We met for two hours. It was a wild roller coaster ride. I did very well. She was extremely receptive to my impressions about things. But emotionally she is not there.

It's a long story. I don't want to post 10 pages. But I could. And might anyway.

First, we made small talk. Every time I said something about what I'm up to, she would say, "Good," like it was cool I am doing things. But not like she wants any part of them.

She asked about money, so we covered that. Her armor was on and her weapons were up. She was annoyed at my hesitation to agree about numbers right then and there. I was too nervous to do math.

She asked how soon I'll be ready to "dissolve the marriage". Or did she ask why I don't want to? I forget. I told her I don't know, that I have lots of emotion to work through before I'm prepared for that sort of thing.

There was a long pause, and her face went slack and she dropped her weapons. She talked about being amazed by how screwed up her life has become.

I was sort of able to describe my own pain - I did it by trying to help her imagine what OMW has gone through, rather than talking about myself. After a while, she said she was overwhelmed by the realization of what she has done. I said, "[OMW] is not a villain." She looked downcast, and said that things were not portrayed to her in that way.

I talked a little about the support I've gotten and what I've learned about myself. She asked me to tell her what I know from all my reading &c. I was hesitant, but she said she was mixed up and wanted to understand what's going on. I talked about people in A's saying "I'm not the kind of person who has an A so it must be for real." I said many, maybe most, affairs don't have anything to do with randy philandering. Many, maybe most, are between people like her and OM. She was surprised. I talked about rationalizing, about seeing the M through a different and in my view distorted lens. I talked about the WS not having enough faith in the BS to believe feelings could ever be restored. I talked about romantics seeking "in love" feelings no matter the cost. I talked about the BS thinking the M was over before the A began, and how the WS sees it exactly the opposite way. That was something we talked about quite a bit. Everything I talked about, she nodded and agreed that this is what's gone through her head.

Many times I offered to stop and reiterated that I was hesitant to try to sound so authoritative. She asked me to keep going. I talked about the fog. I told her about fogese. She asked what she said that was fogese and I told her. She said that just because lots of WS say these things it doesn't mean they aren't valid and true. I said that maybe some of those things are used as easy escapes. At no point were we arguing about this stuff.

Eventually, I talked about my own role in making our M vulnerable. She said she sees now how much I hurt her over the years. She asked for my take on it. I told her everything I've thought about. I said I'm going to overcome these things with or without you. She said good. She was surprised to see how well I understand my part in this.

At one point she said "I don't even know why you would want me back." I said "I still believe in you." Another time I said, "I know you're hurting, and I would give almost anything to help take away your pain, but I can't do that unless you want me to." She nodded in agreement.

At the beginning of the meeting she was talking about trying to figure out if OM is trustworthy. She has not seen him in a week. By the end she was talking about needing to figure out her feelings for me before she knows what to do. She asked how long it would take before I wanted to get a D. I said I don't know, that it's impossible for me to know. When it was a good time, I told her that I think the clearest route to happiness for both of us is together.

I think she's confused because in her head she may be starting to see that it probably makes sense for her to try with me, but her heart is not in it.

At the end, she thanked me for being a friend. She thanked me for my "candor and wisdom". I told her I don't know if I'm wise, I'm just trying to make it through. We talked about how I should get her mail to her. I had forgotten to bring it. I gave her many options, but in the end she agreed that it would be okay for me to bring it to her tomorrow. She's staying at her cousin's house while the cousin is on vacation. She has not stayed one night in her rental.

As we agreed that I'd bring her the mail tomorrow evening, she stood up. I was still in my chair, looking up at her. She must have seen something familiar and pleasant, because out of nowhere a huge smile came across her face.

We walked to her car, hugged, and off we went.

I'm emotionally wiped out. Completely. I feel sad that her emotions aren't there. Early on, she said even if she doesn't wind up with OM, it is unlikely that she'll want to get together with me. But she seems to have been overwhelmed by much of what we talked about.

When I see her tomorrow, I'm tempted to ask if there's any way for us to get together on some kind of regular basis. That it doesn't have to be for serious talk. I suppose I should let her think of that though. With her urging, I layed quite a bit on her tonight. There were times when I had little choice but to say some things that might be interpreted as trying to convince her to come back. Maybe an overt gesture towards seeing her more would cause her to skitter away again.

Thank you, thank you, for reading this far.

GC

graycloud,

I like the feel of this meeting, and I think you're right that she has alot to think about. Rather than approaching her about seeing each other regularly...why not just think of something fun to go do together with R talks off limits? I think you did well chere. I truly do. ((((((((gc)))))))))))))))

GC,

That's a job well done mister.

You did everything right and I commend you.As I read the post,I became very aware of how much I could NOT do what you did any longer.There's a part of me that knows there is no going back.That the man I used to know is gone,gone,gone.I cannot even conceive of being near my WH anymore or even being intimate after him being with the homewrecker while married.Boy,it really struck a cord with me.

I think I'm in run mode.My WH has become the persona non grata in my life now and I need to get as far away as I can.

You on the other hand were calm and open with your WW.If there is a chance for her to see you as someone she can have a happy life with,you gave her all the right clues but she does still sound like the alien.Please don't fall into a false sense of security and open yourself up to more pain.Be careful and don't be so eager to be so much to her.Remember,she is still involved with the OM.That has not changed.

O

Gray

Posted on your other thread, waiting for an update.

You did so well. Of course, we knew you would. Not an LB in sight! I thought this meeting was only going to be about money? Sounds like that only took about 15 minutes!

Good for you for stalling on the D question. She is in withdrawa***** cannot be expected to make rational decisions or requests.

I'm glad the A talk went well, too. You made a connection that she will definitely remember, Gray. My WH was shocked when I told him about the WS stuff I had learned at the start of Plan A (see my thread for his craziness) but he is foggified, so doesn't want to change a thing. He looked me in the eye and saw I really understood, and that has stuck with him. It was a turning point, and opened him up.

I wouldn't ask anything of her right now. No meetings or anything. Keep up the good Plan A and see what happens. Withdrawal takes at least 2 weeks or so? You can do it!

Thanks for the hug star*fish.

There are lots of things I wish I could have said. The big one is, don't you think you will have a better chance of happiness with somebody you loved enough to marry once, and who knows what he did wrong in the M and is busting his *ss to overcome?

I forgot - I told her about H4F a little bit, though I didn't bring up MB. I referred to H4F as a friend who was in an A under circumstances similar to hers, and wound up returning to the M after being separated a year. She was very curious about that.

Guess I will lay off tomorrow. I'd love to suggest getting together, even once. Otherwise, I'll just have to sit and stew and wait until I hear from her again.

Our anniversary is next Thursday.

Does anybody see an opportunity in the near future for me to make some gesture to try to meet an EN? I want to, so much.

Oh - the sparrow looked beautiful today, though I didn't tell her that. She wore a sundress and was really fixed up. She was a complete knockout. I think it was a small screwup that I didn't say anything. I'm being careful about glomming on to her too hard. I hope it wasn't a test she was giving me.

Maybe tomorrow if she's nice I'll tell her.

GC

Gray-

Great job. I knew you would do well. Sounds like she is still in the fog, but interested. So that is good. Let her think about it a little.

When you take her mail to her, just ask her if she would like to get something to eat.

She is still quite foggified. She said she that she thinks she's in love with OM. Everything else she said about him was about him being screwed up and about her not knowing if she could trust him. She expressed annoyance with him. Once, she said, "He doesn't know his a***ole from his armpit." Once when I told her things OMW has relayed to me (which I kept to a minimum despite her urging), things he's told her, she rolled her eyes and made a dismissive sound. She said that her R with him has a shaky foundation. Her brain knows it's no good, but her heart still wants it.

GC

Gray,
You did a great job! It sounds like you didn't go over the limit emotionally, I agree she's still doing the fog talk thing, but at least there are signs of clearing. I think there is hope.

I understand what you mean about "not trying to convince her". That's one of my biggest problems, infact it's a problem I've dealt with all my life. I think of things logically for the most part and I tend to lay down facts for my arguements and stress my opinions. I think you did much better than I would have done, or have been doing, I can't resist the urge to judge and give my advice.

Good job once again.

<small>[ July 19, 2004, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

Could somebody go to the sparrow's office and grab her and say "Sparrow, wake up! Go back to Gray! You will feel passion! You will have romance! He will respect you! He will admire you! He will give himself to you more than ever! He will not neglect you! You must! You must!"

Volunteers? We live in Minneapolis. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

GC

Hee hee...don't tempt me. I have a full tank of gas! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thing is, it wouldn't do any good. It's a process - annoying as it is to keep hearing that...it is what it is. If someone scared her in to coming back - she probably wouldn't stay. But if left to her own devices - she and OM will burn away the fog and reality will shine through.

I think your talk went better than I would have imagined. She's left with the image of you moving forward and learning all sorts of interesting skills that will make you a better partner for marriage - and she's beginning to see the OM in a more realistic light. Of COURSE she can't trust him. Wait til she finds out he's trying to dump her!

You didn't say - did you tell her about the dog? I'm just curious.

Oh - and if she ever expresses more than just casual interest in knowing more about my story - feel free to have her email me. I'm not sure how much fog I could bust through - but you never know.

Thanks, H4F. I considered asking her if she'd like to ask you anything. If she brings any of our conversation up, I'll ask her if she'd like for you to email her. She's very interested in figuring things out and making the right choices right now.

I didn't tell her about the dog. This talk was mostly about her.

The dog breeder lives about a mile from where the sparrow is staying this week, and I'm supposed to go up there for a visit. I could make an appointment to see the puppy this evening and invite her to come with me when I drop off the mail. So tempting.

GC

greycloud

You are absolutely on the right path. You handled the meeting in sterling fashion.

Here's a couple of suggestions, and a compliment. The compliment first. The way you "displaced" the pain you have endured through the OM's W, was brilliant. The pain we BS's endure is surreal, but to remove it to a very involved third party (or is it 4th party?), took the "edge" off a very confrontational topic. Well done!

Now the suggestions. You told her about owning up to your responsibility for the "way" things were in the marriage, pre-affair. I did not see that you formally "apologized" for those actions. This is something you should work in to the conversation the next time you have "R" talk.

Regarding meeting her EN's. You are doing more of that than you give yourself credit for, in remaining calm and collected in your conversations with her. Likewise, you are meeting her EN's by stating that you believe in a future with her.

Your assessment that pushing too hard, too fast, is dangerous, is right on the mark. Her emotional state right now is much like a festering boil, hypersensitive to any contact. This is a real tricky time in trying to make a transition from "discovery" and dealing with an affair, to beginning to "recover" from all that was wrong with a marriage, up to and including the affair.

Your Giver will have to stay in high gear for a while longer, at least through withdrawal. And this is not a time to expect ANY of your EN's to be met. Sparrow's personality may fluctuate wildly now, from "wanting to try" to "giving up completely.

Handle her with kid gloves for now, and reinforce everything that is good. Absolutely no Love Busters, and absolutely nothing bad should be said of the OM.

At your next meeting you should mention how stunning she was when you saw her last, and how great she looks today. Never was a woman created that doesn't like to be told she looks fabulous!

Although the fog will remain in place through withdrawal, I would not miss the opportunity to send her flowers, or something special for your anniversary, maybe even dinner if it's mutually agreeable, with an absolute minimum of "R" talk. During this time, it's best to regulate the "R" talk, and concentrate on having time together that is non-threatening, doing something you cherished as time together before the A, and something to remind you both, how happy you have been.

After a time, when you are more comfortable being together, you can "schedule" or agree on a time or two during a given week when you might have some talk about the A and where things are going. But to push to hard, will make her very defensive.

Time and Patience are your greatest allies right now. Although you are exhausted, and I know you are, you have to stay on task. You have worked hard to reach this "moment", and now is the time for you to "finish" what you have started. With Care!

Best wishes

SD

thanks for the update Gray and the first thing i want to say is GOOD JOB!!!! keep it up, you have a real grasp on the concepts which is excellent at this point in the game.

however, i do want to offer a few words of caution because like i have said before, i believe in being prepared and i want you to be the best prepared you can be.

allow yourself to be able to see the interaction as positive and that's good but sometime in order to save yourself grief you have to play devil's advocate. when i say that, consider that all of what she said as a information gathering of her own. her own attempt to figure out what you are up to and what you plan to do, etc. we BS don't want to be unguarded or have all our cards on the table, you are very wise in choosing not to say a whole lot about things, i would be even more cautious now. maybe her smile was just a smile that you didn't overwhelm her w/guilt and that she got out of the interaction virtually unscathed.

i would be cautious about telling her just how much you are talking w/other people or another person because this may come back to bite you in that she resents you for talking to others about it, then she will want to know more about the person you talked to, and then will come MB and possibly you telling everybody here the story and about her, tampons and all. there are pros and cons to the situation when children are not involved (between BS and WS) and we BS have to operate on the fact that we don't have children and so our strategy is a little different. IMO the better time to really introduce MB and other things to your W is in the recovery and/or withdrawal period, when she has actually made some attempt to return to the M, which she hasn't yet.

you can still practice MB concepts and "talk" about things w/sparrow about what you have learned but still be cautious. you're right about leaving her w/a lot to think about and not pushing things or overwhelming her right now w/a lot of contact. next time you see her i wouldn't bring up what was said or any kind of R talk, etc. i would just say that it was good seeing her and that she does look good and you'll talk to her later. i think somehow a segway w/the dog stuff is a good idea but can be used a little later, even if it's later in the week. you kind of want to spread things out.

you left the interaction as an attractive person in her eyes and that is always good. remember that this is a process and is going to take time, even if she came back tomorrow, it will take a long time to truly be back on track or on a track that is better than it was before. it's a chipping away process for the WS, selling them on the idea that you can be happy together again and that the feelings can come back. save your energy for this long and rough road. you have take great strides so far but just keep practicing and follow your words w/actions and watch the WS that they do the same because often they don't. we can't control or educate them during this time. you said yourself that she doesn't really think she can come back or want to even if it doesn't work out w/the OM.

again, you did wonderfully, we are all proud of you! but this is a race, a marathon not a sprint, and we've got to save our energy to finish the race. you can do it! prayers to you, RR

Thanks, SD. Talking about OMW was an improvisation. The sparrow complained about OMW having her friend serve OM, not knowing that she couldn't legally do it herself. I said, try to understand that she has been in deep, deep emotional pain. Sometimes the despair she's felt has been terrifying. When you're in such a state, you reach out for everybody you can, and her friends are very, very important to her. It's no surprise she would have a friend there to support her in doing something so painful, something she wishes with every fiber she was not forced to do.

The sparrow complained about OMW not getting a job, saying that lots of pregnant women work. I said those women aren't suffering from depression that is almost debilitating. She's in incredible pain, she's trying her best to hide it from her daughter who she's with all day, every day. She's trying to protect her child from being caught in the middle of things between her and OM. She's doing all these things while suffering from a sadness that is simply staggering. To start a new life and be motivated to find work because the need to do it has been thrust upon her in this way is simply beyond her capacity. You'd have to be a robot to do such a thing.

Something like that, anyway. She was about knocked over by this. She said she was starting to realize what she has done, and was overwhelmed by the knowledge of it.

GC

<small>[ July 19, 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

Sparrow just emailed to tell me she will not be available for me to give me her mail tonight. She wants me to either bring it by or leave it for her to pick up at the house tomorrow, when she knows I won't be there. She did say "We need to schedule a follow-up conversation as well."

Boy, I was looking forward to seeing her tonight. I have some options here. Should I deliver the mail, should I leave it for her, or should I skip band practice and be there when she comes to get it tomorrow? I probably shouldn't force this meet-up to happen, but I'm so disappointed.

And is it okay for me to tell her in an email that she looked great yesterday?

Too emotional to make decisions. I can face her in person, but I can't handle doing it in email. She has her businessy voice again. Maybe partly because she's at work. Damn it.

GC

Simple answer: Send back your response with: Ok.

Nothing more.

What will this do? Well she expected you to do something for her. You didn't commit to it.

See where that sends her spinning A head. More fog will spew out but at least you will get more info.

She is trying to manipulate you. Do you see it? Can you feel it? Then you have to determine how you will react.

WS' are very very sensative when a BS does not commit to what they want. It sends them on a tailspin. Make sure you are in the flight path.

take care.
L

maybe don't even reply to her email until tomorrow. and orchid is right on about everything. the same things i would have said.because you won't be seeing her tonight i think the opportunity for telling her she looked great is gone this time. no sweat though, just save it for another time.

i know you are disappointed but at least she told you she wouldn't be there versus leaving you hanging and not show up.

stay the course, you can do it!

Orchid, to respond "okay" seems like an LB. And I have to do something. I have to either stick the mail in her cousin's mailbox, leave it at the house for her tomorrow and go to rehearsal, or do nothing and p*ss her off.

I do feel she is trying to manipulate me, absolutely. Like she's trying to test me, to see how I'll react. I don't understand what the test is. I am plan-Aing like mad, but I don't think this means being her puppy and bringing the mail when she isn't even there. Thing is, I agreed to bring it. Now she's created the condition that I bring it without seeing her.

O, I'm an idiot right now. Sorry.

GC

I don't get it. How does backing out of a committment to doing something she asked for yesterday, that I agreed to do, a good thing? How is it going to affect the way she views me?

Something sudden may have come up. OM may have said he wants to see her, who knows? I also see that she is playing with me, but I can't say "don't play with me".

I'm on my heels with this one. I was feeling okay about yesterday, but now I feel lost. And it shouldn't be this big of a deal!

GC

i know exactly how you feel. if you were to go back and read some of my posts, i say often that i know this may not be a big deal to some people but....the thing is when it's you it is a big deal.

i guess i'm not sure what else to advise. you're right about telling her don't play w/me. i guess just kind of treat it as a negotiation. you say things or approach things like "it would help me if... or i would really appreciate it if..." in the end you just have to keep plugging along and do the best you can. you're probably right about something came up w/OM but there's nothing you can do about it and you don't know for sure.

keep busy until it's time for bed and if you can't sleep just take some benadryl, go to bed, and start tomorrow fresh. do what you can, when you can, for as long as you can. i gotta go for the day, prayers to you, RR