ago for a miracle or sign from Him. It WILL come, but will require you stepping forward on faith first. Look inside yourself and find the strength we will need to do this.

I understand how difficult this all is for you. I will make every effort to provide you with comfort and support, should you want to try to save our marriage. With a competent counselor and a little time, I am sure that we will be able to find what we are looking for and what has been missing.

I do not want this divorce. I want to be your husband, in every sense of the word. I want to hold you again, talk with you, laugh with you and even cry with you. I want us to continue to share in the joy that we have had in raising those three awesome kids. I want to grow old with you. As much as I want all of this, you have made it clear that you don’t want these things, and as long as you feel this way, I cannot be a part of your life…it is simply too painful. As always, I will continue to be the best father I can be to our three children and do whatever is necessary to insure their happiness through all of this.

You are the only person I have allowed myself to love so deeply. I loved you more than life itself when God brought us together, and I continue to do so as I write this. Perhaps even more! I have spent my whole life loving you, Mrs. Mortarman. The first 29 years I spent looking for you and the last almost 10 years, I have loved you as your husband. We may have had our problems, but we also created 8 years of history. Eight years of love, of family life, of memories. Good memories. What is needed now is for you to recognize that, to recognize that we can make this a new marriage, one with all of the promise of the past, as well as a future free from the problems you and I have created. One where we are a family again, both for you and I, and for our children. And once we do that, our love will come back again, stronger than we have ever known or thought possible.

I cannot imagine a life without you, without hearing your voice, without being there for you when you need me, without our family. But I know that for my love for you to survive and have a possibility to be there when you call me and say that you want to come home (YOUR home!), then I must protect that love at all costs.

Mrs. Mortarman, I do not know what the future holds for us…that is in God’s hands. I know that I want to grow old with you. When I said “I DO,” I made a promise in front of God, you, our families and friends for life. Through better or worse.

Our marriage, our life, our family is now in God’s hands. I will love you always!

Love,
Your husband and the ONLY man truly in love with you,
Mortarman


OM…I love Mrs. Mortarman with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I will wait for her to give me that chance. Her three children and I wait for her return home, where she belongs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Just a thought: Icedancer, why don't you start your own thread? Shugah's getting a bit buried here!

Thanks for posting your Plan B letter MortarMan.
And I see what the P.S. that Sparkle mentioned is now too (to the other person).

"Just a thought: Icedancer, why don't you start your own thread? Shugah's getting a bit buried here!"

Sorry. I originally posted in this thread about the question Shugah asked - something I was really worried about myself. I do have some thoughts for Shugah (and others) on that topic, how I had been trying to deal with that fear. I got the part about protecting myself from getting so hurt and angry that I wouldn't ever want to forgive him - told him I was sorry but I just couldn't endure it anymore as things were. It was just so scary thinking of them having all the time to spend together and him not spending any time with me then for Plan B. The only thing I could think of to cheer myself up was hoping he would act quiet or moody, missing me or feeling guilty, or at least bummed he wasn't eating cake anymore. So I was hoping she would react negatively to that instead of being caring or supportive. I was hoping he would maybe resent her somehow or she would fail to show proper appreciation for what he had to give up to choose her? I mean it would be a lot of pressure on her to cheer him up and make sure they had enough fun to be worth the pain and fear he'd be feeling.

That's really all I could think of and am SO glad MortarMan and the others gave such great responses to Shugah's concern.

I'll go back to my thread under Plan A/Plan B now and continue to wait for further responses there.

Oh, why not start a thread here, too, since we've all gotten to know you?

Didn't mean to chase you off GQ, just to attract more responses for both of you!

I need advice...
As I have noted earlier, change in attitude of WH, of course hard to decifer motive, but improvement nonetheless.
He probably recieved a letter from me yesterday or the day before. It was as follows:
These are things that are sometimes taken for granted but once gone will forever be some of the things I will cherish the most. They may be simple things and may not seem worth anything to you but to me they are the memories that make my life rich beyond description. I only wish it had been enough for you.

D, fresh from a bath, with her hair combed and wet and smelling sweet, watching the birds at the feeder in her underwear and tee-shirt.

S#2 calling me from work, to tell me when he’s getting out and what his plans are and asking if there’s anything I need.

A teacher stopping me in the hallway to tell me how well S#2 is doing in Honors Math and what a good kid he is.

S#3 still wanting to cuddle on the sofa with me under an afghan to watch tv.

Hearing other parents on the sidelines commenting on S#3's speed, bunting talent, etc.

Camping.

Catching D at the keyboard, belting out a made up song, thinking no one was listening!

Watching S#3 run track!

D waking up every morning and saying, “It’s a beautiful day!”

A wood-stove fire on a cold and windy day.

A pot of coffee & the paper on a Sunday morning.

A pot of coffee & the paper and a wood-stove fire on a cold and windy Sunday morning!

Add your omelets!

Add family!

S#2 & I sealing the foundation with S#1 looking on with his foot in a cast.

Collecting stones for the chimney.

Memorial Day Weekend, a Kubota, all of us working together…

Watching the fox in the yard from the window with D.

D running up the stairs, yelling, “Dog and me just saw a deer in the yard!”

Watching deer, turkey's...

Canoe, Cobscook Bay, toddlers, “what were we thinking?”

Watching S#1 play hockey, ref hockey, Babe Ruth, and Softball and thinking he could be a farmer!

S#1's first deer hanging from the oak tree.

Seeing 19 yr old S#1 pick up 4 yr. old D and give her a big kiss, and marveling that I have kids that are that old and that young, and how funny it is to see them together.

D running into my arms every afternoon when I pick her up at Day-Care.

BATS!

Watching S#2 comfort D when she is crying.

S#2, S#3 and myself all running to get out the door at the same time when D started screaming outside because she got stung by a bee!

Making cookies with the kids, carving pumpkins, gingerbread houses...

Hockey, hockey, hockey…

Adding Sponge-Bob Square Pants and the Simpson’s to a long list of the kid’s favorite tv shows, McGiver, Rescue 911, and what was that goofy one, you know the one where the mannequin comes to life at night in the department store? And let’s not forget, countless viewings of “Mighty Ducks” and “Lion King”!

D coming to the door with a bunch of dandelions, saying, “these are for you”.

Watching D make her own waffle or chocolate milk!

D handing me a paper full of A’s that I didn’t even know she could write yet!

D asking me, “do dreams mean something?”

Hearing D yell, “It’s snowing!”

Christmas Morning!!

S#2's first kitten!

S#2 at age 11, & Dog at the Natural Ability Testing!

D singing in the back seat, “Take Me Out to the Ballgame”, or “Angel flying too close to the Ground” and requesting that “Bonnie Raitt CD”!!

The first time we saw each other when you came back from Michigan, we met at the gas station, we were inseparable the whole weekend, you could hardly stand to leave again and it killed me to see you go…

Cedar Point!

Reading a bed-time story to D every night.

Letting the kids be late for school because we were trying to identify a large strange bird in the yard.

Playing cards and scrabble with S#3.

D catching frogs and grasshoppers in the backyard.

Watching our backyard come to life every spring!

Making love on a Friday afternoon while the kids were at school.

You and I sneaking off for a “nap”.

“Interesting activities” in the car while you & I were driving on road trips!

Finishing each others sentences.

4th of July in "hometown", everything about it, even getting rained out camping! The boys and their lobster rolls from "Lobster Booth", the kid’s in the parades, S#2 on the greased pole, ferry rides to Canada, Bald Eagles.…..

S#3 and I waiting for you at the end of the driveway to come home from work and him sitting on your lap to drive up the driveway.

D just now, saying, “I have a halloween song for you…the itsy bitsy halloween spider went up the halloween spout, down came the halloween rain and washed the halloween spider out….”

Driving up the driveway and seeing our beautiful home come into sight!! It thrills me every time!

Seeing you drive up the driveway whether it was every day after work, or on the weekends or even now when you’re here just to see the kids and not me, it thrills me every time.


I hope you are happy and have everything you ever wanted from life. I am just sorry that our life together was not enough for you, not exciting enough, and that we never had the chance to work out what ever it was that needed to be done to keep us all together. You are missed more than you will ever know. I’ll treasure all of these memories for both of us and continue enjoying the little things in life that truly make it all worthwhile. I wouldn’t trade it in for anything! Your family and home are still here for you, it may seem like all the bridges have been burned, but if somehting is truly worth fighting for, nothing is impossible. Don't let pride and guilt and hurt stop you from coming home to us. There's enough guilt and blame to go around. It doesn't matter how this roller-coaster ride started, let's stop it together.
Love,me

WH called last night, asked how the kids were doing. I said they were all here watching TV, including 19 yr.old S who just moved back home today!(and it felt soo good to have all my kids together!) WH said "well, I guess there's no place like home", I said, yeah, for most people.
The rest of the call was pleasant, I told him about my winning a Kayak raffle, yeah, I was psyched, he sounded pleased...
Here's where I need some advice....
MIL will be visiting her sister at her home on tues.which is somewhat midpoint between WH and I. WH wants to visit her there with the kids. Asked if I could meet him somewhere with the kids so he'd only have to drive them home after, or if I wanted to visit also, I was welcome also, because he was sure everyone would want to see me too.
(Of course the latter would mean he wouldn't have to drive the kids all the way home...)
Will visiting MIL with the family be too much of a "Fix" for WH, or would it be an opportunity to be together as a family, which may be timely, or if I stay away, will it force WH to experience one more time what it is like to be without me there. I get along "Great" with his family, aunts, cousins, etc. We've visited there many times as a family. I would be comfortable going there and showing all that I'm still the same great person I've always been, HUH! This same group of relatives gave WH a very hard time when he visited alone in July, about the A and separation.
What do you think about the letter and the visit....?