I am a MM, 35 y.o., no kids.
My wife is soon to be 35.

We met 8 years ago. I was married at the time, she had a long-term live-in boyfriend. I was a musician in a band and she was a cocktail waitress working a club I played in.

When I saw her, it was literally like sparks in my head...I shyly introduced myself a few times on repeated visits (her club was in a town 25 miles from mine) and eventually gave her my email address. We started a long and very heavy email correspondence, and saw each other when we could. By the 6th month, I was divorcing my wife, her BF was out of the house, and I had moved in. We married a little over a year later after my divorce was finalized.

I have never been happier than I am with her. She is truly the love of my life. We have had a wonderful life together, traveling, helping each other, supporting each other, doing everything together.

However...fast-forward to today...
We are currently separated after she discovered I had been unfaithful. It soon came out that she also had an affair. D-Day was July 27. I've been living with a friend and she lives in our apartment.

My infidelity consisted of a somewhat-long-term affair (just over a year) and a handful of one-night stands. Two of the women had met my wife at some point, one she knew casually (neither were the A).

My liaisons were pretty non-emotional, even the long-term one - I wasn't in love with her, I never planned to leave my W for her, but there were times where I could tell she was probably falling in love with me and wished I would leave my W.
That's the last thing I wanted. And it turned into a "if I stop this affair, she will freak out and tell my W everything or sabotage me in some way." She even threatened me with such by being nice one day and mean the next - a way of keeping me on a leash, I think. That fear, I think, kept me in the A for longer than I really wanted to be.

This A and the OWS's (valid abbreviation?) were aided by the fact that I still play in a band, and a popular and attractive one at that. That made it easier for me to "sin," to do things that for other men may have been more difficult, and that difficulty may have stopped them from cheating.
I also have a very good day job, and have been moderately successful career-wise, using the band life as a supplement and weekend activity.

Meanwhile my W, I realize now, started to outgrow my lifestyle. She graduated college (a goal of hers when I met her and I helped her attain), got a good job, lost a bunch of weight...and then looked at me and realized "he sucks with money, he's off on the weekends in a band, probably getting hit on left and right..." and that combination of factors led her to have her own A.
In her defense, hers only lasted 2-4 weeks before the truth came out. She was extremely guilty about the A and was about to tell me, when she discovered my cell phone bill and calls to my A and to other women.

When D-Day came, she threw me out and I've been out since. At first, the real truth didn't come out, and we have both learned more and horrible truths about each other's indiscretions over the course of August and early September. She discovered some of the truth of my A by calling the girl directly and questioning her - and my former A was honest with her.
Now, the real truths are out, all of them.

Where we stand currently, in light of all of this:

**We are speaking to each other regularly, and sometimes we meet for drinks or dinner, I'm over there sometimes and she drops by my place sometimes...sometimes in nice/loving ways, sometimes she's screaming at me.

** She has basically said "I still love you and miss you, but you've damaged me and I fear you will do it again so I don't know if I want you back."

** I have eliminated ALL OW from my life. All of them. I barely talk to my Mom! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I cut off all contact with my A over a month ago, a few weeks after D-Day, saying "I don't want to be with you I want to work on my marriage."

** My W is still seeing her A. He lives on the other side of the country, but they are in phone/IM contact and one of them flies in/out to see the other at least twice a month so far. At first she hid this from me, but after discovering one weekend by accident that he had flown in to see her, I asked her to just be honest with me and tell me when she was leaving/he was coming out. Her rationale is "I don't know if I want you back, maybe I want him instead."
He apparently possesses all of my qualities with none of my negatives (her words).

** As of right now, the root cause for my cheating seems to be related to deep insecurities in me. I crave attention, approval, from others on a constant basis. Sometimes it's helped, as in any career successes, but obviously it has also hurt. I've read the Dr. Lusterman book "Infidelity: A Survival Guide" and I seem to fit the description of a "Don Juan," one who loves the thrill of attention from other women but also is in love with his wife and his marriage.

** I am "unofficially" giving us a deadline - not an imposed one, of course, but one that she has helped determine: she is saying she might leave town and move to be with her new BF on the other side of the country, possibly in the next few months. She has what she considers valid reasons for this - "our town is tainted by us and your A's" "he is wonderful and stable" "I can start a new life"...but then she also recognizes it as a crazy notion, she's even said "part of what keeps me here is my love for you"...plus her Mom, her job, and her friends are here.

Right now, I am waiting. Patiently. And fixing myself, and trying to become the man she wants to be married to. Not just for her, either, but for me. I need to grow up, and come up to her level.
We're both in therapy right now. I will be quitting my band as soon as finances allow (I'm currently paying rent in 2 places so she and her Mom can stay in our apartment).

I am in a humbled mode, not seeking anyone's attention, not opening myself to OW, going through my daily existence with MYSELF and HER as the only things on my mind.
I crave the days & nights when my W is being loving and caring towards me, and I am crushed when she is lambasting me and hurling insults at me.

But I'm being patient, and realizing she needs to do what she needs to do. Hopefully the anger and rage will calm down, and her love for me will be able to come out more regularly again, and she will decide it's time to start working on US, give up her BF, and start going to counseling together. Every day I get a little more hope that that could happen.

But if she doesn't...if she chooses to run away to her BF and leave us behind for good...at least I can say I tried. At least I gave it my best shot, and it didn't work, and ultimately a lot of it (not all of it of course) is MY fault and my doing. I will still fix my flaws and grow up, and maybe MAYBE some other time either another woman could benefit from my repairs,...or...perhaps my W could come back. I'm not optimistic about that, though.

I'm spending these next few months being patient and letting her figure out what she wants to do. It's difficult, especially since we're still in contact and we have good and bad days.

She has given me SOME hope - saying "I love you still and would love to have you back" and "here is a list of things you need to do if we work it out" (including having my actions be transparent and questioned constantly), and even "would you want to come with me to my therapist or should we go to yours?"

I am willing to do what it takes. As I read on another board, "I should be willing to paint my butt yellow and stand on main street with a smile" if she asks. I am. She is in control now. But she doesn't feel in control, she says she's totally alone and confused about what she wants.

I'll take that for now, at least there's part of her that still cares!

Enough rambling...so, after all this - anyone know where I should be posting, where I should begin?

Welcome to marriagebuilders. This forum is a fine place to post.

I will tell you that marriages that start off as affairs have a less than 5% chance of making it. But maybe the MB plan can pull this one off.

You will need to do all that your wife has suggested. She has the right idea.

Also you can start in Plan A. Read all about it on the link in my signature line. Stick with us and we will help you through this.

If you are really serious about wanting to work things out, then read the book Surviving an Affair. It is wonderful.

I had a one time affair with my ex boyfriend about 2 months ago. I'm staying with my sister and he's staying at our house. At first, he was naturally extremely angry and talking about divorce. Now, not 2 weeks after he found out, he is doing much better...thanks to the Lord's help and lots and lots of prayer. I know that God is working in his heart and mine. He is now saying things like, "When I'm ready to go to counseling with you, I will."

Even if your wife is unwilling to do anything right now to work on things, there are things you can do to show her that you want to work things out. The book I mentioned describes lots of good advice. I've taken it, and I firmly believe that it's played a role in my H's softening up as of late.

Trust in the Lord. He will direct your path.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> Welcome to marriagebuilders. This forum is a fine place to post.

I will tell you that marriages that start off as affairs have a less than 5% chance of making it. But maybe the MB plan can pull this one off.

You will need to do all that your wife has suggested. She has the right idea.

Also you can start in Plan A. Read all about it on the link in my signature line. Stick with us and we will help you through this. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure if we're at either the Plan A or Plan B stage.

Plan A & B both require MY separation from the lover - DONE.
They also require HER separation from the lover - NOT DONE.
And, they are based on the idea that both the spouses are committed to TRYING to work it out.
She is not at that stage.

In fact, she has very bad days and so-so days.

The BAD days are like today, just now:
She found some emails I had written to these girls back in March, where I was basically being a complete and total player. To hear her repeat those emails to me disgusts me now. But as of reading them to me, all of 30 minutes ago, she has basically said "never speak to me again, you're a sick pig."

But then...yesterday and the day before were so-so days she was saying things like "if I say I don't love you don't listen because my heart and mind are fighting with each other" and "if we're going to work it out here's what needs to happen (this came earlier today before she read the emails)." But then she usually says something about not wanting to abandon her A and not sure if we can work it out.

I think she's doing everything she can to kill what love she has remaining for me. I think she would rather despise me and start a new life with this guy than to act on the part that still loves me and would like to reconcile.

And that's a shame, because I can and will do what she needs. If only she could believe that I'm serious about making this work....

Plan A is the starting place. You might want to read through it again. Most folks go into Plan A when the spouse is NOT separated from the other person.

Plan A is to show your spouse that there IS a future with you, that you can and will meet their emotional needs.

You need to stay firmly in Plan A for several months, and expect NOTHING from her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> Plan A is the starting place. You might want to read through it again. Most folks go into Plan A when the spouse is NOT separated from the other person.

Plan A is to show your spouse that there IS a future with you, that you can and will meet their emotional needs.

You need to stay firmly in Plan A for several months, and expect NOTHING from her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will re-read Plan A, I must have missed something.
I think one big difference here is that while she is the most betrayed of the two of us, she had an A right before D-Day and is still with him...and I don't really begrudge her that. I wish he were out of the picture, because I know (and actually, I think SHE knows) that he complicates issues and is clouding her judgment.

But she's also feeling put-upon and betrayed and of course is going to turn to the 1st available and attractive man that cares for her, to possibly "rescue" her.

I have no expectations of her, but it's VERY hard to do that. I'm trying to do exactly what she asks, I'm putting up with the tirades and the scathing insults, and I'm there to give her love and emotional support when she's ready for it.
And I'm promising patience and letting her do what she needs (talking to her and loving her even though I know that next week she is flying out to see him), but it can be SO HARD in bad times like today, when I just want to reach out and say "but honey, I'm changing, don't forget that!"

I just hope she's not successful in completely eliminating me from her heart.

Here is something that just might help you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">7 Powerful Tactics to Break Free From
the Affair and Stop it NOW!

By Dr. Robert Huizenga

1) Act Happy. Be as cheerful as possible. Be positive. Put on this behavior when you have contact with your spouse. Prepare yourself to act this way. Practice if need be. Be an actor, actress if need be. Fake it, if you must. Fake it til you truly do get to the point where you experience your life as positive. (It really is, you know!)

2) Get a life. Rekindle old hobbies or interests that you have discarded but still interest you. Try out new hobbies or interests. Think about what you really liked doing when you were 6 years old. Start doing that. (One coaching client gave up dancing, which was a passion, for her family and husband. Once she discovered his affair, she took it up again. She loved it. It was therapeutic. But, boy did he have a problem with it!).

3) Focus on 4 key words. Every day, every hour and every minute if need be, plaster your mind with these 4 life-saving words: I WILL MAKE IT! This becomes your mantra. Wake up with it. Put it on your mirror. Eat lunch with it. Go to sleep with it. Tell, convey in every which way to your spouse that you WILL MAKE IT. Say, "I will make it! I prefer to make it with you (if that is what you REALLY want), but if that doesn't happen, I will make it without you. Either way, I want you to know that I will make it." State with erect, confident body language, unblinking, direct eye contact and calm, firm, consistent tone of voice.

4) To-the-point small talk. Make conversations with your spouse brief and to the point. Talk only about the solutions to specific problems that need to be addressed, such a particular bills, household or children concerns. Let silence prevail if he/she wants to 'hook' you into melodrama. Politely but firmly end such conversations.

5) Tend to agree. Try to find the kernal of truth in what your spouse is saying and agree with it. Acknowledge it. He/she says, "I don?t love you anymore." You say, "It certainly seems that way. Thank you for your truthfulness." He/she says, "I'm not sure what I want." You say, "Yes, it must be confusing for you." He/she says, "I'm thinking of moving out." You say, "Do you have an idea of when you're going to do that. Knowing would help me plan for my activites."

6) Expand your social relationships, including those of the OPPOSITE SEX. Make new friends. Go to lunch. Surround yourself with interesting people who have the potential to care about you. Rekindle old friendships that have faded. With the opposite sex? Yes! I?m not talking about a revenge affair or sleeping with somone.I?m not talking about dating. I'm talking about being friends and learning about you and how you relate, especially to those of the opposite sex.

7) Get sexy in a healthy way. Get in shape. Lose weight. Run. Walk. Exercise. Eat right. Enjoy your body. Take supplements. Take extreme care of your body. Begin to feel healthy and healthy is sexy.

Focus on one of these tactics and begin now. Don't wait.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CAUTION: I would be extremely careful on point 6 for it is so easy that a vulnerable BS, such as yourself, fall into an EA [which could develop into a full blown affair] with a member of the opposite sex. You can avoid this by setting up boundaries that you will not violate, such as no confiding to a member of the opposite sex [other than your spouse] about your personal life and no spending time alone with an attractive member of the opposite sex. The last thing you want is to have an affair of your own and make the saving and rebuilding of your marriage practically impossible.

<small>[ October 30, 2004, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
[QB] Here is something that just might help you.

[QUOTE]7 Powerful Tactics to Break Free From
the Affair and Stop it NOW!

Thanks for this advice, but it seems to be more geared towards a FS dealing with a WS...I am both the WS and the BS, more the WS than she is.

However - my A's are over, the OW are all gone completely from my life.
Her OM is still in her life as daily phone calls, emails, IM's, and twice-monthly visits (he recently relocated to the East Coast, we're on the West).

So...from the perspective of putting on a brave face so my W sees I can be strong and not be damaged by her indiscretions - my indiscretions were far worse and I am now playing the role of "I want you back but you might want to go to him instead so I'm going to do what it takes."

Ok then, why not consider reading 12 Unattractive, Ugly, Typical Tact...he Affair and Guarantee Their Own Misery?

1) Say “I love you”
2) Criticize, complain, whine, nag.
3) Say “I’ve changed”.
4) Argue, Reason, Plead

These 4 points are SO INCREDIBLY relevant to my situation. I've been guilty of #1 and #3, not so much #2 and #4. But on #1 and #3, I have been EXTREMELY guilty.
I will stop.

She probably DOESN'T like the "I love you's" when they're said after a difficult discussion. She DOES say "I love you" back after a nice discussion or healthy talk, but not after she's been railing on me.

She probably DOESN'T believe that I've changed, even though I have made small efforts, and I'm working on bigger efforts. She's going to have to see it with her own eyes, and it has to be genuine. And it's going to be, I need to do these things for myself first and her second.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
I need to do these things for myself first and her second.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There you go. If you do these things for your benefit and she does not appreciate them then it will be her loss and another woman's gain.

drop the labels...

you have lived most of your adult relationships acting with in great disrepect to the actions and words committment...

you have yet to live a committed life...
so inspite of you being WS/BS and you wife being WS/BS the time is at hand for you to take a stand of the meaning of fidelity and what it means to you..

this is addressed to you regardless and inspite of your wives actions...

because you are the one posting here..
no one can change or make her your wife do a things....you can only change you...

you are way to focused on what she did has done...
what she says has said...etc..

you need to pull it together on your end....

focus on YOU....
and move from there in showing her and you in actions a man who is moving farther and farther away from being the type of man who can ever take and use another person....

good news is no children..so atleast neither of you are dragging minor innocents into your chaos....


so plan A is exactly for you...
plan a so that you remove yourself from the powerstruggle over whose indescression are worse...cause you both have enough ammo to keep that going on and on longer than the engigizer bunny....

read up on plan...
you need to show your wife that for you all chaos of involving a third party in to your world and into your universe is gone and done...

you can argue with the posters here all you want about her behaviors...and her current choices...
but there is nothing you or us can do about that....
there is only control in you and your reactions...and if you want guidance on how to address and move past the chaos....

then people here can help...

you plan A your spouse
inspite of and regardless of their actions and choices...

So...from the perspective of putting on a brave face so my W sees I can be strong and not be damaged by her indiscretions - my indiscretions were far worse and I am now playing the role of "I want you back but you might want to go to him instead so I'm going to do what it takes."

I don't understand this statement...

you are both damaged by all the indescressions...
you both need to eventually address this pain...
this is never ever to be swept under the carpet...but both need to be able to see hope and love in dealing with the pain....
and you are not playing a role...
you are stating for the first time..
I believe in you and me...and the ability to be there for one another exclusively...perhaps for the first time ever...


you set your sights on an honorable goal...
where you and your spouse..really do become a soft place of the other to fall...

ARK will try to bump my plan A guideline post...