I have found roughroad's (and others') accounts of their SH sessions very helpful, so I'm going to start a running account of my sessions... I don't write many posts, so I'll probably just put any updates to my situation in here too, as they arise...

Quick summary for those of you not familiar...

Wife got her own apartment in March for 'time and space'. I was suspicious of an A all along, and confirmed it in early May. We're each responsible for our own expenses, and she has run up $8000 in credit card debt since she left. From what I can tell, much of that was spent on a lot of new age type stuff. This is a complete 180 for her, as she was raised very conservatively. Her family is very upset with her, not only for the affair, but also just for leaving me. I spent the first 2 months doing all the wrong things: begging, pleading etc. For the last 2+ weeks, I've backed off, and am just giving her the time and space that she desired. We see each other twice a week to exchange our dogs, and we have very friendly, if short, conversations during those times. I know she is still in the A. Oh, and the WH is 48, 20 years older than WW. She wants kids, so that doesn't seem like a perfect match to me, but nevertheless...

So...

I had my first appt. with SH today, and here's what he said:

While the begging and pleading of the first two months is not the optimal response, it served a purpose to show WW that I'm dedicated to fixing our M. He also said that I'm doing the right things now, by essentially only showing WW the good side of me. I need to show her that I have changed for the better, and that the changes are permanent. I actually think I'm succeeding here, but the OM still has a hold on her.

SH asked for appt with WW (very similar to roughroad's story), and told me to ask her as though it was a request from him, to help with my counseling. During that conversation, he will then try to plant seeds of doubt in her head, trying to make her see that our M is worth fighting for. WW agreed, so I'm trying to get her an appt for monday.

SH said that our primary issue is convincing WW that she could be happy again in our M. The secondary issue is the A, but taking care of the first issue would likely take care of the second. I never really thought about it that way.

I think that's about it... WW session is Monday (provided there is an open slot), and my follow-up will likely be shortly thereafter.

-phantom

i am sooooooooooooooooooo glad to hear this news from you and will do my very best to keep up w/this thread as you let us know how it goes. remember it's a chipping away process and a very agonizing process to show the WS our change but we have got to follow our words w/actions. my only suggestion is to not get your hopes too high. but the whole planting the seeds thing is very true as others will atest to as well.

i'm glad someone else besides lostnhurt reads my counseling posts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> no i'm just kidding but w/some many similarities amongst us i thought it would be helpful to share. i don't remember if i told you to take notes when you talk to SH and if you think of anything in between sessions then write it down. it doesn't really matter if you end up talking about it or not but sometimes it just helps you to focus during the sessions if there is something in particular you want to talk about. when i first started i had tons of things written down to talk to SH about. i usually got all it answered.

stay w/us, MB, and SH and even if it's a long rough road you'll find that you are able to achieve some peace and control in these "uncontrolled" times. just don't forget the best counselor of all, which is God. prayers to you, RR

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: roughroad ]</small>

Yeah, I had a couple pages of notes, as I didn't want to leave anything out. My concentration is horrible right now, so I take notes for any important conversation; otherwise, I'd forget everything. I'll definitely keep a running list of questions in between session.

Thanks for the support!

when's the next session for you or for your wife?

WW is actually talking to him right now. I'm going to try to talk to him on Wednesday. I'm anxious to hear what he thinks... Just saw your post that says you'll be talking to him on Wed too. Let's hope for a good day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: phantom8808 ]</small>

definitely! and i'm so happy that she's talking to him! what a blessing!

as far as your next session when you talk to SH about what your W talked about w/him, don't expect for him to tell you everything verbatum. i wanted details what exactly was said by SH and my H. but SH didn't tell me things that way, that still kind of urks me a little <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> but that's just the control freak in me still. the point of our spouses talking to SH is to plant seeds and for them to talk and evidently that is what is happening. i just wanted to give you heads up.

prayers to you, RR

also wanted to say to ask SH how you should handle the fact that your W talked to SH. by that i mean given your situation, what would SH's specific instructions be for you. more than likely he will suggest that you not bring it up at all but that's just my experience. ask him to be specific w/you and he will tell you things to say and even give you time to write them down! maybe you don't need this but i sure did.

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: roughroad ]</small>

Just talked to WW, and supposedly due to her dyslexia, she had 2 of the digits transposed, so she never got through to him. I think I believe her, so I'll try to set up another appt for this week. Good grief.

Went to pick up the dogs today, because she said that "delivery men" were coming to deliver some bedroom furniture (more stuff bought on credit, no doubt), and she wanted the dogs out of the way. Well, she was gone, but her car was there, which means that the "delivery man" is the OM, and she's with him at the store picking up the furniture. Or maybe he's giving her some furniture from his house. Who knows. Why the blatant lies when they've already been caught.

This is tiring.

okay, what can i say? not much, your W is in an addiction, in a fog, her body is overtaken by aliens, etc.

well lets talk about the dogs, what kind do you have? how old? male or female? how do you feel about them? i'm pretty much going into withdrawal over my dogs. it's not that my H wants them, etc. but when i moved to where i am (in another state but not because of this) i wasn't able to have them and this was only going to be "temporary." well we all know how things went <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

anyway, i'll be moving into my own place this weekend and finally be in a position to have my dogs. now it's just the matter of getting them. it's about a 12 hour drive from where i am to where my H is, our house, and the dogs. i only have a pick up truck so it would not be a pleasant ride to have 2 big dogs up in the cab w/me for 12 hours. ideally, my H who has a car could bring them up here to me. will that happen? i'll find out in a couple of weeks when i see my H the july 4th weekend. if he (not per my ultmatium but through negotiation) does not or will not bring the dogs to where i am than i will have to either drive w/them both in the cab or put one of them in the back in a kennel.

i'll have to let you know how that goes. but i NEED my dogs, i NEED my babies and it is tearing me up inside not to have them and imagine how they are not being taken care of. i haven't seen them since march. what am i trying to say? don't make the dogs pay for your W's immaturity or carelessness. they need love too. okay, i'll get off my soapbox. gotta go for the day, prayers to you, RR

We have 2 miniature schnauzers, Ralph & Alice (the Honeymooners) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Honestly, they've always been my wife's dogs, but I've really grown to love them, and miss them when they're not here. That's why I drive the 20 miles to/from her apartment (I know, nothing compared to 12 hours) twice a week. Plus, I work from home, so they can be running around here; whereas, they're in their cages all day at her apartment.

This is Alice (quite possibly the cutest, if dumbest, dog in the world)
http://www.pbase.com/image/13098853
http://www.pbase.com/image/20547451

This is Ralph (quite possibley the smartest dog in the world)
http://www.pbase.com/image/11493446
http://www.pbase.com/image/11493462

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: phantom8808 ]</small>

How totally cute!!!

We should have a "cutest pet" contest.

Don't you think?

Lucky for you I don't have a digital camera or a scanner, mine would still win. darn it...or should I say shoot?

Weaver

well how absolutely darling, i actually am not a big schnauzer fan but they are cute i must admit. i'm sure the unconditional love and happiness they show you helps feel a void to a certain degree.

the idea of the "cutest pet" is neat, i don't have a digital camera or a way to download pictures myself so i guess i would be out too but my aussie blue heeler and dalmation/lab mix just might take the show! can't wait to get those guys back and a part of my life again, they probably think i've abandoned them and that is getting pretty hard to live with.

prayers to all, RR

To the moon Alice, and take Phantoms wife she is all ready infested with Aliens!!!!!

I'm not a dog person but cute pups. I just had to barge in, I'm like that, I see a journal, and must invade. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The fog is so thick in your area Phantom I have a hard time reading your post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Deliver man, so is that what she is calling him this week. Ugh for you.

RR, don't you hate that client/patient confidentiality crap. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Weaver, your older than I. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Yup utter nonsense, I'll go mind my own business now.
Have a great day ya'all.
KY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

client confidentiality, how to explain what SH told me? hmmmmmmmm................it wasn't really that SH couldn't tell me what my H said, in fact, he said that unless my H asked SH specifically not to tell me something, SH said that the client confidentiality thing didn't really apply to these situations. i'm probably not making any sense. but if i asked SH a direct question about my H or what they talked about he would answer it and if SH and i happened to be talking about something and SH brought in something my H said then so be it.

i guess maybe another way to explain it would be compared to my sessions w/SH thread. i hold nothing back and pretty much write everything verbatum of what SH says and what i ask and say. that's not what SH does in relaying what the WS says. he doesn't say "okay i talked to your spouse and this is what they said and what i said" he just tells you little tidbits here and there. i guess it's really not the purpose to tell the BS everything the WS says because it probably wouldn't help much and i'm sure SH knows what he's doing but at the same time, i think it is the purpose to tell the BS what the WS says in order to help us and keep us posted. SH just doesn't converse w/you the way you and i normally would talk about what someone says.

hope that makes sense. God bless, RR

Haven't posted much lately, as I've been super busy with work (and that's not likely to change anytime soon, as I'm traveling to Manhattan next week).

WW spoke to SH yesterday. My next appt is Friday afternoon. I'm dying to know what SH thinks now. I know he won't tell me much, but I'm hoping he has some new info.

Not sure, but I think WW and OM are going away together this weekend. Wonderful. Her credit card debt is now up to $9200 (will increase to $10200 tomorrow, when her rent posts). Car insurance due this month, so she won't dig out at all. Only $1800 until she's maxed out... then what? Ask OM for money? Get another credit card? I can't believe OM would be impressed with her financial situation, but then again, she's 20 years younger than him, so he may go to great lengths to keep her.

I'm actually beginning to have a change of heart about things. I want desperately to save our M, but if this is really the new person that WW has become, then frankly, I want no parts of her.

Played golf last Friday... golf is HARD, though I can definitely see myself getting addicted to it.

Life goes on...

Hi phantom,

I just read your posts.I think it's great you have Steve on your side(or rather the side of your marriage).I tried to get my WH to do counselg with him but he didn't want to do ANY work on our marriage.Still doesn't.Homewrecker doesn't know what she has in store for her.If he can't work on his current marriage,he isn't going to on the next if there is one(HURL!).He thinks marriage is supposed to magical and amazing all by itself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

It's too bad about your WW being in a fog as well when she is already deep in debt.Geeze.I always cringe when I hear of people in debt with those nasty credit cards.She is going to keep digging herself in deeper and deeper until she is halfway to China and then what? Oh boy.I don't even want to think about being in her shoes.I don't remember if you already mentioned but I sure hope your bank accounts are SEPARATE.

Hang in there.

O

OH YES, our bank accounts are separate. She's always been HORRIBLE when it comes to managing money. When we got married, I took control of the finances. She always agreed with me that that's how it should be (she realizes how inept she is with money), but one of the reasons that she left is that I'm too controlling. Go figure. You see what happens when I'm not! $10,000 in 3 months!!

We've dug out of worse in the past. The key word there being "we". Left alone to her devices, the debt will just continue to grow. It's painful to watch her self-destruct like this, but maybe that's what she needs to do.

hey phantom, glad to hear that your W talked to SH and that you have a follow-up session. let us know what he says.

don't get me started on the credit cards, and i'm the one who has run them up for the most part. i wasn't really using them until dday and since then it has mainly been to pay for sessions w/SH. at this point i just feel that i cannot pass up the opportunities to counsel w/SH then if it is at all in my power then i have to do it, for me. as you know the cost of those sessions runs up the credit cards pretty fast. i could also die tomorrow and the credit balance would still be there regardless whether it was a $100 or $5000.
I feel my M is worth it, but honestly my H doesn't know how much the sessions cost. i'm not saying that if people don't counsel w/SH then their M aren't worth it but at this point w/my limited contact w/my H it's the best thing for me. on the other hand though, i've run out of room on my credit cards so i'll have to wait until i come across some additional funds in order to counsel again.

well, wish you continued strength and prayers in this process, RR

Just got back from picking up the dogs from WW's apartment... She left her laptop there, so of course I couldn't resist. I checked her email, and traced messages between WW and OM back to before she moved out (I always knew that was the case, but had never proven it until now).

What's interesting is that OM wants to take it slow (at least that's what he says in his emails). He acknowledges that he's an "old fart with a lot of baggage". He also said that he may be moving back to Germany for work this summer, which would be a good thing (unless WW decided to go with him). He also said that they should both see other people (though that message was dated April 6, so I'm sure he feels differently now)

He also mentioned "a few bills that have been overdue for a bit too long". They'll be quite the pair... a couple of financial geniuses.

WW seems to be the one that is pressuring him, as there were very few emails from him that weren't replies to WW's originating email.

Also found a journal with her tarot cards. Most of the pages had been ripped out, but there was an entry dated 6/29. It said something to the effect of "Does OM love me? Surprised by this gift he has been given. He is still unsure about how we started".

This just happened so fast. The first messages were the week before she moved out !?!?!

I don't know what's up with me tonight, but the more I think about my discovery today, the angrier I get. I am absolutely livid right now. Just seeing the small talk between the two of them. Virtually every time I ever emailed her at work, she wouldn't answer because she was too busy. But now she's emailing back and forth with OM every day. I've been in pretty good spirits for the last couple of weeks. I don't know why this one thing has fired me up so much, but it has.

I can't get it out of my head that this jacka$$ is 20 YEARS OLDER than she is. This can't possibly last. With today's rent due, her credit card debt is now more than $10,000. Less than $2,000 until it's maxed out. I wonder how she's going to pay for August's rent. I don't want to, but I've got to talk to a lawyer so I can protect myself. I think I'm going to have to push for a separation agreement just because of her recklessness. She's going to be paying $250/month in interest ALONE.

She's going to crash HARD. The longer this goes on the harder it's going to be.

Seriously considering going to Plan B. I just can't watch this anymore. I'll see what SH has to say tomorrow.

Pham...you know reading the emails will hurt you so avoid them next time.

i avoided the credit card bills for 3 months after he left...last month my curiousity won over...

i was furious to find out he spent so much money on OW. My WS is also not good at keeping track of money. I am very sure he will run out the savings he has in his account in one years time.

The more info you find out, the more you will feel like leaving WS.

Sometimes its better you dont find out. Work on yourself and focus on your objective to save the marriage. When you are ready then you go to plan B.