Belonging,

I hadn't thought of that! Or I could come home earlier than expected (without him knowing) and follow him around. Hmmmm. Something to think about.

I remember your first posts and my replies... you remember, you couldn't believe that I spent almost TWO years having doubts and it took me those two years to discover...?
When I think about that now, I would take days off and follow him DAYS if it takes to find out earlier...
So, you have an opportunity (before you decide to go without him, tell him you'd like to spend holidays with him much more than anything, if he insists on you leaving alone, something is fishy, could be nothing, but still you will know...
No, don't go and come earlier (might be late) but stays all days in the town and watch... you know better how that would be feasible...
I would do so, after that experience of mine, waiting, doubting and suspecting my own sanity...

Wow, I can't believe I've been away from MB for so long. I've lurked a little here and there, but there have been entire days when I haven't even looked at the site.

This usually means one of three things -
1. You are doing well, feeling OK, and you don't feel like you want to come here.

2. You are buried with things to do, and so tired you can't make yourself come and type, it takes too much out of you.

3. You don't know what to do, you can't make a decision, and you don't want to talk about it, because you feel so lost. You really don't want to make a decision.


I guess I am just coasting along right now. I guess I have been at ease lately. I haven't found any more suspicious behavior from my H. I haven't caught any phone conversations. He hasn't taken any secret trips (that I'm aware of). I've been checking the spyware, too, and I haven't noticed any disturbing emails. I was able to get his password to his other screen name in AOL. It is a very non-gay password, too, BTW.

All these things are good. I worry that he will only take trips when you are out of town now. But, to be fair, if there are no mail, or phone call problems things could be getting better.


He's been very nice lately. We went to my Christmas party for work last Saturday night. I was a little stressed out about it. Last year, when it came time to RSVP for the Christmas party, my H outright said that he did not want to go. The year before that, he told me that he was going to go, until it was the night of the party- and I was already dressed to go. He said, "you don't mind going by yourself, do you? I'm not feeling too well."

It would be hard to trust someone who does this to you. Also - it is hard to love someone who does this to you. When you love someone, you support them in things like this.


That was not the first time that my H had done that to me. So I was a little worried that he would pull that on me this year, but he didn't. We went and had a really great time. H laughed his butt off that night. I have some pretty crazy friends at work.

It is sounding better. I am thinking that if he really intends to leave, he wouldn't go. If it's an act, it can't last more than a couple of months. (only my opinion of course)


The only thing that worries me now, though, is that he is pushing me to go visit my family in Chicago for Christmas by myself. My H always has hard time getting time off from work for Christmas, but we have always managed to go together - even if it was after Christmas, before New Year's. But this year, he tells me that he can't go at all. I don't know what to think of it.

You could offer to stay with him over Christmas. Families are great, but if my W couldn't go, I would stay with her, not go see my family. I wonder what he would say if you told him you will stay with him. How do you feel about making that kind of offer?

I have a hard time believing he couldn't take any time at all. I wonder what his supervisor would say about that?


SS, How have you been? I hope your father is doing better.

He is doing really well. Better than I had hoped. He's 75 now, and still cuts the grass, and pretty much does everything for he and mom still. I worry, but looks like it's not his time yet.


You mentioned that you have twin daughters. That is very cool! Are they identical?

No, not identical. About as different as I could imagine for twins. One is very talented in art, and is a homebody, one is very physical, and likes sports.

Back when my H wanted kids, he REALLY wanted twins. I even found a family tree that he drew that listed all of his relatives that had twins. But from what I understand, that comes from the woman's side of the family, not the man's, right? There are no twins in my family. Not to mention that we probably won't ever have children, either. Oh well - it's probably for the best.

Tell me about your feelings on children. From what I know about you, I would guess that you would have chosen to have some already if the choice was yours alone. However, the way you say "back when my H wanted to have kids........" I am wondering if this has had a bearing on the marriage relationship.

So, has this been a sore point with either one of you? Are you agreed about it the last year or two?


My initials are SVB. I know ... not too creative. I'm naturally not a very creative person, and I wasn't feeling particularly creative when I first joined MB, either.

Usually I make no mention of things like this, but late at night my posts are different. Daytime, I tend to stick more to business. I meant it all in fun, so don't worry about creative, or not creative. I was just curious - and to be fair, since I asked you, my name reflects the fact that I am still looking for knowledge, and wisdom. I need it too - just ask my W if you don't' believe me.

Notice too, that you seem to be apologizing for not being creative. Is this still a sign of his getting on you for everything you said, and did all this time?

I think you can use any name here that you want, I am happy with the way you do things. Please understand that I don't judge you, but only try to bring things to your mind. You are a very open, and honest person, that's the only reason I am able to help you. (It was the same for LIR, you two are a lot alike)


If I remember correctly, it was a Tuesday night. That means that we watched the Amazing Race on tv that night. That usually spurs us to talk a lot .. about the world, people, relationships, fond memories, etc. etc. It puts us both in our happy place - together. I felt like we really bonded on that night. I felt more emotionally connected to him that night.

He was more like when you first met him?
I had guessed this might be the case. For you, it is a really big thing, because it helped you calm your fears, and see he really can be what you need, and want. I wish I could see inside his mind a little more.


As for H sleeping when I returned. He didn't get up till around 1:30 - 2pm. That's VERY late for him. I suspected that he went out the night before after work. That would explain some of the miles on his car. But of course, I don't know for sure. I didn't ask him about it except for, "I guess you had a late night last night?"
He didn't really say anything except that he was expecting that I would join him in bed when I got home since I got up so early that morning (4am).
Seems like different expectations and bad communication on both of our parts.

On the rare times when I stay up all night for some reason (usually computer systems changes) I still can't sleep past nine, or ten. Oh, to be young again. I am still thinking about this one. Sometimes I resent something my W does, and I stay up late and read, a habit from my youth. If I had something like that on my mind, I may have missed greeting you also. I usually put things in terms I can understand, so it he could have had valid reasons. I still worry (as do you) that he did put the miles on the previous night, and is hiding something. The bright side is that he hoped you would join him - sounds like most men.


I think I'm going to ask him today how far he's gotten in reading Harley's material. I betcha he's going to hem and haw about it -- because he hasn't read any of it.

If he won't help with recovery, I am not sure what you could do. It is possible for you to gently teach him over time, but it would take a very loooooong time. You have been thinking about this, and it goes round and round in your head, but the choices and results are limited.

If you want a quick solution, it would be: He helps, or you leave. This would be active help, not passive help.

If you are willing to accept a slow one, it might work, but it will be years before you know. This could be passive help, where you train him by what you will accept, or not accept. This assumes he will stay, which you don't know yet.

He can be given boundaries to help him (and you) make a choice -
Go to counseling with me, and address this list, or I won't stay with you.

That could tell you want you want to know (can anything be done?) without the years of waiting.


"He hasn't read any, and won't let you read it to him. He won't discuss it - correct?"

Correct. The situation is still the same.

I can't imagine you trusting him, and because of that, loving him the way you want, unless he will help. I don't think you can go back to the way it was before, and I don't know if he can change. This leaves you in limbo. I think it's time to call Jen again. Maybe the first week of January, you may have more info by then. I am just thinking out loud, what do you think?

No, I haven't given my two weeks notice yet. I guess I was just venting. But the idea still crosses my mind every now and then.

You will feel the same for a couple of weeks straight, not just now and then.


I told him that I wasn't going to leave him alone for Christmas - it's not the same as Thanksgiving. He said that he didn't care. He told me that he doesn't want me to stay behind to see me mope. He said he would prefer to be alone.

Do you mope? Is this a valid observation on his part? If you stayed, would you be happy, and excited to be with him, and not worry about being away from your family?
I would like to know if he is making excuses, or if there is a history he is remembering, and he wants to make it easy on himself. If I could only go for a day, or two, I might feel better about staying home too. It is so difficult to travel like that for a short time.

How comfortable is he with your family? Can he laugh like he did at the company Christmas party?
It they have bad feelings about him (which they may right now,) him going to see them probably wouldn't help your marriage much.


Though I typed in "gay" in files to look up on my computer and it turned up a "gay webcam." The file was dated 2002. I won't lie and say that I'm not worried.

Not much you can do with this one without more information. I hate telling you that, because you have been so patient since last spring. OK, most of the time you have been patient. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"It has occurred to me that if you work a standard day, and he works until almost midnight, you would tend to grow apart from each other. There would be few shared evenings, few common interests on a day to day basis. Is there anything that can be done about this?"

That's exactly what Jennifer said, too. She said she doesn't like the situation. Unfortunately, I can't see a resolution to this. If anything, it will get worse because of his plans to be away for 6 weeks at a time (if he gets the job that he wants.)

This is a big thing. I agree with Dr Harley about love. I loved my W, and she loved me before we found MB, and started working on our M. It is very different now, in that I can't wait to see her in the evening, and she can't wait for me to come home. It's wasn't that way for quite a few years.

The four rules really work.
Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery
Lots of useful stuff in the whole thing, but the four rules are about halfway down. They have a header.

You don't have honesty, and you don't have time. I worry about how much you can do without those two.

I'm still in turmoil.

How is he from day to day? Is it the lack of honesty that keeps you away from him? I suppose I am trying to find a nice way to ask how he is treating you as far as saying things about your ability, and intelligence.


BTW, I want to tell you something that I told LIR once. If I ever say anything that hurts, It wasn't meant to be that way. I try to help you see all the sides, and look at things from different points of view, but I don't try to blame you or say things are your fault. I believe you are smart enough to pick useful ideas from this, but not worry if I bring up something that won't help.
OK? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SS

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Edited my last thread, had wrong link to four rules.

Am not doing much proofing this week, PLEASE forgive my errors.

SS

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Belonging,

Yeah, I do remember, now that you mention it. Two years, yikes, that's not good at all -- and I'm about half-way there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I guess I don't have to let it get to two years.
I could even leave before the two years are up!

I have an update before I answer SS's post. It's not good.

H is not interested in SF anymore.

I asked H the other night if he noticed that we haven't had SF since I've been back from my Thanksgiving trip. (It's not that I haven't tried - he's always too tired) At first he didn't say anything so I asked again. He said, "yes." I said, "don't you miss it?" He said, "no." I asked, "why not?" He said "it's not the same as before." I asked him what he meant by that - that is when he got upset and said "I DON'T KNOW" Then he said that he didn't want to say anything else because I would "attack" him. It was the end of the conversation. I don't know what he means by "attack" him, because I don't think I do - other than ask him a lot of questions.

I tried to ask him calmly again last night what he meant. He said he doesn't know why he feels that way. I said it could be a number of reasons - he could be depressed, he might not love me still, or he could be interested in somebody else. Again, he said, "I don't know." I asked, "are you sure you're telling me everything? You're not holding back anything?" Again he said, "I DON'T KNOW." I told him that it hurts me that he feels that way. It makes me feel rejected and unloved. He said, "NOW YOU KNOW THE WAY THAT I FELT FOR NINE YEARS."

What do I do now? What does this mean for a guy?

BTW, other than this stuff. We had a normal night last night. We still talked and laughed, etc.

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

Wow, I can't believe I've been away from MB for so long. I've lurked a little here and there, but there have been entire days when I haven't even looked at the site.

This usually means one of three things -

1. You are doing well, feeling OK, and you don't feel like you want to come here.

2. You are buried with things to do, and so tired you can't make yourself come and type, it takes too much out of you.

3. You don't know what to do, you can't make a decision, and you don't want to talk about it, because you feel so lost. You really don't want to make a decision.

I think it's #3 for me.

You could offer to stay with him over Christmas. Families are great, but if my W couldn't go, I would stay with her, not go see my family. I wonder what he would say if you told him you will stay with him. How do you feel about making that kind of offer?

I have a hard time believing he couldn't take any time at all. I wonder what his supervisor would say about that?

I have offered. He said that I should take the opportunity to go see my family and spend time with my nieces. He said that I should still be able to go visit my family even though he has to work. He reminded me that two of his sisters usually leave their husbands to spend time with their family for Christmas - because their husbands have to work.

Also, he said that he has no desire to celebrate Christmas. He works in retail, and he said that he is sick of it already. He doesn't want the house to be decorated, he doesn't want to exchange gifts, etc. etc.

Ba humbug

He also told me to call his supervisor if I don't believe him about getting time off for Christmas. He said his boss would let him go after the new year.

Do you mope? Is this a valid observation on his part? If you stayed, would you be happy, and excited to be with him, and not worry about being away from your family?
I would like to know if he is making excuses, or if there is a history he is remembering, and he wants to make it easy on himself. If I could only go for a day, or two, I might feel better about staying home too. It is so difficult to travel like that for a short time.

How comfortable is he with your family? Can he laugh like he did at the company Christmas party? It they have bad feelings about him (which they may right now,) him going to see them probably wouldn't help your marriage much

I guess it's possible that I could mope. I'd try not to, though. It's also possible that he might not really feel like travelling for such a short time. But also, though, I think he's concerned about my family. Last Christmas didn't go very well. H's niece and nephews were with us - visiting from Argentina- at my mom's house and my H treated me like dirt and his family like gold (my mother's words) and it was very obvious to my family. He might be uncomfortable about going back. He also has issues with my mother nowadays and I don't think that he wants to deal with her. I hear him complain about her to his sister all the time. He thinks that she is controlling and bitter and will ruin my life if I ever go back to Chicago.

Tell me about your feelings on children. From what I know about you, I would guess that you would have chosen to have some already if the choice was yours alone. However, the way you say "back when my H wanted to have kids........" I am wondering if this has had a bearing on the marriage relationship.

So, has this been a sore point with either one of you? Are you agreed about it the last year or two?

It has always been a sore point with us. Towards the beginning of our marriage, my H really wanted children. I didn't feel ready yet. I wanted to establish myself in a career first. I wanted to buy a house first, etc. etc. Then, about two years ago or so, I felt ready. I felt that I had established myself enough in my career and and it was time for a change. (I guess it was my age, too.) Well, at that point he said that he wasn't sure if he wanted kids anymore. Then last year I brought it up again and he said, "NO WAY." He said that he already put the issue of having children out of his mind and told me not to even bring up the topic again.

So, yes, very sore topic. We've never been on the same page about this. It could be because he's older than I am and he felt ready sooner? Now he says he's too old. I guess it just was never meant to be. Maybe I was selfish for wanting to establish a career first. He's called me a monster because of this. "What woman doesn't want kids?"

He was more like when you first met him? I had guessed this might be the case. For you, it is a really big thing, because it helped you calm your fears, and see he really can be what you need, and want.

That's exactly right.

I wish I could see inside his mind a little more.

You and me both!

If he won't help with recovery, I am not sure what you could do. It is possible for you to gently teach him over time, but it would take a very loooooong time. You have been thinking about this, and it goes round and round in your head, but the choices and results are limited.

If you want a quick solution, it would be: He helps, or you leave. This would be active help, not passive help.

Yeah, I still don't know what to do. I'm afraid to ask him again if he's still interested in working on our M, or if he's read any more of Harley's material.

I like the idea of the boundaries. Saying - this is what we are going to do - read the concepts, fill out the questionnaires, and talk to Jennifer. If not, I am leaving.

I'm wondering how I could bring that up.

And you're right, I think it might be time to call Jennifer again.

How is he from day to day? Is it the lack of honesty that keeps you away from him? I suppose I am trying to find a nice way to ask how he is treating you as far as saying things about your ability, and intelligence.

He has been better from day to day than in the past. I don't find too many occasions where I feel that I have to stand up for myself. I can't think of a recent example.

BTW, I want to tell you something that I told LIR once. If I ever say anything that hurts, It wasn't meant to be that way. I try to help you see all the sides, and look at things from different points of view, but I don't try to blame you or say things are your fault. I believe you are smart enough to pick useful ideas from this, but not worry if I bring up something that won't help. OK?

OK. I haven't felt any hurt and I really appreciate your help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 17, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

OK, I just got home from work.

I failed to mention that H is off from work today. I checked his miles. Let's see. 40098 this morning. Now there are 41046. Do we even have to do the math? 48. What a surprise.

He's done laundry already and is freshly showered and watching tv on the couch - as happy as can be.

I can't help but feel unhappy right now. NOW I am moping. I'm sure it shows and he notices, but I can't help it. He might suspect that I suspect or checked his miles, but OH WELL.

<small>[ December 17, 2004, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I had another conversation with my H last night.

You know I was debating whether I should ask him if he still wants to work on our M. Well I asked. He said, "What do YOU think?" I said, "I'm asking YOU." He said, "I don't know."

Here we go again.

I asked him if he would mind if I read the MB basic concepts to him. He said that he looked at it all already and that there is nothing new in there that we don't already know.

I asked him if he would consider talking to my counselor with me. He made a face and said that we already tried that.

I told him that I'm not happy because I don't think we're working on anything at all. It makes ME feel like leaving. He didn't say anything.

I asked him what made him unhappy this past year that made him want to leave our M. At first he said he didn't know. Then he said he felt tired, bored, and tired of being attacked all of the time. I said, "I haven't attacked you in a long time." (I still don't even know what he means by attacking him) He said, "You're attacking me now!"

I told him that I'd like to know what his most important emotional needs are, and I'd like him to know mine. I hunted down the EN questionnaire that I had filled out about 4 months ago and gave it to him (finally). I asked him if he'd read it. He told me to set it down and he'd read it later. Again, I told him that I'd like to know his needs, too. He said he doesn't even know what his are.

I asked him if he read about the love bank concept where we deposit points by meeting each others emotional needs and withdraw points if we make each other unhappy. He just made a face and made a comment to the effect of "yeah whatever."

I asked him, "why are you mocking this? It's important to me." "Are you sure you want to work on our M? I need to know because I need to make a decision" He screamed, "THEN MAKE A DECISION ALREADY! I DON'T EVEN CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO ME TOMORROW!"

Now these sound like the words of a depressed man to me. If that is the case, I would feel guilty about leaving him for Christmas. However, part of me believes that he is NOT depressed. Would a depressed man talk to his sister on the phone all excited about applying for a new position with his company where he gets to travel around the world six weeks at a time? Would a depressed man go to the gym? Would a depressed man be making plans to go visit his family in February and be buying all kinds of gifts to take?

Or is he still done with our M and is just stringing me along still?

I still don't know what to think.

<small>[ December 17, 2004, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

Hi S,

You always leave me a lot to think about. I wish I had the time to do a proper reply, but I'll do the best I can.


Now these sound like the words of a depressed man to me. If that is the case, I would feel guilty about leaving him for Christmas. However, part of me believes that he is NOT depressed. Would a depressed man talk to his sister on the phone all excited about applying for a new position with his company where he gets to travel around the world six weeks at a time? Would a depressed man go to the gym? Would a depressed man be making plans to go visit his family in February and be buying all kinds of gifts to take?

We know he has a separate secret life. We know he STILL won't talk about it.

When I see depressed persons - it seems like they don't get excited about anything. They don't exercise (that is part of treatment programs in some instances) because they can't get up the energy, they don't respond normally to the stimuli of special events, and so on.

Now, I am not an expert, but relate what I have seen. What I think I see is that you are enforcing boundaries, he is trying to get around them. Isn't this his old behavior? Controlling you with anger to get you to leave him to his secrets while still having you around to keep house for him, and provide FS while he meets other needs elsewhere.

Or is he still done with our M and is just stringing me along still?

It sounds like he is.

If I was depressed, and someone offered me help, I think I would grab on to it with both hands.

I believe he quit counseling before, and refuses it now because he has no intention of looking inside, and changing. It looks like he is comfortable with how things are, and intends to keep them just the same as long as he can.

I still don't know what to think.

All the facts are there - all he will do, all he won't do.

By now, you realize you do have some faults. I know you think about that. This is not your fault though.

If a person loves someone, and wants their marriage to succeed, they find ways to work on the problems in their marriage. You are seeking solutions with all your heart. He is not. I see no effort from him to fix the problems. I do see continued disrespect, and dishonesty.

If he is claiming he is perfect, and you are the one with problems, then he is either insane, or dishonest. I believe one of these fits his pattern really well - I am sure it's not a mystery to you.

Now, this is a rotten post to do in the season of peace and joy. It's not the one I was wanting to do either, I would rather make you laugh.

I don't think you need more information at this point. For me, I wouldn't need to know the secret, it would be enough that there was one, and all the things you know about that secret point to cheating in one form or another. I don't think you are going to find out he is secretly taking classes to learn how to build pool tables, and they use condoms in the construction process.

I do recommend you talk to Jen again. She has lots more ideas for making things work than I do.

Please forgive me for being so sporadic in posting. I have been praying for you often.

Remember that the advice you get here doesn't have strings attached. Your mothers advice, your brothers advice, and for sure your H's comments all have some spin. There is nothing at stake here for me, except to see you living a happy and successful life.

God be with you, and may you still find a large measure of joy, and happiness this Christmas despite the pain you must feel at times.

SS

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hello SS,

Happy New Year! I hope your holidays were wonderful with your family. I had a nice time in Chicago with my family. I came home by New Year's Eve to spend it with my H. He decided to go to sleep 7 minutes before the new year!

Since then it has been a little more pleasant at home. He has told me that he officially applied for the position to open up new stores. He said that we have a better chance of moving back to Chicago if he gets that job.

I think the main reason that he is more pleasant, though, is that he is officially going to visit his family in Argentina for a month in February. He is all excited about preparing to go.

I am still conflicted. While I was at home with my family, I was pretty much decided that it would be best to end our M. Now that I am home and it is more pleasant, I think that it would be easy to just play along and live in denial. I haven't come to MB in a while because I don't even want to think about these issues. I just want to forget about it all and pretend that none of this is/has happened.

Yeah, I think you're right, he is comfortable the way things are and will try to keep it this way as long as he can. I don't know if I can bring myself to do anything else about this. I am so weak.

BTW, I read your last post to my mother and she agrees with you 100%. She says you're very good.

I don't know how much more I'll be coming back here. I think I know what I need to do, but I can't bring myself around to do it. I can't make the final decision. All of you wonderful people are giving me advice, and I feel like I'm doing nothing. I don't think it's fair to anyone here to hear me vent about my situation, but yet I do nothing about it.

Thank you, SS, and everyone else for all of your advice and support. I might post again when I get my butt in gear and make a decision or have some other earth shattering update.

Take care,
svb1

<small>[ January 12, 2005, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

If you don't know what to do - don't do anything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You can vent as much as you can if you ask me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In any way - my best wishes to you!

Hey,
Please don't leave becaue you feel you are stuck.

Most of us, if not all of us, don't do everything we believe we should do. Most maybe, but not all.

I believe it has been good for you to vent, and I think it does a lot for your thought processes too.

I have almost come back and asked about you, but I thought you may want to be left alone for a while, and I guessed what you might be thinking.

In case you are wondering, I don't think bad of you......kind of like your mother. You may also notice that both of us do care what happens to you.

Please tell me more about your feelings on this. Why did you think it was over at home, and now you feel like continueing to work on it? Do you understand why you have those conflicting feelings? (I think you do understand, and you even covered it a little bit in your last post, but please talk a little more about it for me.)

Do you have a boundry? What I mean is, at some point, you would say "enough is enough," and if yes, what would that look like to you?

Please also tell me about your feelings about yourself. I would like to know more about your personal goals (what you feel comfortable talking about,) your dreams, your wishes, and how what you are doing at work, and at home fits with these dreams, and goals. I want to know where you want to be in 10 years, and what you think will help you get there.

As always, it's your thread, smile, and remember people love you, and care about you.

Are you warm enough these days?
Emotionally, are you warm enough?

SS

Hello SS,

I'm going to answer the first part of your last post for now. I'll answer the rest of your questions later. You're asking a lot of questions. You're making me think too much! No, that's ok. The tough questions need to be asked.

Please tell me more about your feelings on this. Why did you think it was over at home, and now you feel like continueing to work on it? Do you understand why you have those conflicting feelings? (I think you do understand, and you even covered it a little bit in your last post, but please talk a little more about it for me.)

Before I left for Christmas, I felt that my H had pulled back a lot. I was really disappointed that he didn't care to spend the holidays with me. Then, while I was at home, I had many discussions with my mother that weren't very positive about our R. By the time I left Chicago, I just kept thinking, "what's the point in continuing our R?"

But then when I returned, my H seemed to have changed again for the better. (well... except for New Year's Eve -- that was really strange) He was sharing more with me about his plans at work, etc. Even now, he is still more talkative, playful and affectionate. Of course, in the back of my mind, I wonder if it is because he is happy because he is going to be visiting his family soon -- and I am being very cooperative. (He is getting what he wants.) But it is so much more pleasant at home, I almost don't even care.

I've started reading Dr. Phil's book, "Life Strategies." (I'm actually reading it for the 2nd time - it's been a while since I read it for the 1st time.) Two of the problems he discusses in the first chapter really relate to me -- denial and inertia.

Denial -- "denial can take the form of totally failing to see what is, or seeing it, but resisting it, because you don't like it." In my case, I think I see it, but I don't like it.

inertia -- "paralysis caused by fear and denial."
Need I say any more? My mouth dropped open when I read that. I guess I don't want to believe what might actually be going on, and I'm terrified to find out the absolute truth. Thus, I drag my feet about following him, buying a GPS system, and sometimes I "forget" to set the recorder.

As long as things are pleasant at home, I go into my denial mode. That's where I am now. It makes me want to stay away from MB - because I don't want to be reminded of all of this.

Gotta go for now -- I'll post more later.

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

Do you have a boundry? What I mean is, at some point, you would say "enough is enough," and if yes, what would that look like to you?

I’ve been thinking a lot about this. I am wondering if I even have a boundary. I used to think that if my H ever hit me or cheated on me, I would be gone. Well, he’s definitely hit me, emotionally abused me, and most likely cheated on me, too, and yet I am still here.

Taken all together, it sounds horrible. I think I’m crazy for sticking around. But in my mind, I separate the issues. I think, “yes, he’s hit me, but that was 8 years ago and we went to counseling and he hasn’t done it anymore.” As for the emotional abuse, I think, “he’s not that bad, and we can both be re-trained to resolve that.” I am really working on standing up for myself – in a nice way. He seems to be responding well. As for the cheating, I’m stuck on that one.

I don’t know for sure if he’s been/being unfaithful to me. You have said:

I don't think you need more information at this point. For me, I wouldn't need to know the secret, it would be enough that there was one, and all the things you know about that secret point to cheating in one form or another. I don't think you are going to find out he is secretly taking classes to learn how to build pool tables, and they use condoms in the construction process.

I bounce back and forth in my mind about this. Sometimes I think that I don’t need any more information (like over the holidays). It is enough that he is disrespectful and is keeping secrets from me. Then I think that maybe I really NEED to know the truth. Like Lady in Red said, “But you will NEED to stay in control of yourself, and build up your file of evidence. If you do end up divorcing, you want to know the real reason why.”

I am really stuck on this point. Then, besides going back and forth in my mind about this, even when I think that I need more evidence, I STILL drag my feet in getting it.

Maybe I really am afraid to find out the real truth -- too painful. Especially if it does turn out that he is bi or gay. Also, maybe I am afraid to move on and be on my own – as tempting as it is sometimes. I’ve known my H for 15 years, and we’ve been married for 10. Maybe I am too comfortable, too.

So, have I answered the question about my boundary? Probably not. I suppose “enough is enough” will be if I find out definitely that he has been cheating on me and still lying. I don't think I would want to work on our M anymore at that point. OR if I hear another telephone conversation of his to one of his sisters saying that he is still “done” with our marriage and he is just waiting for … whatever.

But who knows.

Hi SVB1,

I have been working away from home - not ignoring you on purpose.

I want you to know how valueable you are. It's hard to explain, but I hope you undestand. Please don't be hard on yourself if you don't do anything. This forum does a number of things, and support is probably the most important.

If you get to the point where you no longer need support, then I would be happy to see you stay away. As long as you want to talk, feel free to talk, I am not here to judge you - and I am sorry if I sounded judgemental in past posts.

Please understand how important you are -
God loves all of his sheep.......every one of us. His work, his whole energy goes to helping us succeed. You qualify for help because you are you, not because of what you do, or don't do. Not because you are strong, or weak. (I think you are strong anyway, and I could use examples to show it.)

Please let us know how you are doing, and what your mom is saying these days. I hope H is treating you well.

SS

Svb,

Not meaning to detract you from SS's support. I have a question. How do you feel about yourself?

I ask this because.... well, should I wait for your answer first?

L.

Orchid, you are on the right track - but then, you usually are.

Ss

Once again, I haven't been here in a while.
This has been for several reasons - I was sick for a week and didn't even have the strength to turn on the computer. (plus I really hurt my finger while I was sick, so it would have hurt to turn on the computer and type anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) I was also away for work for a week. And finally, I just couldn't bring myself to come here. I think I lurked only once during the past month.

Trust me, though, I've been pondering your questions throughout the whole time.

The main question has been "how do you feel about yourself?" I'm not really sure how to answer this question.

I have good and bad days. On the good days, I'm OK. On the bad days I can get pretty disgusted with myself. Today is a bad day. For instance, I'm upset with myself for having gained back all of the weight that I lost during the beginning of last year. As much as I try, I can't get back in control of my eating. There are also times on my bad days when I feel as if I have nothing to look forward to. I feel stuck. I am stuck in a bad marriage, stuck in a job that I'm unhappy with, and stuck in a city where I don't want to live. I also realize that I'll probably never have children. (This is probably for the best since I probably shouldn't have kids with this man - but I still can't help feeling sad.)

Please keep in mind that I don't feel this way all of the time. It's only on the bad days and today is a bad day. It is two years to the day that my father died. It is one year to the day that my H took his first secret trip (that I'm aware of) and lied to me about where he went. The next day was when I discovered one of his condoms was missing (I didn't think to count them that same day). I confronted him officially about the condom and an A the day after that. I am feeling a little like I'm re-living all of this stuff. I am thankful that my H is in Argentina right now because I don't think that I could look at his face right now.

OK, the pity party is over.

I'll post more later.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>

I did buy a GPS system for H's car. I'm going to play with it and get familiar with it while he is away. Then I'll use it to try to nab him when he gets back (March 13). I'm sure he'll take a special trip pretty much as soon as he returns. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>