Here's another comment. The only thing that he asked about ME was, "so, did you feed your fish today?" So I talked a little about the fish. Then, (mistake) I asked him if he liked him. He said "yeah, but there are so many other pretty fish out there, why did you buy a common goldfish?" See, I still can't get anything right.
Or am I just looking at this the wrong way?

Anyway despite all of this, I am trying to do the best that I can for me. I spent the pretty fall day yesterday buying some new flowers to plant up front including a big bright yellow mum. I bought a couple of pumpkins, too. This is all new for me. My H is the one with the green thumb and has always taken care of the flowers and plants. (He's always been disappointed with me about this, too). He'd be shocked to see what I've done.

I've been using Believer as my example in plan B. I liked the image that she described of having her house being clean and smelling sweet. I'm doing the same. I've bought myself fresh flowers to put inside as well. Little by little I'm getting rid of clutter and throwing old things away. (Does everyone clean out their closets in plan B?)

I'm still working on my plans to move back to Chicago at some point.

Overall, bit by bit, I feel like the old me is re-emerging. The me before I was married.

Still, though, I'm having nightmares (about H) about twice a week. Is this normal?

Hi,
I see you have been busy. I think I'll start back a few posts, if that's OK.

I know what you mean now about still having feelings for him. When I left that note for him on the aquarium, I guess I was leaving it for my old H. The one that used to care for me. I think maybe I heard a little of my old H in the message that he left me when he asked about the fish. Maybe it was wrong for me to leave the note. I guess I had just a little spark of hope in me in that moment.

If you read this again, you may see a hint of someone trying to justify what they did. Please understand - you are you, and I don't want to change you, I just try to comment on what I see, and make suggestions. You get to choose what you do - it's OK. You can make your own decisions, and we will support you the best we can.

I don't know if it was wrong, or right to leave the note. I just explained what I thought I saw. I thought I could still see some feelings - and as I said, this is good. I believe it does mean you have the same values as your parents, and that if the choice was yours, your marriage would last just as long or longer. I am glad you had a spark of hope, it seems to agree with what I have been saying.


I also think I understand what you are saying about not being so horrible and not blaming myself if the M ends. I think he's got some serious issues. (H had serious problems with his father growing up. His father was HORRIBLE to him. I suggested to him that he should go to IC to learn to deal with it, but he says he doesn't need it)He might not be happy in our M now, but I wonder if he will ever be happy.

I wonder if he will ever be happy too. It does sound like a cycle of abuse, I am almost glad you never had children. I am glad you are not in the middle of it right now.


He is going to take all of his issues with him and he is going to find himself in the same situation again at some point. I don't think that he will ever be happy with anyone long term. He is going to eventually find faults with them, too. I'm also pretty sure that not many would put up with him and try as long as I have. He needs to be happy with himself first. I don't know if he will ever get there. I feel sorry for him despite everything. So if you get a chance and don't mind, please say a prayer for H.

I think many would have gone out and had an A themselves - because It is very difficult to live with that kind of control - DJ's, independent behavior, and it sounds like AO's too. Did you ever think about getting away from him? You did put up with a lot, I am wondering what your thoughts were through the years. I have prayed for both of you, and will continue to do so.

As for me, I guess I will be OK in the looooonnng run, no matter what happens.
I believe you will be OK in the long run.

What I worry about is the pain, and the hurt in the short run.
How is the short run going?
Still have the anger? Lets see, it doesn't sound like it, from reading below. Any comment?

I did a bad thing last night. I called my H.
I had a couple of financial issues that I needed to talk to him about.

So you called instead of e-mail or some other form of communication that would be less stressful.

It sounds like you needed contact to maintain your hopes?

Why do you say it was a bad thing? I am interested in your thoughts. I understand there is no contact in plan B, and I am sure you are referring to that, but I wonder if you have other reasons for what you said. Have you thought about your motive, and do you understand it?

Was your reason for the call really all about financial issues??

Please note, this is not a confrontational question. I am asking mostly for you to be able to understand your own heart. You are a honest person, I think you can look inside, and know the answers. I suspect you weighted the pros, and cons, and said "what the heck, I think I'll call anyway."

We talked about it and then we chit chatted about his job. He was relatively pleasant. He's done next Tuesday! That's sooner than I thought. Then he'll be back at his old location. I know he was unhappy at his old location..............................................................................................OK, it gets worse. He started saying that he's not sure what the flight would cost. He doesn't have access to the internet. He said his friend's GF might be able to look it up for him --or he might call the airline. I should have said nothing at all, but no. What do I do? I say "I'll look it up for you." !!!!!! I'm sure he expected me to say that - he really knows how to play me. I guess that's why you need to stay dark in plan B! I think I'm much better at plan A.

I think you are better at plan A also, and that is a very big compliment, not a slam. What is the man thinking?

So, you like to please him, and you have worked hard at it, but he never seems to be satisfied.
How do you feel about the contact you had?
What did it do for you, and can you look back and see if it had any effect on him?

We didn't talk about our M at all. Neither of us brought it up. I don't know if he plans on returning to live at home, or if he plans on getting an apartment. I am assuming that since he didn't ever contact me to talk about our M as per my plan B letter, he's not interested in working on our M -- he's just moving on. He wants to leave for Miami on the 27th.

He said he'll have to wash clothes and pack up some summer clothes for the trip -- which means that he'll have to come home Tuesday night and Wednesday.

I can feel you guys shaking your heads at me in disapproval!

So, you are supposed to be perfect? I can't remember reading anywhere that everyone is always perfect in plan B. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I worry about your feelings, because you help him, and deep down you hope he will respond with some love, and possibly he will realize how much you did for him, and want to come back. I still see him as a taker, and I see no sign of anything but him continuing to take all he can get. I don't mean to make you feel bad, but I don't see signs he is changing.

I've already looked at the rates and I have to call him tomorrow night. I wonder if I should ask him if I should get a ticket for myself as well. (Just to see his reaction.) I am also tempted to ask him what his plans are when he returns from Miami. Work on M or leave?

AS far as doing laundry - it's still his home too. Someone said tell him to find another place to do it, but I think you are doing pretty well for the person you are, and for the situation you are in. As this goes on, and as you watch how he reacts, you will get a better feel for who, and what he really is.
It could tell you something if you ask about getting a ticket for you too, but what would it do to you if he said yes, then treated you badly if you were to go?

You understand him better than we do, would he be likely to say yes just for lack of other company?
Other questions come to mind here - think about how he does things -

Part of me understands about him going to Miami -- see his friend, help him out. The other part of me says NO WAY -- he probably is avoiding our situation and he can party in Miami! You would think - with our M in crisis -- if he wanted to work on things, he would rather spend his long weekend with me discussing our M - especially after not seeing me or talking to me for 5-6 weeks.

Yes, I would think that he would want to spend time with you if he had any intention of working things out.

Either way, he's going to do what he wants to do. I can't stop him. I still have to work on the concept of LETTING GO.

You can't fix him. Love can accomplish a lot, but he needs to help if this is going to work.
Please don't be hard on yourself, this goes against everything you believe in. I hope you don't still believe it's your fault. If you have faults, you should continue to work on them, but please don't blame yourself for what HE is doing.

Here's another comment. The only thing that he asked about ME was, "so, did you feed your fish today?" So I talked a little about the fish. Then, (mistake) I asked him if he liked him. He said "yeah, but there are so many other pretty fish out there, why did you buy a common goldfish?" See, I still can't get anything right.
Or am I just looking at this the wrong way?

Some things matter. If you were messy, wouldn't clean up after yourself, always left dirty dishes in the sink, and refused to help, I can see you needing to change. ( And BTW, I know you did most of the work, this is just an example) Lets look at this another way, and see what it looks like to you.

What's your favorite color? Oh, I like blue.
BLUE?? That's crazy, red is a much better color. Blue is stupid. With all the other colors out there to choose, why did you choose blue?

Do you see who has the problem? It's not you, is it.
Notice that the last is a statement, not a question.

Anyway despite all of this, I am trying to do the best that I can for me. I spent the pretty fall day yesterday buying some new flowers to plant up front including a big bright yellow mum. I bought a couple of pumpkins, too. This is all new for me. My H is the one with the green thumb and has always taken care of the flowers and plants. (He's always been disappointed with me about this, too). He'd be shocked to see what I've done.

Is there anything he wasn't disappointed about? Did he ever compliment you on anything?
Did your family notice how he treated you? Does your mother comment on it?

I'm still working on my plans to move back to Chicago at some point.
Home?

Overall, bit by bit, I feel like the old me is re-emerging. The me before I was married.
Good !
Don't be afraid of this. Trust yourself, you are trustworthy.
Be willing to love yourself, you are lovable.

Still, though, I'm having nightmares (about H) about twice a week. Is this normal?

I have never been where you are, and I can't answer that, but - do you think it has to do with your commitment, and your feelings for him?

Nightmares about him, not just dreams. Let me think.

Was he so emotionally abusive that your mind finds ways he can ruin your life even in your sleep?

Nightmares.
Please pray for God to show you want is best - and ask him help you understand what to do.
Here is a poem for you - it's been made into a hymn too, I wish you could hear the music. It seems to fit, I hope it helps.

Where can I turn for peace-
Emma Lou Thayne

Where can I turn for peace?
Where is my solace.
When other sources
cease to make me whole?

When with a wounded heart,
anger, or malice,
I draw myself apart,
Searching my soul.

Where, when my aching grows,
Where, when I languish,
Where, in my need to know,
where can I run?

Where is the quiet hand
to calm my anguish?
Who, who can understand?
He, only One.

He answers privately,
Reaches my reaching.
In my Gethsemane,
Savior and Friend.

Gentle the peace he finds
for my beseeching.
Constant he is and kind,
Love without end.


Trust yourself.

SS

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

That is one awesome reply stillseeking... if you're not a counselor yet, go get a degree. I hope what stillseeking wrote back to you will help clear your mind SVB.... and Its ok what you did, noone ever really do a clear*-no - mistake Plan B.... but you just continue on with no contact, it will help you in the long run. It's ok for wanting to talk to him, checking, hoping.. (just don't do it often)

How do you feel afterwards? I know you felt bad because MB said you shouldn't but after you talk to him.. how did you feel?

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: Harudah ]</small>

Hello. I have a big update -- I talked to my H tonight. I'm going to really need your input on our conversation. But I'm going to answer some questions first.

SS, I think Harudah is right. That was a great reply, but you ALWAYS have great replies. You should be a counselor if you are not one already. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think many would have gone out and had an A themselves - because It is very difficult to live with that kind of control - DJ's, independent behavior, and it sounds like AO's too. Did you ever think about getting away from him? You did put up with a lot, I am wondering what your thoughts were through the years.

It is difficult to live with that kind of control - and it does include AO's too. I've thought a lot about this. First of all, my H was my first love and serious relationship. Therefore, I can't even compare our relationship to any others, or know what a good relationship should be or feel like. Second of all, it all happened very gradually. In the beginning, I would notice something that would be a controlling type behavior and it would make me uncomfortable, but I would blow it off because I didn't want to rock the boat, I guess (I should have stopped it then, I know -it makes me think of that post on boundaries). Then it would happen more often, or to a higher degree, but I would just get used to it. Before you know it, you do wonder, how did we get to this point? There were moments in time when I thought of leaving, but not seriously (M is supposed to be forever!) I had seen and heard about abusive people, but I never thought he was that bad -- as you see in some cases.

I believe you will be OK in the long run. What I worry about is the pain, and the hurt in the short run. How is the short run going? Still have the anger? Lets see, it doesn't sound like it, from reading below. Any comment?

I have less anger. I guess it comes and goes. I should probably even be angry at him now because he wants to go to Miami, but I'm not! My friend tells me she would be furious. I guess I am just more disappointed than angry right now.

I'm also feeling pretty anxious - despite my AD's AND exercise. Trouble sleeping/eating again. I guess it's from renewed contact.

So you called instead of e-mail or some other form of communication that would be less stressful. It sounds like you needed contact to maintain your hopes? Why do you say it was a bad thing? I am interested in your thoughts. I understand there is no contact in plan B, and I am sure you are referring to that, but I wonder if you have other reasons for what you said. Have you thought about your motive, and do you understand it? Was your reason for the call really all about financial issues??

You've got it exactly right, SS. I said it was a bad thing because there's no contact in plan B. Deep down I guess I did need contact to maintain hopes. The call was for financial reasons, but I didn't really need to call him. I could have gotten around it. But I guess I thought it was a good enough excuse to call him and kind of put out my feelers. I didn't just want to call just to say HI.

How do you feel about the contact you had? What did it do for you, and can you look back and see if it had any effect on him?

To be honest, I'm not sure how I felt after the call. Just as confused as ever, I suppose. He wasn't as distant as I thought he'd be. I wasn't sure if he'd be angry with me, happy to hear from me (not that he would mention it anyway), or just be distant and act as if he didn't care one way or the other and want to just get off the phone. It was almost as if we just picked up where we left off. I'm not sure what effect the call had on him - or our plan B distance. I guess the only feeling I got was that he was relieved that I would look up the flight information for him.

deep down you hope he will respond with some love, and possibly he will realize how much you did for him, and want to come back.

Exactly!

Is there anything he wasn't disappointed about? Did he ever compliment you on anything? Did your family notice how he treated you? Does your mother comment on it?

No, he never compliments me on anything. A compliment to me is a lack of criticism, if that makes any sense. For instance, if I cook and he doesn't say anything (i.e. "you put too much salt in here, you always put too much salt in food") then it's ok.

Yes, my family has noticed how he treats/treated me. My mother and brother both feel that he emotionally abuses me. At this point, they both think that I'd be better off without him. But as my mother told me, "it is all about how much you love him and what you can put up with." I'm sure she would support me whatever I decide. But she also believes that I should "stand up to him," or set boundaries if he comes back.

Thank you for the poem, too, BTW. It does fit very well. I am going to print it out and refer to it now and again when needed.

OK, I need to stop for now because I am WIPED OUT. It's almost 1am as I finish this. I'll post the phone call tomorrow.

Cleaning out closets is good in Plan B. Also organizing, rearranging, gardening, exercising. The main thing about Plan B is that it is very quiet while you are waiting it out. There is usually nothing to report.

I was in it for 4 months, and then out of the blue, WH called me at work one day and said he was in the process of moving back in.

Luckily, everyone here told me to stop him, unless there was NC with OW, and a plan to work on our marriage. So I went to court, and kept him out.

He is still with OW, but I am doing just fine. You will too. Just keep on doing what you are doing.

I called my H last night to give him flight information and fare for his trip to Miami. I also had to tell him about my car troubles. (I discovered yesterday morning.) It seems that I might have a transmission problem.

I asked him if I should buy a ticket for myself,too. He said, "but it's going to be all work." I said, "relax, I'm not going to go. I know you don't want me to go." I quickly went into something else, but I heard him kind of huff after that comment. Like I said, I just wanted to see what his reaction would be, and I got it.
It was pretty much what I expected.

We talked about the car some more. He said it's time to get rid of it. (the car's almost 9 years old.) He told me to start looking into what I might like -- as long as we can afford the payments. (Note the "we")

Then I got into the good stuff. I asked him about the letter. I said, "well, I guess I can assume that you're not interested in working on our M because you never contacted me?" He got a bit upset and said, "I didn't contact you because you asked me not to." I said, "yeah, until you decided that you wanted to work on the M." He said, "no, you asked me not to. I thought you just wanted to take a break." I said, "then you misunderstood the letter." How could he have misunderstood that? Was it a language thing? I wrote it in English and Spanish is his native language. Don't get me wrong, though, his English is great. Plus, I think of our conversations before he left.

I asked him, "so what does that mean? Do you want to work on our M?" He paused, and said, "yes."

Me: "really?"
H: "yes, I think it's worth it."
Me: "seriously, from your heart, that's what you want?"
H: "that's what I feel."
Me: "I thought of what you said before about you not wanting to live separate lives like we have been. But it was not me living a separate life, it was you. We have to have complete honesty from now on. No lies, no secrets, no separate lives. Without honesty and trust, there is no M."
H: "ok."
H: "but I don't want you to push it." (I figure relationship talks 24x7)
Me: "ok, I know I can go overboard with this. We can take it slowly."
Me: (pushing it already) "so you want to spend the rest of your life with me?"
H: (after a long pause): "I don't know."

Ok, then I let it go. I am assuming that, based on the last comment, he is willing to work on our M, and then he will see how he feels about the long term. He is a man of few words about these things.

I feel very hopeful now, but I don't know if I can fully trust him. Does he really want to work on our M, or is he playing along to come home until he figures out what he'd rather do?

I really need your opinions.

I figure that he can come home and I can monitor how things go. I can use my recorder for the first week or so to see if what he tells me jives with what he tells his family. If it does, I will retire the recorder. If not, and he is just stringing me along some more -- I swear I am packing my bags and going to Chicago (yes, home sweet home). I won't take any more.

The only other concern of mine is the emotional abuse. Will it ever get better? Will I be able to continue to put up with it? Will I be able to set boundaries and stick with them? Though I mentioned MC and IC to him in the past, I didn't mention it last night.

I don't want to lose the old me I've been rediscovering in my plan B. I don't want to lose myself anymore in this relationship.

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

Stay in Plan B, my dear. You need to give it several months.

believer,

How did you know he was in contact with OW still before he came home?

H doesn't have a proven OW at this point. Do you think I should let him come home and then monitor his actions? I can't really monitor him w/o him being at home.

svb, do you see anything here that is a change from his attitude that has made you so miserable? I see nothing new here. I see no committment to your marriage whatsoever.

I see that he might accept moving back home if you agree to stay off his back. If you can live with things the way they were: non-committment, secrecy, lack of intimacy, etc, then you should proceed.

But why would you settle for that?

But there is absolutely nothing different here and I am very afraid that you are setting yourself up for deep disappointment once your wishful thinking gives way to reality.

Listen to Melody. She kept me from making a huge mistake. I would have had WH back home with no changes, still doing like he wanted to do.

Thanks believer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

svb, it comes down to this: your H is indifferent to you and your marriage. You cannot change him in this aspect. So your choice comes down to:

a) letting him move home and watching the indifference up close, breaking your heart every day and living in turmoil

b) stick with Plan B and let him be inidfferent from afar while you learn to live in peace and detach from this dysfunctional situation

Plan B does sound better. mmmmm peace. I do feel more peace.

OK, there are chances that he is not sincere and he will be the same when he comes back. But what if he is sincere? What if he really intends to try when he comes back? How can I not give him a chance? How will I know when it IS time to let him back, if I don't let him back now? I don't know if I'm even strong enough right now to tell him not to come home.

I've still got until November 1 before he is officially back. I might have some more clues about his true state of mind before then. I'm thinking of sending him some stuff to read.

I've really got to think about this.

I can think of a third option -

Live apart, and work out the differences, and problems.

I believe if he returns now, it will be back just like it was within a week. He still controls and abuses over the phone, there is no reason to believe he will do better in person.

SVB,
You wondered once about ending the marriage, and for what reasons it could be done.

I have a link to some information that discusses marriage, and also mentions (almost in passing) a little about when ending a marriage would be the best choice.
Link
(The site I linked to was using frames - which I didn't notice. It should work now - loading in the top frame. If not, you can click on item two in the bottom frame.)

You alone can judge if you have been in "a prolonged and apparently irredeemable relationship which is destructive of a person's dignity as a human being."

It may be that he is honest and wants to make things work. It may be that he isn't ready to make the break yet, and he wants to use you for a while before he leaves.

Lets be honest, we haven't seen any sign of change in his heart, and it has to be there for this to work. Honesty also requires us to note that people can change, and sometimes do change if they have proper stimuli.

You need to let your head rule on this one, not your heart. I know you want so badly to make it work, but you need to exercise care, and you need to protect yourself, because we have no reason to believe he will look out for you.

If you can come up with a plan to give him a chance to change with out endangering yourself, I would vote for it, but his coming home right now doesn't seem to do that for you.

If you put forth a plan and he gets angry, or he says that your plan is the last straw, and he is finished, you know where his heart is, and you can walk away with a clean conscience.

Anyone whose heart is right will want a chance to make things better, and to make things work. If you give him a chance and he refuses, he has made the judgment, and condemned himself. At the very least, he should negotiate the way the plan works, and work with you on it.

I believe you will understand - I trust you can come up with a plan that will let you progress with out falling back in to the hole you have spent so much energy climbing out of.

So, write him another letter. Lay it out for him, the good, and the bad. Tell him what you need - and let him choose which way to go.

Please don't go back to where you were before. If you are going to have a marriage, you need a new building from the foundation up to the roof. The old one has been condemned, and current rules prevent occupation.

One of my main reasons for posting to you is to help you see who you are, and what your relationship to God is. He doesn't want you to live in fear all of your life, he wants you to be happy.

I tell you again to trust yourself. You really are trustworthy. You have inside of you the power to succeed in this, and you need to find it and use it. I know it is difficult, but I believe in you - you need to believe also.

SS

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Oh yes,
(I almost forgot, please forgive me)
Thank you both for your kind words. I am not a professional, just one of the many who come here to help, and encourage. I still think SVB1 could benefit from calling the Harleys.

SS

SS,

It says that there is "no active search" in the link. Is there a particular article I should look up?

Think it's fixed.

Now, about you.

Think on things some, and tell us what your heart says, and what your head says.

We give advice. You live your life, and you are the one that makes the choices. Please remember we give advice out of care and concern, but we acknowledge your right to do this as you see best. OK?

No matter what, we'll probably worry though. I don't know if you can do much about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

I wanted to comment on my dreams. These are the two that I had last week.

In the first dream, my H and I were at my mother's house. There was a huge storm and the house was about to be severely flooded. There was an ocean of dark water headed toward the house. (Definitely not reality - house is on a hill with no water anywhere nearby) My mother and I and some strangers were putting sandbags around the house. I went inside to look for my H. He was on the phone in a serious conversation. When I started to walk in the room, he set the phone down on the couch. I heard the person on the phone saying loudly, "is she in the room?" But it was a male?s voice. I said loudly, "YES I'M IN THE ROOM." He hung up the phone. I asked H who that was. He said "nobody." I started to beg him to tell me who it was. I was panicked and crying. I think I was shaking him, too. He just looked at me and laughed and he was shaking his head in disgust with a look on his face like he thought I was pathetic.

In the second dream, he was away at work for a long period of time (like now) and staying in a hotel. I decided to surprise him and visit him on his last day. I met him outside of his room and he didn't want to let me in right away. Finally we went in and he went into the bathroom. I rifled through his room looking for evidence. I found condoms. I asked him about the condoms and he confessed to having someone in the room last night, but it was the only time it ever happened. Somehow later I found that he was lying. He was having an ongoing relationship with someone. I think I caught him on the phone later in the hallway with the OP saying that he's got me fooled.

I wonder if I?m reading too many stories on MB.

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

My heart is definitely telling me to let H come home and to keep trying.

My head is telling me not to trust him. It is telling me to run .... run all the way to Chicago and start my life over. But to be honest, my head doesn't really want to get involved. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I guess I'm still somewhat in denial.

I'm still thinking and praying about this.

I would like to make a plan and run it by him. I want to get him to start reading some of MB's information. I would like him to fill out the EN questionnaire and to read His Needs Her Needs. I would like to start counseling with the Harleys. I would also like him to start IC.

I guess all I can do is talk to the Harleys myself and lay out the plans to my H. If he rejects it all completely, I will have my answer on what to do.

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

Dreams often mirror our hopes, or our fears.

What do you think about your dreams?

I chuckled about reading to many stories on MB, It's funny, but I really don't think that's the problem. For some reason, I don't think you do either.


My heart is definitely telling me to let H come home and to keep trying.

My head is telling me not to trust him. It is telling me to run .... run all the way to Chicago and start my life over. But to be honest, my head doesn't really want to get involved. I guess I'm still somewhat in denial.

If you are going to do this, you need to listen to both. Your head wants to keep you safe. You haven't been emotionally safe for most of your married life. Your heart -
Oh, you know about hearts, they represent the part of life that lets us really live. The dream part of us, the hope part, the love part. You seem to be afraid that if this dream dies, there will never be another to take it's place.

Your head needs to be in on this, becasuse it knows things your heart won't consider on it's own. If you will balance what you do between the two, you have the best chance of making this work, or the best chance for being happy if it does not work.

I'm still thinking and praying about this.
Both are good choices, and will help you a great deal. One of them by it self won't bring success.

I would like to make a plan and run it by him. I want to get him to start reading some of MB's information. I would like him to fill out the EN questionnaire and to read His Needs Her Needs. I would like to start counseling with the Harleys. I would also like him to start IC.

I think you are getting to the "putting him to work" part of things before you even know if he is willing to take the job. I think you need to find out if he is telling the truth about wanting to work on things. I think Calling the Harleys for counseling would help you know what to do, but still give you the best chance of success.

You need to have a rock solid plan, that will let you know you did the best you could, but also protect you from further harm. I think you could get that in one or two sessions. Note that I have never worked with them, but I have been reading on this site for nearly three years (began reading long before I started posting) and I think they are the best help you can get.

I guess all I can do is talk to the Harleys myself and lay out the plans to my H. If he rejects it all completely, I will have my answer on what to do.

Exactly. Please don't promise him anything in the short term. Let your head guide you here.

I have one request as a personal favor. I hope you will do this for me.

I request you read your mother the quote about when D is justified, and ask her if she thinks you are to that point.

I ask it this way because I think I know some things. I think your mother is very fair. I think she wants your marriage to succeed, as much as she wants you to be protected and cared for. I think you trust her to give an honest answer. I think you will listen to her. Not that it is time to walk away, but I want you to know what your options are - and I think she can help you know that.

I know lots of things in that article didn't apply to you, but I hope some of it helped. I hope it did not make you feel guilty - that was not my intent.

Although abuse exists in marriage, it does not exist in the right kind of marriage, and I know it does not exist in the marriage you long for. It should not exist in any marriage and I wish for you to be free of abuse either way this goes.

That's what I am trying to help you bring about. That's why you need to use your head too.

SS

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

svb,

Whatever your decision, I hope your let your reason lead instead of your emotions. Your emotions can be very misleading, especially when you are this wounded and vulnerable. Your logic and reason will protect you, your "heart" will lead you astray almost every time because its goal is to satisfy every whim regardless of the long term consequences.

Right now your emotions are wounded and are desperately looking for a salve. Even if its a salve that is really poison just because it eases your pain for the moment.

I know that you miss your H very much right now and would only remind you to proceed cautiously and remember why you are in Plan B in the first place.

You are here because Plan A did not end this emotional impasse in your marriage. Going backwards to Plan A is a little like insanity, doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results. Plan A did not end it in the past and it won't end it in the future.

Further, I am afraid that if you do allow him to come home, that you will be right where you were before, except now you will have no leverage with which to work.

I get the sense that he is not interested at all in this marriage, after all, he hasn't lifted a finger to save it. He seems indifferent. And this makes me feel that he will "consider" coming home only for his convenience, not to work on his marriage, *IF* you agree to shut up about it and not annoy him.

This puts you right back to square one except in an even more POWERLESS position because you have forfeited any and all leverage and basically settled for NOTHING.

He is offering nothing, svb. Can you settle for that?

Proverbs 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.


Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?