It has been about 6 weeks...I cant even remember what day it is anymore! I only slept for 30 minutes last night. Got a call from mom about 5:30, "daddy may not make it thru the night" We were on our way to the Cher concert. We decided to go to the concert. I called after the concert to see how he was. He was "resting" peacefully. I spoke to my Uncle who said it was grim. I had decided to go ahead and go out this morning. I was up all night long, despite taking sleeping pills.

Well, being up all night long, I started to think. Think really hard. My H has been so withdrawn, so distant with me. I asked him about it a few days ago. He said he was thinking of how he was going to handle it when the baby comes. It is getting closer, he says...WHAT?? It is still 5 months away! Whatever. He hasn't approached me in weeks for SF, something we did everyday at the beginning of the R. He hasn't reassured me, told me he loves me, told me I am the one, told me anything...just keeps getting more and more distant.

Well, this mroning I called him on it. I flat out told him I thought he was seeing her again. Why else would he be so distant. AT first he said "I'm not saying a word". I told him his actions speak louder than words nowadays. I told him I cant go on this way, that as soon as we bury my dad, he is free to go. Roll of the eyes from him and "here we go again". He said he has a lot going thru his mind...I repeated out loud what I thought was going thru his mind


This marriage is never going to work

I shouldn't have given up OW

She is better in bed than you are

Maybe I should just go and be with her so I can raise this GIRL!

This is so boring, I dont want to live this way.

His response was "yea, I wont deny having thought about all those things"

Well, here is the problem...when he first came home and out of the fog, so to speak <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , he couldn't BELIEVE he EVER thought things like that. He couldn't believe that he couldn't see the future for what it could be and not for what it was! He KNEW that I was the one and he was sooooo happy that he married me and couldnt' believe he doubted it! Well, now he IS doubting it again. He is NOT seeing our future for what it could be.

I am so sick of this. I am NOT going to go on this way. I thought this was behind us, but you know what...I dont think it ever will be. I dont think I want him anymore. I deserve better than this and I wont let him betray me AGAIN! HE is the fool! HE will look like the idiot on national TV...GOOD! So be it!

Hi Mom, all those thoughts and insecurities will continue to pop up. A's are hard enough. Throw in a baby and, really, does life get much worse. Well, yes it does. Your poor dad is on his last legs and whether or not you feel it is the focus of your state of mind, it is bound to have a massive impact on your life at the moment.

I don't think you should make any major decisions at the moment. There's too much going on in your life. Your dad is heading back to his maker, and a baby (girl) will soon be here which will be a constant reminder of your husband's infidelity. I really don't think now is the time to do anything drastic. Your rollercoaster has some spins and turns that some of us have been spared. I would just TRY to focus on life one day at a time. In the big picture of things, a few more months won't hurt and then perhaps you can see if you can deal with the situation or not. Kind thoughts, TT

Incidentally, I can relate to the sentiments regarding the baby girl (if it is). I have 3 girls and I would hate the OW to give my husband something I didn't. Never wanted anything other than the beautiful children I got, but nobody else should have the right to change the dynamics of our family.

What happened to a commitment of NC? The recovery seemed to stop right when he saw her in what he described as a professional non-personal situation when he found out the sex of the OC.

Is he unwilling to give up that NH?

Just a month ago he was willing to do anything to keep his family together, including move...or am I not remembering his resolve correctly.

You need to insist that he give up that NH. He will not be able to fully withdraw from OW without NC.

Then the paternity test. Then depending on the results a plan for continued NC with OW and possibly also NC with OC as well.

I believe your gut is right about the reasons for his being distant...well, he basically confirmed that everything you were thinking was correct.

I am so sorry he is making your recovery so much more difficult than it needs to be.

Have you delved into the MB materials together? Maybe you should start with the Love Busters program. You can't just be complacent in your recovery.

But, maybe you need to have everything on hold while dealing with your father.
Well, I know just about everything else is on hold in your life because of your father being so close to dying. That is making this already tenuous recovery even more stressful and difficult..

Dad is still seemingly being very self centered.

I'm sorry Mt3B..

I can't offer you any unbiased advice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I went back and read your Hs posts..compared them to his present ones..and see no difference.

I hope that Dr phil can help you.
I wish you the best.

Noodle

I forgot to mention the quarters I found in his car. about $2.00/$3.00 worth. The ONLY time he has ever carried that many quarters is when he ws stopping at pay phones to call his OW...He denied it. Said they were for coffee or something like that...yea, whatever...It is just all coming back in a big way. The distance, the withdrawn demeanor, the actions or lack thereof of making me feel secure. My gosh, that is all he did the first 3 weeks.

I wont make any major decisions right now, but I am not going to go on this way. What happend to...I wont EVER doubt our marriage again???

Oh and remember that last thread I had going about a week ago. I know he read it...did he respond to it? To reassure me? NOOOOO! Remember when he stopped posting before...he was IN CONTACT!!! although he denies it...I can tell...I KNOW in my heart he is in contact with her. Tough life Dad!

Dr Phil Thursday show!

Yea, and it still goes on!!!!

wow mom, this is tough. I have to agree with others however and say not to make any decisions while you are going throught the pain of losing your dad. Your emotions are running high.

I just read Dr. Phill's discription of the show. He certainly puts a spin on things.

Hang in there MT3B's. THis is a long road and only you know what is right for you. Just please do not make any rash decisions during this painful time.

Mom, I am sorry you are going through this. I agree with Trix, as all my red warning flags came out as I read that Dad talked to OW regarding OC at that NH. To me, the NH is a deal-breaker.

I know how hard addiction is. When I gave up smoking, I was very sick. Smoking hurt me, and I had HAD ENOUGH! I QUIT! Well, a couple weeks later, my lungs healed, and the "relaxing" thought of coffee and a smoke in the morning really appealed to me. My original reason for quitting was gone, and I had to find other reasons to keep me from picking up another pack.

Honestly, if I had gone to someone's house that smoked, regularly, I probably would not have quit back then. My resolve was very low. Sometimes very high, but sometimes very low.

I believe it is the same philosophy with seeing the OP, especially while still at such a vulnerable stage. Your H is very intelligent, but he is only human. Even though he is a doctor, and this is his job, he cannot see the OW. IMO.

Dr. Harley made that point, to even move to another STATE, for very good reasons - regarding contact with OP. This was a deal-breaker for me.

Also, why don't you go to the nursing home with him when you know OW will be there? I have asked you this before. The OW in my case, her DS was in H's Scout patrol. Since H and I reconciled, I have been to EVERY SINGLE Scout function - and the OW doesn't come anymore. If he shows his face there, yours needs to be right there with him. A united front needs to be presented to OW.

Right now, your H probably needs a LOT of help with that. You must work recovery as a team. I know it sucks facing the OW, but sometimes it has to be done. Especially in circumstances like ours. NO WAY would I have trusted my H to "do the right thing" in the beginning of our Recovery. NO WAY. That had to be earned.

Hang in there, Mom. I'm hoping and praying Dr. Phil can get through to him.

Spidey

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

Hang in there as best as you can.

You are doing very good considering the circumstances (him running into OW and the show coming out)

Ride that bucking bronco of a situation through the coming rough moments if you can squeeze out the emotional energy.

Things will either get much better very VERY soon or you will truly have reached the point of having given it YOUR all and then you could walk away from it with no regrets.

The calvary (Dr. Phil) is on the way and if he can't help you fix it......well it is just not fixable.

It would seem that you are right about the change in his car. Why do you need change for coffee...he buys it from machines? Most beverage machines take dollars.

Hasn't he learned howo stupid it is to continue to tell you lies? For being so smart he sure can be dumb.

I am so sorry that he has broken his commitment to you to do everything to reassure you that he wasn't wavering in his commitment.

Reassurance, radical honesty, open book behavior is what we all require early in recovery. I had great hopes for you both but there had to be NC!
Darn it! Why can' he see that?...It is so obvious.

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Trix ]</small>

Hey M23B, Saw your post over here...so I moved mine from the P/C board. Anything to make it easier on you.

I'm probably going to get smacked for being optimistic....BUT here goes.....


Gosh your mind is working overtime ! You need SLEEP in the very worst of ways.

One day...you're going to come back here and remember getting suspicious and anxious over quarters and gum.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He hasn't hugged me or reassured me in weeks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think about this for a minute...remove DAD from the picture..and think about reading about the actions..the distance...the overall...cruminess seething out of the FWS during withdrawal.

I mentioned to you in another post...NOW..he IS showing classic ..classic symptoms...he's just overall self absorbed. But that's okay for now. It just happens to additionally SUCK...during a time that you need physical comfort..more than ever.

Dad is being scrutinized on national TV...he has NO closure for all this...only time will do that. I'm sure a BIG part of him is embarrassed, and humiliated on a dozen different levels...throw in an anxious stressed out wife, who's father is passing.... WOW.

Do you think you guys MAYBE...JUST MAYBE...have a whole HELL of a lot going on right now ?

You know what Mom...sometimes..you have to just throw your hands in there air and surrender. That's what helped me with the anxiety. We can only control ourselves...think about all the time and effort..EMOTIONS...you're putting into worrying about this.

DO YOUR PART...let HIM worry about doing his. We both know if he wants to see her...and continue down that path of destruction...there isn't a enough worry to prevent it..so STOP.

You know who you are...you know what you want...you know you can make it either way. Let HIM do HIS part. If he falters... and this is the MOST IMPORTANT THING SO READ CAREFULLY...IF...he faulters....it will be of NO reflection of what you did or didn't do...couldn't or couldn't do...because you're doing your best.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just dont trust the man. Will I ever trust him? dont know, doubt it. not with him acting this way and not without any reassurance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well if we all had a dollar for every time we thought THAT. Trust...a long way out. Isn't given away freely anymore...a long road to earning it.
This is early recovery. This is where you have to drag out all your resources to deal with your emotions.

Maybe Dad just feels like a big failure right now. In the midst of you going through this very difficult time...he has to live with the idea he's put so much more on your plate.

Just a thought...he did say he had a lot going on his mind.

But he IS being honest.

He's been your H for 12 years... you have 3 children together...you CAN hug him..and you NEED a hug...so get one.

Mom,

I just wanted to pop in and say <sigh> I'm so very sorry for everything that is happening in your life right now. It is more than enough to be dealing with your father's illness, but to add the problems in your marriage - TOO much.

As you know, I've been through this too many times to count. And yes, unfortunately, what we "feel" in terms of the distance that our spouses create, the withdrawal, yes, it usually means resumed contact.

In the early days, during the first one or two false recoveries, I thought that the words coming out of his mouth were true - that he really wasn't happy, that he really hadn't talked to OW, but needed to figure out some things. Proof later showed up that all those words were lies.

I see red flags also, I'm sorry to say. I think Dad - for all his intelligence in the medical field - seems unaware of the effects of withdrawal and isn't doing what he needs to get himself through it.

Spidey and I have smoking cessation in common. Oh yes, she is 100% right. Without a strong support network, I would never have successfully quit either. Some days you wake up and you mentally rationalize a return to the addiction - at least early in the process.

You go through the "one little drag won't hurt" (one little phone call won't hurt);

"I know that if I try it again, I'll realize how awful it is." (I know if I see her again, I'll realize I don't want her);

"Gee, So-and-So has been smoking for years and it never seemed to hurt him." (Gee, Tom and Jane married after their affair, and they seem happy).

All these thoughts are those of the addict in the early stages of withdrawal. The tricks the mind plays on us are unbelievable. But with each passing day, given strength, honesty and support, we grow less and less dependent upon the outside "substance." Too bad Dad, with his medical knowledge, does not seem able to apply it to his life.

In smoking cessation programs, you learn that the physical withdrawal - the physical dependence - upon nicotine and the other chemicals in cigaratte smoke - is gone from your body in 5 days or less. The rest is all mental. I imagine similar statistics are true of the dopamine issue with regard to the "high" that affairs provide. Once the chemicals are back to normal, what we need is a lot of TLC and hand-holding.

Well, seems I have rambled about addictions long enough. Know that I am thinking of you and praying for you in this time of pain.

Hugs.

I understand where you are coming from BIJ, and I agree with everything you said, EXCEPT, at the very end when you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But he IS being honest. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mom's gut is telling her the opposite. I know in the beginning it is very early to start to separate anxiety/suspicion/insecurity from actually KNOWING something is not quite right.

HOWEVER, we do know that Dad has physically been around OW (at NH, finding sex of OC). We also know that he pledged to do everything to reassure Mom, and many of those reassurances have stopped.

I don't think it is safe to say we KNOW Dad is being honest.

I DO agree with everything else BIJ said regarding the fact that you can only control YOU, Mom. To some extent, you do have to let that fear and anxiety go, and begin to focus on YOUR personal recovery. Because not only do you have a M to recover, you also have a lot of work to do on self recovery - as we all do.

The choices he makes are his alone. He has a host of consequences for his actions, and he is well aware of all of them - to include facing Dr. Phil in front of millions of people! YIKES!

Hang on to the rollercoaster, Mom!

{{{{{MOM}}}}}! I am so sorry for what you are going through. When my dad was dying in August/2003 my H was not there to support me. Maybe it's lucky for me that I didn't know he was having an A, but it is the aspect of Recovery and forgiveness that will be last to deal with for me. Looking back on that time is very painful. I truly hope that you find a way to just be there with your dad in his final days. That is a gift for both you and your father.

Mom, until the OW in our case was truly out of our lives my H couldn't really begin true withdrawal. Once that occurred he was kind to me, but recovery didn't even start happening until the withdrawal lessened. Over these months he slowly has returned to our M. I still get frustrated and want to quit because I need more. Then he will turn another corner. My therapist told me recently it will take time for him to be reintegrated back into the M. My H, like yours, had an intense EA/PA. Those As really F up a M. I was lucky in that my H did end it pretty much cold turkey. I was also lucky in that even though I believe are OW was a predator, she wasn't half as bad as your OW. She backed off. Who knows where we'd be of she had persisted?

Be there for you father, and just let D2 do whatever he's doing. Then figure out exactly what you need and want. I'm sure Dr. Phil will also call him on many things. If he can't work as a team to recover your M, then you absolutely know you hung in there through it all. We here on MB can vouche for that. Take care of yourself! CV

Mom:

Sorry for your pain, and I can't say that I am suprised. I guess you don't need to hear that....sorry. I will say a prayer for you so that you can get yourslef through this. PLease TRUST your GUT. History in these cases usually repeats itself. Sad but true. I am sure that you will find a way to forgive him yet again and try and recover your marriage. You have done it a hundred times over, why stop now in trying to recover your marriage? WHat would be different this time? Good luck. I have TIVO'd your Dr Phil show and look forward to watching it. Sorry again for your pain. It must be very very hard living this nightmare over and over again, yet hoping for a different result.

I am sorry you are in this place. Dad having seen OW is bound to set back his progress of withdrawal. Remember that this is a very, very long journey. Hang on! I know, b/c my real d-day was 11/01 and contact continued on and off with OW despite my Plan A and two Plan B's and counseling with Steve Harley. Things didn't really get better until after the final contact phone call in April of 2004!!! Yes, that long after! I threatened to expose everything to OW if she EVER called again.

Slow down your pace and expectations. I suspect that Dad is back in contact. That does not mean that all is lost. YOu are getting the help you need from Dr. Phil. Concentrate on yourself, what you need--from other family members, your children, friends, fellow MBers and from within. Dad MUST do this himself. Know that with your dad so ill everything is that much more potent.

Hugs.

Hi mom
I am going to be optimistic, like BIJ.

Firstly I remember early after my H and I reconciled it seemed like a second honeymoon. Lots of SF. He was basically treating me like a spoilt princess. Couldn't do enough. Taliking openly about everything. However, like any honeymoon period, that level of intensity couldn't last as reality of life re set in. And then of course we BOTH went through a reexamination of whether we really wanted in or out of the marriage. I know I certainly pulled back a bit as I stared to go really look at whether i wanted to be where I was. before that it was just survival and passion. Then it was hard yakka (work in OZ terms).

Hee too of course questioned his choices. He had been in shock and hold it together mode too. He pulled away too. Less SF. Then I began to panic, felt seriously rejected thought maybe he should leave and pusue a life with her if that would make him happier (look for some of my very early posts, it got to the stage that I basically LB him into leaving me.

However I see some positives in your conversation with Dad to 3 boys. He was honest about what he was feeling. He didn't discount what you had raised and try and deny. He admitted that what you described and perceived was in fact how he was feeling. I see this as a good thing. Hurts like hell I know, ( and I would have reacted just like you are) but unfortunately that is where he is. Withdrawal is hard. You are going through a rough time with your dad so ill (hugs. You have a lot of stress on top of that, plus dealing with "the crisis that you marriage is in". At times you must be very sad. It is probably hard for your H at times to know that he has added to all that. And I see how hard it would be for him going public literally to the world (we see Dr phil over here in Australia too). I know I couldn't.

Remember that in times of stress before she was an escape. He has lost that now. However just as we as betrayed spouses have triggers, I am sure that maybe when under stress that they have triggers too. I know how hard it would be to say this to him, but maybe in a converstion such as that, you could thank him for being honest and give him some sort of appreciation for choosing you. (yeah I know sucks doesn't it). I only wish my H had been able to share such feelings with me. He denied any feelings for OW after affair (a women he had had a very, very long relationship with).

Of course based on past behaviour you red flags are flying and maybe rightly so, after all he has a poor track record and you know him pretty well. But at the moment you have suspicion, not facts. Be observant and alert, but my advice is maybe give him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to the hellish, bumpy, up and down road of recovery.

I am so sorry about your father. Sometimes the ammount one person has to cope with just seems unfair.
Love
C&S

PS
Unfortunately wanting to trust again means him being honest with you. Unfortunately some of what they are then honest about with us is painful and hurtful to hear. But the honesty is the cornerstone of rebuilding that lost trust. And it is consistanly hearing the truth that allows it to rebuild. But it takes a long time.

If we act aggressively or defensivvely or even panickky, it only discourages them telling the truth next time.

C&S

Mom
Today I saw the Dr. Phil show and looked up to see a glimpse of a very gorgeous woman and realized it was you! Dad is crazy! You're absolutely beautiful! (it was a promo of your show this week)

I agree Dad is in his addiction. I remember those days. I think the subsequent d-days are much, much worse than the first. The first one you're thrown because your mind can't seem to get itself wrapped around the idea. The second and subsequent are torcherous because you know how horrible life is going to be...

I agree that you've got too much on your plate right now. If the man wants to embarass himself on national television then he deserves what's in his path. He'll have to move to China to avoid running into someone who saw him on the show and wants to give him a piece of their mind...

Tell him if he wants to call the woman in his life a poor excuse of a human being such as she and raise a "girl" that is more likely than not belongs to the boy friend then go with your blessings. You've got men lined up and after Dr. Phil, your fan base of men will grow mightily! There are men out there who would love to stand in as your boy's dad because their "real" dad is not much of a man...a terrible role model...lacking in character...

Mom, right now focus on your Dad. How horribly cruel is dad2threeboys! Just as FIM, you deserve so much better and it's out there in droves... Please know you're in my prayers.