Today in therapy, after I described Sunday's meeting, my IC reminded me that I must be careful about becoming a counselor to the sparrow. I agree. It makes me an outsider in a way, and I need to be more of a competitor than a referee.

I think it's gotten me in a jam. The sparrow said on Sunday, when complaining about the recent state of our M, "I thought I didn't even like sex." She was basically telling me she's having a wonderful time having sex with OM, and I didn't respond. And remember how dolled up I said she was? Expression of her sexuality, I'd say.

I feel I need to add something new to my plan A - getting the sparrow to think of me as somebody she might want to sleep with, not just a man she can count on for wisdom and compassion.

I will probably see the sparrow again in the next week, and I'm thinking about starting to worry less about kindness and avoiding LBs and more about treating the encounter almost as a date.

Advice? Just the fact that I'm thinking of her that way will be a big factor.

Am I on the right track here even?

GC

<small>[ July 21, 2004, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

If you two didn't talk as friends before this new dynamic might be a good thing.

At least you are talking.

Do you think this was an En for her?

In time you want her to see you as an eligible man. But maybe not just quite yet?

Shul

We have talked as friends. We used to all the time, of course. The last meeting was all R talk. Next time I want to make it a little lighter.

Being treated as a desirable woman is definitely a big EN for her, and one that I slacked off on in the months before she started the A.

Yeah Shul, it may be early for this. I'm just judging from her appearance and that one thing she said at the last meeting. She's probably not ready for this right now, but I can still approach the meeting that way and follow my instincts.

Hey, where do they have beaches in Canada? Just kidding. I'm punchy and sleepy.

GC

graycloud,

You shouldn't worry about becoming her therapist <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> or potential lover <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... I am worry about you as a personal trainer for "cookie monster". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

-rh-

<small>[ July 21, 2004, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

GC - I'm not sure what your IC meant, but I think you're splitting hairs.

You need to attempt to be everything your wife needs you to be. Needs are needs.

Once recovery really starts, and you both get into counseling together, perhaps personal growth issues for her can be addressed separately.

Disclaimer - I am not a therapist. But half of the real therapists out there are below average.

WAT

Hmmmm. I don't know. But I wouldn't worry about it. As long as OM is in the picture, the sparrow will not look at you as a potential lover. She is addicted, and her brain chemicals are whacked out.

It is just like worrying about how to treat a heroin addict. As long as they are using, they are going to behave the same way.

Your job is to make it safe for sparrow to come back to the marriage when she has no contact with OM.

i would agree w/believer, that as long as they are in the A (even if it's more an EA right now) then they "see" things through the fog.

the bigger picture of plan A IS making yourself a more attractive person and one that is worth returning to. as all your attractive points really start to hit home then she will probably want to be w/you that way. she may already want to but unfortunately could think that this would be considered "cheating" on the OM, sick i know but that's how the WS think. this has entered my mind LOTS of times that if my H were even to at least think about being w/me he's stopping himself because now he doesn't want to hurt the OW or betray her, again sick I know.

that's why we just have to keep plan A'ing w/each encoutnter or interaction no matter how far and few between they are. even we find ourselves in a place where an LB has occured we just pick ourselves up and start fresh the next time or if we think of things to do the next time we just tuck them away and "practice" like having a list in your mind what you want to accomplish. that's what has helped me in rehearsing the things i discuss w/SH and even flipping the pages in my notes in my mind when i'm talking w/my H in finding what i should say given this or that.

i'll step in again and say that it's a marathon and not a sprint and you want to be able to finish in whatever time table you are giving yourself. no athlete starts a race w/the thought that they may not finish. that's not to say that half way through or near the end they don't think about giving up and when and if they do that's when they pull back and save some energy to get them through the next leg of the race. always try to come from every interaction as having painted a good and an attractive picture of yourself in your W's eyes.

i have had a lot more thoughts about the lover part myself lately, since i do feel more attractive now, especially since i've lost 47lbs. but it's a chipping away process, it's always a PROCESS and we just have to continually re-inforce the MB concepts in our mind and see them through in whatever contact we have w/our S. because we are trying to motivate them to do something they have no desire to do and that is to even entertain the idea that they can be happy w/us and that they can get the in love feelings back, that it IS POSSIBLE if you work together. think of it as a marketing ploy if that helps and keeping coming here and asking because that will reinforce things in your own mind yourself which will in turn help others.

you are doing a super job, again remember that you can't really help/educate/or even control your WS right now and they certainly cannot meet any of your needs right now so don't expect it at all. prepare for the worst, hope for the best, and as always pray to God for guidance, continued prayers to you, RR

Thanks for the mantra, RR. I'm going to add some focus to this side of things regardless. Like WAT says, needs are needs.

My IC was just pointing out that the sparrow seemed she was being oddly casual about discussing her feelings for OM with me, almost asking me for advice about how to conduct her A. The IC just wanted me to make sure I present myself as the sparrow's partner and not just as a wise advisor/father figure.

GC

So far it seems to me that your W trusts you and feels safe with you - so much so that she uses you to bounce her thoughts off of. She's open and honest with you. That's somewhat rare in these situations.

I know it's not pleasant for you in the least - but neither would her lying and doing things behind your back.

Her comment about sex is VERY TYPICAL. I had never felt hot and passionate before...so of course I attributed that to some sort of magical chemistry between OM and I. Well - as time went on I came to realize it was just ME maturing and entering a new phase in my life. I have that passion with my H - and I know I could have it with someone else. It's not some special chemical connection - it's more of a mindset.

Ooops...just got in trouble for saying I could be passionate with someone else!! Darn hubby over the shoulder. I'm not saying I WOULD be passionate with anyone else - just that I know it's not some special chemical makeup of two people that 'makes' passion.

I wouldn't doubt that a large reason she's hesitant to think about coming back to the marriage is she probably believes that the two of you can't have passion. As good as things were - she's seeing you as a friend. THIS IS ANOTHER REASON WHY PLAN B WORKS. Because if she continues to try to lean on you as a friend - she's not going to see you as a lover, and not going to miss that friendship and realize that it's a MUCH more permanant bond than passion!!!

Dang double post...


But I'll use it to say one more thing. I think your talk was GREAT, Gray. Yes, it's true you don't want to become Sparrows confidante or counselor. But this was an opportunity to share with her all that you've learned, and possibly open her eyes to both you and the OMW's pain, and the COMMONALITY of all of this. You planted seeds. I think that's a VERY good thing.

<small>[ July 21, 2004, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: hope4future ]</small>

Something to watch out for...seen this happen many a time and BS's have been warned against it.

Don't try to educate the WS while they are fogbound. In your case it seemed like the sparrow was receptive, a little break in the fog. You seem to have a good intuition about what is needed at the right time.

What your IC may be warning you about is not past mistakes...you seem to be handling yourself well, but of future ones.

Stick to your intuitions, you seem to know what is right to do in situations.

It's OK to lay down a few boundaries though...like "Please don't talk about OM with me, it hurts to hear his name." and "Whatever happens we will never be the type of friends you can confide your sexual trysts with." and "I still want this M to work and cannot help you build an R with anyone else, what can we do to help OUR R?"

I agree, no R talk next time (unless she brings it up) and no trying to educate her (unless she asks). You have been teetering between Plan A and Plan B, not really able to do a full blown Plan A, and trying to do a Plan B. Is it time to give one or the other your full attention?

IMHO, I would Plan A really hard for about a week or two, and then switch to Plan B. Visit her, call her, lavish her with attention and loving affection all the while telling her you want to work on your M, you don't want to remain distant and act like you don't care any longer. Then when Plan B comes, tell her you still love her and would love to give her all the attention she deserves but it hurts and so you have to stay away to preserve what love you have for you until she decides she wants to recommit (or not).

What EN's have you been able to fulfill?

I just remembered something kind of important. The other day when the sparrow was talking about feeling sexual passion, and said "I thought I just didn't like sex," she also said, "I thought it was good enough to be friends."

This is why I think I need to present myself as more than a friend, and do it before it's time for plan B.

GC

A personal note: there's nothing more annoying than a friend who unilaterally starts acting like a date. When I want to be "friends" with a guy, and he starts treating it like some sort of tryst, and evaluating me in terms of a date, it's a real turn off. Be careful.

Affairs burn hot. Usually, long-term relationships do not, at least sexually. If she stays with OM, eventually she'll be having headaches with him, too.

A personal note: there's nothing more annoying than a friend who unilaterally starts acting like a date. When I want to be "friends" with a guy, and he starts treating it like some sort of tryst, and evaluating me in terms of a date, it's a real turn off. Be careful.

Affairs burn hot. Usually, long-term relationships do not, at least sexually. If she stays with OM, eventually she'll be having headaches with him, too.

If I was a woman, and I was planning to try to be lighthearted and sexy for a meeting with my WH, would that be considered a good plan?

GC

don't know and couldn't tell you because the WS don't think clearly and who know's what'g going on in her mind. she probably doesn't want to let you see her cards, whether they be the cards of guilt, hope, or plain evil is also a guess. that's what it is, a guess because the aliens have their minds and other things when they are in this fog. so if you ask "me" that question i would have a dozen or more so to ask you about what my H is thinking or planning.

bottom line-your question can't really be answered, only guessed at and probably one that involves the manipulation of you, however unconscious the act may be. detach and don't hold onto the things she says and does. remember you go to save your energy for this race, stay the course. prayers to you.

Some things a guy can do to turn a friendship around into dating without coming on strong like A.M. has warned against is to fulfill those EN's, big time!!!

What are her top needs?

Admiration? Compliment, compliment, compliment, but do it genuinely...not, you look nice tonight (never use 'nice' or 'special') try, "I like that dress on you, it really shows off your shoulders. Have I ever told you I really love your shoulders?"

Conversation? Yep, big need of mine, it should be more like...listening...I want to be listened to. Make eye contact, face her direction, don't get distracted or look away, even for an instant. Give minimal prompts (little, uh-huh, yeah, mmmm's) let her know you are still engaged.

What else?

Make yourself so fulfilling of her EN's you are irresistable, can't live without, and that love she has forgotten, will come back...

Are you suggesting some cross dressing???!!! LOL!

Gray, as long as she has you in her life as her 'friend' - she isn't going to feel that sense of loss of not having you in her life. She won't come to understand how powerful your friendship is. You will NOT be seen as her lover at this time. Yes - it's possible if she starts to pull out of the fog and fantasy of the A that you might be able to start turning her eye your way. But not at this point in time. This isn't a competition between you and the OM - he cannot provide for her what you can, and what he does provide is shallow and will fade.

Heh. The other day, during long silences, I would look deep into her eyes, and after a while she'd sort of blink and laugh nervously.

I get the picture. I'll look my best, and I'll view her as my wife and somebody I desire, but I won't pursue her that way. I'll stick to subtle body language, nothing that will make her uncomfortable. And all the while I'll also be her friend.

Actually, I don't even know when I'll see her. We haven't agreed on that yet. I suggested Friday and the dispute about dental expenses got in the way.

GC