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Funny thing, I have never cheated on my H, and I thought he took it for granted that I would always be faithful, but the other day after he hung up on me, he sent me an im - and the last comment on it was:

"BTW, How is your 'Special' friend ???"

Meaning, he thinks I have a boyfriend. I wrote him back saying that I am not with anyone else and never have been, but I thought about letting him stew...

Over the last year since we have been apart, I have lost weight and I look pretty good, I have started dressing more alluring, I have a job where I frequently meet available men, and get propositioned occasionaly, and since he doesn't come around much or call, he doesn't know what I am up to. We went out a few months ago and he saw me for the first time in years, wearing sexy clothes, heels etc.

I think he is getting nervous.

Good.

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*chuckle!*

Heh heh-- I agree with ARK, Shul and Cali. In Torn Asunder, there is a section on what to do when the WS won't address tough issues. As Cali described, this 'technique' will provoke a necessary and desired emotional response. It is used in alcohol treatment circles when an alcoholic refuses to seek treatment. Rather than allowing the alcoholic or the WS to fall to the bottom, this technique 'brings the bottom up'.

I have also been thinking about using this on FWH. However, I don't know when is the right time to do it. I have a very detailed story which I am sure will blow FWH away. However, my story 'happened' in the past... during our one year separation. I think it is easier if I just came out to 'confess' a past A, not one that is happening. It also explains my exessive shopping for clothes and make up during that time. Can anyone share what is a good timing for this 'revelation'?

(Note to Shul-- I have always had a mental picture of you. Now you are in soft chiffon dress and kitten heels. Lol!)

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[edited cause I am WAY tired] ruffled... THANKS! I couldn't remember the exact book and have been pondering it all day... Torn Asunder!

I really believe that you shouldn't undertake this on-the-spur-of-the-moment... that if you are in counseling, you should have the counselor facilitate it...

AND, make sure you read the section in Torn Asunder for the details.

I never had to go into detail... what actually occurred was once some people thought I was available, I got some interesting invitations. One former co-worker invited me to go w/ him and another guy on a Thanksgiving trip up the coast to visit some other former co-worker friends. I told H of the invitation... but the "Thanksgiving" didn't register and when I was very late not coming home one Friday night and I didn't call him... he lost it... thought I had gone on the weekend w/ the guys... LOL... shook up his little world. Now... the not calling and being late was purposeful... but him thinking I had left for the weekend was not... but, it suited the purpose of him understanding how it felt to think your spouse had or was going to boff another (and another that you KNEW and could VISUALIZE).

Just take care.

Cali

<small>[ May 29, 2004, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Cali ]</small>

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Hope you're feeling better, nikko.

I'm in agreement with sufdb. Every situation is different, but mine has a lot in common with yours. My wife has mostly been withdrawn from me and our kids and life in general for a long time. When your spouse has a deep need for lots of quality time with the TV, the bed, beer, etc. it's hard for them to find time to care for their spouse or kids.

She has other problems than just selfishness, I understand. But I concluded that at some point if I just continued on and allowed this I was enabling her dysfunctional behavior. For the second time in a few months, and more determinedly I indicated that if there was no change I wanted to divorce.

So far she has responded and has been making an effort. How long it continues and where it leads to I don't know.

But I do think that at some point one has to do what it takes to motivate an uncooperative spouse to get with the program.

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Nikko,
During the first 1 1/2 years of H's PA, he absolutely encouraged me to find someone else.

I didn't.

Then, about the 6th separation, a "safe" male friend started to seem appealing. At the 7th separation, and discovering that H's PA might be over, but the EA definitely was not, the friend was very appealing. I served D papers and dating simultaneoulsy.

H & I reconciled a few months later.

The thing is, by doing in reality what you are talking about in fantasy...I do regret it. My H broke his vows, but my vows had been kept through some very tough times and I do believe I would be more content with my own behavior had I not dated/had that relationship.

Would my H have still reconciled? I really don't know. The OM was a factor in my H's change of heart, not the whole of it, however...I can't disregard it nor take that factor out.

But...my disappointment in me and my behavior is real.

Affairs have consequences, so does lying. Keep your honor in either regard, if you can.

That's my best take, having slogged through it.

And...prior to that, trying to make my H feel or think like he might if I went to someone else had no affect whatsoever. In abstract, he thought it was a goodish kind of idea. In reality, he wanted me to end it.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nikko:
<strong> thank you for comming out for me--i really appreciate it. i knew someone else out there knew what i was feeling.

i cant post long her--i am in horrible shape...mini breakdown i guess. not sure how to feel---started crying and couldnt stop---been crying all day. havent ever really dont that---letting it go, who knows maybe ill feel better when it stops.

i'll post more when i get it together---thanks all for talking about this with me..... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My dear Nikko,

I am sad to see you in such pain. I can see many helping you.

Let's see, your pain keeps showing up at the most inappropriate times (like there ever is a good time for such pain - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). Nonetheless, the pain is real and needs to be addressed.

Long time ago it was stated that a BS also goes through stages. I went through the one you are going through more than once.

How to have that meaningful discussion with your H so that this pain can go away? Do you need to? Probably. How? There s/b $$ in the answer that works. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Here's my shot and my experience:

1. I let my H know his presence did not make me feel safe. If he wanted to know what about his presence that made me feel this way it w/b something we needed to discuss and I dropped it.

2. H asked if I wanted to have an A. I told him, I wanted to be cared, loved, supported (emotionally/mentally/spiritually and of course financially). Would having an A get me that? I posed that question to H. His response to that same question helped me see which plan to use.

3. I learned to communicate my feelings and needs more as a question to him that statements. Not all the time but periodcially. He knows when I say something like: 'can I ask you a question', he knows what's coming and has been more open to hearing and responding. This took time.

4. I learned I had to initially patiently wait for the response until he saw my techhique was not a setup for him. He had to learn to trust me also.

The point is that I didn't do more for him, I did less. Our previous R was me as the giver and the takers weren't giving. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I learned not to go that route anymore. It was not healthy for myself and my M.

Hope this helps.

L.

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Hi nikko

I have thought about it too. And not for make him believe, but because I needed at some time somebody to care for me. Why it didn't happen? Because I think God is great, it wouldn't do me or my M any good. If that would have happened to me, I don't think I would be clear enough to think and grow like I do today.

I know you have tryed all to save your M and to get your H and the relationship you want back.

In theory, what Ark^^, Caly and Shul have said, would be "bad", for me it would be a make believe game, and to some degree a try in the dark on make him come to his senses and get a result. In a way, try to control things.
In theory it's "bad" because you would create a climate for him to believe you are having an A, and maybe he will come around and think things over. Nikko, you have told your H many times, that ain't going to happen. That was in the past.

In practice, this is a very dangerous game, you have felt yourself the pain of it. Do you really want your H to got the same pain? Even for the right reasons to fix your M? We have saw a very successful story about it on Carol's, and maybe it's what your H needs to work on your M.

Since you have tryed it all, and not this route, maybe this is the last one you have to explore. Saddly theory and practice, sometimes doesn't agree. In theory, we would have to talk things over before A happens, but what made them happen? Selfish behavior.

I been thinking, that we sometimes give too much. At least I did. When some of my needs were unmet, I talked things over, and when still those needs were not fullfilled, I settled for the needs that were met, and that made me "happy". Like who's M is perfect huh? So I tryed to live with what I got the best I could, and be happy about it. What happened, was that some of my H's needs were not met also, but he didn't talked those things over, and he decided to get them fullfilled in another relationship. He didn't settled AT ALL. My main goal here, is to both get our needs met in this M. If that's not happening on some time, then we are both free to go. Like I have told him many times, I have changed a lot, and I'm giving him time to change, if he doesn't, or if I don't change the to meet those needs the way he wants them, it didn't worked in the past, and is not going to work in the future. For either of us.

I loved what orchid posted and I quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The point is that I didn't do more for him, I did less. Our previous R was me as the giver and the takers weren't giving. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are giving too much, you have tryed all routes besides this one, but for you to do this route, you also have to change a lot, you need to become the person you used to be. Look for that lady, and work on her nikko. How effective it's going to be? It depends on how hard you work in yourself. Release the pain, the anger, and the frustration. Buy a punching bag and punch it, leave it there, and start changing yourself and become a strong and independend woman again. Seek help. If you do this kind of changes, I can guarantee you some others will come around. It's not neccesarily the ones you might be seeking, but in the end, you'll be strong again to make whatever choice you decide to do.

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In theory, what Ark^^, Caly and Shul have said, would be "bad", for me it would be a make believe game, and to some degree a try in the dark on make him come to his senses and get a result. In a way, try to control things.

I am not suggesting any type of control...
the exact opposite.
I am suggesting ALL aspects of asking/begging for any thing from him...
and presenting to him someone who can be happy in life and interested in things out there in the world...instead of this dark focus of always saying to spouse...

love me...

my suggestion is that Nikko feel that love in and for life..inspite of her husbands CHOICE to do nothing....

I am not suggesting an affair..
I am not even suggesting to much of the illusion...
(OK i get the phone call hang ups were over the edge <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

but I am VERY concerned over what three years of living in those conditions to do a persons soul...
very concerned...

In practice, this is a very dangerous game, you have felt yourself the pain of it. Do you really want your H to got the same pain?

It is NOT a game..it is a glimpse of the reality of HIS personal choices that he MAKES every day to not plug in to the one persons life on this planet that he should be TRYING to connect him do...

ofcourse he should NOT be protected from the pain and reality of his own actions...
If we took that route..then we are all doomed to live in unacceptable conditions based on others actions and our wish to protect them does them and ourselves no real service......

I suggest nikko stop ALL relationship talk...
all engaging him what he should do...

he knows what he should do...
I would show him glimpses of his choice not to do..
without malace
without anger...

show him happy nikko no longer dragged down by his issues....

I always believe actions speak louder than words...
he has made his choice up till now..

nikko has the right to make hers based on his...

it's not control...if anything it is the release of control....

peace matilde..

ark

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Darn you Ark - I was thinking along those lines too and you go and write it so well......!!!

Nikko - if you really have made personal changes that make you a better partner, and a better person overall - and you're meeting all of his needs better than ever - and he's still not budging - then it's time to do something differently.

I think that pouring all your energy in to meeting HIS needs, when he seems to be CONCIOUSLY holding out on meeting your needs, is wearing you out. Start pouring that energy in to meeting YOUR OWN needs. I know that won't make your marriage the way you want it to be, but it may make life a lot more fulfilling. I was also thinking along the lines that Ark said - about ACTING like there was someone or something else in your life. It doesn't have to be an act - it doesn't have to be quite as well thought out and elaborate as she's written. Simply making time for yourself and getting some LIFE back in to your life - is enough to put a smile back on your face. And if you're at home, singing and smiling and in a great mood - and not seemingly all that interested in sharing about it with your H - my guess is he'll start being curious as to why. And what if he isn't? Then you know, without a doubt, that this is no longer a game with him - he simply is not interested in truly being married - he's interested in having his laundry done and his children cared for.

If he really is a huge conflict avoider - he may be using passive aggresive behavior to drive you to divorce HIM - so he doesn't have to do the dirty work. Or - he could just be completely stubborn. I don't know - but as long as you're meeting his every need and putting up with his lack of reciprocation - there are no real consequences to his inaction. You've already told him - you've written letters - he knows what to do. Time to back off of meeting any extra needs other than the very basic ones necessary, and start pouring that energy in to yourself.

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Ark^^

I'm sorry if in anyway I missunderstood what you tryed to tell, but that was nikko's question right? To tell him she had an A even if it's not true to make him out of his walls.

I'm also VERY concerned on nikko's health and state of mind. She has become a dear friend of me over time, and I do realize how much this has affected her. That is why I suggested to drop it, and start working in herself, and become the lady she used to be before all this happened. Maybe we can not be the ones we used to be, but one has to deal with the things that get into our life with attitude. Could be a bad one (have plenty of that myself), or for a change, try to learn and get better if we can over time.

I do know, that will not happen overnight, but she has to do the baby steps each day to become better, not for her H but for herself, and maybe over time those changes will bring other things as I said, to make her choice with a healthy mind and spirit. But she has to do those changes, if she wants a "happy" ending whatever that is for her. I do know that even if we want it or not, some changes came along by themself, and that she has become a better lady in many aspects. But still she needs others.

Nikko this is for you, you have to seek help. Not MC, but IC for you. Three years on this had worn you out. You have been trying so hard, that you got no energy left. Use the little amount you got, in becoming YOURSELF better. You have to do it!. Do not waste another minute over it. You need peace, SEEK IT!, it will not come to your door, SEEK IT.

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((((((( nikko ))))))))

When in plan A, I talked to my H about me dating other men. After all, he was so busy dating other women, and was fairly open about it, so why shouldn't I do the same thing? Of course, as a typical WS, he came right out and told me that I shouldn't, b/c it wasn't right. You know... all the usual fogtalk, and a typical "do as I say, not as I do" situation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

That situation works for many of us dealing with a WS that are still actively involved in their A's... or at least fence sitting.

You are NOT in that situation now... and "YES"!! I totally validate your feelings on wanting to shake your H outta his books, and be forced into working on the M! I know why you want to tell him you had an A too (technically, doesn't time on MB qualify as an EA?)... but deep down inside, you know it's wrong to do that. It's YOUR taker coming out, and that's why you posted about it on here, instead of just going ahead and doing it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You've already given your H many timelines. I'm surprised you've found it in you to do it again, by giving him until the end of the summer. By that time, are you going to come up with another time limit? You keep on shifting your boundaries on that, and your H hasn't had to deal with any consequences from his INaction.

We all know, it's NOT about the A anymore. It's far beyond that. It's about maintaining the M and keeping it alive and healthy... something it hasn't really been, ever, has it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I don't know if anything I've said is helping. I think I'm rambling now. LOL. And I also should get my butt off of this computer, so I can get the kids outside, and hopefully have things quiet enough around here to give you a call! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care, my dear friend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hopefully we'll talk very soon.

Love,
Karen

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ladies--thank you soo much---please keep at it with me. i have read all the responses--i cant put much thought together at the moment so im gonna just recap the evening.

hubby gets home...knows something is wrong(my face is swollen the size of a pumpkin from crying and im not functioning---think that tipped him off?) he sits me at the head of dinning room table, kind of odd, thats his chair, and puts my dinner plate in front of me. i push food around and take a few bites---no talk. after dinner he asks do i want to go to the hospital.(i really should have but my kids need me)i told him, why what are they gonna do or say that i dont allready know? he says nothing. then a bit later he asks if he can do anything to help?(gee--ya think meeting my needs would come to mind...but its my hubby we are dealing with here.) i just looked at him through glazed eyes and said----fix you or set me free----i am dying.

he didnt say anything---so i said--ok, tell me why, why you are like this. make me understand?
got the big i dont know. at that point i just didnt want to breath...so i said im going up to bed---he asked if i wanted him to come and lay with me....i said no. i would rather you didnt.

now i know you all want to slam me for saying this...but let me explain. the whole chair thing was so he could see the baseball game going on behind me---the whole time he was faking looking at me and watching it going on behind my head. nice huh---your wife is having a total collapse ---but you get the score hunny.

wanna know how i keep going....anger, pure anger.

im gonna go cry again...i have read all the posts and i will post more later---thank you all.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's YOUR taker coming out, and that's why you posted about it on here, instead of just going ahead and doing it! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">truly great insight Topie!

nikko: let me give it a little bit of a spin...

why can't you meet your own needs? why do you feel you need him to meet your needs?

how would you feel if you could meet your own needs? would it feel "wrong" to you? would it feel like he'd "gotten away" with something?

if you could meet your own needs, would you end the M?

awed

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Big thumbs up to what Awed said.

Take care of yourself Nikko. Come back and talk to us some more.

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Nikko, quite honestly I'm not all that familiar with your story. But I have been here for the required 3 plus years and have certainly had the fantasy of having an A. In fact my W's OM dated a 26 yr old go-go dancer who showed some interest in me. So yes that one was very tempting. But the one thing that struck me out of all the responses was the first one. ZizzyCool question, what plan are you in. I often wonder that myself. What Plan am I in. All I do is enable this behavior to go on. But I finally decided that this will be the year. We are quickly approaching a fork in the road. It's not A or B or even D. Just what I need. And for me that is no contact for ME. W will continue living fantasy life but I'm no longer going to participate. So I don't think you'll get his attention with a made up A and only lose credibility when you ackowlege it's false. Maybe make some decisions about what is going to put you in a better place. Bring out the taker for the next 6 months. That should get his attention. Stop chasing and reverse the roles. When I say chasing I mean stop doing all the work of recovery. Let him drag the wagon for 6 months and wonder what's going on in your mind. Maybe then you'll get a glimpse into the Fort. If you find anything that works I'd sure like to hear from you.

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i finally years ago started to meet my own needs----and did so quite well. i was happy, things were feeling great to me, had a great job and kids were all doing well.......

he felt so left out he had an affair! he turned it around on me---i didnt need him, i was doing my own thing,,blah blah blah. so this is why i am stuck----if i do it again for myself---will he do it again to me?

oh i am reading---cant post to everyone--so i am going to try to single a few things out---my brain is still recovering from mushland. LOL

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ok---have the counselor.....drew the line in the sand about him working on himself and the marriage....deadline is latest, middle of summer(gives me time to adjust son before school starts).i think this week i need to talk to an attorney to find out just what i am facing and what i am entitled to.

i am trying everyday to get out and do things---even if they seem simple. i have become agoraphobic in all this. but i am working on it. i have to find my way back to me.

so thats the plan at the moment.....any other ideas???

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well, yeah I do...if you want to answer a couple more questions first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he felt so left out he had an affair! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and do you agree with him? do you think this is really why he had an affair?

if fear is part of the reason why you do not want to meet your own needs, can you envision meeting your own needs without making your S feel excluded?

in other words, if you being a happy, busy person leaves him feeling left out of your life, is there another way to go about this?

or do you believe that it is an all or nothing proposition? either HE is responsible for your happiness and you remain M, or YOU are responsible for your happiness and you D?

awed

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no i dont believe it---its a crap excuse! he is excluded because he wants to be. let me explain.

hubby works terribly long hours---is gone from about 8 am till 1030-11 pm. he has tues and sunday off. spends those days being busy with his things so he doesnt have to connect. his things are yard work and errands to lowes. yes i go to lowes but we arent even together in the store---he always goes off on his own. he doesnt want to plug in and connect---he chooses not to. so no it was a crap excuse. (i know it) but the legacy of the pain remains. i know i should be moving on and making me happy but in doing so he has his excuse again. (in his mind) i wanted to take that excuse away---be available to meet his needs and do plan a. i have been in plan a waaaaay to long. lol


now is he responsible for me being happy---no. thats my job, i know that. what he is responsible for is meeting my needs to make me feel safe and in love. just like that is my job for him. but he refuses. like i said---middle of the month is comming.....he just doesnt know it!

so do i tell the counselor of my middle of the month plan? or do i just wait?

lets get me back on track ladies----this is helping.....thanks!

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i know i should be moving on and making me happy but in doing so he has his excuse again. (in his mind) i wanted to take that excuse away </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so...at the root, you believe that you really ARE responsible for his actions then? you have control over what he does?

in other words, if you do X, then he will not do Y, therefore you need to keep on doing X to keep him from doing Y, even though doing X is driving you crazy?

have I got it straight now?

this is no joke...

I am trying to pull out your bottom line one question at a time so you can see the answer right in front of you...

what do I think? I don't think a timeline is ever a good idea unless it is TODAY, and perhaps TOMORROW...other than that, pull a Scarlett O'Hara and simply think about it later...

change takes time...deadlines are illusions that make us think we feel better but really they just give us something to obsess about...changing ourselves is darn hard work and if we look at the road, it is exhausting...but one day at a time...that is do-able...

what I personally ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) would really like to see you do is ark's (modified) plan without any thought of HIM at all! why not read books, hum to yourself, smile secretly, go out, have fun, live life...for nikko! no need to fake an affair...be happy in and of yourself...

if you are doing this for yourself, to feel better about yourself and your life, and it works...and then the fact that you are feeling good about yourself and your life makes your H feel excluded, what would that tell you?

but...that is still a long ways away yet...until you feel better about yourself, you have no idea what the impact of that will be on your H...

and nikko: it WAS a crap excuse...so you being happy did NOT cause his A...therefore you BEING happy will still not cause his A...therefore there is no reason that you should continue to do things that are making you unhappy...and agoraphobic...

I hope some of this helps you come to a decision that is good for you...I wish you the very best...take care...awed

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