Last night, WH was home when I got here. He said hello. That's it. I asked if he wanted some dinner. So we went out for burgers. Talked some politics, baseball, etc.

When we got home, WH worked on scuba gear in the garage. When he came in, he started playing the piano, and asked me to sing a song. It went pretty well.

When we finished, he got up, rubbed my shoulders a little, and kissed me on the neck. Very nice. That's it.

This morning, however, he was all closed up. Didn't talk much. He was getting some things together. I asked if he was going to drop some of the things off this morning. He looked kind of angry, and said "No. I'm dropping it off on my way home." He then left. I hugged him and said "I'm here for you."

I called him while he was on the road. Told him I'm here for him. He can talk to me about anything. I will listen.

He embarked on his "I'm just not doing good. I've killed part of myself. I'll never get it back. It's like breaking the spirit of a horse."

I told him all the things I admired about him. How he was still in there. Things would get better. Baby steps. Tried to embark on the conversation that Steve Harley talked to me about.

WH doesn't want to talk to anyone. He is very pessimistic about the future in general. Says he can't work on our M while he is feeling this way about himself.

At the end of the conversation, he said "When you asked me if I was dropping those things off this morning, it was just like things used to be. You are trying to put me on a leash. The walls just started to come up."

Very long story short, now that I've quit crying (I didn't let him know that), I feel like I can't say or do anything right.

I just don't know what to do. It all kind of seems hopeless right now. I know nothing of what he is doing. It seems like he doesn't want me to know anything. And it also seems like he wants to do anything to not have to be home in the evening.

Is this normal withdrawl? If so, what can I do?

K

K-

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</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">((((((K)))))))

They don't know the impact of the words that spill from their lips. Maybe someday they will, but not right now. Try not to take it too seriously or too personally. I know it's hard.

- Kimmy

Thanks, Kimmy.....

It IS hard!

But these are the kinds of things WH has been saying to me for the past 3 years.

I know it's one way of his manipulating me....to make me ask no questions, and to not try and get anything out of him.

I guess I will just have to change what I say, when I say it, or say nothing at all.

He's totally unaccountable for everything he does. STILL!!! That's how he was during the A (the past 3 years).

So, do I wait for him to find himself again?

I have heard from him (and others he has told this to) that OW was SOOOOOOOOOOO good to him!

There's never been anything I wouldn't do for him. I think I've always been good to him.

Is he still foggy? (seems like he made his decision to come home, but maybe now regrets it)

I DON'T KNOW!!!

K, first off, I don't want to go against anything Steve is telling you. H and I have been talking to Steve on and off for months since d-day and he's been great. I guess I'm giving myself a disclaimer if what I'm about to say isn't very MB-like.

OK, I am all for Plan Aing to help get the WS out of the fog. I also believe the BS should be able to keep their self-esteem in the process. If I'm remembering correctly your H asked to come home. He said he wanted to end it with the OW and get back with you. If he is choosing to be closed off, crabby, and not open with you, then maybe he doesn't deserve to be back yet. If any OTs think I'm being to hardline here feel free to speak up. I realize that what worked for me might not work for others.

Withdrawal is rough. I think on this sight Dr. Harley says you really can't even Plan A during withdrawal sometimes. I was able to, but I sure didn't get a whole lot back. H did respect me, even though he sure didn't think he was in-love with me. He also knew that if he was with her he wasn't going to be with me, let alone living with me. I never had to Plan B so I acknowledge different dynamics are working in your situation. However, I don't think you should be penalized for asking your H to be accountable to you. If he wants to recover, and you need that, then it's the least he can do.

My H told me during his withdrawal that the OW stole his affection. It was difficult for him to even kiss me. His affection has come back and it happened because he had NC. Can you just be straight with your H? Forget about the bubble baths right now, because maybe he can't accept it yet. But can you tell him you want to be there for him, but you're not willing to be hurt by his comments or his coldness, and definitely can't do this if he is in contact. Also, some things the WS should keep to themselves, unless you ask.

My H needed to be in IC to help him figure things out. Would your H be willing to do this? Just remember that your H doesn't have to determine how everything will be. You do have choices. At one point I just realized that I can't control whether H would fold or not and resume contact with OW. I did have a choice about what I would do if he did. That's not to say that I didn't spend many hrs. sobbing and writing on MB. With H I tried to show strength as much as I could. Finally I gave our M over to God mant times over.

Hope this wasn't too preachy! I just feel for you. Take care! CV

K,,, GUILT in the thing JMO.

It may not be him regreting coming home its the fact that he did what he did and now your there in his face ,, facing the person he hurt so very much ... Then its the , he needs to work on this M and he in reality would love for life to just go back to ,,,, Hi honey I'm home .... Witch he knowns can't happen and has to find his way to deal with what he did ,,, TO YOU , HIMSELF, And unfortunately OW.

My H was the Knight in Shining Armor to the HO ,,, He fixed everything for her gave her back her confidence that all men aren't bad ,,, knowing FULL well he would leave her ......

So the guilt piled on ,,, YES it sucks that they should even give a crap about OP ,,, and how they hurt them ,,, BUT they do . and until they realize that OP was a BIG PERSON who made a choice and they are not there responsiablity it takes time .

So what I am saying is they sometimes have away of blaming the BS ... take crap out on you ...

And I know this sounds bad but given time IF there is NO CONTACT it will subside ........

He sounds like he is still lokking to BLAME and direct his anger and frustration on YOU instead on himself for everything that happened ...

Hang in there K ,,,

Sooooo.....

Maybe changing tactics would help with him. I know he has to get thru this.

He doesn't like it if I ask him questions like "have you heard from or seen OW". He gets defensive about her "She won't contact me. She's more like I am. When she's done, it's over."

These things I know are not true. He broke up with her once before, and she called him the next night, left him several messages (one of which I intercepted and erased.

I guess I will keep on with what I was doing when he wasn't home. My own thing (which truly wasn't much). Ask him no questions. Don't even Plan A him. He seems to NOT care.

Does he have to get thru withdrawl before he is willing to work on anything? I feel like it's a waiting game now.

Send him off in the morning with a "hope you have a better day"

Our conversations are always the same. I keep trying to re-inforce his good points. He keeps telling me he can't get over this.

And on top of it all, my eardrum is ruptured, infected, and keeps draining all the time.

I'm miserable. Physically and emotionally. I'm not going to let WH know, tho.

I'm trying to be strong. Reading books. I'm reading Getting Through to the Man You Love right now. Also have Divorce Remedy, HN/HN, Love Busters, etc.

I feel like I need a puppet master to work my mouth for me. And direct my actions.

I AM AT A LOSS!!!

Okay, done with whining.....onto some action.

Your opinions please!

I feel like setting WH down, telling him that he said he was moving home so we could work on things. How does he plan to start working on thing?

I want to say "Are you in contact with OW?" He would surely be angry about that, no doubt.

So, I feel like saying, "What is your plan to help me regain my trust in you?"

But, I guess I already know these answers. He doesn't want to talk about anything. He wants to get over HIMSELF first. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Do I just wait? Say nothing? Do nothing?

WHAT????

K, what gives him the right to be angry if you ask him if he's still in contact with OW? He's been in friggin contact with her for 3 yrs. Sorry, in certain ways I've been an excellant Plan Aer, and in other ways I just suck at it. I just get so angry when the BS feels like they have to walk on eggshells around the WS. Who knows, maybe I did the exact same thing.

Your H might not be ready to do the work of recovery, but IMHO he can work like HE%% to keep to NC. And if you are allowing him back home after all the crappola, and just when you were starting to feel more positive, he can be an open book so you feel safe. I'm not saying he has to pretend he's not missing the "B", but he also doesn't have to tell you crap like, "I'll never get over this!"

I remember in the beginning of this for me I had this thought. "You would think that H and oW have been the ones who were betrayed and treated like crap for 9 months." I will say if he keeps to NC it will get better. Would he consider coming here and talking with some of the FWSs? Maybe they can help him defog a bit. If you could get him to talk to Steve I think he helped my H. CV

I guess I will just have to change what I say, when I say it, or say nothing at all.


Gee - that sounds like a great life. What if your sister, or daughter, were saying these same things to you? How would you respond? Would you say "yes,thats it! Never speak your mind again - don't speak unless spoken to, when he enters the room, look down so you don't gaze directly at him"
I don't believe you would say that to any woman.

I like what CV55 said.

If he is choosing to be closed off, crabby, and not open with you, then maybe he doesn't deserve to be back yet.

I get the feeling you are trying to do everything, say everything, be everything. That is too much for any of us to handle. He came back to you because he has feelings for you, and because it is the right thing to do. Plan A is good - you have done some awesome things during this time. You told him you would be there for him. That is huge. But that doesn't mean you have to completely give up yourself or break your own spirit. If you do that, what will be left?

I would suggest you try to look at the bigger picture. Not just today, not just tonight, but what type of realtionship you both will want later. You do not want to live in fear that anytime you say "are you going to drop things off today" he will become sullen and angry and assume you're trying to keep him on a leash.

I too am wondering if he is really ready to come back.

I would suggest you listen to SH's advice - I am no expert.
But this does not sound like Plan A - it sounds like plan doormat - and at the end of plan doormat, what will be left of the lovely, caring, kind, vibrant woman you are?

You said it yourself:

There's never been anything I wouldn't do for him. I think I've always been good to him.

I am sure you HAVE been good to him! Rise up and claim the good marriage you deserve. Don't settle for less.

Consider yourself hugged.

You all are soooo good to me! Thank you!

I guess I just need to get some backbone back, and say what I mean. Let him know how this makes me feel.

I feel kind of like he forced himself back home. He didn't talk to me about it first. He told me that we couldn't work on things if he wasn't here.

It's my opinion that he's not really ready.

I tried to talk to him like SH told me to. He's not having it....he won't hear it.

But I'm trying to wade thru his withdrawl, and discern what is withdrawl, and fog talk, and what is just plain not ready.

He's really made no effort to be forthcoming with any information about himself, or what he is doing.

The only thing I know, is that he keeps saying this is all very hard on him. I KNOW IT IS....I FEEL IT WITH HIM.

Then, of course, I keep hearing what he said the first night (10-6-2004) when he came here to talk about his coming home. He was angry and agitated the whole time. He said "I gave up a good relationship for us."

He told his sister that OW has been really good to him, that he loves her, but he loves me more.
He says he's not happy when he's with OW, and he's not happy when he's with me.

Soooooooooooooooooo, WHAT NOW?

I am afraid I have not followed all of your posts, so I am a little unclear about a few things.
Where was he before he moved back home? With her? The reason I ask is this - if you were to tell him to leave, and come back when he is 100% committed to working on a new and better marriage with you, where would he go?
When he says he "gave up a good realtionship" to be with you, I wonder if he really gave it up all by himself? Or did she help him out of it?
Something just doesn't sound right here.

Then, of course, I keep hearing what he said the first night (10-6-2004) when he came here to talk about his coming home. He was angry and agitated the whole time. He said "I gave up a good relationship for us."

If it were such a great relationship, why did he give it up? Something is not right here.

He says he's not happy when he's with OW

Ok, I can accept this. But why? Why isn't he happy when he is with her?
After all:

He told his sister that OW has been really good to him, that he loves her

See what I mean? Actually, let me rephrase that: I see what you mean <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> this is very confusing.

It is no wonder why you can't sort through it all - he isn't being upfront with you.
I am wondering if he forced himself back into your home because he has no place else to go?

This is just my own opinion - I am scared to even pen these words, for fear that I am encouraging you to do the wrong thing - but I am wondering if you need to say:
"H, I love you, I remain committed to our M. I know that I have made some mistakes in the past, that I took you for granted, that I contributed to the breakdown of our M. I am sincerely sorry for that. I want to work with you to build a new, and better, marriage. But I need you to be committed along with me. I need you to be open with me, and share with me. I need you to understand that I am hurting too. If you are not 100% committed to our marriage, and our future together, then it would be better for you to stay some place else until you are ready. I do not want you to move out, I would miss you terribly. But it is bringing me too much pain to know that you are not committed to me. When you are ready to committ, 100%, to me and to our future together, please let me know, and we will dicuss your moving back in. I still would like to be here for you, to support you. But I need you to support this effort as well.

I may be off base here.
But I think you are teaching him that it is ok to treat you with disrespect. It seems like you are building your future on a very shaky foundation.

this says it all:

It's my opinion that he's not really ready.

WH moved out last November to his own apartment in the town where he works. OW is divorced, works in the same building with WH. She lives about 20 miles away from WH in another town.

He wrote me this letter (after the first Plan B -3 weeks long):

"I just wanted to tell you that I feel like I have gotten myself sorted out, and if you will have me back, I feel now that my love for you is very clear.

I have the desire to love and romance you and be the husband I never was. I think about you constantly, and I desire your love for always.

Let me know by e-mail or whatever, and I will resolve things on my end once and for all.

Your lover and best friend.....WH"

We went on a "date". He never called for a week after that. Back to Plan B.

The weekend before he wanted to come home again, he told me he was going to break up with OW on Friday. When Friday came, he was too busy to break up with her. (However, he called her at work that very afternoon.)

He took her out for his BD to a place we were supposed to go to together (in Plan B still - didn't send him anything for his BD)

Now, for my BD present, he has given up his apartment and is moving back home. He said he still means what he said in the letter. But, he said we need to be together in order to work on things. So, he has moved a few clothes and small items home.

If I send him away, he will probably go live with OW. The whole things a freakin' mess. I was doing really well on my own til all this happened.

I didn't want to squash his efforts, so I let him come home. He says he sent a letter to OW saying he was tired of the guilt, the lies, and what he had become (along with "I probably said some other things too" - he couldn't remember). He boxed he cell phones up and returned them. I have no real proof of any of this.

He says they haven't talked since he sent her the letter but "this is killing her".

So, what's your take on this situation? I would really like some opinions!

K

I do remember your story now. Sorry that I made you repeat it! I am trying to work, and post at the same time. Bad girl that I am!

I am going to try to quote CJ here (as in FaithfulnewCJ). His actions need to match his words .
Right now - his actions clearly do not match his words. He says he wants to be with you, says he wnats to work things out, but what is he doing to help the efforts? Yeah, I know, fog, withdrawl, etc, but what is he doing to support his own recovery?

I can understand why you let him come back when he did - his claims that he needed to be home to work on things. All that makes sense. But I think the two of you need to have an actual plan of action. Preferably in writing.
Things like.
1. No contact.
2. If OW tries to contact him, he will let you know
3. Counseling
4. An agreement that each of you will be 100% honest with each other. Honest about your feelings, your desires. This is not about you trying to keep him on a leash (although its not a bad idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) You will be open and honest with him, and ask that he respond in the same manner.

K - you said it yourself - you were doing OK before he came back. You know you can do it again. Right now you choose to work on your M - you choose to build a better R. He needs to make this choice as well. If he can't make that choice, and then follow up with actions, then he can choose to live somewhere else.

Here is my qualifier - all of this is up to you. This is if you WANT to continue to work at this. If you WANT to build a new and better future for yourself.

I think you are probably right - if he moves out, he will likely move in with her. He will likely go back to that life where he feels like crap, he misses you, he loses respect for himself. But you deserve to have a life here. You deserve a chance to be happy - with him or without him.

It sounds like you are prepared to do the hard work of recovery. You are in this for the long haul. But you need to be treated with some respect, and his actions need to follow his words.

Thanks WOF5....

The plan is exactly what SH talked to me about. But, like I said, WH doesn't really want to talk about it. He seems pretty wrapped up in himself.
His misery, HIS feelings.

When he comes home tonight, I will try to talk to him about a plan.

1. No contact whatsoever

2. Total honesty on both sides.

3. He should tell me if OW contacts him (or he contacts her).

4. We need some real help. He won't go for this.

And I think your words are good. Right now, I choose to work on our marriage. I choose to give 100%. I choose to have a happier, better life.

If WH chooses these things also, then he needs to act on his choices. If he does not, then he needs to choose somewhere else to live (he does still have his apartment until the end of the month).

I don't know what he will say. I only know that I cannot go on like THIS.

SH says to present the "Have a Great Marriage" seminar in November close to where we live, as an information gathering seminar. The seminar has nothing to do with affairs. Just how to have a great marriage.

I want to be good to WH, and I want him to be good to me. I know I deserve it. I know we can do it.

But he has to try too.

K

Will pray for your strength tonight - and your clarity. That you would see the situation clearly, that you would have the right words to say, and most of all that you BOTH would treat each other with respect. You deserve this.

Let me know tomorrow how things go.

I think your husband is doing about as well as most do at this point. He is home and has no contact with the OW. This is the hardest part. I would try to do enjoyable things with him, and not talk about the relationship just now.

He knows that he has to have no contact with OW. Wait and see how he does on that. Otherwise don't expect too much from him for awhile.

When it is driving you crazy, come here and whine. We know how you feel.

Thanks for your replies....

Two different opinions. HMMMMMM.....

I don't know which way to turn.

K

Well, Miss K, you don't have to make a decision right now. What is the hurry?

BELIEVER......YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!!!!

I will feel things out. STILL IN PLAN A.

K

K - You have gone through a lot of problems. There is no hurry right now. Take your time. This will work out.