Been reading MB about infidelity and was wondering if Dr. H and/or others have experienced situations where a person makes very bad choices in marriage due to emotional issues from childhood/early adulthood.

When talking about infidelity in MB and HNHN; there is a clear message that the reasons for EMA's are always shared. However surely there are those few whose EN's are extremely left or right of center and therefore when not met, lead to poor choices in marriage. Are there warning signs to this? Have any of you experienced something like this?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I believe everything we do is influenced by our childhood experiences. If this brings negativity to our lives, then we need to look at what we are doing and hopefully change our behavior.

Yeah, those of us that haven't worked out our childhood issues will probably repeat them in marriage. This is common, but it doesn't mean the M should be abandoned.

If both partners are willing to be patient, the M could be used to heal these childhood hurts.

There are some things that are not acceptable and I do believe there are warning signs that we choose not to see: abusiveness, alcholism, etc.

Is this what you are talking about?

Fish, I am not sure that MarriageBuilders suggests that ALL affairs occur because of unmet needs. It suggests that many are and the MB is designed to address such cases. In fact, Harley has stated that it's impossible to meet the needs of a practicing alcoholic, which is so true. He recommends against using the MB program until the drinking problem is handled.

lbc & Melody:

My point (and experience) is easy for me to comprehend; harder to explain so please bear with me. Note: It would help for you to read my post under “Emotional Needs” titled “EA has deeply affected my love.” It’s a bit long-winded; but will help to understand my question.

It really has to do with self-esteem. W thrives on affirmation as if it’s a drug. W simply cannot get enough and falls deeply if her perception from someone is negative. (High-highs & low-lows). MC helped for a while but recent events produced a tremendous back-slide, leading to EA. Note: It is important to know that W now realizes and agrees that I have been attentive and affirmative for several years; but is regretful that her “feelings” led her to fall in love with OM. The reality is very complex; but tracing the steps was easy.

My question is as follows: In Dr. Harley’s “infidelity” section of MB; the message is clearly that both spouses are responsible for an EMA, due to not meeting EN’s of each other, LB and so on. (With regards to alcoholism, physical abuse, etc.) at what point (or is there a “point”) does Dr. Harley consider that EMA choices made by a “damaged” spouse could/may not have been prevented by the BS under any circumstances. In order for me to have met W’s EN’s during this time in our lives; I would have had to affirm her several hours of each day & night, not have kids, no business/financial issues, bought a motorcycle, got a tattoo, bought another motorcycle, bought a new sports car and so on and so on. (Which is what OM did!) The expectation was unrealistic! However; there is no provision for this in Dr. Harley’s infidelity articles; (or at least none that I’ve found!)

I’ve been diligent in “looking in the mirror” at my actions; reading the scriptures, MB, HNHN and so on. Aside from spending more time with work than normal (which we discussed and understood would be the case for a while due to current issues); I am unsure what else I could have done! W now agrees; however her “feelings of love” for OM remain!

Does that clear up my question? I hope so because I’m exhausted!!! LOL. Thanks.

fish, I can't speak for Dr Harley, but it seems to me that your W's problems may not stem from conditions in the marriage, but from her own emotional adjustment problems.

In that case, it is unrealistic to believe that you can ever fully satisfy her needs. If I were her, I would get into counseling and find out why she has such a voracious need, if that's what it is.

I think I see what you mean. Your WS' background might have led her to seek an EA which had nothing to do with you. You might say I am battling the same thing. My FWS experienced abuse as a child. He does seem to need an inordinate amount of validating and affirmation. At least, it seems to me.

But this is a need that he has and I don't think I should discount it just because I don't have the same need. Maybe you're saying that if his self-esteem were higher, he wouldn't need this. But the thing is, I actually haven't met a whole lot of people with very high self-esteem. There's always gonna be something.

For instance, if my self-esteem were higher, I would probably ask for more responsibility at work. I've been an engineer for 20 years, but I'm not in management. I just don't have the ambition, but maybe that's my low self-esteem talking. Maybe I don't want to try, because I'm afraid of failing. Is this a flaw? Yes, but maybe I'm not ready to work on that, yet.

I will have to go back and read your other posts to see if you can be absolved from the issues in your M. I don't think anyone is that far gone that even if their partner were 'perfect', they'd still cheat. If that is so, there is still room for you to examine yourself. Why were you attracted to someone like that? Who in your past is like your WS?

Yeah, I feel like the only way to satisfy my FWS is to affirm him several hours a day, but that is my perspective. That is not his. He only needs me to talk about my love for him or show my love for him once and awhile. A hug, a kiss, a kind word, a conversation once and awhile would send his heart soaring. I needed to learn how to do those things. I thought the fact that I came home every night meant that I loved him. I thought that making a life together showed him that I loved him. I thought that having a baby with him is the ultimate affirmation of love. But no. That is not enough for him. Is that 'bad'? Maybe, but that is who he is. He has definitely been working on himself before, during, and after the A, but sometimes these issues may never be overcome.

So I try to remember to kiss him when I come home, to tell him that I love him when I call, to thank him for taking such good care of our daughter.

I will go back and read your other posts. Maybe I will have more comments.

Melody:

RE: In that case, it is unrealistic to believe that you can ever fully satisfy her needs. If I were her, I would get into counseling and find out why she has such a voracious need, if that's what it is.

I am not a counselor and can only offer the signs. I do not believe that anyone (including me) can satisfy her needs, particularly when a life-problem develops. She is generally against further counseling and in trying to keep things in perspective; I understand why. The “self-esteem” issue has never been considered as it’s always been MC with the 2 of us. Perhaps she would rethink this after reading some of the threads!

Lbc:

Please look at another post under this same topic entitled: PEP please....self-esteem issue. I just read it and the message is loud and clear. Let me know what you think. I will check my other post.

Thanks to you & Mel!

Fishracer,

I'll chime in here too and say that my WH needed affirmation and attention a lot as well.I think in part,because my MIL was not this way with him as a child.Now she is a wonderful woman and I love her dearly but she is not overly affectionate,doesn''t say I love you hardly at all and my WH grew up with a stern father,well respected doctor,pillar of community,etc and in many ways,always looked upon my WH as a disappoitment,like he was always on the verge of disaster or making poor decisions.

So,as he grew up,it was obvious to me that he needed a lot of attention by other women to fill the voids he had deep inside.I was very affectinate with him but the more time he spent away from home for work,the more he needed to get those EN's filled somewhere and he did with OW and having flirty relationships and an EA,which I didn't really know about until THIS A happened.

So,as much as I would like to beleive that there was something I could have done beforehand to prevent the A,my WH would have made the decison regardless.He didn't keep his heart guarded from other women and he spent a lot of time away from home and me.I was as loving as I could be,open and honest and met all of his needs according to the EN questionnaire except for ONE: affection.I rated a 2 according to WH.That's how he perceives the affection I gave him and it may be different than what I actually gave.But,it was not something that we couldn't have fixed easily had he came to me *first before getting that need outside our marriage and creating an unimaginable amount of pain for so many,especially me.

In other words,it is 100% the choice of the WS to make the decison to commit adultery.A person should LEAVE a marriage first if it's that bad before EVER making the decison to have an A.It is NEVER the answer to anything.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>