I typed out most of Dr. Harley's response to person who had e-mailed the radio show. Dr. Harley identified the single mother of one as a Renter who was engaged to a man who sounded like a Freeloader. Lostnhurt, my H was abusive, which normally would put him in the category of Renter, but he used abuse as the only effective way to get me to stop asking him to sacrifice. And I was a Renter who was willing to sacrifice. So -- while I was buying clothes for myself and the children at a nearby thrift shop, my H was taking OW to the most romantic restaurant in the Twin Cities. I didn't like it but I thought I was doing my part to create a good relationship because I was willing to sacrifice. My H was terribly offended if I questioned any activity or objected to anything. When the affair came to light, he brought up how upset he had been that I wouldn't let him volunteer as a mortgage counselor for poor people. At the time, I was the main breadwinner, we had two children in daycare, he was going to business school at night, and I was doing all childcare and house work... I ended up with walking pneumonia.
Here is the transcript. It does a good job of summarizing the main points of Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders:
Dr. Harley: A Freeloader is a person who’s in a relationship to do pretty much what they feel like doing. And what makes him sound like he might be a Renter from time to time is that he expects her to do certain things for him. Most Freeloaders really won’t demand anything. They just say, you know, “If we’re right for each other, things will work. If we’re not right, they won’t work.” Freeloaders really don’t argue much. But what they do is they expect to do what they feel like doing and, if they feel like doing something, they just feel like they’re going to go out and do it and no one’s going to tell them not to do it.
Joyce: Which can cause the other person to argue a lot because they’re so upset.
Dr. Harley: Well, that’s true. If she’s a Renter, she says “OK. I’m willing to make bargains with you” and she uses the word “sacrifice” which is a key term of a Renter. Renters use the word sacrifice a lot. What Renters say is “I’ll sacrifice for you this time if you sacrifice for me next time” which means that they’re into win-lose agreements. An agreement for me is that I’ll let you win this time and I’ll lose this time if you let me win next time and you lose next time. Well, Freeloaders don’t go for that. They want to win every time…
Because she’s looking for sacrifice, she’s willing to make sacrifice for this man and she’s expecting him to make sacrifice for her. That whole idea forms the basis for all of their fights. And it’s a very, very important concept in marriage to understand. If you believe in sacrifice, if you believe that you should be loved unconditionally, if you believe that you should love unconditionally, you are a person who fights.
Joyce: Why is that concept of sacrifice – “I’ll get my way this time, next time you’ll get your way and I won’t be happy “ and then keep going back and forth – why is that type of life conducive to arguments and fighting? What brings it on?
Dr. Harley: Because it negates negotiation. It takes negotiation completely out of the equation. In other words, if I assume that you love me, you’ll do whatever it takes to make me happy, and then I notice that you didn’t do it today, then I will tell you that you have to do it. If you really love me, you’re going to do what I want you to do. And you say, well, I’m sorry, but I just don’t feel like doing it today.
Joyce: But you didn’t do something for me…
Dr. Harley: Well, you might use that argument, or you might use the argument that I just don’t have time, this is not something that’s on my schedule –
Joyce: It’s not that I don’t love you…
Dr. Harley: I love you fine. It’s just that it’s not…And instead of saying well, let’s see, how can I get what I need and have you happy doing it for me…I’m not going to go there at all. What I’m going to say is “You must not love me” and I’m going to start arguing with you. I’m going to start demanding things of you. I say…”You better start doing this for me whether you like it or not, or I’m going to make your life miserable.” And that’s essentially what fights are all about. Fights are expecting the other guy to do something for you without discussing the terms of the arrangement.
Joyce: I wonder if people listening are thinking to themselves, “Well, you know, we have embraced the concept of sacrifice in our marriage,” and I wondering if they’re recognizing these red flags and these warning signals…Is it typical? Do you think there’s an exception out there who could call in and say, “Well, you know, Dr. Harley, my wife and I, we sacrifice for each other and we love each other dearly. We’ve never had a harsh word.” Do you think that could happen?
Dr. Harley: Unlikely. As a matter of fact, if I would get to know them a little bit better, I would understand that they’re not really doing that at all. If they’re really getting along, they are negotiating.
Joyce: And they just don’t realize it…
Dr. Harley: And they are listening to each other, and they are responding in a way where they get mutual benefit out of each arrangement which is what my goal is. That’s essentially what I want every couple to make. But what I want them to understand is that when you come up with a mutually enjoyable conclusion to a situation where you say “This works for both of us”, you’re not making sacrifices. That’s not a sacrifice. That is win-win. Sacrifices are win-lose.
Jocye: OK, but some people have a hard time grasping that because they have had to give up their original desire and modify it or jump into another area totally because the original concept was not pleasing to their mate – and so they feel like they have sacrificed. They feel as if they have left something out. We’ve heard a lot of people talking about what they want to do recreationally together, well, in our case…I don’t enjoy football. Right? You love it. You’re not going to football games because I’m not joining you. You’ve sacrificed, some people would say.
Dr. Harley: Yeah, I don’t call that a sacrifice because I can put something else in that spot. In other words, that, if you say, “We’re not going to play football”, it doesn’t mean that I’m going to sit in a corner, in a chair, facing the wall, and just mope around. I’m going to do something else with my time. I’m going to enjoy some other activity that you and I could enjoy together.
Joyce: But isn’t there a moment in time when there isn’t a feeling of “I’m having to give something up…”
Dr. Harley: Well, if you’re in the habit of doing something that’s incompatible, there is a moment where you have to break out of that and develop something that is compatible, and any change requires energy and to some extent when people are making the change they might get the notion that they’re sacrificing but it’s like sacrificing to learn to type. In other words, you’re learning a new skill. Now to me you might think of going to typing lessons as a sacrifice. To me, a sacrifice is something where I lose. Sacrifice means I lose so you can gain, and I am dead-set against that in marriage because what it does is it makes me expect you to sacrifice then next time. And if we care for each other, neither of us wants the other one to suffer for either of our benefits. We want us to both gain whenever we make a decision. And I think that that’s such an important point for this poor lady that wrote this letter –
Joyce: Rosemary
Dr. Harley: She doesn’t understand the notion of negotiation, the idea of bargaining for the benefit of both of them simultaneously.
Joyce: What if she does understand but her fiancé does not? How can it work if only one person is willing to negotiate and the other isn’t?
Dr. Harley: Well, it’s sort of philosophical, and part of our job here on this radio show is to talk people into new philosophies. And there is a philosophy out there that if your relationship is right you’ll just sort of click -- and the things that you decide you’re going to do are things that the other person would feel comfortable with and you’re either kind of born to be compatible or you’re born to be incompatible and of course what we’ve seen is in case after case after case after case, you create compatibility in a relationship – you if you have a philosophy that says either we’re right for each other or we’re not, which is the Freeloader approach, I’m not going to do anything to try to accommodate you. There’s no point in our negotiating with each other, and there’s no point in me even trying to do something that would make you feel good because I’d be violating the principle that if we’re right for each other, I wouldn’t have to try. See – so, in other words, if I’m a Freeloader, you’re just going to be very, very frustrated with me. On the other hand, if I’m a Renter, you’re going to be arguing with me expecting me to sacrifice just like this lady did and the willingness for her to sacrifice. Now the solution is to be a Buyer…
Joyce: Both Buyers…
Dr. Harley: A Buyer is a person that says, “Our relationship can be terrific if we both try to accommodate each other whenever we make a decision. No sacrifices. But on the other hand we’re not going to do anything until we both agree. See. And that it’s an interesting idea – that, if we do nothing until we agree, doing nothing isn’t what we call a sacrifice.
Joyce: So Rosemary he isn’t your finance anyway…
Cherished
<small>[ May 06, 2004, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>
