Everything is still continuing to go well here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> H is still being very sweet to me.

We haven't had any discussions yet about our M issues. He hasn't brought up anything, which worries me a little. A part of me thinks that he figures that if he is sweet to me, we don't have to talk about any issues. WRONG. I plan on talking to him tonight. I have my MC appt. tonight with Jennifer. I haven't told H yet, but I will tell him as soon as I get home. I can't hide it since he will be home, and I don't want to hide it, either.

It might be good to tell him point blank that things need to be different or it is all over.

That is exactly what I am going to tell him. After I talk to Jennifer, (and based on what she suggests) I hope to lay out what I would like as a plan to re-build our M. Hopefully he will react well. Hopefully, he will be willing to fully participate.

Keep in mind all your findings of the last 6 or 7 months. Keep in mind he would leave and not tell you where he went. Keep in mind the other things you found, and how you were treated.

I am going to do my best to keep this in mind. I am also keeping in mind to be MYSELF and stand up for MYSELF. Thankfully, I haven't had to stand up for myself yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That's a good sign. If he thought about things - and if the short plan B helped his thought processes, he could be realizing what might really happen. To early to tell though.

I have more thoughts about this. I'm going to post more about this later. There was something that my H told me on his 1st night back that might have given me a clue to what he might have been thinking during his time away. It might just be wishful thinking again on my part.

I think you will know by the end of the year for sure.

Me too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (all smiley faces tonight - have you noticed?)

Big update.

I got home from work last night and my H was waiting for me with dinner already prepared. I told him about the counseling - that I was expecting a phone call later on. He didn't have a problem with it. I told him that things had to change. I told him that I was really serious in the letter that I sent about coming up with a plan and working on the M when he returned. Again, he said that was fine as long as I don't "push it." I asked him what he meant by that. He said he doesn't want me to bring it up everyday like before. (Sheesh that was a long time ago - pre plan A!) I said I wouldn't, we could take it slowly. Oh, and I printed out the beginning of the basic concepts, "How Dr. Harley learned to save marriages" and I asked him to pretty please read it.

Then I had my counseling with Jennifer - it was fabulous. She said that I had done a good job up until now. Now I need to return to plan A and introduce him to the basic concepts of the MB plan. Now that he seems interested in working on our M, he really needs to know what to do. I can't push the plan on him because he might not be 100% ready. I need to do a "soft sell" with him. She suggested what I might say to him. If he doesn't want to go along with it, I could always resort to another plan B in the future.

Well, later on that night, I came downstairs, and H was reading what I had printed out for him! He finished reading it and said, "where's the rest of it?" I said I'd print it out for him and he can read it all whenever he feels like it. I then told him exactly what Jennifer suggested that I tell him. It seemed like a good moment. He's ok with everything. He's not extremely enthusiastic (not that he said anything), but he's willing. Jennifer said that I could expect that. He didn't say very much, but I knew he was listeninig to and hearing what I said.
It's good enough for me for now.

Have you guys fallen off your chairs?

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I haven't fallen off my chair - I was hoping and praying for this!!

I don't have much time - but just a couple of things.

1. Good for you -

2. We don't know what will happen, but looking on the bright side is a good thing.

3. Be careful - use your heart to keep your hopes up, but use your head to make decisions from day to day.

There are still a lot of things that are unexplained about his past actions. Until you have a few months of the new H, hope, but please, please take care of yourself, and protect your heart.

So glad you called Jen, I think you are too. There is a big difference between a real Pro, and those of us who are fellow travelers.

Back later when I have more time. Thanks so much for the update, I tend to worry too much.

SS

svb, that is awesome news! I am very glad you contacted Jennifer, I think she is a great counselor who can guide you through this. Good news! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Mel -
(SS waves )

Hey SVB, I hope your weekend was a good one. A few days together should tell you more about how he is really feeling.

I hope you are holding up well - no matter how he is doing.

SS

More updates....

Everything is still going well so far. Keep your fingers crossed, pleeeease. At night, when H and I sleep, he always wants to hold me. If he doesn't have his arm around me, he has to have some sort of contact - even just a toe. It's weird. It's not that we've never snuggled before, but it's as if he doesn't want to let me go.

As for giving him more of Dr. Harley's basic concepts, I printed it all out and put it in a binder with dividers. (I read somewhere that someone else did this for their spouse). I gave it to him last night before we went to sleep. I thought he was going to freak at the amount of information to read (H is not a reader). But he didn't. He just joked and asked where all the little pictures were. He said he wanted little pictures. I said that I would add stickers and little pictures everywhere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I pointed out the dividers and said he could read it a little at a time, if he liked.

Then ... get this ... he asked me "does that book (His Needs Her Needs) come in Spanish?"
I said "probably, do you want it in Spanish? I have it in English." He said he wants to send it to his sister. He said English is fine for him. Not that he said that he'd read it exactly, though. I guess I'll leave it out and about for him to pick up and look at whenever he feels like it - if he wants to. I don't want to pressure him.

OK, here's the bad part...

Today is my H's first day off from work alone at home. Needless to say, I'm feeling a little anxious. I don't want to slip back into that same pattern - where he sneaks off on his days off and I panic. I didn't check his miles this morning. I want to give him a chance. If he goes somewhere today, I will most likely have a clue anyway - doing laundry, freshly showered when I come home. But then again, he already told me yesterday that he's got to do laundry today, and he's been meaning to go to the gym more often - so it pretty likely that I'll find both, but it could be legit. I guess if I find him freshly showered and doing laundry, I will have to start checking his miles again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He's got to earn my trust again.

I've also been using my voice-activated recorders here and there. I haven't noticed anything really special. He talked to one sister last Thursday, and his favorite sister yesterday. The good news is that I heard NO talk of "our M is over." or "I want to be free."

He did talk to them both about his aspirations at work. After this experience he had of opening a new store - he wants to continue doing it. He told me this, too, though. Although he has me under the impression that it will be all local and he can come home for the weekends and be off for two weeks to a month between each project. He told sis it would be international. Either way, it would be only for a couple of years, and it would help him advance more quickly in his career. I think he might be afraid of my reaction and he might have been "testing me out" by at least mentioning it to me, but leaving out the international part.

Opinions?

OK, one last thing, he mentioned to sis yesterday that he's thinking that he'd like to pay for niece's honeymoon. His niece is now in a serious R and there is talk of M. He said that he doesn't know how to bring it up to me. Why ON EARTH would he want to pay for her honeymoon? 1. She's about to turn 30 and she works. 2. She will have a husband who works. 3. She has PARENTS, too. 4. We gave her a great gift when she graduated from college.(paid for 1/2 of her laptop) 5. We used almost all of our airline miles to bring her and her 2 brothers up to the States for the holidays last year - not to mention all of the money that we spent while they were here. 6. He's got 24 other nieces and nephews. Do we have to do this with all of them, too? (Now you know why he'd be afraid to bring it up to me!)

At least I'm aware of this before he brings it up. I can emotionally prepare for this discussion! It's not that I don't want to give her a gift, but COME ON - her whole honeymoon? ! We are NOT made of money, though I think he likes to portray it. We are really going to have to POJA this! He has to learn what POJA is first, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I might have to give him a crash course on that one.

Whew, it felt good to let that last part get out of my system. I wouldn't go off like that on him in real life. I would be a lot nicer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What do you guys think so far? Good signs or bad signs?

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I have a couple more comments.

First, I forgot to mention that sis recommended to H that he go to IC. Yeay sis! She thinks that he gets too uptight about things (they were discussing his work when this came up). He will more likely listen to her advice than mine. I am very glad that she mentioned this to him.

Second, I've been thinking a lot about something that my H talked about on his first night back. He was talking about his trip to Miami and he talked AT LENGTH about the R between his friend and his friend's GF. He said that he has absolutely NO IDEA why this girl is with his friend. This couple just purchased a house together and the GF had to worry about taking care of absolutely everything. H's friend was just clueless about and not interested in anything that needed to be done. He likened his friend to a big child who doesn't even realize or appreciate what is being done for him.

OK, this could be wishful thinking, but I am hoping that H's 6 weeks away from me, plus his visit to Miami, made him realize what he's got in me. I mean, I am not perfect, nobody is, but I DO have good qualities. I guess I just hope that the plan A/ plan B combo really opened up his eyes to them. I think it might have.

He also mentioned meeting some of his friend's friends - all from Argentina. H was not impressed at all. He felt that they were all very shallow. When they first met, they all looked at him up and down. He said the girls were only worried about getting their nails and hair done, and going to the gym, and having a good time. They had no conversation at all. H said, "who wants somebody like that?"

Ok, again, I hope that these are all signs of his thinking. Time will probably tell. Of course, it would be nice if he SAID stuff like, "I missed you," or "I appreciate all that you do," or "my time away has made me realize what I've got in you." But he is not a man of words - he is a man of action - and those are MY needs to hear them.
I am going to wait for him to read MB's concepts and just enjoy what I do get from him for now.

Thanks for reading.

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

Well, it looks like I'll have to start checking miles again. H has done laundry and has already taken a shower, too.

I have set up my recorder today. I'll have to listen to it tomorrow to have more of an idea of what time he left and returned, etc. He did buy wine today, but that doesn't mean that it's the only place he went, just as in the past.

H is upstairs and ironing some clothes right now. He seems pretty happy. I, on the other hand, have a stomachache. I guess this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it's not a good sign. I will have to keep checking on him for a while now.

I know that I am not supposed to get my hopes up too high. I'm supposed to keep in mind what he has done in the past and how he has treated me - and I am, but it's tough.

Time will tell for sure.

The things he is saying sound really good. It does sound like he is starting to get it. Coupled with the different actions, I believe you could have something here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just as your mother worries, we worry. You are important. Your feelings matter, we don't want to see you hurt.

I trust you to take care of yourself. It sounds like you have hope, but that you are being careful. I think that is wise.

You should also know that if H has changed, and he finds out about snooping it will most likely harm recovery efforts. Please be careful - before if he found out, so what, he wasn't acting like H anyway. Now he is, and things are a little different.

I have run out of time, but I will try to post more tomorow. When is your next appointment with Jen?

I hope you are getting some joy out of this reunion with your H. I hope it helps both of you. Really, if you think about it, it should.

SS

Hello SS,

The things he is saying sound really good. It does sound like he is starting to get it. Coupled with the different actions, I believe you could have something here.

Boy,I sure hope so! I am glad that you think so.

You should also know that if H has changed, and he finds out about snooping it will most likely harm recovery efforts. Please be careful - before if he found out, so what, he wasn't acting like H anyway. Now he is, and things are a little different.

I didn't really think of this, but I will be careful.

When is your next appointment with Jen?

I haven't officially made one yet. She mentioned that I should talk to her again in a couple of weeks to let her know how things are going - if I feel that I need to. I think I will give this 2 to 4 weeks to see how we are doing before I make another appointment.

Everything is still going well. He asked me again the other night if I found HNHN in Spanish yet. (I didn't bring up the subject at all) I haven't noticed if he's read any more of MB concepts. I haven't seen the binder move at all. Hmmmm.

Double post

<small>[ November 11, 2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Everything is still going well so far. Keep your fingers crossed, pleeeease.

OK, fingers, and toes too, just in case.


At night, when H and I sleep, he always wants to hold me. If he doesn't have his arm around me, he has to have some sort of contact - even just a toe. It's weird. It's not that we've never snuggled before, but it's as if he doesn't want to let me go.

Actions need to match words. I believe this is an important indicator. I bet you snuggle back with all your heart. Enjoy it, you earned it.

As for giving him more of Dr. Harley's basic concepts, I printed it all out and put it in a binder with dividers. (I read somewhere that someone else did this for their spouse). I gave it to him last night before we went to sleep. I thought he was going to freak at the amount of information to read (H is not a reader). But he didn't. He just joked and asked where all the little pictures were. He said he wanted little pictures. I said that I would add stickers and little pictures everywhere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I pointed out the dividers and said he could read it a little at a time, if he liked.

If he is not a reader, he may not be able to bring himself to read it even though he may think it is a good idea. I don't know how much stock I would put in his reading, or not reading.

..............He said English is fine for him. Not that he said that he'd read it exactly, though. I guess I'll leave it out and about for him to pick up and look at whenever he feels like it - if he wants to. I don't want to pressure him.

He does have to show effort - and I don't think you should worry about pressure.
Well, wait a minute.........that's not right. No one likes to be pressured, however it would be good to point out your feelings and be honest. You were ready to leave, and if things don't change, you will leave. He needs to know how close you were, and he needs to know why. That will be hard for you, because you sense there may be a beginning recovery, and you don't want to mess that up. Remember, you don't want to recover what you HAD BEFORE, and that's what many get, if they don't bring things out in the open and discuss them.

So, what I am saying, is don't be afraid to get things out in the open. Him joking about reading, and pictures won't get the work done, and you may have to state that plainly sometime. It is a good SIGN, but that alone WON'T FIX ANYTHING. You are going to have to have some hard discussions (hard because you don't know how he will react) before this is over, don't be afraid of them, because they will make the difference between a good marriage, and having what you had last time. I think you know what you want.

OK, here's the bad part...

Today is my H's first day off from work alone at home. Needless to say, I'm feeling a little anxious. I don't want to slip back into that same pattern - where he sneaks off on his days off and I panic. I didn't check his miles this morning. I want to give him a chance.

You not knowing is not "giving him a chance." Giving him a chance was letting him come home. It's up to him to show he is making good use of the chance. Go ahead and check, I think you need to know. Unless you have all the facts, you don't know if this is working.

If he goes somewhere today, I will most likely have a clue anyway - doing laundry, freshly showered when I come home. But then again, he already told me yesterday that he's got to do laundry today, and he's been meaning to go to the gym more often - so it pretty likely that I'll find both, but it could be legit. I guess if I find him freshly showered and doing laundry, I will have to start checking his miles again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He's got to earn my trust again.

Exactly, he has to earn your trust. If you have the book "love busters, habits that destroy romantic love," there is a good description of why independent behavior is destructive of marriages. That's what he was doing - and it looked like an A, but even if it wasn't, he destroyed your trust in him by HIS ACTIONS, not because of any thing you did or did not do. If you are going to recover, these kinds of things need to change, and they will only change if he knows about them.

So, if he won't read, you are going to have to talk a lot, and he has to be willing to listen and do the work. If not, you may as well quit now, because it won't work long term.

Why am I telling you all this?
Because I don't want you to avoid hard conversations in the name of recovery. Recovery means that you have them, (hard conversations) and that the outcome is the right one. If you don't have them, or if he won't learn, and change, your chances are slim. That's why your mother, and brother wanted you to quit, and it's still going to be hard, even if it works, there will be some pain before it's over.

I've also been using my voice-activated recorders here and there. I haven't noticed anything really special. He talked to one sister last Thursday, and his favorite sister yesterday. The good news is that I heard NO talk of "our M is over." or "I want to be free."

I think your H is not used to sharing his deepest feelings. Even when he talked to his sisters, it was about his plans, not about how he felt. I don't know if you will get through to this part of him in the short term, but if he will change his actions PERMANENTLY you will know his feelings have changed also.
I only get a small snapshot of things through this communication method that we use. What do you think? Has he ever been good at sharing his feelings?

About his job -
Having his travel will not be good for your marriage. If this is going to happen, you will need lots of help to remain married to him. I say this because recovery takes time as it is, but it is so much more difficult when one of the parties is not there.

You already know all the reasons - maybe Jen will have suggestions for what to do about this.

Opinions?

I like chocolate cake best, but pumpkin pie isn't bad on Thanksgiving.


OK, one last thing, he mentioned to sis yesterday that he's thinking that he'd like to pay for niece's honeymoon. His niece is now in a serious R and there is talk of M. He said that he doesn't know how to bring it up to me. Why ON EARTH would he want to pay for her honeymoon? 1. She's about to turn 30 and she works. 2. She will have a husband who works. 3. She has PARENTS, too. 4. We gave her a great gift when she graduated from college. (paid for 1/2 of her laptop) 5. We used almost all of our airline miles to bring her and her 2 brothers up to the States for the holidays last year - not to mention all of the money that we spent while they were here. 6. He's got 24 other nieces and nephews. Do we have to do this with all of them, too? (Now you know why he'd be afraid to bring it up to me!)

Tell him the wedding is coming up and you have some ideas for a gift, then see what he says. (but really have an idea, you might need it.)

The Policy of Joint Agreement covers all of this. In fact, Dr Harleys stuff covers it all. If you can read and agree on the materials, your marriage will become really good, strong, close over time. It worked for us, and it can work for you too, but it requires ACTION. It will take about two years, hence my fear of him traveling for that long.


At least I'm aware of this before he brings it up. I can emotionally prepare for this discussion! It's not that I don't want to give her a gift, but COME ON - her whole honeymoon? ! We are NOT made of money, though I think he likes to portray it. We are really going to have to POJA this! He has to learn what POJA is first, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I might have to give him a crash course on that one.

Not made of money - hmmm, you sound like your parents now.
I'm teasing, I'm teasing, don't take it personal.

Perhaps he does want to make a big impression on them. However things like that shouldn't be done at your expense. Go ahead and tell him your give idea, and see where it goes.

Whew, it felt good to let that last part get out of my system. I wouldn't go off like that on him in real life. I would be a lot nicer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

This is one of items important in helping your marriage recover.
Do you get the newsletter by email from Steve Harley? One of the last few issues had a discussion about radical honest, vs care and protection. You NEED to be honest with him about these things. If you can't learn to discuss your true feelings, you won't have that marriage you want, because he can't do what he doesn't know.

I realize this is his fault - because of how he treated you when you would express your feelings, but you need to change that this time around. Notice you already know this, but I keep talking about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I do that a lot when I want you to realize that something is REALLY IMPORTANT. Smile, I am half teasing, but only half. OK?

SO, you need to express your feelings - that's radical honesty. You also need to protect his feelings, so you need to learn to do it in ways that he will understand, and accept.
"Men are from Mars, Women from Venus" is a good book to help with this, because the ways you want to do it are usually what works best for Gals, and I wonder if that is part of his problem, that he doesn't understand sometimes.

There will be a lot of learning for both of you. I speak from experience. Our marriage is good, but I can't fully express how wonderful it is for BOTH of us to be happy - not one of us at the others expense.

What do you guys think so far? Good signs or bad signs?

I see good signs. Normal snags, and you need to build on this as discussed, but I see good signs.
I think you can get excited, but do it carefully. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have a couple more comments.

That's OK, it's your thread. You can comment as much as you like. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

First, I forgot to mention that sis recommended to H that he go to IC. Yeay sis! She thinks that he gets too uptight about things (they were discussing his work when this came up). He will more likely listen to her advice than mine. I am very glad that she mentioned this to him.

Men and women often react to stress differently. she would understand him well, having lived with him for a long time. I wonder if she would talk to you about HIM, and give you pointers. Are you good friends with her?

Second, I've been thinking a lot about something that my H talked about on his first night back. ......... he talked AT LENGTH about the R between his friend and his friend's GF. ..................H's friend was just clueless ............He likened his friend to a big child who doesn't even realize or appreciate what is being done for him.

OK, this could be wishful thinking, but I am hoping that H's 6 weeks away from me, plus his visit to Miami, made him realize what he's got in me.

I hope it helped too. If he is truthful with himself, he will realize what you are - what he has. From his ACTIONS it seems he does understand .......at least a little bit.

I mean, I am not perfect, nobody is, but I DO have good qualities.

Wait, wait, wait just a minute. Your mom told me you WERE perfect. Can you two get your stories straight? I would really like to know which it is.

Do you know what things he had problem with? Are there things he had real problems with? From the stories you relate (about what he says when you are cold) he isn't realistic. How would you know what the real issues are? Do you know already, or do you need to find out what your own Love Busters are?

Fun aside, it's something to think about - but I bet you are working on it - that would be my thought without knowing.

I guess I just hope that the plan A/ plan B combo really opened up his eyes to them. I think it might have.

I think it is all coming together for him, but it will take a few months to know if this is a false recovery or not. He can't pretend forever - though it looks sincere right now.

He also mentioned meeting some of his friend's friends - all from Argentina. H was not impressed at all. He felt that they were all very shallow. When they first met, they all looked at him up and down. He said the girls were only worried about getting their nails and hair done, and going to the gym, and having a good time. They had no conversation at all. H said, "who wants somebody like that?"

It begins to look like HE doesn't - it looks like he is thinking about it, and you look really good right now. Who would have thought he would get it like that? I think he might be trying to tell you his feelings with his stories. Would that be consistent with his past way of doing things?

Ok, again, I hope that these are all signs of his thinking. Time will probably tell. Of course, it would be nice if he SAID stuff like, "I missed you," or "I appreciate all that you do," or "my time away has made me realize what I've got in you." But he is not a man of words - he is a man of action - and those are MY needs to hear them.

Harleys stuff is about getting YOUR NEEDS MET the way you want, and need them met.

If I am correct, he has never been one for those kind of words. He CAN LEARN to meet your needs, the way you want them met, just like the rest of us do. That's the two years I spoke about earlier.

Anyone can have an average marriage, and "get by," but I think you want a lot more. Again, it's possible to have a really good one, but it takes work. It really can be as good as you imagine it can be - I want you to know that.

I am going to wait for him to read MB's concepts and just enjoy what I do get from him for now.

If he says disrespectful things please call him on it. He can be retrained, don't let him get away with his old way of doing things.

It's good not to push, but make sure SOMETHING is happening.

If nothing happens in a few days, perhaps you could ask him to read one section, or part of a section by (two or three days out) so that you could both discus it. Please don't let it just fade away.


Need to go, keep up the good work. Sometimes it's hard to come back when I would like to, but I do care.

SS

<small>[ November 11, 2004, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I'm feeling a little anxious again today.

I finished listening to my voice activated recording from Tuesday (finally). That was H's day off. He left the house and was gone for around 5.5 to 6 hours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I checked our credit card statement online to see if I could find anything charged for that day - to get an idea of what he might have done. There was a charge for wine store purchase. THEN there was a charge at a restaurant - around 22 dollars.

I knew he went to go buy wine. I saw it when I came home. I didn't ask him what else he did that day - and he didn't volunteer the information either.

Now I know it's a good sign that he charged the restaurant bill. That means he's not hiding it, really. However, if I ask him about it when the bill finally comes in, he could always say that he went out with a buddy, when, in fact, he could have gone out with some chick. He could say anything.

I am definitely going to ask him about it, just to see what he says. I am also going to ask him about the phone bill with the strange phone # on it (that he called for an hour the day that he received my plan b letter)

I've called that number a couple of times (with my phone # blocked) but no one ever answers. I've considered paying an extra service charge to be able to do a reverse phone number look up on an unlisted #. Instead, though, like I said, I think I'll pull out the bill and ask him point blank if he called that number.

Am I overreacting over this stuff? I know I need to be checking up on him. I don't trust him yet.
Who knows, maybe my new H will surprise me with honest information - that he can prove.

I haven't taken my ADs in two days. I ran out and haven't picked up my new prescription yet. I think I'm feeling the effects. To be honest, I was thinking about stopping with them. I figured that maybe I don't need them anymore now that H and I are (sort of) recovering. Now I think that I am wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

svb,

I think it's good that you're not letting things slide when they raise a red flag for you. It's hard to do that and not come off as a control freak or an accusatory wench. If he tends to get defensive when you bring up things like this, just shift the focus back to yourself: H, when I see a bill for lunch at a nice restaurant, I feel insecure because I wonder who you would take to a nice lunch other than me. Then it gets to be about him reassuring you rather than you pointing the finger at him. If he has nothing to hide, defensiveness should dissipate (or not be there at all to begin with).

I think I'll pull out the bill and ask him point blank if he called that number.

No, ask him whose number it is. You already know he called it.

I'm feeling a little anxious again today.
I would be too, don't think you are abnormal. You want so badly to know, but you don't have all the answers yet.

I finished listening to my voice activated recording from Tuesday (finally). That was H's day off. He left the house and was gone for around 5.5 to 6 hours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am not sure where you live, but in a urban setting normal personal business (shopping, gymn, haircut) could take up the time easily. I have no idea if this would be normal for him, or not. It sounds like it is not normal - or at least you feel all the time away was not needed.

I checked our credit card statement online to see if I could find anything charged for that day - to get an idea of what he might have done. There was a charge for wine store purchase. THEN there was a charge at a restaurant - around 22 dollars.

How far away was this restaurant? Is is somewhere he would go with a friend? Do you have any idea, or, is it a place you don't know much about? Could he be meeting people there for business?


I knew he went to go buy wine. I saw it when I came home. I didn't ask him what else he did that day - and he didn't volunteer the information either.

You can ask in round about ways -
How was your day?
Did you get every thing done you wanted?
Did you get lunch OK while you were out?
Did you have any fun today while you were out?

It would be common for my W to ask me
What did you do all day?
But, I think this approach did not work well for you before.

Now I know it's a good sign that he charged the restaurant bill. That means he's not hiding it, really. However, if I ask him about it when the bill finally comes in, he could always say that he went out with a buddy. He could say anything.

Yes, he could. I recommend you don't ask DIRECTLY about things that you can't confirm in some other way. What good would it serve except to make him wary?

In other words, don't come out and say "who did you go to lunch with? If he is doing something wrong, it will set his radar off. Better to do the indirect stuff, and see how he responds. I worry - can you tell when he is not telling the truth? If he is up to something, even simple questions could set him to thinking. UNLESS - unless you are used to communicating with him all the time like that. If not, pleaset start, but about other things, not related to where he goes, and what he does.
If you aren't comfortable with this, just leave it alone, and continue to monitor what you can.

I am definitely going to ask him about it, just to see what he says. I am also going to ask him about the phone bill with the strange phone # on it (that he called for an hour the day that he received my plan b letter) I advise against it. Don't let him think you are watching that close. AS we said last spring, it just makes them hide it all the better next time.

I've called that number a couple of times (with my phone # blocked) but no one ever answers. I've considered paying an extra service charge to be able to do a reverse phone number look up on an unlisted #. Instead, though, like I said, I think I'll pull out the bill and ask him point blank if he called that number.

You already know he called it. My suggestion would bge not to ask things that won't get you any real imformation. If he lies, what would you acomplish? For instance, if he says "I don't remember if I did or not, why do you ask?"

If that happened, you would still be frustrated, and he would be wary again. If you know, and could catch him in a lie, then it would get you something, but I don't see what asking like this will get you.

Am I overreacting over this stuff? I know I need to be checking up on him. I don't trust him yet.
Who knows, maybe my new H will surprise me with honest information - that he can prove.

If he did, how would you know it was honest if he CAN'T prove it? Then both of you would be frustrated. If he is honesty working on this, it would not be good for his recovery, and for his view of you. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but am I making sense?

I haven't taken my ADs in two days. I ran out and haven't picked up my new prescription yet. I think I'm feeling the effects. To be honest, I was thinking about stopping with them. I figured that maybe I don't need them anymore now that H and I are (sort of) recovering. Now I think that I am wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I would keep taking them until you:

1. Know you are well on the way to recovery.
2. Or you are in Chicago.

You really need to be on an even keel for this stuff. Don't mess with what you know has been working.

Now, I am so sorry that you still doubt about this. It will be difficult to get through - remember your mom, and your brothers feelings about it. All they wanted to do was spare you from this doubt, and pain.

I hate to see it too - and I know that saying you have a hard time with all of it is a BIG understatement. I still trust you to do a good job of it. Please be careful, take your medicine, do the best you can, and trust God to make up the difference.

This is one of those big earth shaking, life changing events, but the best way to get through it is calm, measured, careful watching, and working every day. You can do this - trust yourself.

SS

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Turtlehead,

I want you to know that I read your thread (your update). It was really inspiring. I am glad that you posted it. Also, thanks for sticking with me through the months. I know that you have always posted to me and it means a lot.

SS,

How far away was this restaurant? Is is somewhere he would go with a friend? Do you have any idea, or, is it a place you don't know much about? Could he be meeting people there for business?

The restaurant is in Philadelphia. It's a regular restaurant- Longhorn Steakhouse. He bought wine in New Jersey. (That would mean a lot of driving and a lot of time) It is a restaurant he could have gone to with a friend. However, he hasn't discussed any friends with me in a long time. As far as I know, he doesn't have any that he hangs out with here in the Philly area. He had one that he used to hang out with a few years ago (from work), but he stopped because "he lived too far away." Then this friend "moved away" to another state. I never met him, although he called the house a couple of times and he emailed my H as well. Then, a few years ago (around 2000), H started coming home late from work, sometimes smelling like smoke. He would "act" as if he had to stay late at work, but then I confronted him about smelling like smoke. He THEN admitted that he was hanging out with a buddy from work. This buddy never called the house, nor did I ever meet him (at the time). He told me that he was hiding it from me because he said I got jealous when he hung out with friends. I told him that I didn't mind him hanging out with friends, as long as he TOLD me he was going to. Well, after that, he would tell me every time he would hang out with this friend, "Bill." He would mostly leave after 11:30pm because "Bill" got off from work at midnight. He said they would go out for a drink and talk. Likewise, he stopped hanging out with "Bill." I have since been introduced to this Bill guy at my H's job (this past year). I told H afterwards, "oh yeah, the guy you used to hang out with." Did he really hang out with Bill? I don't know.

I don't know, I never thought I gave my H a hard time about hanging out with his friends. Maybe I did, I really don't remember. (This is apparently a huge issue with us/him) Since my H has started acting so strangely this past year and I tried to talk to him about our issues "pre-plan A," one of the things that my H has mentioned (more than once) is that I never like his friends and that I don't like him hanging out with friends. This is something that I am trying to work on. That is why I included this in my plan B letter as one of my mistakes in our M. That is also why I didn't give him a hard time about him going to help his friend in Miami.

As far as I know, he could have been hanging out with a friend on all of his days off this past year at some bar, just talking, and he was afraid to tell me. I would love to really believe this one - but it doesn't explain a lot of his other behaviors. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Trust me, I am NOT some B@#$%^Y controlling W. At least I don't think so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I am actually a really easygoing person. Too easygoing! Yeah, I've made some comments to him in the past about some of his other friends. These were friends who OBVIOUSLY were using him and STOLE from him and I pointed it out to him. He would DEFEND them when I said these things. How can you say that about so and so? He is like a BROTHER to me! And then you know what? - he eventually realized the truth about so and so on his own. However he has other friends (from Chicago) that I have no problems with - like the one moving to Miami. So how can he say these things? - that I don't like ANY of his friends? Do I get jealous if he hangs out with them? Ok, maybe a little, (sometimes) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I really don't know what to think anymore. It could be true what he says about his friends, or could it be a cover or an excuse? Is it partly true? Is this just him being manipulative again? I am so confused.

OK, that's probably more about his friends than you ever wanted to know.

You can ask in round about ways - ...It would be common for my W to ask me What did you do all day? But, I think this approach did not work well for you before.

It didn't work well for me before. He would say he did "nothing." How would he react now? I don't know. I would like to start discussing these things more openly in the future - ex. -what did you do today?

I have a while to ask him about the restaurant charge. I think when the credit card bill comes in I will casually ask him about the charge. We do that all the time anyway when the bill comes in and we don't recognize, or remember some charge. Hopefully he will be positive about it. I have to wait till the beginning of Dec, though, to ask him.

As for the phone number, I think I'm going to do the same. I think I will be casually looking at the phone bill tonight and ask him, "who's number is this? I don't recognize it." I feel like I need to see his reaction. It might give me a clue to his real thoughts and behaviors. It will be a bad sign if he gets defensive about it. "Oh, I don't rememeber. I don't recognize it." I won't push it after that. But if he gets defensive, I think I will have one foot out the door again.

Do you really think it will cause that much damage if I ask him?

OK, guess who's going to the pharmacy now to pick up her meds?

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

As for the phone number, I think I'm going to do the same. I think I will be casually looking at the phone bill tonight and ask him, "who's number is this? I don't recognize it." I feel like I need to see his reaction. It might give me a clue to his real thoughts and behaviors. It will be a bad sign if he gets defensive about it. "Oh, I don't rememeber. I don't recognize it." I won't push it after that. But if he gets defensive, I think I will have one foot out the door again.

Is this the normal bill, or did you print it off the web to see what was going on? Lets see, that was quite a while ago, so it's probably the normal bill.

You are probably right about if he gets defensive.

Do you really think it will cause that much damage if I ask him?

I don't know, but lets talk about it. If he was doing something wrong, and if he is trying now - what will it look like to him?
"Hey, I am trying hard now, and she is still spying on me - there is no way this is going to work."

If he is really doing something wrong, then he wil hide it even deeper. So, only ask when it will tell you something. Examine the issue, and ask "what will I get if I ask him about this?" Or "will I learn anything new if I ask him about this?"

If you get nothing, or won't learn something VALUEABLE, then leave it alone no matter how badly you want to ask.

For instance sometimes all you might get is that he is really good at making up excuses. This is not new imformation, nor is it valueable. (because you already know it.)

Remember also, I don't know everything. Our job is to get you to think about things, and give you ideas - new ways to look at this. You are there, and it looks to me like you have reasons to doubt him again. Be careful with those clues you get from watching him.

I think it's way to early to try to blow it wide open. You can probably learn as much from living with him for a month (if you can stand it) as you can from the phone bill. He won't be able to stay nice to you if he has an A going on in the wings, he will start treating you badly again soon.

Now, as one BS said here a few years ago -
"I can turn him down bedause I am angry, but then I would be angry and deprived. If I say yes, I am just angry."

This can apply to a lot of things right now. You can enjoy his return, and take what you can get from it both emotional and physically, or you can worry. Maybe both, but you can get some of your needs for companionship, and conversation met while he is there. BTW, I am not being suggestive, but you seem to like it that he wants contact - even if it's just a toe. Enjoy that - and lets say it's real, even if we don't know for sure.

Lets not have you file for D just yet. Not in court, and not emotionally. OK?

You can learn a lot by just being around him, but it will take a few weeks. Lets see what happens.

I don't post much on weekends - but will be checking in case you have major meltdown.

Enjoy your weekend - if you have to worry, then worry, but find some good too.

SS

PS, if I had time, I would comment a lot more on some things. Just for the record, I don't think you are a "B@#$%^Y controlling W". You asked me to trust you - OK, it's a deal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

One other thing -

If he does get defensive, or if he acuses you of ckeching up on him - you need to be ready with a comeback for him.

Takola on trust


This may help - get the concepts down, and use it if you need it. You can even practice what you will say, that really helps, I am not teasing you.

Anyway, you can make it about his having to earn trust, part of what you reuquire to stay with him.
If he does come unglued for any reason, hit him with the trust speech, and let him know you are waiting for him to give you reason to trust, and he has just blown one of his chances. (by whatever happened, or his anger or whatever) Then leave him alone to think about it.

I asked H about the phone number on Friday night. I had to do it. I think I had a good opportunity to do it.

First, I received a phone bill on Friday from a particular long distance company. We are not even customers of that company. (for $2.29) My name was spelled wrong on the bill as was the street name. I called the company, and they said that we have been customers as of 2002. ??!!! While I was talking to them, my H was irate in the background. "I'm calling a lawyer!!" He kept picking up the other phone to listen in, and then he would hang up. I kept hearing the clicking. He would then say to me, "there's no one on the line!" I'd say "relax, he's looking something up." Then, as I'm talking to this guy, my husband starts yelling in the background, "make him send you a letter!!" He must have told me that about 10 times. Ok, so now they reversed the charge and are sending us a letter saying that we owe nothing and we are not customers of theirs.

So, I pulled out our old phone bill to get the phone number of our current company so I could call them to make sure that we are still customers of theirs. I thought it was a good opportunity to say, "Oh,BTW H, I saw this phone number from the calling card on the bill and I forgot to ask you about this before. Who's # is this, did you call this #?"

He got SUPER defensive. He pretty much flew off the handle. "I guess I called that number. I called a ton of numbers for work while I was away! I don't know know who's it is. Do you know how many phone #s I have? I'd have to look it up." He walked away while he was saying this. I followed him and said "It was a number in philadelphia, for an hour - you don't remember?" Him, "No!"

I have no choice now, I am DEFINITELY going to look up the owner of that number. I should be able to get a name, address, and age.

Then, as we were sitting down to dinner, I told him that I asked him only because I was concerned that it was from the calling card, and if he didn't make the call, I'd be worried that someone else was using our information to make calls. I was only checking because I was worried. He said, "OK." But he obviously made the call. If he hadn't made the call, he would have been irate about it. (see above about phone bill!)

He was then pleasant for the rest of the weekend.

Boy, I really need to stay on my ADs!

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

SS,

I wanted to reply to a previous post of yours.

If he is not a reader, he may not be able to bring himself to read it even though he may think it is a good idea. I don't know how much stock I would put in his reading, or not reading.

If nothing happens in a few days, perhaps you could ask him to read one section, or part of a section by (two or three days out) so that you could both discus it. Please don't let it just fade away.

I've been thinking about reading to him -section by section, little by little. We've done this in the past with another book, and I think he liked it.

It might be good, too, because then we can discuss it as we go along.

I think your H is not used to sharing his deepest feelings...I only get a small snapshot of things through this communication method that we use. What do you think? Has he ever been good at sharing his feelings?

You are exactly right. He does not share his feelings at all. He has never been good at sharing them. A part of me felt, or hoped, that his stories on his first night back were his ways of telling me his feelings. I mostly have to rely on his actions.

I was a little (ok a lot) bummed out about this on Friday. I was not feeling very positive about us. I was thinking that we might never have the M that I want, where we can openly share all of our thoughts and feelings. I would love to know what his feelings were over the past year -- and what they are now -- but I doubt he will ever share them with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

About his job -
Having his travel will not be good for your marriage. If this is going to happen, you will need lots of help to remain married to him. I say this because recovery takes time as it is, but it is so much more difficult when one of the parties is not there.

You already know all the reasons - maybe Jen will have suggestions for what to do about this.

Yeah, I've thought a lot about this. Jennifer doesn't know about his potential future travelling, but she made a comment about his current schedule - where we have different days off. She said that she doesn't like it and that it has to change. I can imagine what she'd say about him being away 6 weeks at a time!

I'm starting to worry a little about his desire to travel. If he will be away 6 weeks at a time, he probably feels that it would be more convenient to stay married to me so that he will have someone at home to take care of everything while he's away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm starting to wonder if that's the only reason he wants to "work on" our M.

Again, time will tell for sure. I hope, as we go through the MB concepts, I will have an opportunity to bring up the travelling - that it's not going to be good for our M. If he still insists on going, then mmmmmmmmm that's not a good sign.

Not made of money - hmmm, you sound like your parents now.I'm teasing, I'm teasing, don't take it personal.

Are you kidding? Don't take it personal? I busted out laughing when I read that! But remember, my parents wouldn't ever have said that to me - my mom thinks I'm perfect.

Men and women often react to stress differently. she would understand him well, having lived with him for a long time. I wonder if she would talk to you about HIM, and give you pointers. Are you good friends with her?

I'm sure she would talk to me about him. We've done it before. I feel like we're pretty good friends. She has told me in the past - a long time ago, that I could always call her or write to her about H. (Like I've mentioned before somewhere, she KNOWS how difficult my H can be) I don't talk to her very often, though, and with all that my H has told her, I'd feel a little uncomfortable. Maybe at some point I will do this. I've been thinking about writing her a letter, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I would also hate to put her in the middle of this. Also, I don't know if my H would like the idea if he found out.

If he says disrespectful things please call him on it. He can be retrained, don't let him get away with his old way of doing things.

I am trying to do this. He made a comment about my trip to Chicago. (Did I mention I'm going to Chicago for Thanksgiving? I am going by myself. H and I already discussed this. He is OK with it because he has to work all weekend anyway. Plus he says he could care less about Thanksgiving) One of my flights leaves at 6:30 in the morning. He made it obvious that it was a stupid idea. Later on, I told him that it bothered me what he said. I didn't think it was a stupid idea. It doesn't bother me to leave that early, and I thought it was a good idea. I saved a ton of $$$ by taking that flight. He said, "ok, but I wouldn't do it." "Yeah, well, that's you - I am not you."

I should have said something about my conversation with the phone company -- the way he would constantly pick up the phone and hang up, and scream in the background. Grrrr! I was too focused on other things, though. Like getting the problem straightened out, and finding out about that phone #.

I'm working on this, though.

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>