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Just stay focused on you and the kids, Shugah. If he wants to return to it, he's welcome, but only after he's understood that OW isn't welcome in your family. I know it's hard to watch, and I know you're scared for him. It's right to be scared for someone, but maybe not for the reasons you're thinking.

It's right to be scared, because maybe he WON'T grow enough to make it back to you.

It won't hurt you any -- you've grown strong and capable through all this -- but it'll hurt him.

You cannot fix that for him, though. He's just got to do it himself. Pray that he can, and pray that you have compassion for him afterwards, because he's going to be hurting from all the growing pains. There's a lot to be left behind in this process for both of you.

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Got through Thanksgiving ok. The kids and I spent the holiday at friends house. Not sure what WH did, I didn't ask.
I have been in contact with him here and there and want to believe that I am still seeing signs of the fog lifting. Realizing of course, that he still has a ways to go.
Recent comments by WH include:
"Yes, I think about coming home all the time....but it's not as easy as A, B, C."
"I miss the kids, the house, your cooking, you yelling at me ( he said this part laughingly)"
And then several comments regarding the house and property, he still refers to "we" and "us"? "We'll need to this", "We're being surrounded by the "jones", etc. Habit maybe?
He has been sounding VERY discouraged and depressed about finances. He sincerely sounds bummed about the lack of money for Birthdays, and Christmas.
In one conversation he sounded so bad, he even said, "maybe I'll just disappear".
I think the fact that Christmas will happen here without him, will have some impact. There have already been comments from 4 yr old D to WH about some of our traditions, and it is obvious that it bothers him that I will now be taking over the things that he traditionally did.
He sounds more sensitive and responsive in our discussions and a lot less defensive and angry, although it still happens here and there.
Obviously I have backed off Plan B. I feel that this is the closest I've come to hearing the disillusion and confusion and I'm going to continue with this direction as long as I am still seeing that. I believe that he now needs to see that I am not the "*****" and that I am somewhat "understanding" about the whole situation and start showing him the way home. Does that make sense?
There seems to be some giving and taking going on, and I believe he is seeing that I continue to be strong and his best option for a secure and fullfilling life. It's like he's seeing that together we can work through anything, but apart he is nowhere. At least I think he may be seeing that.
Of course with Fog it's impossible to know what's real and what's wishful thinking?
Continued issues with 12 yr. old S, out of character behavior issues, he is seeing a counselor now, but still hard for such a quiet kid. WH refuses (outwardly anyways) to accept any responsibility for his son's change in behavior, he believes it has more to do with his age then his abandonment. I have been an active part of the counseling and I believe that if WH ever becomes involved (especially if reconciliation occurs), it will be most beneficial for WH! It is obvious that communication issues are prevalent for all of us.
Anyways, I continue to plunge ahead with Christmas preparations, albeit it limited and frustrating due to lack of money. I force the smile, and dance to the Christmas music but all with a heavy(yet still hopeful) heart.
I try my best to enjoy the little things. D's excitement at seeing Santa come into town on a firetruck, watching Charlie Brown's Christmas with the kids, baking cookies and the fascination with our first snowfall of the year, and a significant one at that. Here in the NE, we've got over 2 ft. and it's still coming down!!
Hope all is well with everyone, I lurk but am not posting much but I still think of everyone.

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Oh, Shugah.

I just want to give you a big ole MB {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I have been following your thread, and see your struggles. You are lonely and hurting. Your children are lonely and hurting. Your WH is hurting. And the holidays here.....it's all so sad, isn't it?

What to do?

If you have not done so, please research and READ ALL OF MIMI's thread!!! Her H was exactly where yours is!!! It's true. He was truly miserable, lonely, scared, confused. I can see from what you wrote that yours is too.

Please STAY DARK now. He needs to figure this all out himself. IF you give in, and come to his rescue, it will only be a band-aid on his cancer.

PLEASE read Mimi's thread,(Again, since I'm sure you've read it before), especially MM's answers to her. She wanted to "rescue" her WH too! He was unhappy, and she knew it. BUT, it was important that he learn what was needed before she was willing to work with him. So is your H. He needs to KNOW that OW must be gone before you will "engage" him in talks of future.

Make sure you reiterate this to him often and uncompromisingly. Become a broken record. Make him believe YOU MEAN THIS. Otherwise, NO COMPROMISE. It's the MB way, and it works!!! It's the only way.

God Bless, and I'm praying he'll make this discovery for himself and make the right choice soon. But remember this: Even if he doesn't make this decision before Christmas, don't despair. Wouldn't you rather have ONE miserable Christmas in order to ensure that the rest of them would be more wonderful than you can imagine?

Stay the course. Stay dark. You're doing good!

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I do realize the importance of WH figuring it out and finding his way back on his own.
Yet I still can't help think that he truly believes that it is an impossible task.
Having been here at MB for over 10 months I know better! How will he ever know that too?
I am not completely dark, but remain extremely vague and distant, only occassionally reaching out to let him know that it is possible!
I pray that what I see is not just wishful thinking on my part but truly a slow lifting of the fog. There is still a long ways to go and then the work begins. I hope we get that chance.

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Bump

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Shugah,

I can give testimony to the fact that coming home is possible after a Modified Plan B. My FWH tells me that it was important for him to feel like I was not giving up on him and the marriage. He really wanted his family back more than anything at first. It was the family thing more than me.

He also has told me that he had a definite plan to start over again with the family thing with the OW. He even tried to do this. It hurts to know that but I'm just letting you know that coming home is possible. She failed on being able to make a family atmosphere for him. I'm remembering your baking. Maybe making it homey when he comes around but you being absent. You might need to strategize. I think you might need a war strategy as Mortarman would say.

Think about what is making your WH think that coming home would not be possible. What would make hime think that it is possible?

I'm remembering a call from my FWH when he asked me "What about us?" and I remember Steve Harley telling me to make it simple, to repeat to him "Get rid of her".

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Update & is it significant?
Last night I returned phone call to WH to give him S's game time for todays visit.

I asked him if he read the last thing I gave him just after thanksgiving. It was a letter from "trueheart" (I think) a letter from a WS to another in hopes of getting through.

WH said, I started it but it was such small print, I didn't get far...

I said, you know it wasn't written by me, right?

WH, "Uh no,"

Isaid, "it's from someone who has had an affair and has returned home"

Wh, "Oh, ok, I'll read it"

I said, "There is a way to come home and make it work"

WH, "Are there any long term successes?"

Me, "yes, many"

Not much else for that call...

Then today's visit. I had him alone for a few minutes...I said "why don't you just come home?"
WH,"I don't think you could stand me"
Me, "you might not be able to stand me either, but we'd have to get used to being around each other again"
And then I said something about coming home before he had to pay another months rent (we've hit bottom financially), and he said, "oh you want fast action!"
I said, " a year isn't exactly fast action!"
Anyways, I said, all you have to do is dump her the way you dumped me...

All this time, he allowed me to be close to him, and I reached out and touched him several times, he was really looking into my eyes and making contact the whole time...he didn't try to rush away.
And then he said, "let me go"
I said, "let you go as in LET ME GO, or as in let me go to the mall with the kids"
WH, "let me go to the mall with the kids"

Other things were said as well, we talked about a few kids issues, & we laughed..

I really feel that he is coming out of the fog a bit. Because he doesn't talk like he used to, such as just refusing to read anything, especially after knowing what it is about...and not just saying "I'm not coming back", I'm not in love with you" and all the other things he used to say...He seems to be really considering coming home...

I'll back off for now. He's not getting an invitation to spend Christmas with us.

I just hope that what I am seeing is not just my wishful thinking...I really believe! Please pray for us, this is a far cry from what I've seen in months!

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I'm allowing myself to get all worked up. I can't concentrate on any tasks, I flit from room to room....

I'm trying to process all that WH has been saying, I'm scared that it wont happen and scared that it will...

We talked on the phone again last night, he was on his way back to his place. He couldn't say too much because he had oldest S with him in the car, but the fact that he said as much as he did, is significant in my mind.
I asked if he was thinking about coming home...he said yes...then he asked, "before Christmas?"
Like he was asking my permission??
I said," that would be nice"
He called again this morning...he's taking S back to my Parents where he has beeen staying...and he said..."you want me to call you later?", I said, yeah, ok and he said, "Ok I'll call you later."

Yesterday, he said something about me "not being mean anymore", I think he viewed my attempts at Plan B, as being "mean".
He stood in our bedroom doorway just looking all around it, noticing for the first time that I had taken some photos of the kids off the wall(they were off a year ago!), it was just kind of weird...A step out of the fog...

D was upset last night that she didn't get anything at the mall, S got something for his birthday...WH acknowledged that he has probably spoiled her because he gets her something everytime he comes to visit....A step out of the fog...

He did show up with a pretty Christmas dress for her...

I had also asked if he had bought any presents for "anyone",(OW), and he said, "you know I wouldn't spend what little money I have on anyone else before my kids"... A step out of the fog...
I replied, well that is nice to know, because that hasn't always been the case this past year...He was quiet and didn't reply.

I really think, he is close to giving up on the A and coming home...I pray that is the case....I'm not sure I can handle coming this far only to be disappointed....

I know that many will recommend going dark again, I'm just not sure that it will accomplish anything at this point....but I will try to keep cool...he has to know that I am optimistic about our being able to recover, yet he needs to want that more than anything....I wish he had access to a computer, I would suggest he come here...

I need to settle myself down and not get ahead of myself or the process...it is just too soon to tell...

Advice anyone?

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I'm really glad to see these small steps, Shugah!

I have only one piece of advice for you: Think hard about the things you need him to do before he can come home. Coming home is only the first step in a long process, and in a lot of ways it's the easiest one. The plan for recovery is really important, so as a first step, let your big bad Taker out of her box and let us all know what she wants from her husband. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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Just J,
That is a good excercise for me...a tough one.

I want a commitment to MC and possibly IC?

I want a NC Letter and committment to NC.

I want the cell phone gone. (he is on roam in our state anyways). Although a cell would be a good instrument for accountability?

That's a start....
For all I've learned and read over the past year, all of a sudden I come up blank...
Help me...

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*chuckle*

I know how you feel, Shugah! I'd have a hard time with this exercise, too. Maybe you should put a piece of paper or two aside and scirbble ideas on it over the next couple of days when they hit you, and then post 'em all at once? Or, heck, just post whenever another one hits you!

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Well, just me being a stupid idiot again!!

WH did call me like he said he would. That in itself was a surprise.
But he claims he "can't come home", he doesn't think it would work, and it would mean he would give up one relationship only to have ours fail..

I'm just so tired. Tired of trying. Tired of hanging in there. Tired of doing all the child rearing. Tired of loving him. Tired.

He just wants me to be his friend. I told him, I"m not interested in being your friend. He interprets that as meaning that I want to be his enemy. No, I just can't be around you, play the big happy family, when it's killing me inside. He thinks I should do it because it's "Best" for the children.

IF you are not here, there is nothing BEST for the children!!! Why do these WS think that everything will be just hunky dorey for their kids...if only the BS will play along!!

Like I said I'm tired. Got lots to think about.

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<strong>Shugah: ...But he claims he "can't come home", he doesn't think it would work, and it would mean he would give up one relationship only to have ours fail.. </strong>

Orchid: When I was given that line it used to send me into a panic spin. Then it happened enough times where I began to reply that the WS was right. Then I explained that as long as he continued as a WS instead of an H, it wouldnt work. The trick is to agree and put it back in their lap. RE: They try to make the BS feel guilty and I just wasn't in the mood for that trip.

<strong>Shugah: I'm just so tired. Tired of trying. Tired of hanging in there. Tired of doing all the child rearing. Tired of loving him. Tired.</strong>

Orchid: We undertand. That is why you need to keep posting here. TAke a breather from him. That's one of the benefits of plan B and contact is one of the pitfalls of plan A when you are tired. May not hurt to let him know you are tired.

<strong>Shugah: He just wants me to be his friend. I told him, I"m not interested in being your friend. He interprets that as meaning that I want to be his enemy. No, I just can't be around you, play the big happy family, when it's killing me inside. He thinks I should do it because it's "Best" for the children. </strong>

Orchid: Your reaction is normal. As for his interpretation, don't agrue. Let him know if that is the best he can do, you will try to understand, you don't agree but you will try to understand that he is not able to what the rest of the world can see. Just like that.

<strong>Shugah: IF you are not here, there is nothing BEST for the children!!! Why do these WS think that everything will be just hunky dorey for their kids...if only the BS will play along!!</strong>

Orchid: Because they are in the fog.

<strong>Shugah: Like I said I'm tired. Got lots to think about. </strong>

Orchid: I know. take a deep breathe..... let it out. Do it again but don't hyperventilate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

hugz,
L.

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Shugah, I am so sorry for yet another dissappointment. I Really feel for you as, like me, you have been going through a rough Plan B.

I´m not any wiser than the rest of us and can just give you my opinion of what I think is happening.

When you had this phone discussion, where he asks to come home b4 xmas, I got the feeling that he was just testing the ice, to see if it was still whole. Meaning that he has had the "feeling" that you had let go and he had to test whether you really had - because IF you had, then he knows that he would have to do something about it, if he did not want to lose you.

I am not saying he is thinking or doing any of this consciously. I actually think it is unconsciously and he is just reacting according to how people react in situation like this á la the psychology books.

He doesn´t really feel like he is losing you or lost you, so he doesn´t really feel like he needs to snap out of it and do any of the work it takes to have you and his family back.

I wonder how he would have reacted if you, instead of saying "that would be nice" to his kind of question "before xmas", would have answered something like,

" I´m sorry, but you coming home before xmas is way too soon for me, because I don´t know whether I can handle you, I have gotten pretty comfortable handling everything on my own, and me and the kids enjoy our own special togetherness - I´m not sure I am willing to risk that anymore with the turbulence I know you can bring into my life."

I wonder whether that would have given him the impression of a strong woman with power and decisiveness, that was not willing to just bend over for anything, and then REALLY got him thinking if he was willing to lose you over this OW...

IMHO you gave in too easily. He needs to do the chase. And i promise you I understand you completely, and don´t judge you or the likes, I might have done the same - its SO TOUGH, doing it differently when you still want it. But Shugah, you´ve got to start giving him the impression you are not sure you want it anymore. And to be totally frank and honest with you, are you sure you do?. So give him the real signals, not just the "wanting the dream" signals. Let go, be a bit tougher and then watch him chase you and keep him on his toes. If he doesn´t do the chase, then dear Shugah, he probably never will, and then it will always be you doing all the work in your relationship. Considering what he has put you through, the hurt, the pain - can you live with that?

I´m hanging in there with you.

Queen

<small>[ December 15, 2003, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]</small>

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I believe your WH is in that transition phase that MM was helping me with a few weeks before my WH came home.

The key is to give him the message that he can come home when and if he "GETS RID OF THE OW". Steve H. told me to repeat this in all my conversations with my WH. You don't give much in the conversations, mainly listen.

Also, my WH had to know that I would not BE HIS FRIEND. He asked me the same thing that yours did. That's the CAKE-EATING strategy. He has to know that you will GO DARK if he continues his relationship with her. He has moved from wanting only her, to wanting the both of you. He has to make a choice now.

Don't buy into his bull that PLAN B is being mean. He wants to continue to cake-eat. He's not ready to give her up. Give him the message that he has to give her up if he wants to have any sort of relationship with you.

Maybe try to go back and read my messages from MORTARMAN and the rest who helped me through this.

I think you are on the brink of a breakthrough. You need to handle this carefully!!

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Thanks you guys for getting back to me, and for all your care and concern.
The kids and I are home with a "snowday" so I have lots of time to think and relax (until I have to shovel!). Maybe bake some Christmas cookies. I made gingerbread houses yesterday for them to decorate today.
I'm stressing over money too on top of everything. There is no money for gifts and I am behind on the mortgage and other bills. If the mortgage is not kept up during the bankruptcy period (another 6 weeks), I can lose it. I also have to surrender my car at the end of that period. WH of course knows all of this, but is still not paying the full support ordered by the court. (I'm sure his rent is paid though!) He has offered me his entire annuity in a D, but unfortunately that will not help me in the short run. I have a phone appt. with the lawyer this afternoon. I have no idea what I am going to do.
He seems concerned about it, but not enough to sacrifice his roof so that we can keep ours.

Last night he said he would call today, I said Why? He said to check on how the kids are doing. He never does that. He knows I was upset. I don't understand why he called me last night either. I know, I can't be reading into it!
He knows I'm tired, he said he "appreciates" that I have the hard part of raising the kids! I told him that 12 yr. old is a mess, that he is so needy and I cant meet all his needs and that I'm exhausted trying. (I really am!)
If he calls today I will let him know that I can't talk anymore, it just sets me back in my recovery. He also needs to know that he can't come here for Christmas eve or Day. He mentioned something about seeing the kids on Christmas Eve. Unless he's taking them out, and where is he going to be able to go on Christmas EVe??

I know I'll be percieved as the B**ch. Not doing what's BEST for the kids. OW doesn't have to do what's best for them, WH doesn't, but I DO? That is just so laughable!
Anyways, I stumble on, not sure what to do next, but always having something to do in the meantime! Christmas will happen, gifts or not. I'll find a way to work, car or not. And when the house is gone...well, something will come up.

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Stay strong Shugah,

Concentrate on the little things - gingerbread houses is good, baking cookies is good, shoving snow is good, reading a book is good.

Believe that all the practical stuff will work out one way or another. Trust yourself. Trust LIFE!

Stay strong in trying your best to not be needy towards your WH, because that is exactly the thing that will get him running away from you, not towards you. Is it unfair? You are damn right it is unfair, but he is still in the fog, and if he is drowned with more problems than the ones he has already caused, he´s gonna want to go back into the fog again to get his fix of the "high".

You are the strong one here, even though you feel like you are being pulled down and you feel like you haven´t got any strength.

You deserve to be taken care of. You deserve to feel small and loved. But right now it just has to wait. It will come. It will.

Shugah, you are in my thoughts and in my prayers that there will be a way, and the stress of "losing the basics" will gradually diminish.

Queen

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THanks Queen,
Well, I talked with lawyer yesterday. Apparantly if WH agrees to give me all of his annuity in a D settlement, I can actually access it quite soon. So as soon as bankruptcy is complete, another 6 weeks or so, we can move on this.
I will be able to save the house, get a car and maybe still put some away as a retirement fund, which is what it all should be, but I have to do what I have to for now.
WH & I talked last night, he said "this is the best way for me to take care of my family...we are out of options...you need a car..."
I told him that I asked the lawyer "what happens if I access this money and then we don't actually go through with the D?"
WH wanted to know what the answer to that was. ??????
I told him that I'm not convinced that this is what he wants (D), and again he said, we are out of options.
He told me that he had an incoming call that he had to take and that he would call me back. Of course it was OW.
I was livid!! By the time he called me back, I was sooo mad. " I told him that as if I haven't been disrespected enough, we are in the middle of discussing dissolving our M and you put me on hold to take a call from that f***n (C word, which I NEVER use!!)
Now usually if I get mad, he does too, but in this case, he was quiet and took it.
I said, "do you understand the amount of stress I am under right now, do you understand how that could get me so wound up?"
He seemed to understand.
I am going to move forward with this, as I really have no options financially.
But you know what? I think it's exactly what needs to happen...I don't think he wants a D...I think this will take the pressure off him financially somewhat...
I am not without hope.

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Shugah,

I've been following your posts for quite sometime. I haven't been on as much since I'm recovering from surgery in Oct but I wanted you to know that I am praying for you and your H. There are times I have such hope for you guys then I yell at the monitor because I want to shake your H....

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Thanks Purpleroses,
We can use all the prayers we can get!
I hope your recovery is coming along.
I still have hope, I just think that WH is stuck in the process, without the same hope of recovery that I have and thus he is just plain scared to take that chance.
It sure has been a rollercoaster ride, hasn't it?

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