Hi, if you know my story, you know that I was very scared about going to Plan B. We just came back tom MBW. But Wh still disappeared to thin air and refused to do any lesson. I was suggested to go to Plan B in few weeks.

I need all the support, advice, critiques and anything. I couldn't sleep again last night b/c of his disapperance. But I know I can go through it.

HUGS to you lostnhurt! We can support each other! My H is here and TYRING, but i am not sure he can actually fall in love with me. I guess I will give him the allotted 4 weeks as Dr Harley suggested and see what happens. I dont think I explained myself though very well to Dr harley. H WANTS to love me but he is not letting me in.

In any event, we will all be here to support you. My H didnt' call me last night, which is very unusual for him. He was wroking in the ER and he always calls me from the ER, he hasnt' called yet this mroning either. I am not going to call him though! Stay strong!

Thanks, Mom. I supposed you read my correspodance with Dr. Harley. I am very very sad now. I am crying. But I am strong.

I am in the library try to find the books Kayla recommended. I hope these reading will help me through everything. I am so sick and tired of this whole thing.

Good luck to you and Dad. He will let you in, just be patient.

I made the appointment to talk to SH tomorrow, then called WH to see whehter he can talk to him. He actually said ok.

Then I asked him what happened last night, did he get a good sleep. He said yea, but I didn't ask him where he was about, but just told him to come home. He said if I come home, you will ask me to do those lessons. I said that you agreed. He argued that yesterday was not the schduled time, so he didn't have to be home. what an idiot! I said don't you want to spend time with me? The kids miss you too. He said is that true?


Then I asked him whehter I can join him for lunch, he said no, I don't want to. My heart broke. Why there is such person in the whorld? Why do I still want to be with him?

Lostnhurt,
I have been following your thread. I thought that the MBW was unlikely to be the turning point for your H. For whatever reason, you accomodated his thoughtless behavior. The affair was "the straw that broke the camel's back", not an addiction which developed due to lack of self-protection against developing a love relationship with another woman (something that I think may have been the case with dadto3boys).

I'll give you something to consider from my own story. When the A came to light, I was close to nervous breakdown. I told my family about not just the A but also that he had broken my arm four months previously and that he had been physically abusive during most of our M. That was a shock to my family and somewhat to his. They took the position of "You need to do the Christian thing and forgive him", and my family took the position of "Throw the bum out."

A very wise friend of mine told me at the time to go into a long-term separation and plan for it to be permanent. I remember telling her that he had said I didn't meet his needs, and her reply was "Did he meet yours?" There was no consideration of that! Nevertheless, I knew that I contributed to problems in the M, so I was unwilling to go to Plan B.

BIG mistake. As long as he was in my company, he could blame me for his behavior. He didn't have to face his own behavior.

I did throw him out of the house for two months, but it was hardly a separation. He would come back home to cut his hair. I wasn't willing to give him up. What I really wasn't willing to do was FACE THE REALITY that his choices are his choices and not mine. As long as I wasn't facing that reality, he didn't have to face that reality either.

That went on and on from May 4, 2002 (D-day) until December 9, 2003 when I sat him down and said I was ending MC but we could try the MB program. I do have a thread in the private forum which is long and to which Harley basically says to follow the program of 15 hours per week together. Believe it or not, my H is starting to meet my EN of affection but only because his alternative is that I will file for D.

You know what? You aren't in the M for financial reasons. You can force your H to support his children. You are in this M to get your ENs met and to meet those of your H. You tolerated thoughtless behavior for years and now he has done the ultimate thoughtless thing of having an A. If you let him know, gently, kindly, that you are willing to go through the MB program of recovery with him and he makes the choice not to, then your Plan A may be interpreted by him as your willingness to tolerate his utter disregard for the impact of his choices on you and your children. The MBW is a decision point for him. It sounds like he is trying to it just a diversion.

I wish I could save you and your children the pain that I went through for more than 18 months as I tried to influence his behavior. IMHO, the most influential thing you can do is to make it clear that his behavior is intolerable, and the way to do that is to go to Plan B.

After what you've already been through, I wouldn't give him even a few weeks! You've had the MBW. He's disappearing. It's sad to face. It's hard to face. You can let him know that you are willing to have him back if he is willing to go through this program of recovery, and that's it.

Do you really want to continue in your M as it is? If not, Plan B.

I don't think I could have gotten through to myself in the state I was in in May, 2002, so I don't expect to get through to you. Harley is right.

I will hold out this to you in hope. I gained 60 lbs. between when Tom and I were dating and last month, 40 of them gained in the two years since 1/3/02 when the A still wasn't exposed but I said "I want you to care about me more than Sophia" and he said "If it wasn't for the kids, I'd have been long gone.

Well, I have lost 10 of those pounds. Do you know why? I was starved for affection, and food was a poor substitute for what he gave to this other woman but didn't give to me after we were M. He is really having a hard time with being affectionate. He has no problem with sex but finds something as affectionate as French kissing to be inappropriate because of the lack of connection between us. Nevertheless, he is starting to be affectionate, I am starting to enjoy it, and my weight is starting to drop. I even felt a fleeting moment of love -- that in-love feeling that I haven't felt since the month we were M.

Follow Harley's advice. If you persist in Plan A, he will persist in thinking he can get away with thoughtless behavior. Plan B protects you. He and he alone will make the decision to go through MW program with you. By going to Plan B, you are making it clear that your old M is dead. You are open to a new M when your needs are met.

Cherished

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Thanks, Cherished. I posted on other thread.

My sister kept telling me that he needs to have consequences for his behavior. But I don't know what kind of consequences are. The only thing is a D, that is D. Is that a consequence?

Lostnhurt,
D is a consequence. Harley has a book called "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders". As a very amateur therapist, I would say that you and I have had similar marriages -- we have been Renters married to Freeloaders. We have thought that by sacrificing (you have two jobs, for example), we would earn our husband's willingness to meet our needs, but our husband has had the Freeloader philosophy that he'll do what he pleases and things should work out fine if the wife is an appropriate fit.

I taped Harley's advice from his radio show (I'm blessed to be in the Twin Cities area) to a woman whom he labeled as a Renter who was engaged to a man he labeled as a Freeloader. I will put it on the MB forum as soon as I type it up. Basically, you are arguing with him that he should go through the program, and he doesn't care what you think. He cares about doing what he pleases. If you think in his terms, which is those of a selfish adolescent, then your best approach is to make him grow up by making him realize that your M will only survive if he is willing to consider the needs and feelings of the other members of his family and not just do what he pleases and blame whoever it is convenient to blame.

Telling you this reminds me of what my H said when OWH told me of the A: "I think Sophia is trying to destroy our marriage." Sophia did not control Tom's actions, and neither do/did I... HE was the one to make the choices, just as he is now.

Personally, I think the sooner you go to Plan B, the better. I hope to post that radio program dialogue for you within a few days.

You'll feel calmer if you realize that it's up to him. You can only do your part.
Cherished

PS I also recommend that book -- "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders".

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Its okay to be in plan B

I was afraid to go into it too in first place. I was afraid of losing him. I was afraid that i will be pushing him to OW. You think plan B is about them but it is NOT. Plan B is for us.

Now you feel lost and helpless. Plan B will make you feel good and happy again. Dont you want to feel happy and at peace again? No need to worry about WH??? Read all the postings from all those doing plan B and you will see a big difference.

I saw that book in the seminar. But I didn't realize that is what about. I may check in the library. Now I am concentrate on my own grwoth, I mean in wisdom.

My sis said the same thing, Wh has to grow up. he can't act like as he is now. But Believer has another point of view, she said that he is better than many other WH b/c he is alway available for the kids. He is kind to the kinds. Whne he is home, he is more willing to share the work. She was confused by how he answer the En questionare. She said that he couldn't find any major issues, but picked small things. Is this foggy or just his personality?

My WH dots on our daughter very much. If you see them together you will definately say they love each very much. He was also very giving and helps a lot at home. He still maintains until today that i am a good wife and he could not find anything WRONG with me. He was a devoted catholic. He was a caring person etc etc.

Now he dont care one bit about how this affair is destroying our marrige. He does not feel anything about our daughter asking when he will come home. He does not care that this affair is causing me pain and humiliation. He no longer pray or go to church. He shows no respect to me by talking to her and answering her calls in FRONT of me. He is so proud OW gave him a new Handphone.

IT IS ALL FOG.

This is the same symptom each one of the WS out there goes through.

Zizzy, I mean that he actually is better after D-day. He is nicer to kids, takes more responsibilities for chores. When I came home late, he would cook for me and have dinner waiting for me, given that if he is home.

The biggest problem is his thoughtless acts when I was availble for kids, he would xoom out for his pleasure, and he doesn't want to be with me. He is so withdraw and distant. He just want a D. I think in my case, a bad M is worse than the A. He claimed that the A is over, but at the same time he said our M is also over. He kept saying it is not OW, it is between us. I don't know whether a Plan B will work in this case. Plan B will just seperate us forever.

If you are in recovery then hang on there. Give him EN as much as you can. Plan A the best you can.

If you are in plan A while the affair is still going on then it is time to consider plan B if you have had enough.

If you havent tried plan B...then you should consider. Plan B is for you. Enough of giving and giving. In plan B you work on yourself and make yourself happy. If you keep to plan B long enough eventually you reach a point where YOU DONT GIVE A DAMN about WH anymore. You will no longer feel afraid of WH leaving. You will no longer feel afraid of WH marrying OW. You will feel strong. Dont you remember feeling happy and at peace one time ago??? Dont you miss feeling calm? Dont you wish you no longer feel or care so much about WH?

If you want all this then do plan B. Keep dark for 2 months and you will see what i am talking about. Now you are so full of emotions you dont understand what i am trying to say about plan B. You need to do plan b then you will understand.

ZZizy, I know what you mean. I am more toward to go. I need to pray very hard and need help in the concrete steps.

1. How to deal with children?

2. How deal with financial? We have a lot of stocks, how to split them?

3. I do I approach him about it? He talked about moving out few times, but never had action. Do I just tell him to move?

I am very very confused and hurt.

Is he still having the affair or not?

If not then you should give your relationship a chance to work. Plan A the best you can.

You will be okay. Dont rush it. Take oneday at a time.

Are you very sure he has ended it? Since i have had 3 false recoveries...i know the symptom of WH being withdrawn...empty...miserable with you...etc etc...to me it all points out to WH still doing the Affair behind your back. Maybe you should make sure about that first.

If you are very very sure it has ended then work hard on recovery. Dont give up so easily. You fought hard for WH right? So give him some time. Just plan A okay

Hugs to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is he still having the affair or not?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the part i don't know and that is why I hastitate. He claimed the A ended and the M ended too.

Do I hire a PA to chack out first?

sorry lost that i'm just now getting to reply to you today. you pretty much know where i'm coming from and that even though we both have a WS we're not in the same position, does that make sense? well anyway, what i'm trying to say is take from what i say as you will but know i want to support you in your decisions.

however, i'm just going to gently remind you of some of the things you have said in your posts,

remember, you can't have any expectations of your H right now

didn't you say that if he went to the MBW and afterwards he still wanted to separate then he could do it then?

continue to do the lessons because you are still to try and make yourself better and strong so that when/if he comes back you're prepared and also that this never happens to you again regardless whether or not things work out in your M.

i still see some signs in your H that i would consider "good." still don't think it's hopeless and i don't think that you want to give up even though you are getting extremely exhausted. if you understand and believe in the MB concepts and you are counseling w/SH then continue to do those things and these are all to help you! but if you feel that you can't plan A anymore then it's time for plan B. just because you're in plan B doesn't mean you have to get a D either. when you talk to SH tomorrow bring him up to date and tell him what Dr. Harley is also telling you (IMO it sounds like they differ a little in their counseling to you). If your goal is still to rebuild your M, which i believe it is then you know SH (and us) will help and support you in that even if you do plan B.

i think just working on a plan B letter will help you out. so do some drafts and post it here and we will let you know what we think. but until you give your H the PBL still do plan A!!!!!!!1 don't give him any reason to not think your actions are following your words and that you say you want to work on the M but are now going back to the way you were, does that make sense? remember again, that this is a race, a marathon and not a sprint, the cruise gave you some energy to get through the next leg of the race. your H DID go to the MBW, a lot of us don't have H's that did that. also keep in mind that you want to be able to look back and say that you did everything you could. so now you can take comfort in knowing that your H at least went to the MBW and you won't think back down the road, "if only my H had gone to the MBW that would have made a difference."

as SH said this is a chipping away process, and you're still doing a beautiful job, this will be a masterpiece when you're done! start comparing yourself to Job from the old testament and think of all he endured and he still plugged along, you've got to do the same. you know that God is all powerful and all knowing and you are one of his children. we all have our moments when we have doubts and weaknesses because we're are still wounded and not getting much in return from our H. you could also ask SH if there are any more books that he would recommend you read. i'm going to do this myself next week.

still wishing you much strength, and sending you continued prayers and hugs and wish i could do more to help, we all wish we could do that for each other. but we can pray and "the effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much." God is still the best counselor of all, he's free and always available, and will always give you what you need. leave your worries at his feet and let him carry you to where you need to go. love, RR

RR, you know that i DO want to stay in Plan A and i am good at it. At leasrt from WH's comments. But all the other advices are telling me to go to plan B, even Dr. Harley.

What do I do?

If I stay in Plan A, people said that you are a doormat, you've suffered enough.

If i am in Plan B, I risk the chance to jump into it too soon, plus, I even don't know he is still in his A.

I will pray really hard and have GOD make the decision for me. I will also talk to SH, WH will talk to him too. WH said he willlisten to the CD tonight as scheduled.

you are a lot like me and want things to be specific and i'll try to be more that way but again, i can only give my opinion. ultimately you have to go w/what you are comfortable w/because AGAIN, you want to be able to look back and say that you did all you could. the only regrets that are allowed is on the behalf of the WS, that they DIDN'T GIVE THE BS A FAIR CHANCE. I'm sure God will continue to reveal his plan for you in some way it's just hard to wait, nothing will ever make it more easier to wait.

I would hire a PI to make sure he is still having an A. you don't really need a lot of evidence to convince you so it shouldn't cost that much. i hired a PI to find out the OW address and names of her parents (she lives w/them) and it only cost $50.00.

i would stay in plan A until you feel comfortable going into plan B.

talk to SH and be ecstatic that your H is going to as well.

i don't know about you but i write down stuff between my sessions w/SH so when things come to mind i will be able to relate them to him and then get his advice. it could be anything about if my H says or does this then what do i do or say? ask him to be specific w/you. SH has told me exact things to say, he's repeated it and given me time to write it down and i feel this is a great help to me. i don't know if you were going to talk to SH first then your H or if you were both going to be on the phone at the same time. be confident in the fact that if your goal is still to save your M that SH will help you do what is needed. so if given your situation he feels that plan B is needed then you've got to pray on it and then do it. ask SH to tell you if he thinks it's time for that or not. to be technical that's what we pay counselors for is to help us and "tell us what to do." for lack of a better way to say it.

AGAIN, take one day at a time, chip away the best you can, and stay the course. walkingoneggs has been dealing w/his WW waffeling for 2 years, he has amazing resolve and maybe he'll pop in here and give you suggestions as well. i personally think 6 months of plan A is a good timeline to have, others would probably disagree. so if you feel comfortable w/that timeline too then that would bring you into july (6 months past DDay), so consider that too, prayers to you.

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: roughroad ]</small>

Lostnhurt,
I am comparing my feelings and experiences to yours, which may be unfair. We did not separate because I wanted to be in Plan A and work out our M. In actual fact, I was not a doormat. I was a Renter. I thought that my sacrifices would influence him. WRONG!

I needed to become a Buyer who looks for win-win solutions and expects them. H disappearing is not win-win. It is win-lose, you sacrificing for your H's pleasure. A Buyer doesn't tolerate that sort of disregard.

I had a long, long thread on private e-mail with Harley about sacrifice and Christian view of sacrifice as holy, and he convinced me that sacrifice is disasterous in M. The more you sacrifice, the more your Freeloader H takes advantage of you.

Lostnhurt,

Let me recommend waiting on the Plan B for now. Why, you ask? I think there needs to be a time showing him a solid Plan A.

In this Plan A, make sure there are NO LB's. I would recommend that you start to take care of yourself and show him that you are willing to be happy with him or without him. I found that once my wife saw that I was able to be happy with or without her things began to change. Do things with the kids away from the home. A happy spouse is an attractive spouse.

I know that much of what we post her allow us to vent. Please ask yourself if the anger, hurt or depression is visible when he looks at you. Does he hear these feelings in between the lines of your conversation? I'm not saying ignore your feelings. I'm saying that in the Plan A phase show him everything that he "says" he's willing to give up so easily. Be the best wife, friend and lover in Plan A. Remember when/if you do go dark you want to look back at your Plan A with no regrets or "what if's?".

Titleist