For those who don't know my story I am trying to get W to end 2 year EA. On Friday night I took her to a nice restaurant and when it came time to order the water (yes the water) I suggested Pellegrino. W wanted tap. I then asked how big is the Pellegrino bottle. Since it was only available in large I decided to go with tap. W insisted I get the Pellegrino so I did. As soon as the waitress left she started complaining how I don't let her just get what she wants. So I turned to the waitress and asked her to also bring tap water. That was the end of the evening W stop talking and said she is ready to walk out of restaurant. Some tears started to come and we didn't speak the rest of the meal. We immediately went home and pick up daughter from baby sitter. My question is; is this about water (and am I too controlling) or does it have to do with our phone calls to Harley and he realization that the fantasy is coming to an end? I could really use some honest input. What is really going on here? Thanks

WOE

Watch yourself carefully and see if there is any merit to her complaints. You have an important clue here.

My WH always complained that I never suggested anything to do, or took the initiative. I started trying to change, but soon noticed that everything I suggested, he would change to do what he wanted. When I brought it up, he denied it. We got into a real pattern of me suggesting, him wanting something else, and me giving up.

If you check this out over time, you will know whether this is a pattern, or just the results of her withdrawal.

WOE,
(disclaimer: i haven't read all of your posts so i'm just going off of this one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
I'd say the water is not the issue at all. Maybe she sees you as responsible that her fairy tale is coming to an end and the water choice is just another example of how you are controlling her life. Your date sounds like all my dates with my H right after we started recovery. Nothing to talk about. Starts out good and something tiny ruins the whole thing so we sit there in silence and eat and then go home hurt. It does get better. Go out once a week even though it is uncomfortable. Let her choose some things even if you aren't particularly interested. She will see it as willingness on your part to please her. Soon you both will start to feel more comfortable with each other as genuine recovery is made.

Ladies, that's what I wanted to hear that it is somehow tied to her realizing the fantasy is over. This pattern has been going on for quite some time. I suggest something and she always finds the fault in it. Wouldn't be nice to simply be the critic. Never having to try. Cleopatra, that's what I wanted to understand that this is not about me (or the water) but her wrestling with conscious and lashing out. Of course I'm not perfect but it seems like I get nothing but criticism no matter how hard I try. My epithany has been that the only reason I know this is an affair is because of the criticism I get. That is how she justifies it. If I didn't get the relentless criticism I would think maybe it is now an acceptable friendship. But there is one important thing that you may have missed; there was once a ONS at the beginning of this 2 year EA. It's hard too believe that an otherwise reasonably happy 18 year M could crumble over something like this. I just scratch my head and wonder how can she take all this heat over an EA?
What's in it for her? Believe me I have fought and fought and fought. Gone to 10 MC sessions by myself, now see a IC (because I can't get over it) and now consult with the Harleys. How can it be worth all this to her? But the harder she holds on the more I understand how important it is that she let go. This relationship just means too much to her.

WOE

Believer, you are right that there is a very bad pattern here. I make all the plans and she simply sits back and points out the flaws in the plan. At a B&B it was a problem because I drug her out of the room to have a romantic dinner when she would have preferred to stay and enjoy the room. At a very romantic getaway to Miami Beach she complained that my family and friends were told prior to her (I was just so excited to surprise her that I told everyone what I had planned for her birthday). At a surprise 40th she pointed out who was omitted from the guestlist
and not how well it was planned (I had taken care of every detail for this party). Her engagement ring isn't big enough, for that matter I'm not big enough (ha ha). It's just always criticism. Welcome your guidance again. Thanks.

WOE

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My epithany has been that the only reason I know this is an affair is because of the criticism I get. That is how she justifies it. If I didn't get the relentless criticism I would think maybe it is now an acceptable friendship.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, do I hear you WOE. It seems my H finds fault in everything I say or do. It is part of their justification. I feel exactly the same way as you. I guess we just need to try not to overreact to it and realize that they are either still in the fog or in major withdrawal.

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

W.o.e.,

It doesn't matter what the subject is. Her point appears to be that you are NOT letting her have what she wants. An A. Therefore a tantrum will be given whenever the mood strikes her.

Don't dwell on the water. It could have been champagne or something rare and exotic. If you wanted it, she doesn't. Plain and simple.

What you are seeing is pain and difficult. It seems that Ws' do this and most BS trying to accomodate keep getting slapped in the face until the BS puts their foot down. Some of us are very very patient and probably shouldn't be. I mean really, how many other people would we take this type of attitude. For most of us, not even from our own kids. But our WS'? Hm..... go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

There is hope. Define your boundaries and when she throws another tantrum you will be prepared of what you will take and what you won't.

ex:

Waitress: Would you like to start off with something to drink?

WS: Hm.....
BS: I'd like some Pelligrino please.
WS: Hm.....

Waitress: Madam?

WS: I don't know.
BS: We could share the Pelligrino.

WS: I don't want any of that tonight. I just want tap water.

BS: Ooh, ok.

Waitress: Ok, 1 water and 1 Pelligrino. I'll be right back for your order.

WS: (frowns), why does that waitress make a big deal about my drink? I just wanted water, it's not like we are being charged extra. She should have just said 1 Pelligrino. Now everyone in the restaurant will know I ordered only water.

BS: Isn't that what you ordered? (note: do not say wanted - speak factually).

WS: No, well yes but she didn't have to broadcast it.

BS: Well when the water comes tell her to bring some tea or coffee, that way it won't look like just water.

WS: I don't want tea or coffee.

BS: How about a brandy sniffer?

WS: Wouldn't that look funny a brandy sniffer with water?

BS: Yes, it would. R U game or do you want the glass of water. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WS: Ok, I'll take the water.

BS: I thought the brandy sniffer would be kinda different but if that's what you want. Ok here comes the waitress, maybe we should let her order for us, 'eh?

WS: (frowns again).... no this time I know what I want.

BS: Good. Me too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ..........

Divert their anger throw in a joke or 2 if it helps, show them it c/b worse. Maybe then they will appreciate what they have vs their tantrum.

Of course in some cases, the WS throws the tantrum anyways. If so, let it go. Get a safe distance and let them put on the show by themselves. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

Hi WOE,

I think this is tied to her self confidence, she's obviously a MESS right now. And it could be due to the fact that the EA is ending, or that she's coming out of the Fog and feeling pretty rotten about herself, or whatever...

All I know is that most women would have no trouble saying, 'No thank you, I'll have tap' to the waiter.

To have her crash down because of this one instance does mean SOMETHING. It would take a pretty weak shell of a woman to think that a man ordering water for her was somehow 'controlling'.

Please dont suggest anything to her. 'I'll have the Pelligrino'. Then let her talk to the waiter. If she doestn get any water, so what. If she wants it, she can order it later. DONT step in. Let HER see she didnt order any water. (extrapalate this to any situation) You take care of you, let her take care of her (since she's so darned worried about being controlled)

Once you center yourself, and stay dry and calm, she'll have no choice but to see this is about her. You stay strong and normal, then she'll look all the more dishelveled. Please take care - Dru

Dru, Orchid and Nid; Thanks. YOu are confirming what I have been starting to realize. It doesn't matter what I do its not going to be good enough. Orchid you're exchange with the waiter is fabulous and really made me laugh. I think we are all seeing the same thing that the WS is really in a conflicted state and we need to be strong. They really don't have a bed of roses. Earlier in the evening my W made fun of me for missing a turn and as we approached the next cross street she told me to "turrrrrn here". I asked her if she would like to drive and put on the spot she said yes. I stopped the car in the middle of the road, put on the flashers and changed places with her. A few minutes later we arrived at the babysitters house where she asked if I'd like to drive to dinner. I drove for the rest of the evening without comment. So I guess when I put my foot down I'll win more than I lose.
I suppose you need to laugh to keep from crying. I can't wait till she comes out of this so I can then assess my situation. Maybe I realize I should have walked away long ago, but I really don't think so. I'm hoping and praying for a very remorseful and loving Spouse at the end of this.

WOE

Hey Walking,

The eggs are hard boiled. You need to learn how to roll with their flow. LOL!!! I am glad you can see the humor in it and learn to use that to your advantage.

The changing drivers scene runs on the same premise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The point is that you can't let them drag you into their tantrum.

When my child tries to act up (he doesn't do it often because he knows what I will do), but he does try to push it, I lessen his options immediately. His cousin who is 1 1/2 years older tries everytime he comes over. Not a big scene but enough. My son warns him not to do that to me. It is a lesson in life. Sad that the Ws' have to learn it at such an advanced age. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

By the way if the eggs are packed just right isn't there an experiement where they can be dropped from a roof and NOT crack? Hm.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

I make all the plans and she simply sits back and points out the flaws in the plan.
And then you reply,
"Hey, Thanks, I'm glad you caught that! I'll have to change (whatever) around to make sure (whatever) doesn't happen. Do you have any suggestion on how to not let (whatever) happen?"

Chris thanks for keeping an eye on things. Thought you dissappeared. Orchid thanks for the child analogy. It took me a long time to figure this out but everything on this board is dead on right. TMCM told me a long time ago that for a woman to have an A there had to be a big EA. There is no way they can go back to being friends. I underestimated that fact. I got a call with Harley in the morning and I'll give another update. I can say though, finally I don't feel I'll waiver. Nobody deserves this Chinese Water Torture. I don't know if I'm winning but I'm definitely getting off the Merry Go Round.

Woe,

I didn't see the ONS in my initial reading of your post. I have to agree with Chris that there is no turning back for her after that. Also, I strongly believe that it is the same with an emotional affair.
It's good that you are talking to one of the Harleys. It really helped me a lot. Take notes!

Cleo, thanks. I will heed your advice to take notes.

WOE

Added note. Harley just asked me to hang up the phone and speak to W seperately and promised to speak to me seperately. This was initially supposed to be a joint call. I think more and more she is running out of places to hide (meaning justify). Again, I thought I was walking on eggs before but these are trecherous waters now. Seems like no room for error almost.
Yes, the ONS makes it impossible for me to accept this as only friendship.

WOE, the ONS is really irrelevent, because such a friendship is a total betrayal of trust anyway. My H is having an EA only and he CAN'T LET IT GO. Its the emotional part that is so devastating. You are supposed to be the one your W turns to emotionally. Do you know my H discussed something about our S with OW? It royally pissed me off. We had already discussed the issue. That is MY SON, MY BABY, and that F****** woman should not have an opinion about our S and the things that happen in OUR house. OH, sorry getting off track. Anyway, my point is that the sexual part of the A isn't really the damaging part. Its the emotions involved.

Nid, I agree with what you said. No apoligies necessary. We're all here for the same thing. I'll give a full update about my discussions with Steve Harley a little later. But I can certainly relate to those intimate conversations that take place behind our backs.

WOE