A couple of things come to mind.

First, recovery works better if both can agree to a plan. I am not sure what form your talks with him have been like. I believe from past history that you are careful in the way you talk to him. Sometimes I wonder if it would be good to bring things to conflict - not find a soft way to talk.

Then if/when he gets angry, you can point it out to him, and ask point blank "why would I want to stay with someone that treats me like this? I would like to work on our marriage, I am willing to work on my problems, but you need to be willing to work on yours. If you are not, we won't be married for very much longer. I am not going back to how it was before - "

In other words, continue to put him on notice every time he uses anger or DJ's to try to get his way. Notice I say "try to get his way." I hope you don't let him do things that you don't agree with. That is another way to have discussions. By subject when that subject comes up. I think reading to him is a good idea - it's even better than reading separatly, because you can discuss as you read.

Second - you have a great sense of humor - you made me laugh too.

Another poster told me that they are worried that your H is just playing for time. On the surface it is hard to tell. He did say and do lots of the right things when he came back, but a person usually doesn't get angry if asked about a phone number unless they have something to hide. The thanksgiving weekend talk doesn't look promising either. I would hate for my W to be away from me during a holiday, even if I had to work. I might be happy to let her visit her Mom, but I would make sure she knew I would miss her. I am not seeing that kind of discussion.


I have noticed that over time as I concentrate on one person, other posters tend to thin out - not sure if they think I do a good job, and they don't need to help, or a bad job, and they can't fix it anyway, but I wish others would continue to post to you. Maybe I need a haircut?

You have another week down now - how are you, what are you thinking?

When you go home, it will be a good chance to talk to you mom about what you are doing to save your marriage, and why you are doing it. The bottom line is that unless you know you have done everything you can, it would always bother you. Your mom needs to know that. I bet she hugs you and tells you she loves you.

Hope you are doing well, or better.

SS

Well, I checked that phone # that H called. I got the name and address of some guy. Some guy that lives in the city. I don't recognize the name. It's someone that H has never mentioned. A round trip to this address would be approximately the right mileage that I've been finding on H's car. Is this where H has been going? I don't know.

I heard a conversation with H's sister last Thursday. I heard couple of disturbing things. First, he told her that I printed out some M information to read and put it in a binder with dividers, etc. He was laughing as he told her this. I don't know if it was because he thought it was stupid, or cute. Probably the former, though.

The binder has moved since then. I don't know if he actually read any of it, though. I did ask him at one point if he wanted me to read it to him and he said "no."

Then he told her that he thought I was worried about what he was planning on doing on his day off. He is still making me out to be the jealous wife. On Wednesday night, H did all of his laundry and started to iron. I asked him why he was doing it then instead of on his day off. (I was worried about what he was planning.) He told his sister that he "played stupid" and told me that he just wanted to relax on his day off. He told her that he was going to call me and ask me out to lunch. He said, "she'll figure it out then." He did call me, but I had a lunch meeting and couldn't make it.

According to my recording, he did go somewhere anyway on Thursday afternoon. He came home and did laundry (after he had done all of his laundry the night before) and showered before I got home. I didn't check his miles, though.

Yeah, not very good signs, right? He is still very sweet and affectionate, though, much more so than before plan B.

I am also pointing out to him most every time he says something negative to me. He is reacting pretty well to it.

I'm still not sure what to think. Maybe I am just a jealous wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

SS, I think I can tell you why posters have thinned out.

1. My posts are very looonnnng. As much as I try, I can't shorten them.

2. I think maybe most people are at a loss on what else to tell me. Really, what left is there to say? I did plan A, did plan B, and consulted with Jennifer - who told me to go back to plan A and introduce H to the MB concepts, and monitor H's actions. She said I can always go back to plan B later.

I'm sure at this point I am looking for moral support, a place to vent, and objective points of view. I worry that I come across as throwing myself a pity party, though. I hope not. I'm sure that would also scare many people away.

I thank you for your support, SS. I think you do a great job. But I can see where you might feel pressured to always reply to me. Please know that you don't have to, ok? I would miss your insight, advice, etc., but I would survive. And you know what? I will probably keep posting even if no one ever replies to me! It's therapeutic in itself!

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

Svb,

First of all: {{{mb hugz}}} 2 U! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now onto that disrespectful H of yours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I would make some comments around him to head off his need to make you look bad to others. Remember he can make those comments and they could boomerang when others tell him he is being stupid for not appreciating you.

Here are a couple of examples:

Ex1:

He goes to his sister to gossip and twist something you said or did or didn't do. Before he does this, beat him to the punch. If you suspect he may go tattle tailing, ask him... 'you gonna twist this account and run to your sister?' First warn your SIL or support group of his tactic. If they are part of your support group, they can head off his stupid remarks and you have now disarmed, the dork.

Ex2:
BS: Hmmm....Let me see, SIL wanted to know if you were treating me nicely this past week..... I told here I would make a list...... geeze, this paper has been blank for ### days!


L.

Thanks Orchid!

I haven't talked to SIL at all yet about any of this. I've been dying to tell her MY side of the story so she can EXACTLY see what H is trying to do. She already knows that H has a temper and can be mean. She has already suggested to H that he see an IC (for being so uptight). I don't think she can completely discount what I say.

I'm getting more courage to do this.

Hi !
You sound good - I will comment on that later.

Well, I checked that phone # that H called. I got the name and address of some guy. Some guy that lives in the city. I don't recognize the name. It's someone that H has never mentioned. A round trip to this address would be approximately the right mileage that I've been finding on H's car. Is this where H has been going? I don't know.

There could be other things going on. I have no idea what - and it would probalby be dumb for me to speculate, but it could be some other activity that H doesn't want you to know about. However, there are still the condoms/wrappers - that was never explained at all.

I heard a conversation with H's sister last Thursday. I heard couple of disturbing things. First, he told her that I printed out some M information to read and put it in a binder with dividers, etc. He was laughing as he told her this. I don't know if it was because he thought it was stupid, or cute. Probably the former, though.

You know him, his mannerisims, his voice tones, his laugh. You probably have an idea of why he was laughing. Much more than we could have from reading your words here. This part makes me sad.

The binder has moved since then. I don't know if he actually read any of it, though. I did ask him at one point if he wanted me to read it to him and he said "no."

As we said before he returned, he can't keep acting forever (if he IS acting) and things will come out. If he doesn't want to learn about making your marriage better, that would indicate that your earlier fears were well founded.

I don't know of anyone - ANYONE - that loves their spouse, and wants to stay married that wouldn't work on it if it was brought to their attention that there were problems. Some would balk at counseling, some would talk a lot about it first, but I can't think of anyone that would ignore a plan B and just go back to "same old thing." I believe this is an indicator. Now, Jen is the expert with this, she will have better advice - this is my opinion.


Then he told her that he thought I was worried about what he was planning on doing on his day off. He is still making me out to be the jealous wife. On Wednesday night, H did all of his laundry and started to iron. I asked him why he was doing it then instead of on his day off. (I was worried about what he was planning.) He told his sister that he "played stupid" and told me that he just wanted to relax on his day off. He told her that he was going to call me and ask me out to lunch. He said, "she'll figure it out then." He did call me, but I had a lunch meeting and couldn't make it.

Ok, this is why many asked you to change the way you did things last spring. You tend to brodcast your fears to him, and if he is doing something wrong, he knows to be more careful. I know you don't want to do it this way, without being there, it's hard to tell you how to do it differently, and also, it is hard to change some things about ourselves. What it means, is that you care - that part is good, really good, but the effect - what he gets from it is not good. He doesn't get the part about you working on the marriage, he only gets that you don't trust him.

According to my recording, he did go somewhere anyway on Thursday afternoon. He came home and did laundry (after he had done all of his laundry the night before) and showered before I got home. I didn't check his miles, though.

Yeah, not very good signs, right? He is still very sweet and affectionate, though, much more so than before plan B.

His keeping things a secret from you, or not telling you when you ask is just plain wrong. If you were all over him for nothing, I can see some guys doing it on purpose just to tease you. I have a friend that would do that.

I don't see you doing things to that degree - and I see other things in his past that show you have reason to be worried, so I don't think this is a real reason. I wish you had checked his miles - but if he KNEW you were watching him, maybe it's just as well.

I think you should check the miles before you leave for Thanksgiving, and see what you get upon your return.

What do you do when someone you love mistrusts you? You do all that you can to bring back trust. He is not doing that at all. That is a big strike against him. Not only won't he help, he lies about whatever does go on. If he isn't willing to open his life to you, what do you really have? I mean, this is the guy you are married to, and he treats you like a stranger. Think about that for a minute.

I am also pointing out to him most every time he says something negative to me. He is reacting pretty well to it.

It sounds like you are doing it in a manner that he accepts then. I was not good at this part - and I had to read HNHN, and Love Busters more than once and retrain myself to do it in verbaly pleasing ways. I would bet you are better at it than I was (at first), most Gals are.

I'm still not sure what to think. Maybe I am just a jealous wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

There is no doubt in my mind that you are a jealous wife. However, you are not JUST a jealous wife. You have reasons for not trusting him. In this case, jealous is not a bad thing.

The only reasons I can think of for driving the miles he does and keeping it secret have to do with things like:
Crime
Affairs
Gambling
Drugs
other addictions
So, you have reason to worry.


Lets see, around birthdays, Christmas, wedding anniverseries, and Valentines day, it CAN have to do with secrets that are GOOD secrets - but that doesn't fit his pattern.

SS, I think I can tell you why posters have thinned out.

1. My posts are very looonnnng. As much as I try, I can't shorten them.

2. I think maybe most people are at a loss on what else to tell me. Really, what left is there to say? I did plan A, did plan B, and consulted with Jennifer - who told me to go back to plan A and introduce H to the MB concepts, and monitor H's actions. She said I can always go back to plan B later.

There is still a lot left to say - you still need support, and other voices can help you understand what is going on. As far as long posts - I have never felt your posts were long, and I enjoy reading what you write - I expect it is the same for anyone else here, but of course, this is just my opinion. And of course, as I reflect on it, with you being perfect and all, I am SURE no one thinks your posts are too long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm sure at this point I am looking for moral support, a place to vent, and objective points of view. I worry that I come across as throwing myself a pity party, though. I hope not. I'm sure that would also scare many people away.

I have never seen that in your posts. I see sadness sometimes, and hurt, and sometimes even a little fear, but I have never seen you throw a pity party. I also see bravery, courage, and endurance.

I know you try not to let the sadness come through - I sense that when I read, but it is sometimes there between the lines. I do feel the courage in your words. You don't know for sure what will happen, but you are doing all that you can. That is noble, and it is right, and I hope God blesses you for it. I am sure he will.

I don't know how many close friends you have where you are, and I can't remember you telling us about any, so I am doubly impressed that you maintain such a upbeat attitude in your posts even though you sometimes feel lonely, and doubtful. That is courage, and endurance, and you know I am telling the truth.

I thank you for your support, SS. I think you do a great job. But I can see where you might feel pressured to always reply to me. Please know that you don't have to, ok? I would miss your insight, advice, etc., but I would survive. And you know what? I will probably keep posting even if no one ever replies to me! It's therapeutic in itself!

You can't get rid of me that easily. (insert laughter)

I do feel some preasure to post - but it is an internal thing. I think this might explain it best. Luke 22:32

I am sure there are many reasons I post on MB, but one of them is that I want people to know that someone cares about them.

It is not a generic thing, I care about you personally, and want to see you succeed. Perhaps we will never meet this side of Heaven, but someday we will, and I will thank you for your example. Your very good example.

Of course, I have my own marriage, job, and family to look after, and I put them first. There are times when I would like to post, and I am not able to, which bothers me, but I can only do what I can do. Last week I was not feeling well, and I didn't do many posts at all, but I'll always do the best I can.

Sometimes, when things are not going well, there is much doubt, and our fears begin to take over our thoughts, we come to MB for help. I don't ever want you to come to MB and not get what you are looking for.

Now, after all that, I enjoy posting, and getting to know people. You have a wonderful personality, a good sense of humor, and you are smart and a hard worker. I hope your H doesn't blow it, he would look a long time before he would find again what he has in you.

Here's to happiness along the way. I hope you find things to brighten your days as you go along.

Smile, it's good for your face.

SS

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS, (warning: shocking info. listed below -
possibly opening a can of worms)

I'm sorry to hear that you weren't feeling well last week. I hope it wasn't serious and I hope you are feeling better.

You said some very nice things about me in your last post. Thank you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And about all of those things that you said -- my mom thinks so too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do feel some preasure to post - but it is an internal thing. I think this might explain it best. Luke 22:32

I am sure there are many reasons I post on MB, but one of them is that I want people to know that someone cares about them.

We are all lucky on this message board to have you posting here.

There could be other things going on. I have no idea what - and it would probalby be dumb for me to speculate, but it could be some other activity that H doesn't want you to know about. However, there are still the condoms/wrappers - that was never explained at all.

You don't want to know what I've been speculating. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It would involve the condoms/wrappers, too. I'll give you a hint, though:

H is anal about his appearance.
H is better at decorating than I am.
H has no interest whatsoever in sports.

I know none of these things necessarily mean anything at all, but...
I can't help but wonder.

I'm also holding back a certain other piece of evidence that I've found. You talk about courage, but I haven't even been able to mention it here.
(Please don't think any less of me) It's pretty dreadful (to me), and kind of embarrassing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

OK, OK, I'll tell you - you've twisted my arm.

(whispering) I caught my H looking at gay porn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I found it months ago after I learned to check our computer's history. I confronted him about it -- I told him that I knew what he looked at (not how I knew) and I asked him outright if he was gay. He said, "NO!" He said he was just curious. I was very calm about it (tried to make it safe for him) and told him that I would love him no matter what he told me, but I still got a "no!" In my mind, though, I just can't let it go.

I bet you weren't expecting that, were you?
If I don't seem too distraught about it, please remember that I'm on Lexapro and I've had this on my mind for a few months now. It's as if nothing fazes me anymore. (pretty sad way to be) I haven't told my family or friends about this. Most of the time I keep shoving it out of my head - but it comes back every once in a while. If you think about it, it explains a lot. However, I keep thinking to myself that it can't be because of our SF pattern in the past is no indication (unless he's bi).

Anyway, I guess I've been trying to separate the issues.


What do you do when someone you love mistrusts you? You do all that you can to bring back trust. He is not doing that at all.

Yeah, he is not doing that because it is MY problem that I mistrust him, not HIS. (in his mind) Even though he KNOWS that he keeps secrets from and and he KNOWS that I KNOW that he keeps secrets from me! He has never admitted to any wrongdoing.

I think you should check the miles before you leave for Thanksgiving, and see what you get upon your return.

40,576 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

H and I had a really good night last night. Although he did grumble a little about me always leaving everything till the last minute (packing, etc.)

I leave after work for the airport. I don't think I'll be able to get to MB at all while I'm away. I'm going to try, though.

Have a great Thanksgiving.

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I just got home from my Thanksgiving trip. I had a great weekend with my family.

I was hoping that my H would be waiting for me with open arms. Nope. He's in bed -- still sleeping. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am really disappointed right now. I feel like throwing in the towel. I only talked to my H once this weekend. That's only because I called him on Friday. I waited on Thursday to see if he would call to say "Happy Thanksgiving" to me and my family. He was off all day. The call never came. I was determined not to call him. I'm sure he would have told his sister that I only called to check up on him anyway.

I know he was out and about.

I think you should check the miles before you leave for Thanksgiving, and see what you get upon your return.

40,576

I just checked the miles on his car on my return.

40,758 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

That's 182 miles! He was only off from work on Thursday. And on the days that he worked (Wed, Fri, and Sat - 12pm to 11pm each day) -- he only works 3 miles away!

I'm done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> He's not sincere about working on our M and nothing is going to change. I was really hopeful for a while, though. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I can't go through this anymore.

I think I'm going to ask him today how far he's gotten in reading Harley's material. I betcha he's going to hem and haw about it -- because he hasn't read any of it.

I've just installed spyware on the computer, too, because I've noticed that since H has been back home, he's been signing into his other AOL account every other day or so. When we first signed up with AOL (in 98) We created a joint account and an individual account for each of us. We gave each other our passwords. Since then, we have only used our joint account. I've forgotten his password, and I'm sure he's forgotten mine.

It's probably a waste of time at this point. Why bother?

I'm tempted to go to work tomorrow and turn in my two weeks notice. I can then pack up all my stuff and drive out to Chicago to start my life over - for the new year.

WHEW. I got it all out. But I don't feel any better. I brought this all upon myself for letting him come back home.

Dear svb -

Welcome back. Welcome home. I hope the visit with your family did you good. It's important to keep contact with your family when you are going through something like this. I hope you left with lots of hugs to warm your heart. I'm sorry you're unhappy with the way your H handled your being away, but that doesn't come as a big surprise.

I am concerned about you putting the spy software on the computer - mostly because I am betting that what you see will help explain his behaviour. I did not need to put software on our computer when H was involved in EA2 - he wasn't computer savvy enough to erase the history, and I was able to read his e-mails that way. However, I have since then, many times wished I could - and still sort of wonder whether I should. So far, I have not done so. But when I was spying on his e-mail account, it was the most difficult thing I ever had to do, and was excruciating to read their messages to each other. I felt possessed day in and day out to go to the computer and see what I would find out next to the point where I felt sick with fear. I entered a period in my life where it ruled my day. You have to be prepared in your own mind to handle whatever it is you find out.

I am concerned that you are still too willing to confront him instantly as soon as you find something which makes you suspicious. The spyware on the computer may turn up something even more unpleasant - confirmation of some kind or another. So try to talk yourself through your course of action depending on what you might find out. You may find yourself feeling very emotional and you could "blow your cover".

I found it very hurtful to read the things he was saying about me to his friends, and also to find out just how many friends he was actually talking to. It's hard to learn those things and then stay quiet about it. But you will NEED to stay in control of yourself, and build up your file of evidence. If you do end up divorcing, you want to know the real reason why.

I have always been concerned that he is doing something which you haven't been able to fully explain - the condoms, the miles, the washing clothes. Something is not quite right here.

As bad as this might turn out to be, it may get you closer to the truth. When you went to plan B before, I was always concerned that you still had no real answers as to whether or not he was involved in an affair - and he was perfectly willing to let you end the marriage and then carry on with his life, leaving you to wonder what really happened there. Maybe he IS playing with the idea of being gay - the phone call you traced went to a guy's house, as I recall - any chance you can find out who that number belongs to? But if that IS the case, you NEED to know - if he is having sex with men, he could be jeopardizing your health as well as his own.

I know you don't want to "go there", and I think you were very brave to voice your concern here. But you need to know. You have a right to know WHO you are married to.

Please be careful and don't confront him right away about anything you find out.

I think you are a lovely person. Do you have any friends you can confide in? Friends nearby who can support you through a crisis? I think it would be a good idea to work on your support network.

Take care,
LIR

svb,

re: the gay sites. I guessed it before you even said anything.

I would go ahead and spy. Just be wise as a snake and innocent as a dove. Just because you know, or find out info does NOT mean you have to share it.

If and when you find out anything, you do not have to tell H what you know. You have been pretty good at stepping back from all of this and doing what is best. Continue on in this. And don't feel bad. You are his wife and have a right to know whatever you feel you need to know.

Use the information to your advantage. Who knows what is up with all those miles on the car? I think you might find out soon enough. Just don't react and LB.

Sorry your H didn't call on Thanksgiving. I don't understand why you two can't spend this holiday together, it is so important that vacations, holiday's be spent together as a couple. Is there anything you can do to rectify this? Believe me, I know the consequences of not spending these times together.

Prayin for ya

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thank you, LIR and Miss M for your replies. I calmed down very much after I posted. By the time my H woke up, I was fine and dandy. You'll be happy to know that I didn't LB all over the place.

H gave me a long hug when he saw me. He asked me a lot about my weekend. I asked him, too, if he did anything special on Thanksgiving or over the weekend. I hope he didn't take it as if I was checking up on him -- but in normal relationships, nothing is wrong with asking these questions, right? He just tilted his head to the side and shrugged and made a face as if to say, "not really," but he didn't say a word. I didn't push it. I did tell him that I felt a little disappointed that he didn't call us to say, "happy thanksgiving." Again, he didn't say anything.

LIR,

I am concerned that you are still too willing to confront him instantly as soon as you find something which makes you suspicious. The spyware on the computer may turn up something even more unpleasant - confirmation of some kind or another. So try to talk yourself through your course of action depending on what you might find out. You may find yourself feeling very emotional and you could "blow your cover".

I am seriously, seriously, seriously hoping that I find some sort of confirmation on the computer. I know that it may be difficult to read some of his e-mails, but I imagine it will be like hearing some of his conversations with his sister. I've heard some difficult ones. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Maybe he IS playing with the idea of being gay - the phone call you traced went to a guy's house, as I recall - any chance you can find out who that number belongs to?

I now have the name, address, and phone number of this fellow. I'm curious to drive by and see where this is. It's an apartment or condo address in the city. I'm not sure what other kind of info I can get on this guy. Any suggestions?

Do you have any friends you can confide in? Friends nearby who can support you through a crisis?

I do have one friend here that I confide in, about everything. She has kindly offered help, a place to stay, etc., if I need it. I am blessed to have her.

My friends and family back at home know about my current dilemma, but not about all of my fears. I don't know if I can tell them about the computer evidence that I've found. I guess I want to be sure, first.

Miss M,

re: the gay sites. I guessed it before you even said anything.

Just out of curiosity, what gave it away for you? His behavior? His attitude about his friends? His need for privacy? A combination of different things? What made you go "hmmmmm?" I think it might be helpful for me to know.

Sorry your H didn't call on Thanksgiving. I don't understand why you two can't spend this holiday together, it is so important that vacations, holiday's be spent together as a couple. Is there anything you can do to rectify this?

It's partly because he has to work most holidays, and partly because our families are so far away. We've had to compromise about which holidays we'd be spending together, and which apart. I am hoping that if we move back to Chicago together, we wouldn't have to worry about spending long weekends apart.

I am going to continue to spy. I will do my best not to confront him with anything new.

H is off from work today, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

Dear svb -

I'm glad to hear that you have calmed down now - and I did think that you will probably be able to keep your cool, since you have been "listening in" for quite some time now. It's just that once you find something, you do tend to not be able to sit with it for very long. I'm dreading what you might find on the computer, but like Miss M, I also think it is necessary and you have a right to know what it is he is keeping secret from you.

I don't know how to go about finding out more about someone, since you have the info on the owner of the phone number. Have you google searched him? Have you google-searched your husband's name for that matter - sometimes people post on blogs and you would be surprised how many people end up on other people's personal websites. I think people on this forum have mentioned paying for an investigator to provide information once they know the person's name, residence and phone no.

About the Thanksgiving call. We have friends who live in another country - the H is a native of that country, and they don't celebrate Thanksgiving there. Last year, the H had to visit us over Thanksgiving week, for business and he stayed with us. In the UK, I find it hard to celebrate Thanksgiving because Thursday is not a holiday - logistically it is too difficult, so last year, we did not celebrate Thanksgiving. (This year we did arrange something with friends for the Friday). Anyway - I knew this friend's wife was home alone, and that she doesn't have any family alive any more. I thought her H should call her, and I suggested it to him in a nice way. He just said - "Why?" and laughed - it was not important to him - just any other day - he is not American. I felt uncomfortable because I didn't want to make him feel guilty by calling her myself when he had just brushed me off. It would have seemed like a snub to him. So I didn't call her, and I still feel guilty that I didn't. He does love his wife, he just didn't think it was important. Clueless. This year they came to visit and I found out that she was indeed hurt and feeling very lonely and angry that he hadn't seen the importance of calling her, when he should have known it was important to her and made the effort. So I think maybe - your H is from Argentina? - maybe because he is not American, he doesn't feel the same sense of the importance of the day....just a thought.

Take care,
LIR

Dear svb -

I'm glad to hear that you have calmed down now - and I did think that you will probably be able to keep your cool, since you have been "listening in" for quite some time now. It's just that once you find something, you do tend to not be able to sit with it for very long. I'm dreading what you might find on the computer, but like Miss M, I also think it is necessary and you have a right to know what it is he is keeping secret from you.

I don't know how to go about finding out more about someone, since you have the info on the owner of the phone number. Have you google searched him? Have you google-searched your husband's name for that matter - sometimes people post on blogs and you would be surprised how many people end up on other people's personal websites. I think people on this forum have mentioned paying for an investigator to provide information once they know the person's name, residence and phone no.

About the Thanksgiving call. We have friends who live in another country - the H is a native of that country, and they don't celebrate Thanksgiving there. Last year, the H had to visit us over Thanksgiving week, for business and he stayed with us. In the UK, I find it hard to celebrate Thanksgiving because Thursday is not a holiday - logistically it is too difficult, so last year, we did not celebrate Thanksgiving. (This year we did arrange something with friends for the Friday). Anyway - I knew this friend's wife was home alone, and that she doesn't have any family alive any more. I thought her H should call her, and I suggested it to him in a nice way. He just said - "Why?" and laughed - it was not important to him - just any other day - he is not American. I felt uncomfortable because I didn't want to make him feel guilty by calling her myself when he had just brushed me off. It would have seemed like a snub to him. So I didn't call her, and I still feel guilty that I didn't. He does love his wife, he just didn't think it was important. Clueless. This year they came to visit and I found out that she was indeed hurt and feeling very lonely and angry that he hadn't seen the importance of calling her, when he should have known it was important to her and made the effort. So I think maybe - your H is from Argentina? - maybe because he is not American, he doesn't feel the same sense of the importance of the day....just a thought.

Also - about the computer - be careful to cover your own tracks on the computer. If your H starts trying to cover his own tracks on the computer by deleting websites he has visited, then he will be able to track your computer use and computer history, as well. You don't want him to find your postings here. Every website you visit leaves cookies on your computer - you can find your cookie file and look at what's in it, as well - sex sites leave lots of cookies. MarriageBuilders deposits cookies, and that's what allows you to stay logged in, unless you delete them after you have visited MB.

Take care,
LIR

hey SVB... I beleive in truth above all. I think I would have reacted the same way. How are you? I've been so busy, I didn't get time to read much, but know that I always check on you.. even when I do not post.. I read.. I'm alurker....

well.. I am glad you are on your way to the truth.. and I think his sister knows that he is bi or gay... and from what I can tell...yeah...HE is. He might not be willing to talk about it, but how do you feel about it?

uhmm big hugs*

You have such good help - I am so happy to see it.

As usual, I have lots to say, but no time. I am not so worried about you, but I think it would be good to recap what we know, and also what we don't know.
(I'll be back later to talk about it.)

Glad you had a good holiday, I would like to know if you talked to your family about your marriage, and if so, what you told them, and what they said to you.


SS

I haven't found any more information on my H.

He was off from work on Monday, but he didn't go anywhere. I've been checking the computer, but I haven't found anything there, either. He keeps looking up airfares from Buenos Aires to Cancun, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> When does he plan on telling me he wants to pay for his niece's honeymoon? I don't think that it's something he can hide from me.

I haven't heard him talk to his sister about our relationship, either.

LIR,

I've done a google search on my H and the other name. I haven't found anything.

Regarding my H's attitude towards Thanksgiving, you are correct. He doesn't care about Thanksgiving at all. That is why he didn't care that I left him alone for the holiday. I wonder maybe if I should shrug off that he didn't call.

Also, about covering my tracks on the computer, I clear out the computer's history when I sign off-line. I also delete the files and cookies. Even if I didn't do that, I'm pretty sure that my H doesn't know how to check the computer's history.
--much to my advantage.

Harudah,

I beleive in truth above all

You said it sister.

and I think his sister knows that he is bi or gay...

I think she could probably suspect it, but I kind of doubt that she knows for sure. He never mentioned anything to her about the time that I asked him if he were gay or bi -- yet he tells her that I accuse him of having an affair with another woman. If he is, then I think he's hiding it from her, too.

How do I feel about it? I really hope it's not true. I would be angry to say the LEAST.
I don't think I can even begin to explain how I feel.

SS,

I did talk to my mother and my brother - separately. I told them both that I want to be sure that I've done everything that I can before I give up on my M - especially since my H said that he's willing to work on our M. My brother didn't say much of anything. My mother understands and says that it's up to me - and she will support me -- but she doesn't think that there's much to save or that my H is working on anything -- particularly since he didn't even call all weekend. My brother even asked me if H had called. I said, "uh, no." I was embarrassed, because I know exactly how it looks. I feel like I have to make excuses - "well, he's busy working this weekend," etc., etc.

I have had the post window sitting open for about an hour, but keep getting interrupted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

My W is out of town tonight, so maybe I'll be able to spend some time with you after work.

That doesn't sound quite right - but everyone that knows me, knows what I mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway, usually, Friday night is date night, but since she is gone, I will probably get some time to post.

That's better, isn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


I hope to be able to do the post I was going to do ............last Friday.

I ought to come up with a witty saying to make me look better.

"I might be slow, but I'm old. "

No, that doesn't help, besides, I'm not that old.

"I might be dumb, but I'm not stupid......"

Not quite what I had in mind.

"Happy are those that dream dreams, and are willing to pay the price to make them come true."

That's a little better. Maybe we can discuss it later on.

All the best, and keep smiling.

SS

Hi SVB1,
SS laughs to himself, as he wonders just what SVB1 means. Some of them I can figure out, some I can't. Not sure if this one is initials, or represents something from a memory.

Now, it is late here, but I have time. I don't have to do anything tomorrow but make sure the house is clean, and take the twins (daughters 11) Christmas shopping for their brothers. We might even see an afternoon movie if we have the time. So, being late, sometimes the tone of my posts change a little. I usually tell really bad jokes, and I sometimes let more of my personality and random thoughts through. Hope it doesn't bother you. Oh, just a minute, I have a half a candy bar left, I may as well get it and finish it off. Lindt - Swiss chocolate and whole hazelnuts - not too bad - and where were we?


From before you left for thanksgiving -

H and I had a really good night last night. Although he did grumble a little about me always leaving everything till the last minute (packing, etc.)

You know we don't know everything - not even close. It's hard to "see" everything from a few words across the net. (LIR is really good at it, I am learning.)

I was wondering what a really good night was in your mind. I have my own ideas, (for me personally) and they often involve physical intimacy. From things you have said I would guess he talked to you more, and was for the most part kind, and non judgmental. Please tell me what he did that made you happy - mostly I interested in how he treated you emotionally - and why you liked that evening. Perhaps by now you don't remember details. I wanted to do this post on Thanksgiving, but that didn't work at all. The next day my Dad went in the hospital, and had problems, and I never did get back all this last week, for which I am sorry.

Just so you know, I want to know if those happy times can be reproduced - if you can understand what was good about that evening, and can communicate it to him, it can happen again and again.


From after you got home:

I just got home from my Thanksgiving trip. I had a great weekend with my family.

I was really glad to read this - really glad. Wish it could have lasted longer in your heart before the let down.

I was hoping that my H would be waiting for me with open arms. Nope. He's in bed -- still sleeping.

Hey, this Lindt chocolate is really good - where's my water glass?

Oh............. sorry.

Not sure what time you got home. I tend to guard my sleep carefully. I find if I get run down, it is very difficult to recover. If I get plenty of sleep most nights, I can perform much better. Of course, one wonders. Was he up late looking at shocking stuff on the web? I am trying to put my self in your shoes, and see some of your concerns. If it was noon when you got back, it would be really bad that he wasn't up to greet you. At 3 am, I would probably be sleeping, but at 7 or 8 I would be waiting with open arms. LIR and I have discussed how differently Men, and Women can look at some things like this. Did you ever say anything to him? Or just let it go?


I am really disappointed right now. I feel like throwing in the towel. I only talked to my H once this weekend. That's only because I called him on Friday. I waited on Thursday to see if he would call to say "Happy Thanksgiving" to me and my family. He was off all day. The call never came. I was determined not to call him. I'm sure he would have told his sister that I only called to check up on him anyway.

This could be because he doesn't care, or because he is different than you. Once, I figured no news is good news. I was like him, and never called. Thought that if I didn't hear from W, it was because she was OK. Thought if I was OK, there was no need to talk to her.
Since I have learned about emotional needs, I call often, and I find it is enjoyable for both of us. It was a learned response for me though - thought you might find that interesting.

What was the Friday call about? Just to say HI? How did it go?


I know he was out and about.

.............182 miles! He was only off from work on Thursday. And on the days that he worked (Wed, Fri, and Sat - 12pm to 11pm each day) -- he only works 3 miles away!

That's one of the things we do know for sure. He leads a secret life, and won't tell you about it. For me, that is grounds for D all by itself. There are other mistresses besides women - none of them healthy for marriages.

I'm done. He's not sincere about working on our M and nothing is going to change. I was really hopeful for a while, though.
I can't go through this anymore.

I suppose this means I can stop, and just ask you when the D will be final - but somehow, I feel compelled to go on. Stop me if you have retained a lawyer already.

Now, I am gently teasing, but remember to only make these kinds of decisions after you have the same feelings consistently for weeks. Gently teasing, but your feelings are important, and I am not trying to say they are not valid. Sorry you have to go thorough such turmoil.

I think I'm going to ask him today how far he's gotten in reading Harley's material. I betcha he's going to hem and haw about it -- because he hasn't read any of it.

He hasn't read any, and won't let you read it to him. He won't discuss it - correct?


I've just installed spyware on the computer, too, because I've noticed that since H has been back home, he's been signing into his other AOL account every other day or so. When we first signed up with AOL (in 98) We created a joint account and an individual account for each of us. We gave each other our passwords. Since then, we have only used our joint account. I've forgotten his password, and I'm sure he's forgotten mine.

It's probably a waste of time at this point. Why bother?


It's part of your quest to know the truth. I have to think it will help you know that whatever decision you come to will be correct. I think it's a good thing.

I'm tempted to go to work tomorrow and turn in my two weeks notice. I can then pack up all my stuff and drive out to Chicago to start my life over - for the new year.

Hey, will you bring me another one of these Lindt candy bars on your way to Chicago? I finished this one off already.
See, bad jokes, and I do it at the wrong time, when I should be serious. I should go to bed, but once I get going with the twins tomorrow, I'll never get back on MB.

WHEW. I got it all out. But I don't feel any better. I brought this all upon myself for letting him come back home.

No, you didn't bring any of this on your self. You still have to do all that you can, and you understand that, but it's hard some days. I haven't seen any thing about you actually GIVING two weeks notice, so I should go on?
Oh, what the heck, I'll go on.

He was off from work on Monday, but he didn't go anywhere. I've been checking the computer, but I haven't found anything there, either. He keeps looking up airfares from Buenos Aires to Cancun, though. When does he plan on telling me he wants to pay for his niece's honeymoon? I don't think that it's something he can hide from me.

Suggest that the wedding is coming up, and that you think _________ would make a good gift. Ask if you can purchase it and send it. (or will the two of you be attending the wedding, and were going to take it personally.) See what he says. You can be proactive, you don't have to wait on this one.

LIR.........................................Regarding my H's attitude towards Thanksgiving, you are correct. He doesn't care about Thanksgiving at all. That is why he didn't care that I left him alone for the holiday. I wonder maybe if I should shrug off that he didn't call.

These are the kinds of things that a couple should POJA. Find ways to make you happy. Find ways to make him happy. I would care about being left alone - Holiday or no Holiday. I may love my W, and encourage her to go if I couldn't go with her, but I would miss her lots.


Harudah,

I beleive in truth above all

You said it sister.

"and I think his sister knows that he is bi or gay... "

I think she could probably suspect it, but I kind of doubt that she knows for sure. He never mentioned anything to her about the time that I asked him if he were gay or bi -- yet he tells her that I accuse him of having an affair with another woman. If he is, then I think he's hiding it from her, too.

This is one of the things we don't know for sure - lets talk about that for a little bit, as long as I can stay awake. Hey, but If I stay awake long enough, LIR will be up, and she can critique my work..

Lets talk about what we do know, and what we don't know. Since it's late, my logic may be faulty, and I want you to correct me if needed. See, I did it already, It's early, not late. Good morning -

WE KNOW:
He's not honest about what he does, and where he goes.
He hides things
He blatantly lies.
He lies by omission - knows there is more to tell, but won't tell it.
Denies what you already know - makes up stories.
Looks at porn (only Gay porn?)

Won't go to counseling
Won't read MB materials
We know who the phone number belongs to - but not what that means.
He says he is interested in staying married
WHAT WE DON'T KNOW :

If he is gay.
Where he goes
What he does
If he is really interested in your marriage because his actions don't seem to back up his words.

My feeling is that you have enough to convict him of sexual involvement with someone by circumstantial evidence. I don't' have all of it in front of me, but you have it all in your mind.

I am sure (my mind being what it is right now) that I am leaving things out. Please feel free to discuss the list.


I did talk to my mother and my brother - separately. I told them both that I want to be sure that I've done everything that I can before I give up on my M - especially since my H said that he's willing to work on our M. My brother didn't say much of anything. My mother understands and says that it's up to me - and she will support me -- but she doesn't think that there's much to save or that my H is working on anything -- particularly since he didn't even call all weekend. My brother even asked me if H had called. I said, "uh, no." I was embarrassed, because I know exactly how it looks. I feel like I have to make excuses - "well, he's busy working this weekend," etc., etc.

There are many reasons for the lack of a call. Only a few years ago, I would not have made one either. I am glad you spoke to your family. They love you deeply, it is good to let them know what is going on without revealing specifics.

The things we know and don't know do not put him in a good light. You have more facts than I do, I would like to see you add to the list and discuss it.

I would like to know how you feel now about giving two weeks notice.

It has occurred to me that if you work a standard day, and he works until almost midnight, you would tend to grow apart from each other. There would be few shared evenings, few common interests on a day to day basis. Is there anything that can be done about this?

Probably time for bed. Will say a prayer for you - and continue often.

LIR, for you too.

SS

Wow, I can't believe I've been away from MB for so long. I've lurked a little here and there, but there have been entire days when I haven't even looked at the site.

I guess I am just coasting along right now. I guess I have been at ease lately. I haven't found any more suspicious behavior from my H. I haven't caught any phone conversations. He hasn't taken any secret trips (that I'm aware of). I've been checking the spyware, too, and I haven't noticed any disturbing emails. I was able to get his password to his other screen name in AOL. It is a very non-gay password, too, BTW.

He's been very nice lately. We went to my Christmas party for work last Saturday night. I was a little stressed out about it. Last year, when it came time to RSVP for the Christmas party, my H outright said that he did not want to go. The year before that, he told me that he was going to go, until it was the night of the party- and I was already dressed to go. He said, "you don't mind going by yourself, do you? I'm not feeling too well." That was not the first time that my H had done that to me. So I was a little worried that he would pull that on me this year, but he didn't. We went and had a really great time. H laughed his butt off that night. I have some pretty crazy friends at work.

The only thing that worries me now, though, is that he is pushing me to go visit my family in Chicago for Christmas by myself. My H always has hard time getting time off from work for Christmas, but we have always managed to go together - even if it was after Christmas, before New Year's. But this year, he tells me that he can't go at all. I don't know what to think of it.

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

SS,

How have you been? I hope your father is doing better.

You mentioned that you have twin daughters. That is very cool! Are they identical? Back when my H wanted kids, he REALLY wanted twins. I even found a family tree that he drew that listed all of his relatives that had twins. But from what I understand, that comes from the woman's side of the family, not the man's, right? There are no twins in my family. Not to mention that we probably won't ever have children, either. Oh well - it's probably for the best.

My initials are SVB. I know ... not too creative. I'm naturally not a very creative person, and I wasn't feeling particularly creative when I first joined MB, either.

I was wondering what a really good night was in your mind. I have my own ideas, (for me personally) and they often involve physical intimacy. From things you have said I would guess he talked to you more, and was for the most part kind, and non judgmental. Please tell me what he did that made you happy - mostly I interested in how he treated you emotionally - and why you liked that evening. Perhaps by now you don't remember details.

If I remember correctly, it was a Tuesday night. That means that we watched the Amazing Race on tv that night. That usually spurs us to talk a lot .. about the world, people, relationships, fond memories, etc. etc. It puts us both in our happy place - together. I felt like we really bonded on that night. I felt more emotionally connected to him that night.

As for H sleeping when I returned. He didn't get up till aroung 1:30 - 2pm. That's VERY late for him. I suspected that he went out the night before after work. That would explain some of the miles on his car. But of course, I don't know for sure. I didn't ask him about it except for, "I guess you had a late night last night?"
He didn't really say anything except that he was expecting that I would join him in bed when I got home since I got up so early that morning (4am).
Seems like different expectations and bad communication on both of our parts.

I think I'm going to ask him today how far he's gotten in reading Harley's material. I betcha he's going to hem and haw about it -- because he hasn't read any of it.

"He hasn't read any, and won't let you read it to him. He won't discuss it - correct?"

Correct. The situation is still the same.

No, I haven't given my two weeks notice yet. I guess I was just venting. But the idea still crosses my mind every now and then.

These are the kinds of things that a couple should POJA. Find ways to make you happy. Find ways to make him happy. I would care about being left alone - Holiday or no Holiday. I may love my W, and encourage her to go if I couldn't go with her, but I would miss her lots.

Yeah, it looks like were going to go through this again. As I mentioned in my previous post, he says he can't go to Chicago for Christmas this year. I told him that I wasn't going to leave him alone for Christmas - it's not the same as Thanksgiving. He said that he didn't care. He told me that he doesn't want me to stay behind to see me mope. He said he would prefer to be alone.

WE KNOW:
He's not honest about what he does, and where he goes.
He hides things
He blatantly lies.
He lies by omission - knows there is more to tell, but won't tell it.
Denies what you already know - makes up stories.
Looks at porn (only Gay porn?)
Won't go to counseling
We know who the phone number belongs to - but not what that means. Won't read MB materials

WHAT WE DON'T KNOW :

If he is gay.
Where he goes
What he does
If he is really interested in your marriage because his actions don't seem to back up his words.

I think you've got it pretty much covered. I don't think I can add anything else. He looked at gay porn one time. On one other time he looked at both regular and gay porn. On this occasion it looked as if he just opened up a bunch of spam with porn links in them. I haven't caught him looking at anything since then.
Though I typed in "gay" in files to look up on my computer and it turned up a "gay webcam." The file was dated 2002. I won't lie and say that I'm not worried.

It has occurred to me that if you work a standard day, and he works until almost midnight, you would tend to grow apart from each other. There would be few shared evenings, few common interests on a day to day basis. Is there anything that can be done about this?

That's exactly what Jennifer said, too. She said she doesn't like the situation. Unfortunately, I can't see a resolution to this. If anything, it will get worse because of his plans to be away for 6 weeks at a time (if he gets the job that he wants.)

I'm still in turmoil.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I'd say OK, pack my things and "leave" (i.e. stay (dark) and follow him wherever he goes (buy a wig <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) to finally find what's hapenning, if anything) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]</small>