Hi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> justpeachy recommended I come here to seek advice.

If you'd like more details of my situation I'd be happy to oblige.

My husband and I are currently separated (for about six weeks now) and living quite far apart. He has expressed willingness to work on the marriage, but is not committed to making it work.

Plan A needs to be implemented in regards to his dating other people. This is initially something I had agreed to but have come to learn how horrible this could be for the outcome of our M. He is not willing at this time to not date others.

We have frequent contact via phone, email and IM's, though in starting a 180 plan for my own well-being, I no longer initiate IM's to him and and have made myself "invisible" to him. He will be coming to visit me in two weeks for a week's stay. We are comfortable talking over the phone, is usually very friendly. When I bring up R problems (which I'm fighting not to do right now, but it's hard!) he is not negative but intuition tells me that he hates those talks! If we don't have R talks, we BOTH enjoy the conversations. I only say that to give the general climate of our communications.

Any advice on how I should implement this?

PS Am also concerned with Plan A in regards to EN questionaire and LB questionaire. Should I wait to ask him to fill these out until he has comitted to working on our marriage? Or should I ask him to fill them out so I know what I avoid and fill the needs that I feel like I can fill right now? I want to for SURE avoid LB's right now..but know we need to avoid working on our marriage during Plan A. Just wondering where EN's and LB's fall into that.

<small>[ July 24, 2004, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: maddyk ]</small>

Hi Maddy,

JP is a great gal who has been through a lot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am quite proud of her personal recovery.

I read your post and wondered if you could supply a bit more info.

1. When was d/d
2. A still running?
3. children involved?
4. are you working with an IC or MC?
5. what books or info from here have you read?
6. what does it mean when you write: "plan A needs to be implemented in regards to dating other people"?

7. What is your understanding of plan A vs plan B?

Thanks,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. When was d/d</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure of the exact D-Day. Sorry, it was a very stressful time in my life even with the A! But it was in March of 2003. Maybe about mid-month.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2. A still running?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actively? At the moment I'm not sure. I know that from when I found out to the time I left there was not face-to-face contact, but there was email contact, possibly phone. Email that I saw, without him knowing I was going to see it, indicated nothing more than friends. Since I left I can't say for sure. I do not believe there's any face-to-face (they live about as far apart as they possibly could). I DO think that he probably left the door open though. It's possible that phone/email has moved from friends to seeing if that relationship is something he wishes to pursue now. I have no idea either way, just that I know it's possible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3. children involved?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a 16 year-old son from my first marriage who is living with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">4. are you working with an IC or MC?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I began seeing an IC yesterday (7-24). No MC. I asked before I left if that was something he wanted to try and he said that he did not see any way it could help. I do not believe he would agree to it right now but that if he committed to trying to work on our marriage he might.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">5. what books or info from here have you read?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read most of this site though I keep finding things I missed. I've filled out EN, LB, and personal history on my own. I've read His Needs/Her Needs and finished Surviving an Affair last night. For other books, I've read "Too Good to Leave/Too Bad to Stay" by Mira Kirshenbaum, "Should I Stay or Go" by Lee Raffel and I just ordered Divorce Busting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">6. what does it mean when you write: "plan A needs to be implemented in regards to dating other people"?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that I need to be (and I am) concerned with the contact with his former A, but it would not be practical for them to have an affair so it's not my biggest concern AT THE MOMENT. When we separated, we both agreed that we would date other people. I thought at the time that this was a good idea. After reading through this site I've decided that this is the worst thing we could possibly do right now. I have informed him that I am not going to date other people during our separation. I explained my reasons for changing my mind and expressed that I do not wish him to date either. He stated that for the time-being he is not willing to give up dating other people, and in fact, does not truly wish to discuss that part of his life with me. He said that he understands where I'm coming from but his desire for the separation is to see if he even wants to be in a marital situation--that it's the lifestyle of marriage he's not sure about and dating others has nothing to do with that. I can no longer discuss this with him because I can see myself trying to persuade him to my point of view (disrespectful judgement?). He knows how I feel so I decided to agreeing to leave this issue on the back-burner for now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">7. What is your understanding of plan A vs plan B?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to try to word this without regards to my own situation, but will add my comments after. Plan A is designed primarily to stop the affair. The WS must end ALL contact with OP. This is done in a way that is satifactory to the BS (such as a letter that BS approves and witnesses being mailed). The A should be exposed to the ones that can help stop it. Moving, changing jobs and anything that will help stop the affair and maintain NC is advised. The BS' job during this is to stop all Love Busting (except the calculated LB of total honestly such as checking email accounts, asking for affirmation of NC, checking phone records, etc). LB'ing right now would include working on problems within the marriage. The BS' wants to avoid making any withdrawals from the WS' Love Bank. They should attempt to fill the WS' ENs, but not expect the WS to be receptive of that effort during this time. Overall, Plan A is designed not only to break up the affair, but to create an environment that the WS wishes to return to. A plan should be made to restore the marriage. The BS wants to provide an excellent alternative to the benefits the WS was finding in the affair. Plan A should be given time, but it should be a limited time period. A good Plan A will either avoid plan B, or should plan B be necessary, the WS' last thoughts of the BS will be good ones and not include LB's.

Plan B. Sometimes the WS cannot/will not stop contact with the OP. During Plan A, the BS has been trying to fill the WS' Love Bank and avoiding making withdrawals. But during this time, the WS has been making massive withdrawals from the BS' Love Bank. Plan B is designed to stop any further withdrawals from the BS' Love Bank. It is there to preserve whatever love the BS still has for the WS. BS should request and enforce NO CONTACT with the WS until the WS has agreed to stick to NC with the OP. In order for the WS to return to the BS, the WS should have a solid plan for NC and have the willingness and abiity to enforce that plan.

Recovery of the marriage cannot begin until the affair is over and NC maintained.

Okay, in regards to my situation. My husband right now is not willing to stop dating other people. If he has pursued his previous A then he would consider this "dating other people" (this is not something that he said, this is something I am presuming). So how do I do a Plan A if he's not willing to stop the dating? And a Plan B right now isn't ideal either because there has been no chance to create an attractive alternative to dating. And what of LB's and EN's? I don't know what his are, so how can I avoid them and fill them?

Lastly there's distance. I understand that our chances of success are less because of this. We had planned on visiting each other every other month, and possibly holidays. This is something that could probably be increased should my husband commit to saving the marriage, but that's where it stands right now. Most of my plan A will have to be done via telephone.

Thanks for responding, Orchid!

Dear Maddy,

Thanks for giving us your insight and update. I would like to touch on a few items from your last post:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Maddy: know that I need to be (and I am) concerned with the contact with his former A, but it would not be practical for them to have an affair so it's not my biggest concern AT THE MOMENT. When we separated, we both agreed that we would date other people. I thought at the time that this was a good idea. After reading through this site I've decided that this is the worst thing we could possibly do right now. I have informed him that I am not going to date other people during our separation. I explained my reasons for changing my mind and expressed that I do not wish him to date either. He stated that for the time-being he is not willing to give up dating other people, and in fact, does not truly wish to discuss that part of his life with me. He said that he understands where I'm coming from but his desire for the separation is to see if he even wants to be in a marital situation--that it's the lifestyle of marriage he's not sure about and dating others has nothing to do with that. I can no longer discuss this with him because I can see myself trying to persuade him to my point of view (disrespectful judgement?). He knows how I feel so I decided to agreeing to leave this issue on the back-burner for now. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Separation with approval to date is not healthy. You see he is willing to hurt you by pursuing this dating lifestyle.

That being the given in your situation, why would you want to plan A him? What else in plan A do you need to do that will help you or show him your M is more attractive than the A?

Plan B is about protecting your love for him. There are no lessons for the WS to learn. WS' are not in the learning mode while in their A. What the WS need to see is that as long as their conduct is in the A, they will LOSE their family.

How close is your H with your child? While this maybe a factor, your R with your H is important to cultivate, NOT your R with the WS. Big difference but since your H's real life is entangled in this A, now you are dealing with somewhat of a split personality. This makes your interaction with your H harder.

I recommend you step back a bit. Get the book, Love Must be Tough by Dr. James Dobson. I know more reading, but this one is critical. Your H is being highly disrespectful and is probably convincing himself and others that it is YOUR idea for him to have the A with many people.

So what can you do?

1. Review your plan A check off list. If you have done the best you can, then go to step 2.

2. Review the steps for plan B. Learn what you can implement.

3. Secure your financial status. In the A, many a nice spouse turn into the most greedy WS in NY minute. Don't assume they will continue to be generous, fair and honest.

Mine said he would always take care of us. In reality we almost went bankrupt.

4. Secure your housing, health coverage, insurance, retirement, etc.

5. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. This is critical. Your WS' doesn't have either right now.

6. Be prepared for more mudslinging from the WS. Put up your MB shield.

7. See if you can schedule some phone counseling with Steve @ MB. He is great with the WSHs.
Let the phone counseling be with just you but if you want, keep him within earshot. It might be helpful. You can cry on the phone with Steve. MB will require you do some pre-work, do that while your WS is nearby.

8.WS needs to see you doing things but he doesn't have to know all the details. Don't share all. He isn't and it is hurtful. You don't share all unless he asks and when he does reply in a civil and kind manner. Don't try to teach. Just answer his questions. The more he asks the better. Leave your books lying around with bookmarkers or pages open to where you have been reading. If you want to share something with him, try leaving that page open. Don't be hurt if he doesn't.

9. Pray for and practice patience.

10. Love your child. Ask for his support. Children know.

11. Strengthen your personal support group. It can even be as simple as hugging your pet, starting a new project, talking with a good friend or relative, etc. Ask your support group to respect your decision, then let them know some info. You don't have to tell all to all.

There is more. Hope it helps. Remember, these plans both A and B are to help you. Your WS will learn by seeing not necessarily hearing what is helpful.

Don't expect overnight changes. He really isn't interested in his M. Right now he is too dumb to know that the grass isn't greener on the other side, it just is full of weeds.

The 'roundup' weed killer to kill the A, comes from a good plan A and B. He will need your help when he is ready. In the meantime, start reading, work with your M, get support, shore up your family's safety net, move forward and keep posting here to vent as needed.

take care,
L.

<small>[ July 25, 2004, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Separation with approval to date is not healthy. You see he is willing to hurt you by pursuing this dating lifestyle.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this now. Did not before. I feel that overall he is trying to make this the least painful for me, but he is not willing to give up dating at this time, whether it hurts me or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That being the given in your situation, why would you want to plan A him? What else in plan A do you need to do that will help you or show him your M is more attractive than the A?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I actually don't know if I should be plan A'ng or not, but I *do* want to save my marriage. We were very happy at one time. I feel that we can be that way again, and better than ever. He feels that we may not compatible any longer and that he needs to date to try and figure that out. I don't feel that he would welcome any MB info from me at this moment regarding compatibility and EN's and LB's, and I do not feel comfortable sharing it unless he expresses that he WANTS to try to save our marriage (not just willing to try). At the moment I'm doing everything that I can do to change the things in myself that I am unhappy with. From what he has TOLD me since we decided to separate, that has been his biggest unhappiness--my depression and unhappiness, and how I made him solely responsible for my happiness. Course, I wish I had known this a long time ago! There are things that I feel need to be changed in our marriage in order for me to be happy with the marriage, but he is not willing to provide some of these things right now and I can understand that. Anyway, bottom line--no, I have not YET shown him that M is more attractive than his current lifestyle. I'm tryin', but very little time has passed.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How close is your H with your child?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not close at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...your R with your H is important to cultivate, NOT your R with the WS. Big difference but since your H's real life is entangled in this A, now you are dealing with somewhat of a split personality. This makes your interaction with your H harder.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, hadn't really thought about R with H vs R with WS. I agree, it does make it harder!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...Your H is being highly disrespectful and is probably convincing himself and others that it is YOUR idea for him to have the A with many people.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Will do on the book, I love reading anyway and right now I'm hungry for information. I agree that he's being disrpectful, though at the moment--while he may be concerned with my feelings, it is not enough to make him want to stop. I do not wish to put words or thoughts in his head that he might not be thinking, but it is my PERCEPTION that he feels justified in dating, that he feels we're separated and this is what he ought to be doing to find out if our marriage is what he wants.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what can you do?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for this list of "thoughts" for me to consider. Some of them will be hard! H isn't the only one without a clear mind and calm heart! Patience is the hardest. I just want to scream, "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE?"..lol..but I haven't yet and don't think I will. It is so very difficult to be making such an effort and get so little feedback (especially since admiration is among my top 5 EN's). And strength too..it is hard to make myself get out and do things, but today I got a 'break-up" haircut and my first pair of low-rise jeans ever--so it's a start. (haircut came out HORRIBLE, btw)

hello maddy, i know you asked Orchid for advice but when i read a plan A long distance i thought that i would offer my 2 cents so i hope you don't mind. that's basically what i'm doing. the best thing i can do to explain what i'm doing, what i've been advised, and how my H has "reacted" is to direct you to my thread that is entitled "sessions w/SH and the plan." i will bump it up for you to read. it's long but i really really really think it will give you a good perspective. i have another session w/SH tomorrow so i need to find the thread for that anyway.

praying is really the best thing you can do for yourself, your H, and your M. start and end each day w/a prayer. good luck and God Bless, RR

rr, will check it out now. thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate advice from EVERYONE!! It's good to hear input from different sources because nothing is "one-size fits all" and yet we know none of is truly unique here. It's good to sort through things to see the way through.