Thanks, ML.

I'm glad you're here tonight.

I'm feeling a little better now.

I'm so sorry, svb, I know how hard this is for you.

It's hard not to play the "what if" game.

I review again in my mind all that you posted about him, and what he said, and did.

I see no signs that he was anything but self serving, self absorbed, and self centered.

You correct me, but it looks like he was with you because it suited him, and when it no longer suited him, he planned to leave.

Now, when you read this, it will be hard to take emotionally, but bear with me.

I am struggeling with writing this - because I want you to understand that we can't always know these things about people - they can hide parts of themselves away, and it can be years finding out all about them. I hear your doubts, and I think I understand, but as has been said, your plan B letter is an invitation for him to come back and work on things, and he has not taken you up on it.

We feel your first priority is to protect yourself from further harm. I saw the range of emotions you went through early on. It was pure he$$ for you. It is not healthy, it is not necessarry. For recovery to take place, there needs to be two willing to work on it. You have always been willing. You know this is true. You are willing now, but we have seen NO SIGNS AT ALL that he is wiling. So, "what if" is a futile exercise until we see a sign that he has changed how he has treated you for many, many months.

We haven't even seen words that he wants to make this work, let alone actions.

Now, please don't try to second guess your decision. You were a long time gathering facts, going over all the information you had, and making this decision. Do you really think you were that far off, or do you think the doubts you have may be partly from all the times he tried to argue you out of the truth? You are used to him changing reality for you. Please don't let him do it even now, when he is away from you.

I think you can trust your feelings, and your judgement.

Remember, there are people that care about you. It's probably time to start casting out the fear, and trusting YOURSELF now. You are trustworthy - do you realize this? Do you believe it?

It is time to have more selfrespect. You are respectable - do you realize that? Do you believe it?

We need to love ourselves. You are lovable - I hope you know that, and I hope you show you belive it by being able to love yourself, even if he does not.

This will be difficult in more ways than one. There is a lot to think about. Growing doesn't always mean learning to accept things about others. It also means learning about ourselves. I believe you have a lot to learn about yourself. I believe what you will learn is that you are a far better, more capable, more lovable person than he wanted you to know.

Does this help?

SS

SS,

Have you been talking to my mother?

My mother says this exactly, "he was with you because it suited him, and when it no longer suited him, he planned to leave." She even tells me that she doesn't think that he ever really loved me.

So, I guess I could say that you are very correct. I can see it myself, though I don't really want to believe it. It's really difficult to believe that my H could do this to me. He was my first and only love. Now in the end, I realize that he never really loved me -or loved me liked I loved him. How can I trust anybody again?

I will be sticking to plan B. Though it was tough on Saturday, it really is getting easier as the days go by.

As for being trustworthy, respectable, and lovable, I know deep down that I am, but it's tough right now - I feel so rejected. But I am working on it.

I also have a question for you. I take my vows seriously. I don't really want to end my M, I want to make it better. I think that I've done everything that I can up until this point, but if my H is done, he is done. I know I can be released from my vows based on infidelity. But in my case, though the signs are there, I don't know for sure. I know, ultimately, that God knows the truth, but how do I let go and move on and be at peace? I guess it probably makes no sense in even asking this question.

<small>[ October 04, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

No, I haven't been talking to your mother, but if you will give me her nunmber, I'll call her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I bet with a little more information, the two of us could really gang up on you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kidding aside,
I realize this may very well be the most difficult thing you do in your life. I don't discount your feelings at all, but I want you to realize who you really are, and it's not the picture your H painted when you were cold.

SVB, are you a Christian? Do you believe in God, and can I use come Christian examples with you?

SS

Hi SS,
I am and please do. I edited my last post with a question for you, too.

BTW, trust me, if you call my mom, she will give you an EARFUL of information. She gets RILED UP pretty easily on this subject and will just go on and on. I don't know if you'd be up for that!

thanks

<small>[ October 04, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I guess it probably makes no sense in even asking this question.

Oh, SVB, I think I hear echo's of your H's influence in your life. This may take a while, but lets work on you believing in yourself. I have great faith in you.

I believe the question is a very good one for a person who has a conscience.

I know what I want to say, but It will take me a while to make it into words.

In the short term, please know that you are a daughter of God, and that he sent you here to succeed. If this is true, then he knows you, and loves you, and you should feel it as you read this.

God be with you.

SS

later edit:
I'll try to get back to you within a few days. Perhpas sooner, but sometimes it's hard to put the words down in the little bit of time I have.

<small>[ October 04, 2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I have another update. I got home from work today and found that my H left me another message on the answering machine!

He said that he forgot some pants. ?? He said that since I have class tonight it would probably be ok for him to come home. Then he ended the message with, "so, what's the name of your little fish?"

Well, I left for class and all I did was put a post-it note on the little aquarium saying, "Hi, my name is Lenny." (I named him Lenny after the vegetarian shark in Shark Tale.)

Needless to say, I had a pretty fierce workout tonight in my fitness and wellness class. It did me good.

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

It's good that you still have feelings for him. You realize it has to be that way for a while - right?

Sometimes with emergancies at work, I can't post much. Just had two pretty intense 15 hour days - I am not staying away on purpose.

Here is a thread that you may find interresting.

Boundaries

I read what you said about your mom, I suspect you two are a lot alike ???

SS

It's good that you still have feelings for him. You realize that it has to be that way for a while - right?

Actually, no. I don't understand this. What do you mean? As a matter of fact, I think I'm losing my feelings for him pretty quickly. It's pretty scary. I wasn't expecting this.

Sometimes with emergancies at work, I can't post much. Just had to pretty intense 15 hour days - I am not staying away on purpose.

That's OK ... sniff .. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ... sniff... I understand. No, really, I do. At least today is Friday. Hopefully you can relax this weekend.

I read the thread on boundaries. It is excellent. It really applies to my situation. I have also been reading the "who is afraid of plan B" thread with interest. I might post something on there.

I read what you said about your mom, I suspect you two are a lot alike ???

Hey! What are you trying to say here? That I give an earful of information and get riled up and go on and on and on? .... well, you'd be be right.

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I just posted this on the thread, "who is afraid of plan B?" I wanted to post this here, too, since this is sort of my plan B journal.

"I was afraid of plan B. I was mainly afraid that I would lose my H forever.

Now that I have been in plan B for almost three weeks, I am not really afraid of this anymore. I have come to realize that I can live without my H. Although I really missed him at first, I am doing things for myself and I am enjoying my freedom.

Currently, all I can do is remember the negatives of our M. At this point, I don’t know why I’ve been trying to save my M.

Here are the facts:
- My H came to this country on a student visa to finish his degree in the States. He never finished his degree, but we got married and he is now a US citizen.
- I have always been the main breadwinner and I NEVER cared how much he earned as long as he either worked or studied.
- I have always done most of the household duties – handling our finances, doing all of the shopping, and most of the cooking and cleaning.
- I went back to school (part-time while working full-time) and just got my MBA.

Despite all of this, according to him, I am “lazy,” I “lack common sense,” and best of all, I am “worthless as a human being.” (I swear he told me that once.) Nothing is ever good enough, clean enough, fast enough, etc. and I am always wrong. It IS clear to me that he is insecure, though he acts as if he is perfect, and tries to bring me down to make himself feel better. I don’t know if he consciously realizes this, though.

On top of this, I have to deal now with his lies, deceit, and new secret personal life. He tells his family that he is unhappy in his M and has been for a long time and longs to be “free,” but he doesn’t have the guts to tell me this to my face. He wants to “go back in time” and “start his life over” and be single again – going out to night clubs every weekend.

My H is about to be promoted to a position at work that will pay him at least what I make, if not more. I have always told him that I am proud of him. But now I find it very coincidental that, faced with his new opportunities, he wants to be free. He has been throwing me bones and keeping me hanging on until he finds out what is going on at work. Then he was going to tell me how he feels about our M and leave. But in the meantime, I am good enough to keep around so that he can continue to enjoy his current lifestyle. We took two nice trips this year. We’ve sent money to his family. He’s convinced me during this past year to use my bonus at work to pay off his car. He’s gotten $2000 worth of dental work done that our insurance wouldn’t cover - dental work that was not urgent. It could have waited a year or two. I am realizing now that he has been intentionally planning this all along. And he’s been sneaking around on the side. This was all during my plan A.

How could I have been so stupid all along? I am embarrassed to even be admitting all of this. Love really is blind. I feel used and stupid. Am I that horrible to deserve all of this?
So, to end this all, I have to say that, in my case, fear of plan B would have continued to subject me to the abuse.

At this point I am beginning to heal. I don’t know if I’ll ever heal fully, but I’m going to try."

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I have to keep going with my vent.

Despite everything, I will still feel guilty and like a failure if my M ends.

Marriages are all about commitment. They are supposed to last "through good times and bad times, in sickness and in health, until death do us part." My parents were married for 37 years before my father died last year. He suffered with Parkinson's disease for the last 25 years of his life. He stayed at home until his death. As tough as it was, my mother took care of him until the very end. She would not send him to a nursing home. To me, that is what commitment and M are all about.

How can I give up, even though my M, for all practical purposes, appears to be over? Why can't my H feel the same way about commitment and M?

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

Wow.....................

I was just getting ready to post a little bit relating to some of your earlier comments.

You have a whole bunch of anger - but you are just now finding out about it.

You kept it hidden so as to not rock the boat. Now that the boat appears to be SINKING, you find that he made lots of holes it it, and it makes you angry. You didn't even know the boat had a problem.

Please slow down - and quit blaming yourself.

I wish ML would come by, and talk to you. She is really good at this stuff.

For the short term, yes, keep thinking about all this.

BUT, NO, don't be blaming yourself. I will post a little bit more after this, and this is kind of what I wanted to cover right now anyway.

SS

svb, you don't have to give up anything right now. You are far from calling this marriage over. It may come to that, but you don't know what will happen.

I think you are seeing things now more clearly that you didn't see before and I am [and have]wondering how committed your H was to your marriage to begin with. Maybe I am reading him wrong, but it is surprising to me that he would so quickly toss this aside on a whim when he is through.

Sadly, you are taking this attitude personally, but it really speaks more about him than it does you. It tells me that he does not place a high value on others, much less on marriage. And you are a very valuable person who deserves to be valued.

Svb, I read your posts every day and think about you often. I think you are doing very well. I don't want you to think that I am not thinking about you if I don't post. I am more of an action-oriented person and have trouble just giving plain moral support. That is why I am so happy that stillseeking is posting to you. He is just fabulous in this department.

Please keep posting, svb, talking about it is so healing.

Just out of curiosity, what country is your H from?

Hi -
Sometimes they say that plan B brings clarity to your mind.

What do you say to that?

Ok, lets get down to work. And remember, I am one of the people that come here to give support, I am not an expert, and I don't pretend to be one. What you will get is my opinion, but at least the price is reasonable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's good that you still have feelings for him. You realize that it has to be that way for a while - right?

Actually, no. I don't understand this. What do you mean? As a matter of fact, I think I'm losing my feelings for him pretty quickly. It's pretty scary. I wasn't expecting this.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said this because of the general tone of your posts. Things like this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I left for class and all I did was put a post-it note on the little aquarium saying, "Hi, my name is Lenny." (I named him Lenny after the vegetarian shark in Shark Tale.)

Needless to say, I had a pretty fierce workout tonight in my fitness and wellness class. It did me good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, tell me, do you always leave notes around like that, for people you don't care about? What did you think about durning the workout for it to be fierce? Didn't it hurt? Doesn't it hurt?
Do you often hurt this much about people you don't care about?

I think you are angry now, and you are seeing things you didn't see before, but I think you won't give up on your love for him over night, perhaps never.

I see this as being a good thing. It means you are the kind of person you wanted him to be. It means you are ~ REAL ~ not fake like some people.

Do you understand what I am trying to say?
The bottom line with this is you won't feel good right away. You may know what to do, and your doubts may go away, but it will hurt for a while still.
Usually people are encouraged to hold off making life changing decisions while they have these feelings. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Marriages are all about commitment. They are supposed to last "through good times and bad times, in sickness and in health, until death do us part." My parents were married for 37 years before my father died last year. He suffered with Parkinson's disease for the last 25 years of his life. He stayed at home until his death. As tough as it was, my mother took care of him until the very end. She would not send him to a nursing home. To me, that is what commitment and M are all about.

So, my humble opinion is that becasue you have these feelings, because you are loyal, because you tried so hard to make this work, you are the same kind of person as your parents - as your mother. I was half teasing when I said you are a lot like your mother, and I thought you would pick up on that, but I wanted you to get this deeper part too - that you have your mothers commitment, and loyalty. Please understand that you are not the problem if your marriage fails. OK?


..................... Despite all of this, according to him, I am &#8220;lazy,&#8221; I &#8220;lack common sense,&#8221; and best of all, I am &#8220;worthless as a human being.&#8221; (I swear he told me that once.) Nothing is ever good enough, clean enough, fast enough, etc. and I am always wrong. It IS clear to me that he is insecure, though he acts as if he is perfect, and tries to bring me down to make himself feel better. I don&#8217;t know if he consciously realizes this, though.

I don't know if he does either, I do know it has had an effect on you, and believe it will take some time to un-do that also. A lot of this is background for what the things I want you to know and understand. Mostly that is..........that you are not the person he painted the ugly picture of.

If God is your father, as Jesus said he was, then you are a lot like your father, and indeed, you are created in his image. I would say, that unless you have been killing people, robbing banks, and generally being a terror, you can over come any weaknesses you do have, and grow up to be like your dad.

On top of this, I have to deal now with his lies, deceit, and new secret personal life. He tells his family that he is unhappy in his M and has been for a long time and longs to be &#8220;free,&#8221; but he doesn&#8217;t have the guts to tell me this to my face. He wants to &#8220;go back in time&#8221; and &#8220;start his life over&#8221; and be single again &#8211; going out to night clubs every weekend.

This is standard - if you have read here much you know it. You don't have to deal with it (as far as what anyone else thinks) , all you have to do
is be the person you have been all along. Be you, do what is right, go on with your life. I am not discounting your feelings...... that your whole life just came apart, I know you have to deal with that. I mean, you are still you, this wonderful person that tried so hard. You are still in there, under all the rubble. You can come out, wash off, and you can still have a life. You have what it takes, you are a success. If your H failed to measure up, how does that reflect on you?
Christ choose Judas to be one of the 12. Judas could have done well, but he made his own choices. Do you think less of Christ, because of his choice?

Neither does God think less of you. Neither do we or your parents, or does any one that really knows you.

How could I have been so stupid all along? I am embarrassed to even be admitting all of this. Love really is blind. I feel used and stupid. Am I that horrible to deserve all of this?
So, to end this all, I have to say that, in my case, fear of plan B would have continued to subject me to the abuse.

Please don't be embarrassed. As in the example above - you chose someone with potiential. He could have lived up to it - but he decided not to. I don't see how this is your fault. Please explain to me how you were supposed to see into the future, and know what he would do 10 years after you married him?

No, you are not that horrible. I could give examples of how (all over the world) good people are often put into horrible situations, none of which were their fault. I won't because it won't make your pain go way, and besides you already know with your head, it's your heart that cries out right now. - Those feelings I talked about at first.


I have to go, but will continue as time permits.

When you are feeling down, don't hug Lenny, it would make a mess, and hugs don't mean the same thing to a fish anyway.
Do....Remember that there are people in the world that care about you. Do remember who's daughter you are, and that if God is your father, you must be a princess, for he is surely a king.

SS

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

ML and SS, I have been thinking a lot about what you have posted - over the weekend and until now. I thank you, as always, for your heartfelt responses.

ML, you said, "you don't have to give up anything right now. You are far from calling this marriage over."

It sure feels over. Nothing in my situation has changed. I have not contacted my H, and he has not contacted me. It's as dark as can be around here. It still confirms to me that he is done. I have read so much about others in plan B, and their spouses can't handle the dark - they don't really want to let go of their H or W, so they try to make contact. It has been 3 weeks already for me in plan B and I don't even get a peep! I don't know, I guess I can never tell what might happen in the future. I might be surprised. There are only 3 weeks left for his current assignment. It's only a matter of time before I find out what he is going to do. He will either come back here, or look for an apartment.

I think you are seeing things now more clearly that you didn't see before and I am (and have) wondering how committed your H was to your marriage to begin with.

I am. I have seen things in bits and pieces before, and had blinders on for a lot of it, but I've NEVER put it all together like I'm doing now. I know I am not perfect and have made mistakes in the past, but this all seems so horrible to me when you put everything he's done together. I don't feel that I look at him the same anymore. I don't have the same respect for him anymore. I think I'm really losing hope. I don't think that he can ever be the same man he was (or I thought he was) any more. I don't know if I want him in my life anymore.

Trust me ML, I know that you are there for me. Your posts give more moral support than you know. And I know what you mean about being action-oriented. I mean, there's not much else I can do at this point! I've done everything I'm supposed to up until plan B. Now I stay dark and just focus on myself! The ball is no longer in my court.

Most of the time, though, I vent. It does feel good. I'm sure I repeat myself over and over again, too. Feel free to smack me with a 2x4 if you think that I need it. There's an action item for you! I really need to smack myself with a 2x4. I'm just torturing myself with the same thoughts 24 hours a day. So most of the time, I don't really expect a response - but it's always nice to get one!

Oh, and you asked where my H is from? He is from Argentina - but he is of European descent (75% German, 25% Italian.) My mother is from Argentina as well. I studied abroad in Argentina during my junior year in college - that's when I met my H.

SS,

Plan B DOES bring clarity to your mind. I am beginning to see the whole picture of my H. I thought I would miss him and remember only the good memories and his good qualities, but I am remembering it ALL.

I AM angry. I'm still angry and I just can't shake it! And I'm not an angry type of person! Will this ever go away? I guess it's like you say, I won't feel good right away.

I know what you mean now about still having feelings for him. When I left that note for him on the aquarium, I guess I was leaving it for my old H. The one that used to care for me. I think maybe I heard a little of my old H in the message that he left me when he asked about the fish. Maybe it was wrong for me to leave the note. I guess I had just a little spark of hope in me in that moment.

I also think I understand what you are saying about not being so horrible and not blaming myself if the M ends. I think he's got some serious issues. (H had serious problems with his father growing up. His father was HORRIBLE to him. I suggested to him that he should go to IC to learn to deal with it, but he says he doesn't need it)He might not be happy in our M now, but I wonder if he will ever be happy. He is going to take all of his issues with him and he is going to find himself in the same situation again at some point. I don't think that he will ever be happy with anyone long term. He is going to eventually find faults with them, too. I'm also pretty sure that not many would put up with him and try as long as I have. He needs to be happy with himself first. I don't know if he will ever get there. I feel sorry for him despite everything. So if you get a chance and don't mind, please say a prayer for H.

As for me, I guess I will be OK in the looooonnng run, no matter what happens.

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I spend a lot of time in anger....but that's going against my nature.... it feels like I'm suppose to be angry even when I don't want to be angry...weird huh? Just posted to you... cuz to say...I'm still reading you girl.

Thanks Harudah!

I posted to you on your thread.

<small>[ October 14, 2004, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I did a bad thing last night. I called my H.
I had a couple of financial issues that I needed to talk to him about.

We talked about it and then we chit chatted about his job. He was relatively pleasant. He's done next Tuesday! That's sooner than I thought. Then he'll be back at his old location. I know he was unhappy at his old location.

Here's the kicker. He told me that his friend called him to say that he bought a house in Miami with his girlfriend and they're moving all their belongings next Monday. He asked my H if he wants to come down to Miami with them to help them out. (This is his friend that helped us with our last long distance move) My H would also be able to spend time with this friend and get to know Miami as well. H essentially asked if it was ok (money-wise) for him to go. My H wants to go -- he will have a long weekend before he starts work at his old location the following Monday.

OK, it gets worse. He started saying that he's not sure what the flight would cost. He doesn't have access to the internet. He said his friend's GF might be able to look it up for him --or he might call the airline. I should have said nothing at all, but no. What do I do? I say "I'll look it up for you." !!!!!! I'm sure he expected me to say that - he really knows how to play me. I guess that's why you need to stay dark in plan B! I think I'm much better at plan A.

We didn't talk about our M at all. Neither of us brought it up. I don't know if he plans on returning to live at home, or if he plans on getting an apartment. I am assuming that since he didn't ever contact me to talk about our M as per my plan B letter, he's not interested in working on our M -- he's just moving on. He wants to leave for Miami on the 27th.

He said he'll have to wash clothes and pack up some summer clothes for the trip -- which means that he'll have to come home Tuesday night and Wednesday.

I can feel you guys shaking your heads at me in disapproval!

I've already looked at the rates and I have to call him tomorrow night. I wonder if I should ask him if I should get a ticket for myself as well. (Just to see his reaction.) I am also tempted to ask him what his plans are when he returns from Miami. Work on M or leave?

Part of me understands about him going to Miami -- see his friend, help him out. The other part of me says NO WAY -- he probably is avoiding our situation and he can party in Miami! You would think - with our M in crisis -- if he wanted to work on things, he would rather spend his long weekend with me discussing our M - especially after not seeing me or talking to me for 5-6 weeks.

Either way, he's going to do what he wants to do. I can't stop him. I still have to work on the concept of LETTING GO.

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>