Hi S,
It's always nice to visit your thread.

You are always welcome here - even if you make fun of Lenny (or me).

I might tease you, but I won't ever make fun of you, or Lenny.

After spending all this time trying to build you up, it would be foolish and cruel to make fun of you. If it ever sounds like I am doing that, call me on it, and I'll explain, because I won't ever do it on purpose.

I'm glad you had a good weekend. I knew AD was going to visit you, but somehow I didn't realize that you were going to travel all weekend. I'm sure AD wasn't bored either.

AD got in about 3 AM Sat Morning, and we let him sleep in. (Though he wasn't past 9 I think.) Sat is pancake day at our house (the twins insist) and we had breakfast then got ready for a bike ride between here, and Zion Park. That wore us out, and so we went for a late lunch. (AD'S treat, I told you he was a gentleman!) After that, we toured Zion Park. The tunnel, a short hike, view points, and so on. Got home after dark, tired, but happy.

Sunday was church. In the evening we had some family over, and played scrabble, and Apples, to Apples. AD is fun to spend time with. He has a great sense of humor, and he is smart. All my family who met him liked him. I'm sure Lenny would like him too.

Monday (after I went to work for a few hours) we headed out to the Grand Canyon. The remote parts, the parts few people ever see. I got us lost a few times, but he was a good sport about it. (I seldom go there either, it had been a long time since I visited a few of these places.) We finally camped for the night about 8:00 PM. After dinner, we built a camp fire, and talked until almost midnight. It was a nice evening. We took a walk, looked at the stars, talked some more, and went to bed. Thinking I would give him a taste of the old west, I threw a tarp over him, and let him try to sleep. (OK, there were sleeping bags involved too.) I hope he did sleep well, he said it has been a few years since he camped out. I slept well, it is a regular thing for me.

He was up first (such disipline) - I am so lazy when camping. We got up at close to first light, and took some photos. The sun peeked out for a few minutes, but then setteled in behind the clouds. Not be best for photos, but it was still a pretty place.

After breakfast, we traveled around to various sights near the canyon. The last place we visited was Tuweep, a canyon lookout. AD was such a good sport, and never even complained about my driving. We did 324 miles. About 304 of it on dirt roads, never crossing pavement. Parts of the west are still wild.

I'll do pictures one of these days on Graycloud's campfire thread. You can peek if you want.

I had a good weekend, too. My friends came over Saturday (as mentioned above). We had a lot of laughs. Then on Sunday, I went to see the Blue Man Group with my friend (from childhood). Very strange show - but very good!

So glad you had fun !!! Also glad you are spending time with your friend. I hope she "gets it" and helps, not hurts.

I also went to my new church. If felt good to go, but I have some concerns, too. Hopefully I'll figure it all out over time.

Glad for the good parts, sorry for the bad. Over all it helped?

My other concern for the moment is whether I should purchase that home or not. Although I've had my eye out for a place for a while, this kind of came up suddenly. I'm tempted - it's very nice, and I can afford it. I'm only a little afraid because I've already been thinking about changing jobs after a year or so (or sooner). I came into this job, as you know, with a severe pay cut, and knowing that it would only be temporary.

Maybe I shouldn't rush into anything. I'm not even D'd yet, officially. I guess I just have this desire to have something permanent, something MINE - something that can't leave me!

Most things I have read say that if you will be there under a year, it';s not worth it as far as the money goes.

You have probably studied all the same things.
There are money reasons, and there are emotional reasons. If you want it, you can get it. You don't need to feel bad about it either. Remember, no one will tell you that you are stupid, or crazy. We won't, because it's not true. You know that - but it's still hard sometiems, I can tell. If owning a home would help your state of mind, then it's a good thing. I would be concerned about ease of resale. If you are going to move, it would hurt if it didn't go through for 6 months, or if you lost money on a quick sale. Weight the pro's and con's and if you can live with the con's then do it if you want. Dont' be afraid - your dad IS right about what kind of cookie you are. Trust yourself.

I'm just scared that if I don't do this, I'll get depressed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If you can do it, and still save a little, then you can still be ready for job offers, or whatever your plans might be. Examine those dreams again. It may be that some part of you wants a rest. If so, take one. It's OK. It really is.

I'll stop talking now. None of this is M related.

I think it's recovery related, which IS marriage related - and look at the title of this section of MB. GENERAL QUESTIONS II.

Your thoughts, and feelings are important.
Always will be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

SS

I might tease you, but I won't ever make fun of you, or Lenny.

I know you won't. I know you only tease.

Your weekend sounded much more fun than my weekend - and my weekend was fun.

I was at the Grand Canyon with STBXH and his favorite sister (and her husband) once for a day. I was very disappointed. The canyon was filled with clouds and we couldn't see a thing. There was one moment when one little section cleared and we could see a little. But all the tourists flocked there to take pictures.

We didn't do the Brady Bunch thing where we went down into the canyon and camped. I'm trying to remember what happened on the Brady Bunch. Didn't Bobby and Cindy get lost? I'm glad that AD didn't get lost. You were a very good host. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So glad you had fun !!! Also glad you are spending time with your friend. I hope she "gets it" and helps, not hurts.

She "gets it" now. It was just that one comment that she made long ago that kind of stung. But I think maybe I was just being too sensitive.

She feels horrible about everything that I've been through. She says she gives me a lot of credit. We had a long conversation once after I first moved here where I told her everything that I had been through w/ STBXH. She started crying and it really surprised me. She was horrified at everything that had happened, and she said she felt bad because she couldn't/didn't support me during that time. But I told her that I didn't tell her OR my family what I was going through. I always had the hope that things would get better and I wouldn't have to.

Anyway, my whole point is that she totally understands now why I am D'ing and she agrees w/me.

And like I mentioned before, she asks ME for advice on HER R, so I guess she can't think TOO poorly of me. She calls me "O Wise One." I wouldn't say that exactly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I think that "O Wise One" should be reserved for SS only. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Glad for the good parts, sorry for the bad. Over all it helped?

Yes, over all, it helped. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't necessarily say that there were bad parts. But I don't know if I can explain it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Let's see... and as for the house? I think I'm going to put it out of my mind - for now. I think maybe it's too soon to do anything. I don't know why I'm in such a rush to do things. I'm generally a pretty patient and non-impulsive person. It did take me about 4 MONTHS to buy a tv, afterall, so I suppose I can wait at least a year for a house.

I think maybe I should wait to see how everything plays out during this next year.

Hi !
Busy weekend?

Kept dry when cleaning the tank this time?

Your weekend sounded much more fun than my weekend - and my weekend was fun.

We did have a good time - and the twins asked how it would be living where AD lives. One of these days I'll have to take them around and visit everyone, and get it out of their systems.

I was at the Grand Canyon with STBXH and his favorite sister (and her husband) once for a day. I was very disappointed. The canyon was filled with clouds and we couldn't see a thing. There was one moment when one little section cleared and we could see a little. But all the tourists flocked there to take pictures.

We had clouds - overcast - both days. I wish it had been sunny for AD to take pictures, but no such luck. The ones we did take are OK, but not the deep colors you get in early morning, and late eveing sun. So sorry your experiance was not the best - but if you ever come again, I'll try to have sun on those days. (Ha, like I can effect the weather.)


We didn't do the Brady Bunch thing where we went down into the canyon and camped. I'm trying to remember what happened on the Brady Bunch. Didn't Bobby and Cindy get lost? I'm glad that AD didn't get lost. You were a very good host. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AD didn't get lost, but I took the wrong road more than once. I confess I was a better conversationist than guide, but we did get back safely. I remembered general areas, but not the exact place to turn - once, or twice (or 8 or 10 times - but it all runs together in my mind.)


On your friend:
She "gets it" now. It was just that one comment that she made long ago that kind of stung. But I think maybe I was just being too sensitive.

How could you not be when you were in the middle of all that pain? Well, it is better now, and that is a good thing.


And like I mentioned before, she asks ME for advice on HER R, so I guess she can't think TOO poorly of me. She calls me "O Wise One." I wouldn't say that exactly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I think that "O Wise One" should be reserved for SS only. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you are wise - and- I could quote your dad for a second opinion. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?? You should really talk to the twins, they could straighten you out in a hurry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


On Church:
Yes, over all, it helped. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't necessarily say that there were bad parts. But I don't know if I can explain it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

So, you had to be there?

Let's see... and as for the house? I think I'm going to put it out of my mind - for now. I think maybe it's too soon to do anything. I don't know why I'm in such a rush to do things. I'm generally a pretty patient and non-impulsive person. It did take me about 4 MONTHS to buy a tv, afterall, so I suppose I can wait at least a year for a house.

Keep thinking about it - if you should buy it, you will become more sure, and if not, you will know that too. Right is right, even after time passes. You'll know.

I think maybe I should wait to see how everything plays out during this next year.

One of the things I really like about you is that you have passion, but you temper it with wisdom.

I think STBX is crazy. I bet AD agrees with me.

Anyway - Passion - Life is meant to be LIVED, but....... we need to keep it within the bounds the Lord has set if we want long term happiness, and the joy of knowing we did things the right way. We grow into it - it doesn't come all at once.

I see you getting there, and I hope you see it too. Again, don't think your dreams are over with. Dream new ones, and make them come true. Dont' be shy about living your life in the direction you want it to go.

Always believe in yourself. Join the rest of us that already do.

SS

Know things are still tough sometimes. Hope you have a good weekend.

SS

Hi SS,

Yeah, things are a little tough sometimes. I've been feeling a little down lately. Maybe "down" is a little bit too strong of a word. Overall, I think I'm still doing pretty well. I can't put my finger exactly on what it is. Maybe it's because of the holidays coming up. Maybe it's because of the cold and gloomy weather we've been having here. The wind is howling outside right now and I am c-c-c-c-cold.

It's not because of STBXH, though. I still don't think too much about him or our M anymore. I guess I must have officially lost all of my love for him. It's about time!! .....and yet it's sad.

As an update....

I finally received my (corrected) D paperwork from the lawyer on Monday. There are 2 documents that I need to send to the courthouse. STBXH has to sign one of them. I mailed him both documents today. He will sign and then forward them to the courthouse.

This whole D process is taking a lot longer than I'd like. I feel like I need to have all of this behind me. I was sort of hoping that we'd be D'd by this Saturday (our 11th anniversary). But now I'm hoping maybe by the end of the year. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Once STBXH sends off the paperwork, it should be another 2 weeks before I receive the divorce decree in the mail. (either that or another problem notification)

Sometimes I wish that time would just speed by. I'd like to snap my fingers and be 6 months in the future. That way I'd be much further away from all of the pain and much further into personal recovery and healing. I never thought as an adult that I would want time to go by so quickly!!

I hope you have a happy Thanksgiving and a great weekend.

Oh, and STBXH called me on Monday night. Almost 2 weeks exactly since he last called. Last time he called to tell me about that tv show. Monday he called to ask me where he could find and example of a "form Christmas letter." ??!! So I guess he's planning on sending a Christmas letter to everyone this year. I wonder if I'm going to get one. I'd be curious to see what he has to say about everything that happened this past year.

Honestly, I still think he just calls to see what is going on with the D. He never specifically asks, but I tell him.

I wonder if the calls will stop once the D is final. Or maybe he sincerely wants to be just "friends."

Who knows.

svb1...

Are you in Plan B? or just doing the D now?

I am curios...will you send him or his family a Christmas card?

I am wondering if I should....

Daisy

Hi WD!

No, I am not in plan B. I was in plan B for a while, but I didn't do it very well. I let STBXH home after he told me that he thought that our M was worth working on. (after only about 6 or 7 weeks) However, he didn't work on anything when he came back.

After a few months, I overheard him tell his BIL that he wanted to be ALONE - he didn't want to be M anymore. It was at that point that I decided to talk to him about a D. He didn't have the guts to tell me himself that he wanted a D. I was done trying to save my M. I brought it up, and he gave me no fight whatsoever. He had no tears, no doubts, no remorse, no regrets - ever. I think that's what hurt me the most. I made it easy for him, and that made him happy. He had NO love for me.

I'm strictly in plan D now. I have no more hope for my M. I hate to say it... but I think I'm better off without him. Now I look forward to the day that I will find a man who will truly love me and value me -- as much as I will love and value him.

I'm not saying that the situation is the same for you. I'm not at all suggesting that you D your H. I think that there is still hope for you. The more I think about it - and read your thread - the more I think you should call the Harleys. They will gather all of the info on your situation, and they will come up with a custom plan just for you. They can generally do that for you in one session. They are the experts - they will know what is best for you to do.

As for the Christmas card, I will probably send him one - this year. I can't imagine sending him a card for the rest of my life, though.

svb... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I guess we never know if the situation is hopeful or not....

I tell you when H left I was still hopeful. I wish I had done many things differently, but I could not <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I was hurt and in so much pain that I could not function rationally and I was not capable of acting any differently. At some point H did suggest moving back in and living in the guest bedroom. He said this in the last MC session we had. When the counsler asked me what I thought of that....I said the trueth, that it was painful and I did not know how I could live like that.....I have regretted it. There is many things I could have said differently....However, part of me knows that if he changed his mind so quickly about that, then he most likely did not want to move back in anyway, was probably still uncertain about what he wanted, etc...and would have probably left again and left me with more pain.....Besides, at the time I was still an emotional mess and I had not learned much...now I have learned so much and I know what I want in life, what I want to change, what I need to do in a R to make it loving, intimate and make it grow <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...I did not know any of that in July....well I knew very little... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway I don't know what my point was <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />....I guess what you said about your H moving back in just to leave again triggred this for me....

I am so sorry you had to deal with that....I think false recoveries are so painful and I hope I don't have to deal with that.....it just would set me back....


Now I look forward to the day that I will find a man who will truly love me and value me -- as much as I will love and value him.

That is good to hear....I guess I am still not done with my R and I do fear the next step... I'll be honest with you, I don't want to be out there. I don't want to start dating again. Right now I just don't want to meet man and go through the beginning where you don't know if the OP is at all serious or not <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />....but then if I don't want to be alone I'll have to jump on that wagon at some point....I could just be experiencing fear right now....I'll probably be ready at some point...


I think that there is still hope for you. The more I think about it - and read your thread - the more I think you should call the Harleys.

Thank you svb <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />....I know we never want to give someone false hopes but I appreciate what you are saying...you are seeing my situation differently than I do. I still have hope. I guess as long as you have hope you are not ready to D. When I am ready to D, I'll know I'll have no hope. Maybe I'm wrong.

Sorry for writing so much.......here....maybe I should go over to my thread.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Best to you....

I do hope that talking to the Harleys gives me some new perspective....

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hey Daisy,

I have regretted it. There is many things I could have said differently.... Besides, at the time I was still an emotional mess and I had not learned much...now I have learned so much and I know what I want in life, what I want to change, what I need to do in a R to make it loving, intimate and make it grow ...I did not know any of that in July....well I knew very little...

Don't get too down about it. As someone very wise told me once, (STILL SEEKING) "we only do as well as we know at the time."

I know that your new information about your H (the e-mail) is a shock to you and is very disheartening, but, somehow, I don't think you're ready to give up yet. You've already come a long way and you might still have a chance to put into practice with your H what you've learned. Plus, you will have one of the Harleys guiding you.

Your H might eventually come around. I sincerely hope that he does. If not, and there comes a time when you need to let go... I think that you will know. You will have peace in your heart about it - especially if you know that you have done everything in your power to save your M beforehand.

I'll be honest with you, I don't want to be out there. I don't want to start dating again. Right now I just don't want to meet man and go through the beginning where you don't know if the OP is at all serious or not ....but then if I don't want to be alone I'll have to jump on that wagon at some point....I could just be experiencing fear right now....I'll probably be ready at some point...

DITTO! As much as I want to have a meaningful R with someone, I'm scared - no, terrified - to get out there and try.

Sorry for writing so much.......here....maybe I should go over to my thread....

Don't be sorry. You can write as much as you like and as often as you like and about whatever you like on this thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's my thread and I make the rules here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi SVB1!

You sound like you are doing great! My parents left this morning (they flew here with me and my son and stayed for about a week), so I am a bit down. My D process will start now and I wish my parents could have sticked around a bit longer so that I feel likt I have a family support at home. Also the holiday season is killing me. I hope I will be feeling as strong as you are in a few months.

I know what you mean about dating - I would LOVE to meet someone I can trust THIS TIME and who is very strong mentally (no more addictions please) and who is not lazy, but I am scared as well. I am scared to get hurt again. But then again, there are so many who have become much happier second time around - so we just have to believe we will too! Oh, last night I had a WONDERFUL dream. I met someone on a cruise and we fell in love. I was quite disappointed this morning when I realized it was just a dream.

Milk

Hi S,
I hope you will tell about your holiday. Just tell what you did, who you did it with, and if you had any conversations about you - if so, how they went.

Yeah, things are a little tough sometimes. I've been feeling a little down lately. Maybe "down" is a little bit too strong of a word. Overall, I think I'm still doing pretty well. I can't put my finger exactly on what it is. Maybe it's because of the holidays coming up. Maybe it's because of the cold and gloomy weather we've been having here. The wind is howling outside right now and I am c-c-c-c-cold.

I admit I like warmer weather. It gets cold here - I mean it freezes most nights from now until late Feb, but it's not like Chicago.

It sounds like a general discontent that you can't define. It may very well be all of the things you talk about. Last year, you still had some hope of saving your relationship, this year, you are resigned to it being over. I would suspect that is part of it too. That, and other things I won't mention - but do you ever find your self saying "Oh mom......"

This year is different. Lots of things have changed. I would suspect you would feel some of this even if your H had moved with you, and the marriage was getting better. Change can do that. However, I am glad you feel you are doing better overall. I don't have an opinion on your feelings - they are simply your feelings. I do hope that you get to the point where one day you say "Hey, I'm happy - really happpy, this is so cool." Can you see that day coming yet?

It's not because of STBXH, though. I still don't think too much about him or our M anymore. I guess I must have officially lost all of my love for him. It's about time!! .....and yet it's sad.

I would guess it wouldn't be the thoughts so much, as the feelings. You walk down the street...... by your self. Family is nice, but not the same. I wonder how I would feel, and what I would think if I were in your place. It's hard to know - but I do think you do well for all that has happened. It's not a small thing. But...... I suppose you already know that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I finally received my (corrected) D paperwork from the lawyer on Monday. There are 2 documents that I need to send to the courthouse. STBXH has to sign one of them. I mailed him both documents today. He will sign and then forward them to the courthouse.

This whole D process is taking a lot longer than I'd like. I feel like I need to have all of this behind me.

If this goes like one of the bad movies we often see, you'll get the final papers on Dec 24th.
I really hope you get them by Mid Dec, and by Christmas you are happy as a bug in a rug. Speaking of Christmas, do you have plans yet?

Sometimes I wish that time would just speed by. I'd like to snap my fingers and be 6 months in the future. That way I'd be much further away from all of the pain and much further into personal recovery and healing. I never thought as an adult that I would want time to go by so quickly!!

Oh, it does though. When I was in second grade, it was about 12 years between Thanksgiving and Christmas morning. At least 12 years - measured in long seconds that ticked off ever so slowly. I think the longest ones were spent learning spelling words - or not learning them, depending on just who we are talking about.

Now, The time between Thanksgiving, and Christmas morning is only about 3 days - that last day taking only about 15 seconds. I'm not sure what happened, maybe it's the hole in ozone layer.

I hope you have a happy Thanksgiving and a great weekend.

I did, how about you?
How about everyone else that posts here?


Oh, and STBXH called me on Monday night. Almost 2 weeks exactly since he last called. Last time he called to tell me about that tv show. Monday he called to ask me where he could find and example of a "form Christmas letter." ??!! So I guess he's planning on sending a Christmas letter to everyone this year. I wonder if I'm going to get one. I'd be curious to see what he has to say about everything that happened this past year.

Honestly, I still think he just calls to see what is going on with the D. He never specifically asks, but I tell him.

He is used to you knowing and doing things for him. Also, I bet he just plain misses you. Almost always the WS wakes up one day and wonders what in the world they were thinking. It doesn't mean they have changed though, just that they realize they have suffered a great loss. One they caused themselves. Perhaps he knows it on some level. It would explain a lot.


I wonder if the calls will stop once the D is final. Or maybe he sincerely wants to be just "friends."

How about you, what do you want? I am more interrested in hearing about that. Think about it when you type it out, it will tell you things about yourself. Neither bad, nor good, but just information.

Who knows.

Is this multipal choice? What are the choices?
One if by land, and two if by sea?
I think that's the wrong test.

Actually, God knows. Were it good for you to know, he might put it in your mind one day as you ponder it.

It sounds like talking (typing) might still provide some benefit.

One more thing (grin) - Thanksgiving....... how did it FEEL this year?
Not indiviual events, but as a whole? Think about how it felt compared to other years, and see if it tells you anything.

I'm not looking for any right, or wrong answers - OK? I am hoping you learn some things about you, and where you are.

All the best.

SS

Hi SS,

I hope you will tell about your holiday. Just tell what you did, who you did it with, and if you had any conversations about you - if so, how they went.

Well, my brother and his family came into town for the Thanksgiving weekend. They had other plans on Thanksgiving, though. They spent it at my SIL's aunt's house, I think. (which my mother was upset about - but that's a whole nother story <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

I drove down and spent the day w/my mom on Thursday. We had dinner (beef, not turkey) and watched a movie, and then I went home.

I worked on Friday, and then I drove straight to my mom's afterwards to stay for the weekend. From there, we went to my brother's IL's house. They had a big dinner on Friday night.

On Saturday, my brother and his family came over. (They always stay at my SIL's parents' house when they are in town) SIL's parents came over for a little while, too. My nieces spent the night. We played and then watched a movie.

There were no conversations about me to speak of - other than "how's work going?" etc. All conversations were light. I was positive and happy at all times possible (not mopey) and we all joked around.

Unless you count the one that I had again with my little niece. We were sitting together in the bedroom where there are STILL wedding pictures up of me and STBXH. She said, "you really need to take those pictures down now." (she told me the same thing months ago - I'm pretty sure I posted about it.)

I said, "Those aren't my pictures to take down - they are Grandma's pictures."
Niece, "Well, then maybe you can just cut STBXH out of them." (she is 8 y.o.)
"Do you miss STBXH?"
Me, "Sometimes, but not as much as I used to."
Niece, "Are you ever going to tell me what he did to you that was so mean?" (I never told her that STBXH did anything mean to me. It must be the reason that my bro or SIL gave her for our D)
Me, "Yes. I will tell you..... when you are 30."
My niece grumbled.
Me, "OK, when you are 30 OR when you get married, whichever comes first."
Niece, "ok, then I am getting married tomorrow."

Truthfully, I have no idea what to tell her. I thought of just saying that STBXH stopped loving me, but I didn't. She is a really, really sensitive kid. For instance, she likes animal shows, but she cries whenever one gets killed. "(sniff sniff) But that mouse never had a chance! NOBODY WARNED HIM THAT THE SNAKE WAS COMING! BWAAAAA!" Or, apparently, sometimes she will start to cry out of the blue. When asked what the matter is, she says, "I MISS GRANDPA!!" So, I feel like I have to be pretty careful about whatever I say. I don't want to scar my brother's kids for life!

I would gladly take any suggestions on this matter. Somehow, I have a feeling that this subject is going to come up again. I keep forgetting to ask my brother about it, too.

I'll be back later to post some more. I'm starting to get a headache. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It sounds like a general discontent that you can't define. It may very well be all of the things you talk about. Last year, you still had some hope of saving your relationship, this year, you are resigned to it being over. I would suspect that is part of it too. That, and other things I won't mention - but do you ever find your self saying "Oh mom......"

I think I know what it is. It's not that I was feeling "down" so much as I was feeling down about myself. Is that what you mean by this --That, and other things I won't mention - but do you ever find your self saying "Oh mom......

I think it started one day as I was thinking about someday meeting a good man. Suddenly, I just felt that I wouldn't be good enough for him. Afterall, STBXH never liked the way that I dressed, he didn't like the way that I cooked, etc. So, if I met this new man, I wouldn't know what to wear, and ... sigh....I would be embarrassed to cook for him. And these are only 2 examples of many things. For a while there I was feeling pretty disgusted with myself and I was kinda hating myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The thing is that I DO know better. I just can't help feeling that way sometimes.

My question is, will those occasional feelings of worthlessness go away? Am I going to feel this way forever? Does everyone feel this way sometimes? Maybe I need to get back into IC.

I know that you've been trying to build me up, and I really appreciate it. You and others say positive things about me and I thank you. (and I'm not fishing for more, really. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> -- it makes me think of when STBXH would say that women always fish for compliments and he wasn't ever going to play that game) I'm just telling you how I've been feeling lately.

Which leads to something else -- the day that I am in another serious R, will my SO understand when I go through periodic bouts of feeling worthless? Will he get tired of reassuring me that I'm ok? Don't guys like women with self-esteem and self-confidence?

I do hope that you get to the point where one day you say "Hey, I'm happy - really happpy, this is so cool." Can you see that day coming yet? .

Don't get me wrong. I am much happier now than I've been in a long time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I feel much better now. I feel free. I look back now and I wonder WHAT WAS I THINKING when I was having all of those doubts about the D.

wonder if the calls will stop once the D is final. Or maybe he sincerely wants to be just "friends."

How about you, what do you want? I am more interrested in hearing about that. Think about it when you type it out, it will tell you things about yourself. Neither bad, nor good, but just information.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be best if I never hear from him again.

One more thing (grin) - Thanksgiving....... how did it FEEL this year?

Hmmmm.....just different.

svb1,

I haven't read your entire thread but am gonna spin your last post in another direction, so hang on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Maybe your XH didn't like or says he didn't like things you wore, said or did. IMHO, that's babble.

Now here's the spin.. WhY? Because if u were that bad, why didn't help you change for the better? Why not? Because it isn't about you. It's about the WS. Those greedy selfish nutcases.

What does this do for your self esteem? This means, with a good plan A changes under your belt, when the RIGHT person comes along, he will love you who u r, not some pretenda bee plasticy OP typo creature. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

U may be pleasantly surprised how attractive u really r to real people. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now don't stuff yourself into a corner. Your worst mistake was making a bad choice in regards to the WS. If you had the radar sense to see the WS being made in front of your eyes and had the guts t/d something about it (fight the mothership), then maybe you may have saved yourself some misery. Most of us don't have that perception nor power. So we plan A, B, D then go be happy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> The WS on the other hand, plans B.A.D. LOL!!! that spells BAD! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

Hi Orchid,

You make a ton of sense. Thank you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I appreciate seeing things from a different POV. It really helps sometimes.

So we plan A, B, D then go be happy. The WS on the other hand, plans B.A.D. LOL!!! that spells BAD!

I like that, too!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Too funny. To take it further, maybe we plan A, B, D then go be happy, and the WS plans B A D and then is sad (after they realize what they've lost!)

Milkshake,

You sound like you are doing great!

Thanks, I think I'm doing pretty well, overall. I still have my moments, though, as you can see.

I'm positive that you'll be doing much better, too, in a few months.

Which leads to something else -- the day that I am in another serious R, will my SO understand when I go through periodic bouts of feeling worthless? Will he get tired of reassuring me that I'm ok? Don't guys like women with self-esteem and self-confidence?

I wonder about this as well. On one hand I read and understand that a R needs realy emotional intimacy....yet on the other hand if you do have doubts about yourself sometimes (and I think a lot of us do) is it better to just keep it to yourself? When I would share that with H I did that to share my feelings and my doubts are part of that....and he would just find me whiny...but that is not why I said anything...and as you svb1, I was not fishing for compliments or anything like that....I just thought we could share.....so I get confused as well....I guess maybe one answer is that to have doubts here and there is normal and not to share just the doubts but the confidence as well....

Anyway, I am struggeling with this as well.....

Daisy

Hi SVB,

I have a lot of those moments where I feel worthless. Like Daisy said, I think a lof of us do. After a year of seeing and hearing how angry STBXH has been with me, unless my friends remind me what he was doing behind my back for all those years, I tend to fall in a guilt trap and feel like such a bad person. And I get scared if the next person would feel the same way about me in the future. This is something I need to work on.

To me, though, you sound 100 times stronger than me. Also, if you want to completely "end" the contacts with your STBXH, you can, which I think might help you heal sooner.

It's getting so cold now here, but we still need to get together sometime soon! I may be going out with my girlfriend on one of these Saturdays - if you are free, maybe you can join us!

Milk

HI SVB,

Long time, no catch up. I hope you are doing well.

I think EVERYONE has moments of doubt about their worthiness... it's just natural. But, put someone through all we've been through, and it just seems monumental. Again, I think it's perfectly normal and natural. You just cant let yourself wallow in the dumps for very long. I think sometimes these feelings of doubt can push us out of a rut... give us a kick in the right direction. Entice you to diet, clean, exercise, or take cooking lessons <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

And you know, the man who really loves you will love you even if you burn the dinner. I love to cook, but I've had some real duds... and not a bad word from my H, ever. I even bent one of his expensive aluminum wheels on the car when I took a curb too closely (GASP!), and he let it go. To a gear-head, THAT'S Real Love! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your H had tons of his own issues. He lied and was manipulative when he didnt need to. Dont let him take too much of your brain time... He's not really worth it. Please take care of yourself! - Dru <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope you don't care if I just kind of talk. I do intend to make sense of it before I'm done.

On the Thanksgiving Holiday -

It's interesting to hear how your holiday went. I am wondering what you do that you worked on Friday - but that is my curiosity coming out, and it's not necessary for you to answer.
We had beef for thanksgiving too - and turkey, and ham. Family tradition. When you have close to 50 people you can assign it all out.

I see you watched a movie on Thanksgiving - did you choose it, or your mom, what was it, and did you enjoy it?
Go ahead and laugh as much as you want - it doesn't bother me at all.

I find it interesting also that your brother always stays at SIL's parent's house.
It makes me wonder -
Is it a space issue? Does SIL have something against your Mom? Are her parents demanding, and they do it to please them?

We have always taken turns - my folks one year, hers the next. I can't imagine doing it any other way, and pretending it is fair. BTW, I'm discussing this as a learning experience for me, what do you think about your brothers reasons?


On Saturday, my brother and his family came over. (They always stay at my SIL's parents' house when they are in town) SIL's parents came over for a little while, too. My nieces spent the night. We played and then watched a movie.

Nieces like you, don't they. That speaks volumes for what kind of person you are. Think about that............... The little children came to Jesus, and he let them stay. He took them onto his lap, he talked to them. They felt what kind of person he was, and they wanted to be near him. I see a connection here. Be honest, they do like you, don't they. Notice this is a statement, not a question. I already know the answer.

There were no conversations about me to speak of - other than "how's work going?" etc. All conversations were light. I was positive and happy at all times possible (not mopey) and we all joked around.

So they don't protect you or be careful what they say these days? It's just like old times when doing family stuff?

Unless you count the one that I had again with my little niece.

I count it - it provides information that is valuable to you.

We were sitting together in the bedroom where there are STILL wedding pictures up of me and STBXH. She said, "you really need to take those pictures down now." (she told me the same thing months ago - I'm pretty sure I posted about it.)

I said, "Those aren't my pictures to take down - they are Grandma's pictures."
Niece, "Well, then maybe you can just cut STBXH out of them." (she is 8 y.o.)
"Do you miss STBXH?"
Me, "Sometimes, but not as much as I used to."

I have not been where you are - but I wonder if I would want to get rid of them. I mean, it was real (as opposed to fake), it was good, or at least parts of it were, and you learned so much. But then, it would be so hard to see them and not be affected by it. As you say, it's not your decision to make, but I suspect your Mom would honor a request if she felt it was hurting you.

Your mom had dreams for you too - and perhaps she will never pressure you, but perhaps those pictures represent something to her that she hates to loose. One can never be sure about some things, unless one asks.

You said you miss him sometimes, but not as much. Is it hard to pin that down? I mean, are you low sometimes and don't know why?

Niece, "Are you ever going to tell me what he did to you that was so mean?" (I never told her that STBXH did anything mean to me. It must be the reason that my bro or SIL gave her for our D)
Me, "Yes. I will tell you..... when you are 30."
My niece grumbled.
Me, "OK, when you are 30 OR when you get married, whichever comes first."
Niece, "ok, then I am getting married tomorrow."

No one likes to be in the dark about important things. She wants to know like you wanted to know - back when you were tracking him, and counting little foil packages. I know it's not the same, but her puzzle is missing pieces, and she wants it finished. The other thing is, that she trusts you to do what's right, and she probably feels he must have done something really terrible. I think he did, he destroyed your love and trust, but she probably couldn't understand well at her age.

Truthfully, I have no idea what to tell her. I thought of just saying that STBXH stopped loving me, but I didn't. She is a really, really sensitive kid. For instance, she likes animal shows, but she cries whenever one gets killed. "(sniff sniff) But that mouse never had a chance! NOBODY WARNED HIM THAT THE SNAKE WAS COMING! BWAAAAA!" Or, apparently, sometimes she will start to cry out of the blue. When asked what the matter is, she says, "I MISS GRANDPA!!" So, I feel like I have to be pretty careful about whatever I say. I don't want to scar my brother's kids for life!

Yes, I understand, especially since she thinks so highly of you. (Which we both know is true.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I would gladly take any suggestions on this matter. Somehow, I have a feeling that this subject is going to come up again. I keep forgetting to ask my brother about it, too.

I think you did well - and I think she does need to be older to understand. I recommend you hold to what you told her.

I'll be back later to post some more. I'm starting to get a headache.

Sorry.

On feeling down -
I think I know what it is. It's not that I was feeling "down" so much as I was feeling down about myself. Is that what you mean by this --That, and other things I won't mention - but do you ever find your self saying "Oh mom......

No, I was kind of teasing, but from what I get, your mom sometimes wants you to do things her way. I wonder if you have guilt about that sometimes. Times when you tell her how you are GOING TO DO IT, and she still argues with you. Perhaps those times are long past. Long term relationships are a learning experience. All of us can learn from family interaction and leverage what we learn to make our romantic relationships better. If you can do what is best for you without letting pressure from family change your mind, you will do it when you begin to fall in love again, and it may be easier for you to make sure it's a healthy relationship - win/win.
I was probing reasons for your blue thoughts.

I still have a very hard time with you feeling down about your self. It's so foreign to me that someone like you could have so many doubts. Some are normal, but not on this scale. The thing is, you could read this and feel guilty. I am only telling you my thoughts, so don't "own" the things I am saying. I am hoping it helps you with your direction and goals. You are so much better than what you sometimes think. I sometimes feel like a coach working with a future Olympic champion athlete who doesn't know yet what they can really do. You are that good - you should know it.

I think it started one day as I was thinking about someday meeting a good man. Suddenly, I just felt that I wouldn't be good enough for him. After all, STBXH never liked the way that I dressed, he didn't like the way that I cooked, etc. So, if I met this new man, I wouldn't know what to wear, and ... sigh....I would be embarrassed to cook for him. And these are only 2 examples of many things. For a while there I was feeling pretty disgusted with myself and I was kinda hating myself.

So, is this feelings about yourself, more than logic about how you really are?
I mean, you do KNOW you can cook, etc don't you?
This is a guy that let you do EVERYTHING for him, and then complained how you did it. What you do in this case, is let them do it by themselves. He will be learning......... and he won't like what he learns. Education can be so costly sometimes.

The thing is that I DO know better. I just can't help feeling that way sometimes.

OK, it's feelings about yourself. Different parts of your mind are trying to reconcile what happened. Your intellect and your emotions are trying to find common ground. Emotions have such a hard time with logic. Just remember, we have emotions for a reason......... sometimes it's good to do things just because - and our emotions know that. I think you are looking for balance though - it's hard some days.


My question is, will those occasional feelings of worthlessness go away? Am I going to feel this way forever? Does everyone feel this way sometimes? Maybe I need to get back into IC.

Dru has been telling you that it will get better - and she has been there. I would trust her. She is the same caliber of person as you are - I think she sees that too....... that you can do it just like she did.

I don't believe you will feel like this forever.


I know that you've been trying to build me up, and I really appreciate it. You and others say positive things about me and I thank you. (and I'm not fishing for more, really. -- it makes me think of when STBXH would say that women always fish for compliments and he wasn't ever going to play that game) I'm just telling you how I've been feeling lately.

I want you to know something.
I don't feel sorry for you, or say "Poor SVB, we need to help her." I sense pain sometimes, and I seek to help dissolve it, but I don't pity you.
I feel more like I am helping an equal who is going through a hard time. I realize our trials can be good for us, and I see you learning and growing. People have different strengths, and weaknesses, and some of us are not in the middle of such an emotional upheaval, so it is natural to try and help others that are.

You have both strengths and weaknesses. Don't get to thinking you only have weaknesses, you are not that lopsided. Remember your strengths, be happy you have them, and remember who you are - a daughter of God.

Thanks for trusting us enough to tell us how you have been feeling lately. It can be so much easier when people communicate. Look at this as a temporary setback, and have faith you will grow out of it. Just ask Lenny, she'll tell you the same thing.


Which leads to something else -- the day that I am in another serious R, will my SO understand when I go through periodic bouts of feeling worthless? Will he get tired of reassuring me that I'm OK? Don't guys like women with self-esteem and self-confidence?

Yes, we do. We also know that everyone has times when they need a little help. Marriage is a partnership where we help each other on bad days. When both have bad days, you just call in sick, and stay in bed together. (don't we wish?)
You got someone that took but didn't give back. I am speaking of emotionally, I know he did give in some ways.
I am not sure of what to tell you about this part. I am looking for the day when you WANT that next relationship and when you think you are ready for it. You are ready in most ways - your mind probably knows that. You need someone that is as good, as supportive, and as mature as you are. That narrows the field but you can find someone. Do you have faith in this?
That's not a trick question. What do you really think?

Don't get me wrong. I am much happier now than I've been in a long time. I feel much better now. I feel free. I look back now and I wonder WHAT WAS I THINKING when I was having all of those doubts about the D.

I should tease you, but it was too big a thing - too important, too serious. You needed the time so that you would be sure. Now you are, and that is the only way it would work.
Free is good. Now, how can freedom serve you?

On continued conversation with XH as time goes on.
Sometimes I wonder if it would be best if I never hear from him again.

I suggest you put that chapter behind you, and see just how good life can be without that kind of abusive relationship. I vote for NC if you do.

SS asked:
One more thing (grin) - Thanksgiving....... how did it FEEL this year?

Hmmmm.....just different.

OK, you aren't going to get away with that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I want to know what felt good, and what felt bad, or uncomfortable.

BTW,
Orchid is right about the WS. If it was about you, they would help you make changes, and encourage you, but it's about their faults, not about yours.


Daisy, and Milkshake - you two have come a long way too, but remember this is a journey (this thing called life) and the trick is to enjoy the ride anyway, despite all the problems. I don't mean while you are in the middle of terrible marriage problems, but you should be looking for a future, knowing there will be one, and believing that it will be happy.

All of us need to find ways to be happy no matter what is given to us. My personal opinion is that it's part of the test.

Sometimes it takes a while, but never give up on happiness.

SS