ACTIONS speak louder than words!!! - Marriage Builders® Forums

It has been about 6 weeks...I cant even remember what day it is anymore! I only slept for 30 minutes last night. Got a call from mom about 5:30, "daddy may not make it thru the night" We were on our way to the Cher concert. We decided to go to the concert. I called after the concert to see how he was. He was "resting" peacefully. I spoke to my Uncle who said it was grim. I had decided to go ahead and go out this morning. I was up all night long, despite taking sleeping pills.

Well, being up all night long, I started to think. Think really hard. My H has been so withdrawn, so distant with me. I asked him about it a few days ago. He said he was thinking of how he was going to handle it when the baby comes. It is getting closer, he says...WHAT?? It is still 5 months away! Whatever. He hasn't approached me in weeks for SF, something we did everyday at the beginning of the R. He hasn't reassured me, told me he loves me, told me I am the one, told me anything...just keeps getting more and more distant.

Well, this mroning I called him on it. I flat out told him I thought he was seeing her again. Why else would he be so distant. AT first he said "I'm not saying a word". I told him his actions speak louder than words nowadays. I told him I cant go on this way, that as soon as we bury my dad, he is free to go. Roll of the eyes from him and "here we go again". He said he has a lot going thru his mind...I repeated out loud what I thought was going thru his mind

This marriage is never going to work

I shouldn't have given up OW

She is better in bed than you are

Maybe I should just go and be with her so I can raise this GIRL!

This is so boring, I dont want to live this way.

His response was "yea, I wont deny having thought about all those things"

Well, here is the problem...when he first came home and out of the fog, so to speak <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , he couldn't BELIEVE he EVER thought things like that. He couldn't believe that he couldn't see the future for what it could be and not for what it was! He KNEW that I was the one and he was sooooo happy that he married me and couldnt' believe he doubted it! Well, now he IS doubting it again. He is NOT seeing our future for what it could be.

I am so sick of this. I am NOT going to go on this way. I thought this was behind us, but you know what...I dont think it ever will be. I dont think I want him anymore. I deserve better than this and I wont let him betray me AGAIN! HE is the fool! HE will look like the idiot on national TV...GOOD! So be it!

Hi Mom, all those thoughts and insecurities will continue to pop up. A's are hard enough. Throw in a baby and, really, does life get much worse. Well, yes it does. Your poor dad is on his last legs and whether or not you feel it is the focus of your state of mind, it is bound to have a massive impact on your life at the moment.

I don't think you should make any major decisions at the moment. There's too much going on in your life. Your dad is heading back to his maker, and a baby (girl) will soon be here which will be a constant reminder of your husband's infidelity. I really don't think now is the time to do anything drastic. Your rollercoaster has some spins and turns that some of us have been spared. I would just TRY to focus on life one day at a time. In the big picture of things, a few more months won't hurt and then perhaps you can see if you can deal with the situation or not. Kind thoughts, TT

Incidentally, I can relate to the sentiments regarding the baby girl (if it is). I have 3 girls and I would hate the OW to give my husband something I didn't. Never wanted anything other than the beautiful children I got, but nobody else should have the right to change the dynamics of our family.

What happened to a commitment of NC? The recovery seemed to stop right when he saw her in what he described as a professional non-personal situation when he found out the sex of the OC.

Is he unwilling to give up that NH?

Just a month ago he was willing to do anything to keep his family together, including move...or am I not remembering his resolve correctly.

You need to insist that he give up that NH. He will not be able to fully withdraw from OW without NC.

Then the paternity test. Then depending on the results a plan for continued NC with OW and possibly also NC with OC as well.

I believe your gut is right about the reasons for his being distant...well, he basically confirmed that everything you were thinking was correct.

I am so sorry he is making your recovery so much more difficult than it needs to be.

Have you delved into the MB materials together? Maybe you should start with the Love Busters program. You can't just be complacent in your recovery.

But, maybe you need to have everything on hold while dealing with your father.
Well, I know just about everything else is on hold in your life because of your father being so close to dying. That is making this already tenuous recovery even more stressful and difficult..

Dad is still seemingly being very self centered.

I'm sorry Mt3B..

I can't offer you any unbiased advice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I went back and read your Hs posts..compared them to his present ones..and see no difference.

I hope that Dr phil can help you.
I wish you the best.

Noodle

I forgot to mention the quarters I found in his car. about $2.00/$3.00 worth. The ONLY time he has ever carried that many quarters is when he ws stopping at pay phones to call his OW...He denied it. Said they were for coffee or something like that...yea, whatever...It is just all coming back in a big way. The distance, the withdrawn demeanor, the actions or lack thereof of making me feel secure. My gosh, that is all he did the first 3 weeks.

I wont make any major decisions right now, but I am not going to go on this way. What happend to...I wont EVER doubt our marriage again???

Oh and remember that last thread I had going about a week ago. I know he read it...did he respond to it? To reassure me? NOOOOO! Remember when he stopped posting before...he was IN CONTACT!!! although he denies it...I can tell...I KNOW in my heart he is in contact with her. Tough life Dad!

Dr Phil Thursday show!

Yea, and it still goes on!!!!

wow mom, this is tough. I have to agree with others however and say not to make any decisions while you are going throught the pain of losing your dad. Your emotions are running high.

I just read Dr. Phill's discription of the show. He certainly puts a spin on things.

Hang in there MT3B's. THis is a long road and only you know what is right for you. Just please do not make any rash decisions during this painful time.

Mom, I am sorry you are going through this. I agree with Trix, as all my red warning flags came out as I read that Dad talked to OW regarding OC at that NH. To me, the NH is a deal-breaker.

I know how hard addiction is. When I gave up smoking, I was very sick. Smoking hurt me, and I had HAD ENOUGH! I QUIT! Well, a couple weeks later, my lungs healed, and the "relaxing" thought of coffee and a smoke in the morning really appealed to me. My original reason for quitting was gone, and I had to find other reasons to keep me from picking up another pack.

Honestly, if I had gone to someone's house that smoked, regularly, I probably would not have quit back then. My resolve was very low. Sometimes very high, but sometimes very low.

I believe it is the same philosophy with seeing the OP, especially while still at such a vulnerable stage. Your H is very intelligent, but he is only human. Even though he is a doctor, and this is his job, he cannot see the OW. IMO.

Dr. Harley made that point, to even move to another STATE, for very good reasons - regarding contact with OP. This was a deal-breaker for me.

Also, why don't you go to the nursing home with him when you know OW will be there? I have asked you this before. The OW in my case, her DS was in H's Scout patrol. Since H and I reconciled, I have been to EVERY SINGLE Scout function - and the OW doesn't come anymore. If he shows his face there, yours needs to be right there with him. A united front needs to be presented to OW.

Right now, your H probably needs a LOT of help with that. You must work recovery as a team. I know it sucks facing the OW, but sometimes it has to be done. Especially in circumstances like ours. NO WAY would I have trusted my H to "do the right thing" in the beginning of our Recovery. NO WAY. That had to be earned.

Hang in there, Mom. I'm hoping and praying Dr. Phil can get through to him.

Spidey

[ November 08, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]

Hang in there as best as you can.

You are doing very good considering the circumstances (him running into OW and the show coming out)

Ride that bucking bronco of a situation through the coming rough moments if you can squeeze out the emotional energy.

Things will either get much better very VERY soon or you will truly have reached the point of having given it YOUR all and then you could walk away from it with no regrets.

The calvary (Dr. Phil) is on the way and if he can't help you fix it......well it is just not fixable.

It would seem that you are right about the change in his car. Why do you need change for coffee...he buys it from machines? Most beverage machines take dollars.

Hasn't he learned howo stupid it is to continue to tell you lies? For being so smart he sure can be dumb.

I am so sorry that he has broken his commitment to you to do everything to reassure you that he wasn't wavering in his commitment.

Reassurance, radical honesty, open book behavior is what we all require early in recovery. I had great hopes for you both but there had to be NC!
Darn it! Why can' he see that?...It is so obvious.

[ November 08, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Trix ]

Hey M23B, Saw your post over here...so I moved mine from the P/C board. Anything to make it easier on you.

I'm probably going to get smacked for being optimistic....BUT here goes.....

Gosh your mind is working overtime ! You need SLEEP in the very worst of ways.

One day...you're going to come back here and remember getting suspicious and anxious over quarters and gum.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He hasn't hugged me or reassured me in weeks. <hr /></blockquote>Think about this for a minute...remove DAD from the picture..and think about reading about the actions..the distance...the overall...cruminess seething out of the FWS during withdrawal.

I mentioned to you in another post...NOW..he IS showing classic ..classic symptoms...he's just overall self absorbed. But that's okay for now. It just happens to additionally SUCK...during a time that you need physical comfort..more than ever.

Dad is being scrutinized on national TV...he has NO closure for all this...only time will do that. I'm sure a BIG part of him is embarrassed, and humiliated on a dozen different levels...throw in an anxious stressed out wife, who's father is passing.... WOW.

Do you think you guys MAYBE...JUST MAYBE...have a whole HELL of a lot going on right now ?

You know what Mom...sometimes..you have to just throw your hands in there air and surrender. That's what helped me with the anxiety. We can only control ourselves...think about all the time and effort..EMOTIONS...you're putting into worrying about this.

DO YOUR PART...let HIM worry about doing his. We both know if he wants to see her...and continue down that path of destruction...there isn't a enough worry to prevent it..so STOP.

You know who you are...you know what you want...you know you can make it either way. Let HIM do HIS part. If he falters... and this is the MOST IMPORTANT THING SO READ CAREFULLY...IF...he faulters....it will be of NO reflection of what you did or didn't do...couldn't or couldn't do...because you're doing your best.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I just dont trust the man. Will I ever trust him? dont know, doubt it. not with him acting this way and not without any reassurance. <hr /></blockquote>Well if we all had a dollar for every time we thought THAT. Trust...a long way out. Isn't given away freely anymore...a long road to earning it.
This is early recovery. This is where you have to drag out all your resources to deal with your emotions.

Maybe Dad just feels like a big failure right now. In the midst of you going through this very difficult time...he has to live with the idea he's put so much more on your plate.

Just a thought...he did say he had a lot going on his mind.

But he IS being honest.

He's been your H for 12 years... you have 3 children together...you CAN hug him..and you NEED a hug...so get one.

Mom,

I just wanted to pop in and say <sigh> I'm so very sorry for everything that is happening in your life right now. It is more than enough to be dealing with your father's illness, but to add the problems in your marriage - TOO much.

As you know, I've been through this too many times to count. And yes, unfortunately, what we "feel" in terms of the distance that our spouses create, the withdrawal, yes, it usually means resumed contact.

In the early days, during the first one or two false recoveries, I thought that the words coming out of his mouth were true - that he really wasn't happy, that he really hadn't talked to OW, but needed to figure out some things. Proof later showed up that all those words were lies.

I see red flags also, I'm sorry to say. I think Dad - for all his intelligence in the medical field - seems unaware of the effects of withdrawal and isn't doing what he needs to get himself through it.

Spidey and I have smoking cessation in common. Oh yes, she is 100% right. Without a strong support network, I would never have successfully quit either. Some days you wake up and you mentally rationalize a return to the addiction - at least early in the process.

You go through the "one little drag won't hurt" (one little phone call won't hurt);

"I know that if I try it again, I'll realize how awful it is." (I know if I see her again, I'll realize I don't want her);

"Gee, So-and-So has been smoking for years and it never seemed to hurt him." (Gee, Tom and Jane married after their affair, and they seem happy).

All these thoughts are those of the addict in the early stages of withdrawal. The tricks the mind plays on us are unbelievable. But with each passing day, given strength, honesty and support, we grow less and less dependent upon the outside "substance." Too bad Dad, with his medical knowledge, does not seem able to apply it to his life.

In smoking cessation programs, you learn that the physical withdrawal - the physical dependence - upon nicotine and the other chemicals in cigaratte smoke - is gone from your body in 5 days or less. The rest is all mental. I imagine similar statistics are true of the dopamine issue with regard to the "high" that affairs provide. Once the chemicals are back to normal, what we need is a lot of TLC and hand-holding.

Well, seems I have rambled about addictions long enough. Know that I am thinking of you and praying for you in this time of pain.

Hugs.

I understand where you are coming from BIJ, and I agree with everything you said, EXCEPT, at the very end when you said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But he IS being honest. <hr /></blockquote>Mom's gut is telling her the opposite. I know in the beginning it is very early to start to separate anxiety/suspicion/insecurity from actually KNOWING something is not quite right.

HOWEVER, we do know that Dad has physically been around OW (at NH, finding sex of OC). We also know that he pledged to do everything to reassure Mom, and many of those reassurances have stopped.

I don't think it is safe to say we KNOW Dad is being honest.

I DO agree with everything else BIJ said regarding the fact that you can only control YOU, Mom. To some extent, you do have to let that fear and anxiety go, and begin to focus on YOUR personal recovery. Because not only do you have a M to recover, you also have a lot of work to do on self recovery - as we all do.

The choices he makes are his alone. He has a host of consequences for his actions, and he is well aware of all of them - to include facing Dr. Phil in front of millions of people! YIKES!

Hang on to the rollercoaster, Mom!

{{{{{MOM}}}}}! I am so sorry for what you are going through. When my dad was dying in August/2003 my H was not there to support me. Maybe it's lucky for me that I didn't know he was having an A, but it is the aspect of Recovery and forgiveness that will be last to deal with for me. Looking back on that time is very painful. I truly hope that you find a way to just be there with your dad in his final days. That is a gift for both you and your father.

Mom, until the OW in our case was truly out of our lives my H couldn't really begin true withdrawal. Once that occurred he was kind to me, but recovery didn't even start happening until the withdrawal lessened. Over these months he slowly has returned to our M. I still get frustrated and want to quit because I need more. Then he will turn another corner. My therapist told me recently it will take time for him to be reintegrated back into the M. My H, like yours, had an intense EA/PA. Those As really F up a M. I was lucky in that my H did end it pretty much cold turkey. I was also lucky in that even though I believe are OW was a predator, she wasn't half as bad as your OW. She backed off. Who knows where we'd be of she had persisted?

Be there for you father, and just let D2 do whatever he's doing. Then figure out exactly what you need and want. I'm sure Dr. Phil will also call him on many things. If he can't work as a team to recover your M, then you absolutely know you hung in there through it all. We here on MB can vouche for that. Take care of yourself! CV

Mom:

Sorry for your pain, and I can't say that I am suprised. I guess you don't need to hear that....sorry. I will say a prayer for you so that you can get yourslef through this. PLease TRUST your GUT. History in these cases usually repeats itself. Sad but true. I am sure that you will find a way to forgive him yet again and try and recover your marriage. You have done it a hundred times over, why stop now in trying to recover your marriage? WHat would be different this time? Good luck. I have TIVO'd your Dr Phil show and look forward to watching it. Sorry again for your pain. It must be very very hard living this nightmare over and over again, yet hoping for a different result.

I am sorry you are in this place. Dad having seen OW is bound to set back his progress of withdrawal. Remember that this is a very, very long journey. Hang on! I know, b/c my real d-day was 11/01 and contact continued on and off with OW despite my Plan A and two Plan B's and counseling with Steve Harley. Things didn't really get better until after the final contact phone call in April of 2004!!! Yes, that long after! I threatened to expose everything to OW if she EVER called again.

Slow down your pace and expectations. I suspect that Dad is back in contact. That does not mean that all is lost. YOu are getting the help you need from Dr. Phil. Concentrate on yourself, what you need--from other family members, your children, friends, fellow MBers and from within. Dad MUST do this himself. Know that with your dad so ill everything is that much more potent.

Hugs.

Hi mom
I am going to be optimistic, like BIJ.

Firstly I remember early after my H and I reconciled it seemed like a second honeymoon. Lots of SF. He was basically treating me like a spoilt princess. Couldn't do enough. Taliking openly about everything. However, like any honeymoon period, that level of intensity couldn't last as reality of life re set in. And then of course we BOTH went through a reexamination of whether we really wanted in or out of the marriage. I know I certainly pulled back a bit as I stared to go really look at whether i wanted to be where I was. before that it was just survival and passion. Then it was hard yakka (work in OZ terms).

Hee too of course questioned his choices. He had been in shock and hold it together mode too. He pulled away too. Less SF. Then I began to panic, felt seriously rejected thought maybe he should leave and pusue a life with her if that would make him happier (look for some of my very early posts, it got to the stage that I basically LB him into leaving me.

However I see some positives in your conversation with Dad to 3 boys. He was honest about what he was feeling. He didn't discount what you had raised and try and deny. He admitted that what you described and perceived was in fact how he was feeling. I see this as a good thing. Hurts like hell I know, ( and I would have reacted just like you are) but unfortunately that is where he is. Withdrawal is hard. You are going through a rough time with your dad so ill (hugs. You have a lot of stress on top of that, plus dealing with "the crisis that you marriage is in". At times you must be very sad. It is probably hard for your H at times to know that he has added to all that. And I see how hard it would be for him going public literally to the world (we see Dr phil over here in Australia too). I know I couldn't.

Remember that in times of stress before she was an escape. He has lost that now. However just as we as betrayed spouses have triggers, I am sure that maybe when under stress that they have triggers too. I know how hard it would be to say this to him, but maybe in a converstion such as that, you could thank him for being honest and give him some sort of appreciation for choosing you. (yeah I know sucks doesn't it). I only wish my H had been able to share such feelings with me. He denied any feelings for OW after affair (a women he had had a very, very long relationship with).

Of course based on past behaviour you red flags are flying and maybe rightly so, after all he has a poor track record and you know him pretty well. But at the moment you have suspicion, not facts. Be observant and alert, but my advice is maybe give him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to the hellish, bumpy, up and down road of recovery.

I am so sorry about your father. Sometimes the ammount one person has to cope with just seems unfair.
Love
C&S

PS
Unfortunately wanting to trust again means him being honest with you. Unfortunately some of what they are then honest about with us is painful and hurtful to hear. But the honesty is the cornerstone of rebuilding that lost trust. And it is consistanly hearing the truth that allows it to rebuild. But it takes a long time.

If we act aggressively or defensivvely or even panickky, it only discourages them telling the truth next time.

C&S

Mom
Today I saw the Dr. Phil show and looked up to see a glimpse of a very gorgeous woman and realized it was you! Dad is crazy! You're absolutely beautiful! (it was a promo of your show this week)

I agree Dad is in his addiction. I remember those days. I think the subsequent d-days are much, much worse than the first. The first one you're thrown because your mind can't seem to get itself wrapped around the idea. The second and subsequent are torcherous because you know how horrible life is going to be...

I agree that you've got too much on your plate right now. If the man wants to embarass himself on national television then he deserves what's in his path. He'll have to move to China to avoid running into someone who saw him on the show and wants to give him a piece of their mind...

Tell him if he wants to call the woman in his life a poor excuse of a human being such as she and raise a "girl" that is more likely than not belongs to the boy friend then go with your blessings. You've got men lined up and after Dr. Phil, your fan base of men will grow mightily! There are men out there who would love to stand in as your boy's dad because their "real" dad is not much of a man...a terrible role model...lacking in character...

Mom, right now focus on your Dad. How horribly cruel is dad2threeboys! Just as FIM, you deserve so much better and it's out there in droves... Please know you're in my prayers.

Hey JPH, dad won't be safe anywhere. I live in China and we've got cable. I bet that Dr Phil program is on there somewhere <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> TT.

Horray for China! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mom,

Just praying for you and dad.

~ Snow

mom,

Having gone thru my own father's death, and taking care of him the last 3 months of his life, all I can say is that this is your dad's time. You don't have much time left with him, so you need to focus on that right now.

Your H will have his attitude, Dr. Phil will happen, but right now just try to focus on your father, it is HIS time, just be there for him. You won't be sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Try to step back and be there for your dad right now, this needs to be your priority.

And try to get some rest, even if it is in the hospital room sitting with your dad.

Praying for the best for you and family, etc.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Miss M:
 mom,

Having gone thru my own father's death, and taking care of him the last 3 months of his life, all I can say is that this is your dad's time. You don't have much time left with him, so you need to focus on that right now.

Your H will have his attitude, Dr. Phil will happen, but right now just try to focus on your father, it is HIS time, just be there for him. You won't be sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Try to step back and be there for your dad right now, this needs to be your priority.

And try to get some rest, even if it is in the hospital room sitting with your dad.

Praying for the best for you and family, etc.

Love in Christ,
Miss M <hr /></blockquote>This needs to be posted twice, as it's the best advice you are going to get on the subject.

I just wanted to let everyone know that we did the second show yesterday. The only way I would go out there was if they got me on a direct flight back to SAT. They did. I am here with my dad right now and he is resting comfortably. His final days are quickly approaching. I feel much better now being with my dad and I know now I will be here with him when he dies. I am not going anywhere. I have to tell him today that it is OK for him to go! I will take care of my mom.

As for D23B, we talked...he said he doesn't feel that once the baby is born the marriage will survive. Right now, I honestly cant worry about that. I think once my dad is gone, I will be able to think clearly and if need be move forward without D23B. If he doens't think the marriage wil survive, then I see no point in going forward any longer. But, hey that is my opinion. DR. Phil does think the marriage can be saved, but I may not want that anymore. I cant go on with him constantly "wondering" if he did the right thing. I right now, my focus in on MY dad.

I am going to print off all these replies and go sit with him and read them and re-read them again.

I just want ya'll to know that I feel much better now that I am with my father. And I know my mom is better now too. Thank you!

My prayers are with you M23B ... prayers for your strength.

As you know, I lost my Mom this year... please take excellent care of yourself.

Pep

M23B,
I'm with you in spirit...in your moments to reflect...remember we're all here, thinking of you and praying for you.

As the person who kept bedside vigil for a dying parent...PLEASE PLEASE be gentle with yourself.

Take breaks. I know how hard you work on keeping things together right now for your mom and dad.

When your time comes...to fall apart...we're here for you..and we'll pick you up...give you lots of love and support.

Take Care Mom

M23B

I know you are going through such a hard time. Just let the M stuff sit in limbo right now as much as you can as many advised here.
YOu have enough to cope with right now.

On you song request I did find my link to the music my H mess uses and they play when they ever get deployed. I'm afraid it just makes me & the other wives cry.

But could not find Liberace for you I'm sorry.

But here is the original which I think I can faintly remember hearing Liberace sing in a repeat of his show many years ago...hope its the one for you...

I've got the original but not sure if it's what you were after

We'll Meet Again - sung by Vera Lynn
words & music Ross Parker & Hughie Charles

We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when
But I know we'll meet again some sunny day
Keep smiling through, just the way you used to do
Till the blue skies chase the dark clouds far away
Now, won't you please say "Hello" to the folks that I know
Tell 'em it won't be long
'cause they'd be happy to know that when you saw me go
I was singing this song
We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when
But I know we'll meet again some sunny day

You can download a free version by Vera Lynn at

http://l.swazzo.tripod.com/veralynn.html

Will say lots of prayers for you M23b's to get through this hard time.

Thank you very much!

Show

Mom, I'm sending love, prayers, and hugs to you and your family. I was at a friends funeral mass this morning. The priest said something in the sermon that I really liked. It was something like the spirit or soul leaves a person's body when the body can't hold it anymore. As hard as it is to say goodbye, I know your dad will always be with you, and support you during this difficult time. I feel that way about my dad. Know we all are supporting you. CV

I have not been in contact with OW as my wife suspects. I have been tempted yes. I have been withdrawn because I can't stop thinking about this mess and I am in withdrawal. In the past I would have left physically right now it is mental. I am being brutally honest as I was dishonest. The quarters never got used. I will get blasted on TV and it will be worse next week when we really get into it. I suspect most if not all will be shocked and appauled at my behaviour. The hords will want my head. It was Ugly I have no excuse. I am at home taking care of the kids and I am trying to be supportive. I am way ahead of my past attempts to recover. My wife sounds like she is meaking up her mind to leave. We will see, she will get some persuasive arguments to do just that. So be it.

Thank you Dad for posting on here, and for going on the show. It takes a lot of guts to get life back on track.

Thank you for not coming on here with excuses or justifications.

Is there anything we can do to support you during this VERY tough time?

(P.S. Time to take the quarters and let the kids go wild at the Big Happy Rat (as my H calls Chuck E. Cheese))

Mom
I am so sorry about your dad. Concentrate on that. Have your last days with him and put everything else on the backburner. I will be praying for you.

Dad, all you can do is try and support mom through this sad time. And keep being honest and resisting temptation. If you can't. Be honest about it and let mom get on with her life. If you want your marriage then keep walking the walk and talking the talk and show by your actions that you want her. Seeing your OW at the NH seems to really set you back. Is there any way you could give up that position?

I am pr4aying for both of you
C&S

Dad2
You know that "where your mind is" is not in reality. It's an allusion. An addiction. I know in your practice or training experienced how addicts are almost impossible to communicate with (sorry for the bad grammar but you know.) The addiction rules and ruins their lives unless by the grace of God they can see their way out. You're in that same situation. Everyone around you is screaming to break free yet you go back again and again...whether it's physical or not makes no difference. Saying you want one more "fix," thinking that this baby is yours and will need you, or rationalizing that not being physically there is somehow better is just prolonging the misery-for you, for your wife and for your children.

Now is the time where the rubber meets the road and you need to stand up and be a man...not a wimpering addict which is exactly how you're acting. I'm screaming now...MOM'S DAD IS DYING. This is possibly the worst time of her life and you're making it worse! STOP! Grow up and get over yourself! You have responsibilities. You have a family. You eating out of the trash can when you have a gourmet meal at home! You're bathing in the sewer instead of the tub at home! You're making a fool of yourself and the whole nation is watching!

I would not blame Mom one bit if after she deals with the death of her father that she kicks you out! There are way too many men out there who would love to have a gorgeous woman such as your wife on their arm. They would love to be a step father to your boys. A man who would be there for them. Go to their games, teach them to drive, take their picture dressed ready for the prom, send them off to college... You think you've seen anger before, wait until those boys get big enough to understand what YOU'VE done to THEIR mom. You'll see anger then..righteous anger!

Now is the time Dad..now. You've made too many promises and gone back on your word too many times for Mom2 go through this again. It's cruel. The decision you make to day will affect generations to come. Just as one throws a rock in a pond, the affect goes throughout the whole pond. If you infect your family with any more of this cr*p, then God help you...for only He has the power...

[ November 10, 2004, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: jph ]

DT3B,

Glad to hear that you are trying your best to work through the withdrawal. It takes time. And it hurts. Please just accept that and don't let yourself get derailed.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dadto3boys:
I am at home taking care of the kids and I am trying to be supportive.<hr /></blockquote>Good, dad. Mom needs that support right now. As one who has buried both my mother and a sister, I can tell you that MT3B's mind is not in one piece right now. It is trapped somewhere between heaven and earth, lingering, waiting for the inevitable.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My wife sounds like she is meaking up her mind to leave. We will see, she will get some persuasive arguments to do just that. So be it. [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>MT3B does not want to leave. She is reacting to your withdrawal and that is very typical. It is no fun for her to see you fighting through withdrawal and when she talks about leaving, she is really talking about protecting herself from further harm. That doesn't mean she looking for the door. Far from it.

Stay the course, DT3B. Stay away from OW and that darn NH. Be supportive of MT3B right now. Call her, keep in touch, let her grieve. When she is able, let her begin to meet your needs as you meet hers.

You already know OW is not "all that." Or do we need to remind you of her duplicity to bring you back to earth?

Don't give her another thought. Think only of MT3B, your FIL and MIL and your boys right now. Be strong during this time.

~ Snow

mom and dad,

A lot of people are pulling for you both. Don't let the negative people who are indignant at your lives and self-righteous affect you and your marriage. Look for those of us in the world who are looking at the positive of the great relationship you can have once you get to the other side of this marital crisis!

You two can do this. You can come out the other side still married and more in love than ever!

WHEW...D23.... you had me a bit worried...because I remained positive..and thought it was all withdrawal..and just some stuff going on in your own head.

You have NO idea how relieved I am ! I didn't want to lead M23 down the wrong road.

Thanks for dropping in and giving us an update.

Withdrawal really sucks...but at least we know for a fact..that you WILL move past it..you WILL get better.

Powerful stuff JPH. Wish you were speaking to my WH.

Mom, try and find a little bit of time for yourself. Even if it's just a long soak in the tub. Take care. Seems like your dad is a fighter - finding it hard to let go of you all. I'm so sad for you. TT

OK, I haven't posted much lately, but I would really like to add here!

FIrst of all, Mom to 3, you are a beautiful woman!!! You hold your head up high!!! In all sincerity, I mean that. I too am a BW so I do know your pain. I give you (and you too Dad) a lot of credit for getting up there on Dr. Phil's show. WOW. I don't think I could do it, as much as I desperately need his (Dr. Phils) help. I hope this leads you down a path toward healing and peace. Just think of the people your story can reach out to and help!!

JPH - as a BW who's H has put me through absolute hell, with numerous ddays,and betrayals and deceit, and humiliation, ET AL, you were right on the money. Just my 02.

Anyway, God Bless you both and give you strength through all the trauma you are going through (especially with your Dad, Mom).

Dad to 3, as a woman who's been hurt by my WH, STOP. THINK. My h said once, he'd have left if I had cheated on him. Well, I said, so it's not OK for me to cheat, but your ow can cheat on her h and that is OK . DOES ANY OF THIS MAKE SENSE? Of course it doesn't. I'm judged by his "reality" and she was judged on complete delusion. THE A IS MADE OF LIES AND DECEIT, NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT.

I hope I don't sound too harsh here./ Dad, I think it takes guts to go on TV and admit what you did./ Big time guts.

I really wish you both the best./ Good luck./

Pickles are sour:
(First, I realize that you only mean well and want to bring something positive to this discussion).
If ONLY Dad to 3 felt as you do. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
***********************

I don't think anyone has come on to JUST beat up on Dad23.

As I recall, MANY (most) were VERY supportive and encouraging when they "thought" Dad was actually committed and striving FOR recovery.

It's only been since his ACTIONS (or inaction's) have been brought to light by Mom23, that the support for HIM has stopped. (it never has for mom).

These actions have been during her fathers terminal illness and even in the face of Dr. Phil.
If he doesn't "get it" .....don't blame those who simply Point that fact out.

If there ever was a candidate for a forest of 2 x 4's....its Him! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

We can get behind MBing......but will react in the opposite manner to this guy's current behavior. I haven't jump in.....but support those that are radically honest.
Especially with Dad's track record...(many "false" recoveries).

Face it, he's an expert at "saying" whatever he thinks will benifiet him most...at the moment.

I care WAAAAY more about what MOM is reveling he is DOING.....then I ever will by what this guy "Says" (on TV) or writes here.
His own behavior speaks for itself.

Also remember, However Dad comes across tomorrow....its due to his own words and behavior.
NO ONE put him in this Situation.

(Heck, he apparently Wants to continue in it (or is at the very least wavering) ......sad, Sad, SAD).

(((((((((({{{{{Mom to 3 boys}}}}})))))))))) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dad,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am at home taking care of the kids and I am trying to be supportive. I am way ahead of my past attempts to recover. My wife sounds like she is meaking up her mind to leave.
<hr /></blockquote>Mom just needs to feel wanted and loved. She is a beautiful girl and you are lucky to have her but if you can't understand that then you are going to lose her. It is up to you. Can you honestly say that OW would care about you as much if you didn't have the money, prestige and the title of MD? Many woman would love to "catch" a physician and would do whatever it takes to make that happen. I am not saying that she didn't find you attractive or nice but...Mom loves you for you, can you honestly say that about OW? By having your baby, she is financially enhanced for the next 18 years. I don't think that is what you mean to Mom, do you?

Mom said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He said he has a lot going thru his mind...I repeated out loud what I thought was going thru his mind

This marriage is never going to work

I shouldn't have given up OW

She is better in bed than you are

Maybe I should just go and be with her so I can raise this GIRL!

This is so boring, I dont want to live this way.

His response was "yea, I wont deny having thought about all those things"
<hr /></blockquote>1. Yes, it can but you have to put 100% of yourself into this relationship. You can't fake it!
2. Yes, you should give up OW. You have no right to love or honor someone else while you are still committed to someone else. If your marriage was over you should have ended it first. You needed to be strong, not a coward.
3. It is easy to learn how to be great in bed, it just takes love, patience and communication. Tell her what you like. Sometimes being great in bed comes with experience, is that what you want?
4. You also have three wonderful boys with a woman you committed to. Your daughter will be loved regardless. Do you really think OW will love your boys, in her heart?
5. Your life with OW would be boring too when she settled in as MDs wife and mother of his child(ren). Same life, different wife! Most MD's wives quit nursing in pursuit of the social prestige of MD wife. You know that, look around you.

Really, I am not trying to be hard on you. I just want you to think of how lucky you are and happiness with Mom is in your grasp, if you want it. It is so, so hard for a woman to get past the feeling of inadequacy and hoplessness when your husband chooses OW, even temporarily, over you. To some it is a blow never to be recovered from. Look in your heart, Can you imagine your life without Mom? Can you imagine her married to someone else? Your boys cuddled up on some other man's lap? The looks of love she give to given to someone else? The touch she gives to you given to someone else? Is this what you want? If not, stand up and fight for Mom.

Peace to you and Mom.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Cathy

Top ten reasons to go on Dr Phil:
10. you hate those bland impersonal family update form letters and want folks to see for themselves.

9. Maury would not pay for your paternity test

8. you can't wait to go home and talk southern to your friends.

7. Finding out that they eat real food when flying first class.

6. Those awesome Dr Phil coffee mugs

5. Finding out middle aged balding men can still have groupies

4. The rush of public humiliation

3. Knowing your problems will be solved after the commercial break.

2. Soundbite therapy

and number one..... you got turned down for Oprah.

Ridiculous...

Too funny Dad2! I'm glad to see you've got your sense of humor--it will help <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dad2, you have a golden opportunity now to be Mom2's rock in recovery when she really needs it while she's focused on her dad. You know that you can be the rock. I think you want to be the rock. Be the rock Dad2, don't waste this window of golden opportunity ok?

Um, about the "hot topic"------

Please be careful not to set yourself up for major disappointment ok? OWs say and do a lot of things to keep ties with a MM who wants to reconcile with his wife. If you've read any OW board, you would know that intentionally getting pregnant is not uncommon at all. It is also not uncommon for an OW to claim that the baby is the MM's "preferred" sex for a child. Unfortunately, I also know this from personal experience--and the baby wasn't even FWH's.

Also, please be careful not to let OW prevent you from achieving what you want with Mom2, ok? Don't you think that OW knew that finding out her baby's sex would get you to break the NC agreement with Mom2? Don't you think that OW knew what fallout there would be for Mom2 and for YOU? What happens when she claims she has cramps? What happens when she claims she's spotting? What happens when she uses every pregnancy ploy there is to use? What happens if you fall for it again?

You won't fall for it again Dad2, because now you know about using pregnancy ploys to get you to break NC. Be the rock Dad2, you know you can <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dadto3boys:
 Top ten reasons to go on Dr Phil:
10. you hate those bland impersonal family update form letters and want folks to see for themselves.

9. Maury would not pay for your paternity test

8. you can't wait to go home and talk southern to your friends.

7. Finding out that they eat real food when flying first class.

6. Those awesome Dr Phil coffee mugs

5. Finding out middle aged balding men can still have groupies

4. The rush of public humiliation

3. Knowing your problems will be solved after the commercial break.

2. Soundbite therapy

and number one..... you got turned down for Oprah. <hr /></blockquote>This is kind of funny in a morbid kind of way. Dad, you have to "sack up" here and get over your $hit here to help mom. These are the times that make real men, are you gonna be one?

I have been curious about something, D23B.
When you told M23B that OW couldn't get pregnant was that what you truly believed or was it just another of your lies and not OW's lie?

If OW had you believing she couldn't get pregnant..that she was using birth control or whatever...isn't it highly likely that she did this on purpose...you must question her character if she's done such a manipulative thing.

NC is imperitive for recovery. You must find a replacement at that NH and stop going there all together. Your withdrawal will not really begin until there is NC. JMHO

You can have a wonderful marriage in spite of all this...you need to build toward that before the OC is born and assume OC is not yours until it is proven otherwise. Isn't there some sort of paternity test that can be done pre-birth?

DT3B-
that was done in poor taste. Have some respect for your wife. Have some respect for the situation, have some respect for yourself.
Sorry if this is harsh but is seems you are getting a big kick out of the attention that the OW and Dr. Phill are giving you. You are making sure this drama continues. THat is just my opinion however, take it or leave.

DO me one favor though please. THink of those three boys and what you are putting them through. You can stop this if you chose too.

Before we start beating up on D23B...I think we need to realize there is a message between his lines.

D23....you're upset about this Dr. Phil thing. I know you did it to help your W, help your M, but it's really got consequences you didn't realize until now right ?

National Televised Exposure of your situation. Up close and personal to the pain that this causes all around.

I think this bothers you more than the withdrawal.

You feel like public enemy #1 right now I bet.

Get some of this stuff off your chest.... if you hold it in...it could have terrible consequences.

People that work in high stressed jobs that deal with life and death have funny type of sense of humors. I am very guilty of this myself.
I thought your list was very funny Dad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dad...Mom does not want her marriage to fail. She does love you I have no doubt. As far as her leaving you, She wont go anywhere as long as YOU are committed to your marriage and your family. That choice is yours.

I have my own take on Dads distance. Throughout the past few Months, mom and I have compared our Husbands personalities. Based on how simular the two men are I suspected that Dad's withdrawl has ALOT to do with Mom's fathers impending death.

First alot of Doctors do NOT deal with death well. They do a great job of sticking death in a special compartment and leaving it there. They are trained to be distant and professional.
Second Dad is not close with his own father, and had been close with Mom's Dad in the past (before A). I dont think DAD is handling Mom's Fathers illness and impending death very well. Doctors want to heal and fix ilness. It is very tough when they cant and horrible when it is someone in there own family. My own husband still has not recovered from his fathers disease and death, and it's been years.
I feel dads response is to Mom's fathers illness is to alienate Mom and her family so he does not have to deal with it.
OK Dr Phil I am not, It's just my opinion. Dad gets very distant when Mom goes to See her Dad and while she is there. He tends to "start things up" and is at his finest in the nasty dept. I truly do not think Dad is such a bad guy
CONFUSED ? Yes But NOT about being with the OW and the baby. Dad KNOWS that would never work out. He is very critical of the OW and it has only been a few months an I dont mean just her lying personality about everything.

I know Dad Loves Mom. My Husband would never go on national TV where his family, friends, professional colleages, patients and the whole blasted world can see him admit making a HUGE mistake and wanting to make a mends with his wife. I have told Mom that this speaks volumes.
This is absoulty HUGE I am very proud of Dad I do think he needs to let his emotional guard down and grieve with his wife right now. They need to hold one another and get through this horrible time in their lives. As far as the OW and the ? child. deal with that after the baby is born. That woman is a NONISSUE she always will be. If the baby is Dad's (I still doubt that) then deal with the baby PERIOD!

Now call your wife Dad and tell her you love her
You know you do!! Have you seen her picture ??
She's gorgeous!!!

I believe you Dad. I just do. You have no reason to lie to us here. Plus if you have been in contact that scum of an OW would have called the Dr Phil show to tattle. I told Mom based on OW past performances she would have called, no doubt. Too bad OW did not go on the show she could have won an emmy for her acting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Goodnight
SOM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
 Before we start beating up on D23B...I think we need to realize there is a message between his lines.

D23....you're upset about this Dr. Phil thing. I know you did it to help your W, help your M, but it's really got consequences you didn't realize until now right ?

National Televised Exposure of your situation. Up close and personal to the pain that this causes all around.

<hr /></blockquote>I think this is probably the crux of the issue. I guess I can't blame him, it is going to be a pressure cooker for him after this show airs tomorrow. This must be a very rough time in the household. SIGH........I hope that the children are ok. Not much else to say but offer prayers. If you believe in a higher power then you have to belive that he/she wouldn't give you anything that you couldn't handle. You couldn't even make this stuff up if your tried. Hopefully some good can come of all of this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StressedOutMom:
 People that work in high stressed jobs that deal with life and death have funny type of sense of humors. I am very guilty of this myself.
I thought your list was very funny Dad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

First alot of Doctors do NOT deal with death well. They do a great job of sticking death in a special compartment and leaving it there. They are trained to be distant and professional.
Second Dad is not close with his own father, and had been close with Mom's Dad in the past (before A). I dont think DAD is handling Mom's Fathers illness and impending death very well. Doctors want to heal and fix ilness. It is very tough when they cant and horrible when it is someone in there own family. My own husband still has not recovered from his fathers disease and death, and it's been years.
SOM <hr /></blockquote>This was a pretty insightful post I must admit. I think anyone who deals with life and death on a daily basis has to "compartmentalize" death to do their job. As a physician (and especially one who deals with trauma and the catastrophic sequale) this is my way of life. I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of why dad23b is struggling but I think your overall premise of MD's who want to "fix" everything and struggle when they can't (especially when it is theor own family) is prety accurate.

LM,
I'm leaning towards this as well... it appears to me this would be one of those..."seemed like a good idea at the time" deals.

With the pressure cooker working...it's difficult not to have all kinds of stuff running through your head.

Hang in there D23...think of it this way....if you can make it through all this... you'll make it through anything life throws at you.

M23 mentioned that you didn't think your M would survive after the OC is born.

Maybe it's best to work some of those things our NOW....there is obviously stuff going on in your head.

Too much on your plate right now... the A, the OW, ailing FIL, Dr. Phil, 3 boys. I swear to God I don't know how you people survive.. so much stress.... I think you're both doing amazingly well...all things considered.

M&D,

Okay, I did not read much of anyones' responses.

Dad, OK. I know Dr Phil is stessful, ow being pg is stessful. But you are trying for recovery, right? In spite of it all.

Dr Phil is over at this point. You all had your 15 minutes of fame. It will be over soon. I hope you got good advice, and no one will remember who you all are next week. I just hope you got some good advice.

Now is Mt3B's time with her dad. He has a limited time now. Please try to support her. You won't be sorry you did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Especially if you want recovery. After all, you went on tv, right?

Forget everything and be in the moment for father of mom. Support please, taking care of kids, whatever.

I cannot stress how important this is in the long term, and dad, you should know this as you work with those old folks in the nursing home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Mom, just relax and be there for your father.

Think about the other stuff later.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StressedOutMom:
 .

IFirst alot of Doctors do NOT deal with death well. They do a great job of sticking death in a special compartment and leaving it there. They are trained to be distant and professional.
Second Dad is not close with his own father, and had been close with Mom's Dad in the past (before A). I dont think DAD is handling Mom's Fathers illness and impending death very well. Doctors want to heal and fix ilness. It is very tough when they cant and horrible when it is someone in there own family. My own husband still has not recovered from his fathers disease and death, and it's been years.
I feel dads response is to Mom's fathers illness is to alienate Mom and her family so he does not have to deal with it.
OK Dr Phil I am not, It's just my opinion.
SOM <hr /></blockquote>thanks for making that point I had not even realized that.

[ November 11, 2004, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: dadto3boys ]

Dad,

Today WILL BE HARD for you. It takes a lot of courage to let people know what you do. I remember my husband explaining something like "It wasn't like that." To be with another person and make them happy -- what could be wrong with that? BUT when it comes out, and the reaction is horror by your W and now the nation, that will be difficult to take.

Good luck to you today and in the future weeks as people recognize you and talk about you. YOU ARE FACING THE TRUTH. Only good can come of it...
Cherished

dadto3boys,

People made mistake but it is not about the mistake it is about you are doing afterward define YOU. Do you want to be remember as a Dad that left his wife & 3 boys or a Dad that made mistake and doing everything to get his family to survive his mistake ?.

I am glad you got help and there is no better help then getting from Dr. Phil. I really appreciate you for going live in prime time ... to remind many other Dads not to go there. I hope that a few months from now Dr. Phil would do follow up and you could be the Dad to your wife and boys.

hang in there ... when time is very tough, just do the right things w/o thinking and delay the wrong things as long as you can until you get stronger to avoid it. I have faith in both of you would make it. Both of you want the same thing ... a happy family and a fulfilling M.

-rh-

[ November 11, 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]

I don't buy the notion of letting Dad2 off because he can't handle death well...he works in a NURSING HOME! How many patients get better and go home???? Good grief! Where has sense gone!

I doubt Dr. Phil or anyone else counseling Dad would pat his hand and say bless you, your suffering because Mom's Dad is dying. Give me a break! This isn't about Dad2, it's about what Mom2 and the drama that Dad2 keeps inflicting on her at the worst possible time!

His obsession about xow has nothing to do with Mom2's crisis, it's all about Dad2's character. I thought the joke about going on a television talk show was base. I hope Dr. Phil reads these posts and sees how Dad2 considers the whole thing a joke. Like I said, ridiculous.

Dad2 is jerking some people around just as he has jerked Mom2 and ow. He deserves the misery he would experience with ow. And that's just what he'll get...misery.

D2, I know I've 2x4ed you in the past. I'm not going to do that now. As I've mentioned to you before, you and my H were posting at the same time about your withdrawal, I think back in Jan/Feb. At the time of our d-day H's A had been going on for about 9 months. He had a very intense EA/PA, thought he was "in-love", wondered if he should leave our boys and me, etc. So he was in deep. Plus, she was his office manager in a small business, and he depended on her that way also.

H and I were talking about you and M2's situation yesterday. Our situation could very well have been your siruation, except for one thing. Truthfully, I don't think I would have stuck in there like M2. We'd probably be Ded by now. Somehow my H was able to stick with NC, minus a month of phone contact after she stopped working for him. Maybe in his gut he knew I'd be gone if he screwed up. Maybe somewhere deep inside of him he knew what he had at home was far better than he could ever have with her. Maybe we were just lucky because our OW, who was a predator, stopped chasing him once he gave her the boot.

My H's withdrawal was very bad. It was hell for both of us. I want you to know that it does get better. In our case it amazes me to see how my H went from an in-love state to where he is now. When he thinks of OW and what he did it is with disgust. He has thanked me numerous times, in his words, for "not throwing him away." He told me one of the biggest losses for him was his integrity, and that he now feels like he is getting back with God. He also has told me several times that "Reality is much better than the fantasy", and he knows it was a fantasy now.

I don't have a doubt that the only way you have a chance of waking up is to really have NC with the OW. As long as you even run into her, you are prolonging recovery and healing.

The last thing I want to say is this. During these past months there have been many times that I have felt my H hold back his feelings for me. I came to this conclusion and we talked about it. Somehow he was waiting for all his feelings for her to disappear, and his feelings for me to reappear, before he tried to meet my ENs. That ain't gonna happen overnight. If you wait for the feelings, and base your actions on the feelings, it's going to be months before you try and meet M2's ENs. I had to tell my H periodically to kick it up a notch because I was growing weary, and he did. I am advising you to start kicking in. You don't have to be phony and do or say anything you don't mean. However, you can call M2 on the phone and tell her you're thinking of her. You can hold her and let her cry over her dad, or her life right now. You can hold her hand tight at her dad's funeral. You can restrain from adding anything negative to her life right now. You can take care of your boys and just be giving. I'm telling you that your feelings will return. And when they do, you won't believe that you allowed this OW to poison you and your M. I use the word poison because THAT is how my H looks at OW now.

Final thought. Have you made peace with your FIL? If you were close maybe it would be good for you to finish any unfinished business with him.

Sorry if this was too long and possibly preachy. I really hope for YOU that you have the strength to get through the withdrawal. Because I know you will be a very unhappy man if you choose the OW. Also, it takes real guts to go on Dr. Phil. I don't think you would have done that if you didn't love M2 and your boys. Good luck! CV

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jph:
 I don't buy the notion of letting Dad2 off because he can't handle death well...he works in a NURSING HOME! How many patients get better and go home???? Good grief! Where has sense gone!

I doubt Dr. Phil or anyone else counseling Dad would pat his hand and say bless you, your suffering because Mom's Dad is dying. Give me a break! This isn't about Dad2, it's about what Mom2 and the drama that Dad2 keeps inflicting on her at the worst possible time!

His obsession about xow has nothing to do with Mom2's crisis, it's all about Dad2's character. I thought the joke about going on a television talk show was base. I hope Dr. Phil reads these posts and sees how Dad2 considers the whole thing a joke. Like I said, ridiculous.

Dad2 is jerking some people around just as he has jerked Mom2 and ow. He deserves the misery he would experience with ow. And that's just what he'll get...misery. <hr /></blockquote>Well, if you read most of SOM posts she has been very very supportive of dt3b and Mom (to the point of "almost" utter denial that the OC is his). Nothing wrong with that, just an observation. It is not suprising that she is "spinning" this all in the best light possible. I just think the "high" of the "recovery" is over and now the descent into despair/recovery is painful and reality is slamming this unfortunate situation in the face. I for one hope everything works out. Unfortunately, this has to be a very very painful time for everyone. I think D23b has gotten off pretty easy considering all the pain and despair he has caused MULTIPLES TIMES OVER, however I feel sorry for him still. The reality that the airing of this Dr Phil show will bring is something that very very few men could handle. There is likely to be outrage as most people are not familiar with the MB principles and will not be as "forgiving" and "dismissive" as many on here. Ofcourse, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, but you can't LIVE on this MB. The views and beliefs of people on this message board are a small minority of life and UNFORTUNATLEY he has to make a living and interact with the "other non-MB belivers, etc.." He cannot live live in a Marriage builders vacuum. This is going to be a tough couple of days/weeks for his psyche and esteem. If ever there was a deterrent to have an affair, his and MOm's predicament is it. It is all so sad. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

This will be a tough day as the A will be exposed again in a MOST National light. I'll be thinking of you today and Mom and taping the show. (Or in the words of the late, great Sullivan...the "Shoooeew")

Once OW sees the show she will most likely try to contact you to straighten the story out, or tell you one more tidbit...please resist the temptation, every contact with her is continuing the A and back to square one.

This is your life, and especially with an OC, there will be excuses your entire life for you and the OW to be in contact and for hte A to reignite. And this is Mom's life...can you see why she wants to give up?

So...what can YOU do to reassure her? When she wrote that you called her when you were in the parking lot at the NH because OW was there to ask what to do...bravo!! You scored points with Mom. But the withdrawal can be hard on a BS, because they know you are waffling and could go back to the OW at any moment.

My suggestion? Come up with a plan, make a plan for every possible situation that could come up...talk ith over with Mom...POJA the heck out of any possible contact with OW.

What to do right now while she's gone? Write to her, every thought, every nasty little thought no matter how hurtful...these letters don't have to go to her...you can revise them later and give her the rewritten edition...instead of the letter with the gory details about how you miss the OW's smell, let Mom know there are things about the OW you miss...

I'm thinking about you and Mom!!!

(Edited to add...)

Read this to my FWH and asked if this was good advice, he said "I think so". Asked if there was anything else I could add? He said, "That it will get better."

It will get better, the pain you feel for OW will lessen, the anger and hurt you see in Mom's eyes will lessen, and the love will return...but there is no hope for this until the OW is OUT of hte picture entirely. Speaking from a year out from the start of recovery, it DOES get better!!

[ November 11, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]

Wow...I just got done watching the Dr. Phil show. Mom--*hugs* I do say that I wish there was a 'happy ending' to the show.
So many things that D23B said hit home with my situation.
Did anyone tape the show? I would really like a tape, but I completly forgot.
I would like my H to watch it sometime when he is gone.
Keep us posted...
Danielle

I was on national TV exposing a portion of my personal life ... about 16 years ago. ~People's Court~

I had NO idea how many people would recognize me ... ~especially~ patients. "Oh, I saw you on TV."

It was embarrasing. And I WON, it was still embarrasing. And there are RE-RUNS season after season. Just when you think everyone has forgotten about it, there it is again in re-run. Our case was about a pit bull dog attack, and every time there was a dog bite story on the news... there I was again ... "Yes your honor." I was so tired of hearing about it ... years after it was aired.

I would never do it again.

I suspect this Dr Phil show will impact not only D23B's personal reputation, but will have financial consequences as well. People looking for a Doc to take care of their ailing family member... if given a choice, would probably choose a Doc who did not get his nurse pregnant, and go on TV to talk about it.

I am not saying this is right or wrong, but I suspect this will be one of the many consequences from the TV exposure.

Pep

I watched the show this morning. I'm sitting here shaking my head in disbelief. I know Dad was being honest, but feeling like your wife is below you, that she is stupid? And some of those little smirks when the Ow was brought up.

Dad you need to make a choice and stop dragging Mom through this.

I'm on both sides of the fence here, been cheated on and have also done the cheating. I also know what you are going through. It takes alot of strength to stand up and go NC with the OP. Especially when a child is involved. If, IF you want to make your marriage work it can be done. It's not an easy road, but it can happen.

Best of luck to both of you.

jph/LemonhJead

I am not in denial. I made the statement do to GOOD medical facts.
Fact one: OW was sexually active with her BF the month she conceived. Mom spoke to her BF in great lengths. The BF confirmed that they (OW and BF) were together ALOT.

Fact 2: based on her LMP and US EDC (mom has those dates) DAD was with MOM and 3 boys on a camping trip during the time conception was most probable.

Fact 3: OW has proven time and time again to be a lair.

Is there a chance the baby is Dad's ? of course
he was with OW that month too. Funny though how the OW INSISTS it's Dads even though she was with the BF. Also remember how OW wanted BOTH BF and DAD in the delivery. Now why would a woman want that ?? so I will keep my doubts until paternity test is done.

I totally disagree with JPH that this is dads "character" This has been a few months of his character. What about the other 14 years he has spent with MOM ? I guess that man never really existed? DAD is not a serial cheater
This is his first (and hopefully last) experience with being unfaithful. I imagine all the feelings of confusion Moms pain and this pregnancy has him half crazy.

And for the record on him working in a nursing home and dealing with death. Well I can speak only for my own situation. When it's your own family It is very different. especially when there is disease and suffering. I watched my H go through it, and recently I went through it.
Death is part of Medicine, But trust me it is not what these people went into medicine for.
They went there to heal, cure and save.
I could go on but you wont get it.
It was not an excuse for Dad, I talk to Mom all the time. I noticed Dad's personality change drastically every time Mom's father take a turn for the worst.
It's an observation. One I made based on my own experiences as a RN watching Doctors give "bad news" to families (their own personalities changing). And my own experience with my H.

There is no excuse for infidelity, NONE. It is a rotten thing to do to someone you love. It is a rotten thing to do to the Mother/Father of your children, period. I am glad I came here before I became a WW.

I know I have been "over supportive" to Mom and Dad. I guess because I am more privy to the situation. I really believe their marriage can be saved. That man Loves her and I know Mom Loves him. They have very unique boys that need their father. And if this baby is Dad's I know Mom will accept the situation. That woman is tough as nails !!!
SOM

Whenever the comment is made "But this is the first and only affair so-and-so has had..."

I always say to myself "that we know of".

It may be. But we really could not say that with certainty. Just because we don't know of a previous affair, doesn't constitute a "fact" that there was not one.

Just don't know. And that includes my own FWH as well.

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StressedOutMom:
 jph/LemonhJead

I am not in denial. I made the statement do to GOOD medical facts.
Fact one: OW was sexually active with her BF the month she conceived. Mom spoke to her BF in great lengths. The BF confirmed that they (OW and BF) were together ALOT.

Fact 2: based on her LMP and US EDC (mom has those dates) DAD was with MOM and 3 boys on a camping trip during the time conception was most probable.

Fact 3: OW has proven time and time again to be a lair.

Is there a chance the baby is Dad's ? of course
he was with OW that month too. Funny though how the OW INSISTS it's Dads even though she was with the BF. Also remember how OW wanted BOTH BF and DAD in the delivery. Now why would a woman want that ?? so I will keep my doubts until paternity test is done.

I totally disagree with JPH that this is dads "character" This has been a few months of his character. What about the other 14 years he has spent with MOM ? I guess that man never really existed? DAD is not a serial cheater
This is his first (and hopefully last) experience with being unfaithful. I imagine all the feelings of confusion Moms pain and this pregnancy has him half crazy.

And for the record on him working in a nursing home and dealing with death. Well I can speak only for my own situation. When it's your own family It is very different. especially when there is disease and suffering. I watched my H go through it, and recently I went through it.
Death is part of Medicine, But trust me it is not what these people went into medicine for.
They went there to heal, cure and save.
I could go on but you wont get it.
It was not an excuse for Dad, I talk to Mom all the time. I noticed Dad's personality change drastically every time Mom's father take a turn for the worst.
It's an observation. One I made based on my own experiences as a RN watching Doctors give "bad news" to families (their own personalities changing). And my own experience with my H.

There is no excuse for infidelity, NONE. It is a rotten thing to do to someone you love. It is a rotten thing to do to the Mother/Father of your children, period. I am glad I came here before I became a WW.

I know I have been "over supportive" to Mom and Dad. I guess because I am more privy to the situation. I really believe their marriage can be saved. That man Loves her and I know Mom Loves him. They have very unique boys that need their father. And if this baby is Dad's I know Mom will accept the situation. That woman is tough as nails !!!
SOM <hr /></blockquote>SOM:

I hope this diatribe was not directed at me, b/c quite honestly you could have saved your breath. I was just making an observation (could be wrong) with how you always "spin" this topic. You don't need to come up with 100 reasons for why your opinion is fact. It doesn't matter to me. You should support the mom and d2b as much as you want. There is no such thing as being "over supportive", just realize that people's views will be different and that yours is not necessarily fact. One point I will contend is that you state quite feverishly that:

"Fact 3: OW has proven time and time again to be a lair."

FACT: SO HAS DAD2B !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! His past actions SPEAK VOLUMES !!!!!!!!!

It is very nice that he has you in his corner. That is great for him. I hope this works out for them. Hopefully they have the same faith in their marriage as you seem to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ November 11, 2004, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: lemonman ]

jph/LemonhJead,

You know ... if you ask any FWH that has gotten out from their fog ... They will say the same thing as you do !!!!. Also ... A doesn't happen in one day ... separating from A would take a slow process.

I second SOM ... I met and spent 1 day w. them when he is in thickest/deepest fog. I could still see the love that he has for m3b. There is no question about m3b's love for him. He has additional baggages that he brought into his M, I am sure Dr. Phil will provide him IC too.

-rh-

LM- <blockquote>quote:<hr /> These are the times that make real men, are you gonna be one?
<hr /></blockquote>--sure liked seeing that statement.

Too often, we all go with our feelings - instead of actions that reflect how we should feel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />People made mistake but it is not about the mistake it is about you are doing afterward define YOU. ...
and
...when time is very tough, just do the right things w/o thinking and delay the wrong things as long as you can until you get stronger to avoid it. <hr /></blockquote>Such inspiration....

First of all I would like to extend my gratitude to all who have shown interest or not in our situation. I would also like to thank everyone for their prayers for my father during his last few days. I am keeping by his bedside and he is resting comfortably right now. Yesterday he had a great day, today he is really bad.

That said, let me also say that I still have not read all the replie here. It still amazes me the traffic that I/we get on our threads. I was joking with SOM this morning how all I have to do is start a thread and sit back and watch it. Seriously, it trruly means a lot to me all the support that I/we get on this board. I have printed out 50 pages and i am still reading them.

I have not seen the show yet. Frankly I do not want to see it, but I will. I know dad will come off as an arrogant ***. He really DOES have a good heart when he WANTS to...but yes, he is extremely self absorbed.

And THAT is my biggest problem right now. I cannot be two places at one time. THe comment Dad said to me on Monday did not sit well, but i am tryingto let it go.I am trying to look at his actions. Yes, he is at home. Yes, he is being honest. I know he still has doubts, but I cannot go on knowing he will doubt it the rest of his life.

I have asked dad to come down to get me this weekend. This is the conversation

mom: Why dont you come up wit hthe kids and get me this weekend, that way I can go home for a few days and then come back to SAT next Wed or thurs. (my father could linger for weeks and I still need to take care of MY family too)

dad: well, I dont know if I am going racing or not....

OK, so last night I called him and said:

mom: why dont you bring the kids up and drop them off, then go racing then come back and get us

dad: you mean drive all the way up there, then all the way downto the valley then all the way Back up there..NO

mom: ok, well, I am just trying to compensate here. I dont have a car, yes, i can take my moms..but...

this mroning...again

mom: you know, i would REALLY like to be with my family AND my father right now. I cant be two places at one time. Why dont you drive up here Saturday and stay and we can go back together n Sunday...

dad: Saturday, why cant i come up on Friday...

mom: you can, whtaever you want..

dad: well, I dont know if I am going racing or not.

mom: UGH! see it is ALWAYS about you...you, you, you...I am TRYING to compensate here Ed. FINE..I dont want to ruin YOUR plans...

dad: I know,I'm just a selfish SOB, arent' I...

whatever!

you see, I am TRYING here. I have no car here. I KNOW I cannot stay here indefinitley..I knOW I need ot be home..dad cant do it all..althouhg he was able to work fulltime and have the A, but that's beside the point....

We are our worst enemies right now. he cant stop wanting to give HIMSELF satisfaction while at the same time I NEED him to be focused on ME for a change. I just want to throw up my hands and say fine, I give up.

I do love him, I do want my marriage, but he has got to get out of this selfish stage of his. NOW! It is NOT all about you, you, you! Is he trying to push me away. UGH!

[ November 11, 2004, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

m23b-

i've read some of your thread - and have never posted or anything, but your last post you mentioned SAT and "the valley" -

jw - are you from TX?

brg

OH mom I saw your pic on the Dr. Phil site you are sooo beautiful *hugs*....

*smacks Dad* HEY! get up and outta your funk boy! *smacks again for good measure* forget racing I know your feeling down especially with the show coming on today...but get up and shake off those feelings that have a hold on you....your family is going through a hell of a time and they need you....you know mom's dad is not well...you should be spending as much time as a family with him now as possible....you don't know whats going to happen...make his last days great ones....screw racing...family comes first....

[ November 11, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: missinghimterribly ]

mom: Why dont you come up wit hthe kids and get me this weekend, that way I can go home for a few days and then come back to SAT next Wed or thurs. (my father could linger for weeks and I still need to take care of MY family too)
mom: Why dont you come up wit hthe kids and get me this weekend, that way I can go home for a few days and then come back to SAT next Wed or thurs. (my father could linger for weeks and I still need to take care of MY family too)

dad: well, I dont know if I am going racing or not....

OK, so last night I called him and said:

mom: why dont you bring the kids up and drop them off, then go racing then come back and get us

dad: you mean drive all the way up there, then all the way downto the valley then all the way Back up there..NO

mom: ok, well, I am just trying to compensate here. I dont have a car, yes, i can take my moms..but...

this mroning...again

mom: you know, i would REALLY like to be with my family AND my father right now. I cant be two places at one time. Why dont you drive up here Saturday and stay and we can go back together n Sunday...

dad: Saturday, why cant i come up on Friday...

mom: you can, whtaever you want..

dad: well, I dont know if I am going racing or not.

mom: UGH! see it is ALWAYS about you...you, you, you...I am TRYING to compensate here Ed. FINE..I dont want to ruin YOUR plans...

dad: I know,I'm just a selfish SOB, arent' I...

copy this conversation...

this is a perfect example of what the communication problems are...

see if he won't just read what's posted above...

all you want..
all you have ever wanted is a straight answer..

in your responses is an effort to try many different ways to meet your needs AS well as consindering his....

see if he can see this....

ARK..

I saw the show..
you both looked great...

momto you looked strong and sad...
dadto you looked sad...

dadto you said many times during the show you feel all of this is out of your control...

yet the truth is ...is that you are the one who gave/gives up the control...

you threw this huge boulder into a pond and got a huge splash.....
and have left your wife and OW struggling in the water to get the stone out...
and the waters have settled you stand there and do or say nothing...

you my friend are holding the pebbles in your hand that get this thing started...and you got to throw a stone in to get the ripples....

your indecision is just as much as a decesion...

you want no casualties in this..and that is too late...there already are...

it doesn't make you the eternal whipping boy...
but you gotta act the right way...and choose the right path....

ARK

OK, just one last thought before the show starts. I look bad on this show. I look like a doormat. I look like a poor little betrayed spouse who is going to do whatever her WS wants. I am NOT like that. I was completely shell shocked that day. Iwas scared. I was stage fright. jUst wait til next weeks show! I am a fiesty little firecracker <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mom wrote:
I do love him, I do want my marriage, but he has got to get out of this selfish stage of his. NOW! It is NOT all about you, you, you! Is he trying to push me away. UGH! <hr /></blockquote>You nailed it, Mom. Don't give Dad any excuses to do anything stupid.

I remember when my then-H and I reconciled. During recovery he would intentionally pick fights with me for an excuse to have contact. He denied the intention then, but after we got through his withdrawal and my hurt, he admitted it.

Try not to take things personally -- is the only advice I can give you. I know you've been through the ringer with all the back-and-forth of the A, but do your best.

Just know others have gone before you.

Love,
Jo

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:
 OK, just one last thought before the show starts. I look bad on this show. I look like a doormat. I look like a poor little betrayed spouse who is going to do whatever her WS wants. I am NOT like that. I was completely shell shocked that day. Iwas scared. I was stage fright. jUst wait til next weeks show! I am a fiesty little firecracker <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Oh pssshaw.....i still think you looked very pretty....but I am setting tivo to record the show and I am taking DS to the aquarium...we are gonna go see the great white shark there

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:
 OK, just one last thought before the show starts. I look bad on this show. I look like a doormat. I look like a poor little betrayed spouse who is going to do whatever her WS wants.
<hr /></blockquote>MT3B, darlin', you know WE know you aren't that way. Don't have to explain anything to the MB crowd.

I watched it. Wished I hadn't in a way. It is so much of the same old song Ed's been singing over the last, what, eight, nine months?

Ugh.

MT3B you are a beautiful, caring, intelligent woman. You have a fantastic life ahead of you, no matter what happens from here on out between you and DT3B.

DT3B, you I worry about. Something Dr. Phil said struck me as so true in your case: that you'll find the same problems will follow you from relationship to relationship.

I hope you find a way to truly come to grips with the situation you created and a way to resolve it that doesn't crush everyone around you.

~ Snow

What struck me as most truthful was that the only thing DT3Bs and OW know about each other is that they are untrustworthy. MT3B, you don't look like a doormat. You look like a woman who is turning over over stone to try to make her relationship with Dad work, and he is not sure she's worth his effort.

Cherished

I agree, Mom23B, you didn't come off as a doormat...you were just a bit nervous, as anyone would be. I'm not sure I would've been able to form words at all up on stage with Dr. Phil!

BTW, you're a very pretty lady, Mom! Strong, too. The show only gave a glimpse here and there of your strength...but we here at MB know what strength it has taken for you to stand for your marriage.

I'll say a prayer for your Dad's peace and comfort. And strength and courage for you.

Lori

I watched the show....it was over an hour ago....and I had some things I wanted to post.

BUT!

I decided that if I couldn't say anything nice about dad....then I wouldn't say anything at all.

Mom.....I didn't think you looked like a doormat....I just thought you looked nervous....can't wait to see the update though.

[ November 11, 2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cherished:
What struck me as most truthful was that the only thing DT3Bs and OW know about each other is that they are untrustworthy. MT3B, you don't look like a doormat. You look like a woman who is turning over over stone to try to make her relationship with Dad work, and he is not sure she's worth his effort.

Cherished <hr /></blockquote>((( Cherished )))

Your ability to SEE things with clarity has grown exponentially.

YOU are healing!!!!

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi sweetie....just watched the show....you looked very pretty...kind of subdued, spent. Yes, you weren't the spitfire I've come to know and love on MB....but hey...YOU WERE ON TV!! knowing that millions would be watching...I'm sure I would have been like a deer caught in the headlights! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I think if I had heard Ed utter the word "torn" one more time, I might have torn his head off!

I think Dr.Phil had some important messages though. Among the many, I'd like to repeat these:

*Why give away your power? You have every right to take control of your own choices and decide what you will tolerate, but remember, what you tolerate will not change. Letting Ed choose you is not nearly as important at this point as you choosing to take control of your life instead of waiting for the next waffle.

*Ed will eventually end up just as "bored" with this OW as he has been with you. Pretty soon, there won't be sexy meetings...it'll be diapers and child rearing and all the same stuff he's running from now and he'll be just as bored and just as restless because he'll still have to live with his boring, selfish self....and she may not look nearly as good as you do after delivery. He might not understand the truth until then...but by then, he may have done so much damage to his life, and the lives around him...happiness will elude him. Until he lives authentically...and is willing to end and begin relationships honorably...he will continue to be torn up inside.

*Keep the kids out of this mess....the stuff they know is far beyond what they can handle. My heart breaks for them.

*This pregnancy was a planned accident. A doctor, a nurse...you do the math. You had one major thing this OW couldn't compete with...his children...she fixed that. He helped her.

*He wants to be undeserving of you...because it gets him off the hook. He pushes you because you're stronger than he is. If he acts badly enough, perhaps he can make you end the marriage and he doesn't have to.

The question is....what do you do now? Well, realistically, until the addiction wears off...there isn't much you CAN do....although I honestly believe your marriage is not over. The question is...do you want to live with him while that happens and he does the flipper routine? Or would you be better off in Plan B? I personally would like to see you more protected...as well as your children. Right now, as he said...he leads a double life...but you can choose whether you're willing to do the same. I hope you don't. I hope that you're able to keep the door to your marriage open, while not allowing him to continue to disrespect you by going to her, then waltzing home everytime it's convenient for him.

I would have gone seriously medieval on him a long time ago....I'd be in a Plan B so dark the sun would stop shining. But hey...that's just me.

hugs mom....and oh YEAH...that whole "intelectually incompatible" garbage....you aren't the one who looks intellectually challenged!!

[ November 11, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by star*fish:
*This pregnancy was a planned accident. A doctor, a nurse...you do the math. You had one major thing this OW couldn't compete with...his children...she fixed that. He helped her.<hr /></blockquote>Super-dooper insight!!!

Etch this comment in STONE!!!!

Pep

I put this in another thread about this situation . . . I am reposting it here so that mt3b has a better chance of seeing it.

Hi all,

I didn't catch the show, but have been following Mom's posts for a long time.

There is still something I don't get. Maybe I never will. Even if there is a new child on the way with the mistress . . . how could one even consider leaving the home of the three kids one already has? I just don't get it. I am a child of divorce . . . and really it just sucked.

Sometimes marriage is hard . . . sometimes it plain old sucks . . . but in the end . . . what really matters more than having someone that wants to spend their life with you? Especially someone that knows what a jerk you can be, but still wants to be with you? What could be better than being there to watch you kids grow?

Someone should tell dt3b that happieness is a fleeting emotion. It comes and goes. Sometimes real-life does get in the way of having a fantastic, wonerful sexlife . . . Sometimes I think that dt3b is still trying to lead the life of a frat boy.

The only bumper sticker I've ever owned really sums up this situation . . . "Mean People Suck."

I guess you could chage "mean" to self-centered, egotistical, spoiled ********. . . but the print wouldn't fit on the average bumper.

I'm real sorry Mom . . .

[ November 11, 2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

Wait Dad - you think it's bad now? You think it's harsh and you're indecisive and yadayadayada.......IT GETS WORSE. YOU HAVE AN OW JUST LIKE OURS. JUST AS MANUPLATIVE, JUST AS HARSH, JUST AS LOW CLASS.

You will see one way or another. You think it's messy now.....you've no idea. And the longer you squat on that fence (btw: I think I saw in one of the pics on the Dr. Phil web site that the fencepost is beginning to come out of your mouth), the messier and uglier it's gonna get.

Mom - My dearling, YOU KNOW I'VE BTDT. You know what YOU can tolerate....but the longer Dad sits there....OY! You need me - I'm there in a heartbeat - In a milisecond....I didn't want dad to not like us being friends because - you know - we're in similar sitches....but I could give a rat's hiney less if he doesn't like me right now.

Dad - I'm fed-exing a crowbar, between that and lemonman's skill as a surgeon, maybe we can have your head removed from you know where.

I am NOT going to apologize for any DJs here. Dad, you done pissed me the heck off.

You cannot tell me, "There but for the Grace of God...." b/c I've got an inside scoop that NONE of the posters here have - OC - and I HAVE GONE THERE.....you DON'T WANT TO SEE HOW BAD IT'LL GET the longer you keep waffling. Cause it gets worse than your worst nightmare.

You are NOT doing the right thing squatting there.

Oh, and a DJ, but your posts are not NEARLY as well thought out, concise and grammatically correct as Mom's so PL-UH-ESE don't ever utter the words:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "intelectually incompatible" <hr /></blockquote>again. YOU aren't worthy. You may be a Dr....but it didn't make you anything but book smart.

- Kimmy

PS - Mom, I love you SO much...I'm sorry to YOU to be so mad at your dwh....but please understand that I want so badly (almost as badly as you do) for you all to have your "happily ever after...." That's only going to happen when Ed QUITS THINKING OF ED ALL THE EFFING TIME.

ah come on Kimmy! What do you REALLY think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

dadof3boys:

Just how freaking old are you?????

Because with all your "me, me, me", you are hitting around 6 years old. Pathetic.

Your wife's father is dying, you're having an A and your OW is pg with your kid (or so she says). AND YOU HAVE THE AUDACITY TO SAY TO YOUR WIFE, "I DON'T KNOW IF I'M GOING RACING" WHEN SHE IS BASICALLY PLEADING FOR SOME HELP??????

Holy *hit! You are one self centred SOB, aren't you???

My kids have more empathy than you do, and they are younger than 6.

My advice: realize that you are an ADULT, buck the *uck up and take some responsibility for your actions and your family.

You're pathetic.

p.s: momof3boys- forgive me, but your H just brings out the worst in me. I do not mean to hurt you with my post.

Mom,You looked great on the show. Your beautiful eyes said it all. You are in pain, but you are a a classy, amazing woman! I thought you seemed strong--you want your marriage to work.

Remember the MB stuff--your H isn't even in withdrawal right now b/c of the continuing contact. I honestly don't think he will EVER come out of his self centered FOG (racing? Give me a darn break!) to try and meet your needs until the NC is established for a while and he really goes through withdrawal. This was true for my H after numerous relapses of contact.

I am sorry about your dad. Please take care of yourself and him now. I think you need to tell dad, not ASK--to get himself and the boys in the car and come and get you. If he doesn't do it, get someone else to take the boys out to you and stay with them. I am SURE you can find someone who loves you and whom you trust to help you.

I actually think you need to do Plan B again except for the Dr. Phil show. Let him LIVE the consequences of his actions for long enough that it sinks in. No more back and forth. Until he comes back with a commitment to the M and a PLAN, no contact with you. But for now, take care of yourself and your dad in this difficult time.

posted this elsewhere- figured it was better here

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wow M&D-
tough yet good show. Dad you were honest but looked a little annoyed and maybe mocking the situation. However it could be how uncomfortable you were in that situation. It is very hard to go on National TV and talk about things that personal, that close to the heart. I think you all did a very good job.

DT3B- time to get off the fence- too many lives you are ruining all for someone who does not respect marriage or family. If it did work out, how long do you think she could be faithful. What kind of morals are you or the OW going to be capable of showing your kids?

Also why in blue blazes would you have unprotected sex with another women <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> YOu are a doctor for petes sake- do you want AIDS? You have no clue where she has been, and bet you never had her tested before you went dancing in the rain with out a jacket. pregnancy with someone other then your wife while married was not a smart decision. If you wanted out then you should have gotten out, now a innocent child is being brought into this situation, Not fair to your wife, not fair to your boys and not fair to this child.

This OW is a lowlife piece of work. Willing to sleep unprotected with a married man, then having the gall to say she did it because YOU were unhappy in the marriage? Yeah like she was helping the situation. Some friend she was. A real friend would help you with you wife, not pull you away. Best of luck to you, you are on a hard road with tough decisions to make. Just make sure you can LIVE with yourself in the decision you make. Make sure you can look your children in the eyes and be able to say you tried your best. That their mother was not enough. Trust me my mother had an affair, my brother sister and I have NEVER gotten over it completely. IT is now 18 years later. I am now 26, and still struggle with it everyday. I just hope you know the life sentence of mistrust you are giving your children. All for a moraless woman who let herself get pregnant by a married man.

Hang in there. Sorry this has to be so hard.

YOu both looked great too, good job coordinateing (yeah sad I noticed- but hey I am female).

SOM
I think you mis-read my post. My objections were the excuses that he's a doctor and can't face death so that gave him a "by" in helping Mom2 during her ordeal. There is no excuse and Mom2's posts since then have cemented my feelings on the subject. Her Dad is dying and he wants to go racing! It's not because he's a doctor and can't face death, it's because he's a selfish monster that if his sentences can't being with "I" they end with "me."

What struck me on the show was Dad2 making the comment that he and Mom2 weren't on the same page intellectually. I think he was right on. Mom2 has to have an IQ that's significantly higher than Dad2's. They aren't on the same page! Sheesh!

Just finished the show ! I can't say that I was really shocked by anything on there. After reading this board for a while NOTHING SHOCKS ME ANYMORE. Mom, I don't think you came off as a doormat. You acted like all MB zealot BS act. Your intentions were clear that you would take your husband back and accept his OC as long as there was NC. Nothing new about this and in MB terms, this was not doormat behavior. This is all in the name of saving your marriage and that is what counts right?

I feel so incredibly sorry for your beautiful children. SO young and having to deal with a father WHO HAS LEFT THEM 4 TIMES. I can't imagine the egg shells and shattered psyche that they live with now. They are living EVERY waking moment thinking : "Is DAD gonna be home when I get home from school?" So young and having to ask about an STD?????? JFC !!!! I hope that you save your marrigae and win your husbands love and committment back. Your children are paying a heavy heavy price for your "saving your marriage".

I think there will be far reaching consequences for this show today. The wrold is cruel (don't you know that already <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )and I know how people are and I hope and pray that your children and you do not face scorn and "back turning" from the public. I would hate for your kids to be told by their friends mother that they can't play with them. Yes, I know that you center your entire life around the MB philosphy but UNFORTUNATELY for you and DAD, the world as a whole does NOT. You can't live in a MB vaccuum.

As for DAD, I will give him credit for being deathly honest. Many men would have said the "politically correct" thing to save face on TV and he did not. He came off pretty bad, but he was honest. You gotta give him credit. My sneaking suspicion is that Dad would almost be "upset" if this OC is not his. I may be wrong about that, but he gives off this impression to me. Anyways, this is my .02. I give you kudos for going to this length to save your marriage. DAd2b must be some fabulous man and father for you to put your children, family, and self through all of this. Chin up and good luck in saving your marriage and winning your husbands love and committment back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
My sneaking suspicion is that Dad would almost be "upset" if this OC is not his. I may be wrong about that, but he gives off this impression to me.<hr /></blockquote>I had the same suspicion! Weird.

Pep

Ditto

Noodle

Yep...."planned accident"

can you plan an accident? I think not...

You ain't seen nothin yet, wait till next week. The hate mail will turn to death threats. M23 had told me she was not planning on coming back until her dad passes. I had planned on maybe going racing this weekend to get away for a day. So I agreed not to and she posts it anyway. I skimmed the hate mail I earned every bit of it. Here is the hardest part for you and the rest to swallow jph....my 3 kids love me, my wife still loves me. We are still a family. That show taped 3 days into my recovery over a month ago. OK am I selfish, cruel, immature, self absorbed? Sure.
A monster? at times yes. It's addiction and the answer is strict NC. I have saved many peoples butts in the ER and caught many a rare disease to make a positive difference in many peoples lives. I have been practicing 13 years with zero law suits. So fire away I can't be all bad.

Hi dad,

I gotta give you credit for posting and going on Dr. Phil. Your wife DOES love you. Your boys DO love you. The question is...do you love THEM? Enough to fight for them? Enough to end contact?

I have never believed that either your marriage or you are beyond redemption...but it was truly painful watch your uncertainty. How are you feeling now?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dadto3boys:
I can't be all bad.<hr /></blockquote>Not saying "all bad" .... saying NO "accident"

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dadto3boys:
 You ain't seen nothin yet, wait till next week. The hate mail will turn to death threats. M23 had told me she was not planning on coming back until her dad passes. I had planned on maybe going racing this weekend to get away for a day. So I agreed not to and she posts it anyway. I skimmed the hate mail I earned every bit of it. Here is the hardest part for you and the rest to swallow jph....my 3 kids love me, my wife still loves me. We are still a family. That show taped 3 days into my recovery over a month ago. OK am I selfish, cruel, immature, self absorbed? Sure.
A monster? at times yes. It's addiction and the answer is strict NC. I have saved many peoples butts in the ER and caught many a rare disease to make a positive difference in many peoples lives. I have been practicing 13 years with zero law suits. So fire away I can't be all bad. <hr /></blockquote>Dad23b:

LOL, you are a family doc right????? Zero lawsuits in 13 years, BFD buddy.

I think you are right, your wife and kids do love you and you have them back AGAIN. I don't think any one here is questioning that. As far as I am concerned you have been able to do what ever the hell you wanted to do with zero consequences. You are pretty cocky and I would be to if I were you. You got to ***** a young nurse, leave your kids and forget about being a dad and yet you still have your doting wife and kids with no consequences YET !. I honestly think you could keep doing as you are doing and would still get away with it. That is your wifes choice, she values your marriage and the kids having a dad above anything else, LUCKY FOR YOU I GUESS. YOu have 9 lives buddy, I must say that.

Good luck with your life and medical practice. You are the first person that I would be thinking about when I need a primary care consult. I am sure that many other docs in your area are thinking the same. Your business should start booming soon.

[ November 11, 2004, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lemonman:
My sneaking suspicion is that Dad would almost be "upset" if this OC is not his. I may be wrong about that, but he gives off this impression to me. <hr /></blockquote>Yea that came across pretty strong IMO.

But not all that unusual.
If the child was NOT his.....then that means that He was being cheated on at the same time by his wonderful OW.

"You mean she might have been lying to YOU Dad 2 3??"

Oh No, not you! (**GASP**) Imagine that!

WS's NEVER seem to like it when it happens to them.
(I sure know my W didn't when she finally found out).
Kind of a Bizarre dynamic if you ask me.

Well...I just got finished watching. Don't know what to say.

There were some things that really bothered me... but I'm not going to rehash them...they've already been said...here there and everywhere.

My opinion ?

M23.... a doormat.? That's not what I saw, or what the general public saw.

I WILL tell you what I did see though..and D23..I think this would benefit you more than anyone.

I saw M23... NUMB. She is starting to shut down.

I hope things have changed at this point.

D23...you said..
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Here is the hardest part for you and the rest to swallow jph....my 3 kids love me, my wife still loves me. We are still a family <hr /></blockquote>We've known that all along. It's not a revelation, you don't really think M23 is fighting with all she's got for this M for ***** and giggles do you ?

But I am wondering why it wasn't followed up with and I love my 3 kids, and I love my wife.

This was a tough crowd, so I'm not going to go further into this.

I don't think you've really come to terms with what this has done to your family. Honestly. it's not funny, and it's not something to use as a literary retaliation. They've been damaged.... probably for the rest of their lives.

This situation is FAR more serious than you seem to realize.

[ November 11, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

BFD? The average is 3-5 every 5 years here buddy. 8000 hours in the ER by myself? What do you have a a friggin trauma team to come in with you? Business was fine today and will continue to be because most people could give a **** who you sleep with as long as your good. As for referals I do the referring to the specialists pal and so far I don't see them turning me down.

[ November 11, 2004, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dadto3boys:
 BFD? The average is 3-5 every 5 years here buddy. 8000 hours in the ER by myself? What do you have a a friggin trauma team to come in with you? Business was fine today and will continue to be because most people could give a s^&T who you sleep with as long as your good. As for referals I do the referring to the specialists pal and so far I don't see them turning me down. <hr /></blockquote>YOu got that right, we won't be turning any referalls down. PLese correct me, are you a family doc or ED doc? , just curious. LOL, and as far as my trauma team coming in with me, yeah kind of.... being as I am a trauma surgeon. No biggie though, please call with a consult...my future kids colleges depend on it. If this situation weren't so terribly pathetic I would be laughing my [censored] off at you, but sadly that is not the right thing to do here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You ain't seen nothin yet, wait till next week. The hate mail will turn to death threats. M23 had told me she was not planning on coming back until her dad passes. I had planned on maybe going racing this weekend to get away for a day. So I agreed not to and she posts it anyway. I skimmed the hate mail I earned every bit of it. Here is the hardest part for you and the rest to swallow jph....my 3 kids love me, my wife still loves me. We are still a family. That show taped 3 days into my recovery over a month ago. OK am I selfish, cruel, immature, self absorbed? Sure.
A monster? at times yes. It's addiction and the answer is strict NC. I have saved many peoples butts in the ER and caught many a rare disease to make a positive difference in many peoples lives. I have been practicing 13 years with zero law suits. So fire away I can't be all bad.

""my 3 kids love me, my wife still loves me. We are still a family. ""

I can not believe that you've said this. You know something yeah your wife and kids still love you for now, but will they respect you in the long run. Personally i would would want the LOVE AND RESPECT of my spouse and kids.
By the way your kids will always love you because you are their dad, but if you keep this up they will come to know that in the long run they can not count on you for substance.

I have to say that you wanting time off to go racing when you have had plenty of time off when you were sleeping with your girlfriend while your wife was taking care of your kids.

Now when she needs you the most for support your still worried about getting your needs met for racing.

I know that you think that she will stay and fight but I have to say that she will get to the point when she might want to throw in the towel, and be done with all of your drama.

As for the other woman well she slept with you knowing that you were married and that you were not happy in that marriage. what does that say with how she views the vows that you took with your wife ( we already know where you stand) plus what happens when if & you do decide to leave and get the divorce (she gunning for you to get) and she finds that all the $$$ that she thinks you have gets divided in half and that all the baggage that comes with a broken home, and she starts to zero in on the new young dr with no exwife and kids to deal with........ what happens when all the crap that you left behind follows with you.

P.S.
Let me tell that I was abused as a child by my older sister, now while I still do love her because she is family I do not like her nor do I respect her or have anything to do with her.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Dad wrote:
"I have saved many peoples butts in the ER and caught many a rare disease to make a positive difference in many peoples lives. I have been practicing 13 years with zero law suits. So fire away I can't be all bad."<hr /></blockquote>Dad,

What you do for a living does not excuse your actions as a man, husband and father ... or even a human being.

What you do for a living does not define you. It's how you "TREAT" the people who love you.

Please forgive me Dad, but your posts sound disturbingly smug.

I would think some of what has happened to you and your family in the last 6 mos would be used to learn from and perhaps even humble you. Have you considered that?

Jo

Dad

No hate here. I've been in your shoes. I know how it feels to be torn between two people. I've also been in Mom's shoes. Not knowing if your H is going to come home, or where is he tonight.

It's a hard place to be, I just wish I had all these wonderful people to knock me upside the head and set me straight. I did decied to stay with my H. Thank God!! Xmm showed his true colors and I would have been miserable with him.

If this child does turn out to be yours, Mom does have the capibility to love this child. It can be done. But be forward, most OW will and do play games when it comes to visits and anything else with the child.

nevermind

I'm probably not intelectual (did I spell that right?)enough to hold a conversation with dad anyway.

[ November 11, 2004, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]

Actually dt3b,

It could very well affect you. People may not care whose pants you are in..but they most certainly care that you have demonstrated poor judgement. Would YOU refer someone to a known addict whose homelife is coming apart at the seams?

They'll take the referrals from you..just probably not be giving any to you..as it could reflect badly on them.

Or not.

But you really won't have any way to predict..just have to wait and see.

Have you given any consideration to not having anything to do with this OC, even if it should prove to be yours?

Perhaps a finacial settlement and no contact [it's best if you never even see the child..so as not to emotionally attach]

I really think that is the best way to insure NC and the best way to demonstrate your devotion to your wife. She has suffered loss..it is time for you to as well, and giving up your lover doesn't count. Giving up this child would be a very positive statement to all involved, would free OW [whose judgement and soundness as a parent you trust implicitly right?..so no worry that she will be just fine without your presence] to find a full time Dad instead of Uncle Dad and allow everyone involved to move on with their lives.

Noodle

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ....my 3 kids love me, my wife still loves me. We are still a family. That show taped 3 days into my recovery over a month ago. OK am I selfish, cruel, immature, self absorbed? Sure.
A monster? at times yes. It's addiction and the answer is strict NC. I have saved many peoples butts in the ER and caught many a rare disease to make a positive difference in many peoples lives <hr /></blockquote>.

Dad,

My dad was involved in the Apollo Space Program. A very important part of putting the first man on the moon. Highly respected in his field. As a kid I knew this,,,but to me he was just...DAD. And I worshipped him. The very best dad in the world. It didn't matter to me how important he was at work or what he did for a living. All that mattered to me was that he loved me, my brother and sister AND Mom VERY much and spent every day of his life showing us that love.

Mom and Dad -

I still have lots of hope for the 2 of you and your family.

Mom - You are much stronger than you know. It takes a tough person to go through all that you are having to face. But I think you can do it. You are always in my prayers.

Dad - You got yourself in a real mess. It's not going to be easy, and everyone is going to be hurt. However continue to do the best you can and save your marriage.

No matter what anyone says kids are better off with both parents.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by noodle:
 Actually dt3b,

Have you given any consideration to not having anything to do with this OC, even if it should prove to be yours?

Perhaps a finacial settlement and no contact [it's best if you never even see the child..so as not to emotionally attach]

I really think that is the best way to insure NC and the best way to demonstrate your devotion to your wife.
Noodle <hr /></blockquote>I don't think that I could DISAGREE more with this post, but I am gonna keep try and be civil here on this one (not one of my strong suits <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

This one takes the cake for me let me tell you. Yeah, lets show devotion to the wife (WHO HAS ALREADY STATED ON NATIONAL TV THAT SHE COULD LOVE THIS CHILD LIKE HER OWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!) by never seeing or being involved in this child's life. WHAT ABOUT THE POJA every ** MB zealot talks about all the time. This is terrible advice. I thought that this was supposed to be a decision made TOGETHER...........Dad23b has SAID that he wants to be involved in this child's life. Look at his reaction on TV, HE WANTS DESPERATELY FOR THIS CHILD TO BE HIS. Does punishing him by FORCING him to NC the child "even out the score". Is this the price he has to pay for his marriage? DOes paying a check and "forgetting" this child exists show devotion. DAD23b will NEVER stop seeing this woman if he does not want to. Forcing NC on the child (if this is not what he wants) will never be the solution to his infidelity. Is this what POJA is about? Please enlighten me on this. This is the exact *****reason why this site drives me mad at times. The concepts are great when they fit into WHAT YOU THINK IS RIGHT !!! wHY BOTHER........UGGHH ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[ November 11, 2004, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

YOu got that right, we won't be turning any referalls down. PLese correct me, are you a family doc or ED doc? , just curious. LOL, and as far as my trauma team coming in with me, yeah kind of.... being as I am a trauma surgeon. No biggie though, please call with a consult...my future kids colleges depend on it. If this situation weren't so terribly pathetic I would be laughing my***off at you, but sadly that is not the right thing to do here.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Lemonman
What a pompous ***! His ER "conquests" will look good on his headstone, sure won't be "loving and devoted husband and father."

[ November 11, 2004, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />No matter what anyone says kids are better off with both parents <hr /></blockquote>Believer,
I'm not saying this isn't the case with M23B/D23B, but that statement couldn't be further from the truth.

Kids are better off in a loving, safe, and nurturing environment, PERIOD...be that with one parent, 2 parents, a stranger for that matter.

My 1st H turned into a raging lunatic from his gambling addiction and beat me bloody...how were my kids better off ?

I pulled them out of that situation...because I didn't want my son to grow up thinking it was okay to disrespect and beat on his wife...and I didn't want my daughter growing up thinking that's what marriage should be.

Raised them alone for the next 10 years.... my son...treats his fiance with the utmost respect..and my daughter doesn't take gruff from anyone.

THAT'S good parenting.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fingers33:
 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Lemonman
What a pompous ***! His ER "conquests" will look good on his headstone, sure won't be "loving and devoted husband and father." <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, but the reality is, IF he is an ER doc, it won't matter what his character is. The pts come to the hospital NOT him, so this won't affect him monetarily. He is a smug, arrogant guy (I have been called the same many a times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) and the comment he made about zero lawsuits in 13 years is kind of laughable, but hey, this was his moment to look "tough" on the message board....we should let him have it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ November 11, 2004, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />No matter what anyone says kids are better off with both parents <hr /></blockquote>Believer,
I'm not saying this isn't the case with M23B/D23B, but that statement couldn't be further from the truth.

Kids are better off in a loving, safe, and nurturing environment, PERIOD...be that with one parent, 2 parents, a stranger for that matter.

My 1st H turned into a raging lunatic from his gambling addiction and beat me bloody...how were my kids better off ?

I pulled them out of that situation...because I didn't want my son to grow up thinking it was okay to disrespect and beat on his wife...and I didn't want my daughter growing up thinking that's what marriage should be.

Raised them alone for the next 10 years.... my son...treats his fiance with the utmost respect..and my daughter doesn't take gruff from anyone.

THAT'S good parenting. <hr /></blockquote>YOu took the words right out of my mouth (not an easy thing to do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Very nicely said and the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

Hey People!! Yeah, You guys with the 2x4s. Don't you recognize total and absolute defensiveness when you see it?

Ease up! The guy has probably been through social h*ll today and we're not letting him off the hook, but enough with the slamming nasty comments. Kapesh?

Dad - I know I ain't seen nothing yet. And you're trying to salvage some semblance of self-respect/pride out of this day when you've been reduced to hamburger.

I do know this. You're in my prayers, as is Mom. Is packing up and leaving this whole mess behind starting to look more attractive? Fresh start? You and Mom and 3 boys, in a new practice, somewhere far far away from a nurse who plotted and stalked you by feeding your ego from the get-go?

It's hard to be humbled like this. It will take a strength of character you don't know you have yet to find peace; but I believe it's within you and I believe that Mom craves that same peace.

Prayers for blessings your way.

Kayla

I just was on the Dr. Phil website...and it says that the OW speaks up...is this true ?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fingers33:
 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Lemonman
What a pompous ***! His ER "conquests" will look good on his headstone, sure won't be "loving and devoted husband and father." <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, but the reality is, IF he is an ER doc, it won't matter what his character is. The pts come to the hospital NOT him, so this won't affect him monetarily. He is a smug, arrogant guy (I have been called the same many a times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) and the comment he made about zero lawsuits in 13 years is kind of laughable, but hey, this was his moment to look "tough" on the message board....we should let him have it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Good, all the more money for child support and alimony when Mom finally decides to kick his ***to the curb.

[ November 11, 2004, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

Everyone here means well but ...

unless you have experienced the OC situation, you cannot know how these two people really feel.

I'd also like to offer that there will be very strong opinions on contact -vs no contact of an OC (perhaps go read on the P/OC board).

Understandably, this is a highly emotionally charged subject. Every situation is unique just as the married couple that will make that decision.

Having experienced this sitch, I can tell you that THE SINGLE most important thing is that both parties are radically honest about what they want and what they can handle.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaylaAndy:

I do know this. You're in my prayers, as is Mom. Is packing up and leaving this whole mess behind starting to look more attractive? Fresh start? You and Mom and 3 boys, in a new practice, somewhere far far away from a nurse who plotted and stalked you by feeding your ego from the get-go?

Kayla <hr /></blockquote>Do you think that packing up and moving away from the "evil" nurse is going to solve these deep seeded problems in their marriage? HELLO !!!!!!!!!!!!!! This has NOTHING to do with an OW plotting against him and feeding his ego. DAd23B is a man of free will. He is a doctor who has "saved many lives" and "caught many a rare diseases to help his fellow man", he MADE THE DECISION TO LEAVE HIS CHILDREN AND WIFE NOT ONE, NOT TWO, NOT THREE, BUT 4 TIMES. The OW has no "loyalty" to MOm or anyone. LEAVE HER OUT OF IT, this is about dad2B AND HIS CHOICES. DO people see how ludicrous this is to blame the OW at all in any of this. She may be a morally, reprehesible ****, BUT THIS IS ALL D23B doing. He is not being abducted by some "aliens" and he does not have "cancer". HIs actions define his character, and they are speaking louder than words now. Yeah, i agree he has taken a royal beating today and I am not sorry for him. If he feels 1/10 of the pain he has caused maybe this will wise him up. DO you think there are not other nurses to "feed his ego" when he packs up and gets a fresh start somewhere new? Running from the problems will not solve anything. Their will always be a "nurse" somwhere for the taking. ALWAYS !!!!!!!

[ November 11, 2004, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

I agree with Kayla...lighten up people.

Mom23B...earlier in the day you "sounded" like you were at peace..finally got some madness behind you and sitting with your dear dad. You seemed calm and o.k. That was good to "hear". You are such a strong woman!

To everyone else...when you are so rude to dad you are attacking the man that M23B loves. And that may hurt her. This is not the right way to support her.

And Lemonman...back off! Your posts to dad are just nasty and uncalled for. Not gonna accomplish a thing with what you are doing.

JMHO

[ November 11, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: marriedandlonely ]

D23, you might want to check your punctuation before hitting "Add Reply" -- just in case, you know. Gotta maintain that intellectual superiority. . .

Seriously, you make me very sad. Very sad indeed.

The fact that Dad is an MD shows that intelligence has nothing to do with being dumb. WS are high school dropouts, MDs and PHD's. Affairs are all dumb and stupid actions. Dad could be the best physician in the world but that means nothing to his family and the pain they are going thru, does it? Affairs are hugely based on egos and ego-stroking. Dad wasn't feeling his ego being stroked at home, Mom had switched her focus to the kids and being a wife. He didn't know how to get her to focus on him and started feeling unimportant as a man to Mom. OW started giving him attention, telling him he was great, and stroked his ego. That boosted his self-esteem and after that OW had power over him because she understood him, she made him feel good because she was focused only on him. It is a trap that most fall for no matter how smart.

Dad is showing a lot of heart by putting himself on national television. My husband wouldn't even go to a counselor because he didn't want to be told he was a piece of S*** by one man. Dad is willing to sit there and have the whole world say it. How many other WS would do that?

Hang in there, Dad! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mom, stay strong! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Cathy

[ November 11, 2004, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: boobyprize ]

Once again...is it the intent here to drive people off the board? Just wondering...because it seems to be working.

Thanks KaylaAndy.

Just a suggestion Dad...when you receive a post that ignites you...ignore it, there are too many other posters to answer. (BTW, you've never talked about one of my posts... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> )

A bit of advice from early in our recovery. As a BS I was hurt and sad and not confident our M would work. I was seeking reassurance at every turn. I EXPECTED my H to bend over backwards to fulfill every need, answer every question, fulfill every request.

This time doesn't last forever, it enables the FWH to fall back in love, to help the BS heal. To make up for the lost love and attention.

Then the pendulum will swing back, the M returns to a normalcy...

Help her out, do what she asks, love her.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by marriedandlonely:
 I agree with Kayla...lighten up people.

And Lemonman...back off! Your posts to dad are just nasty and uncalled for. Not gonna accomplish a thing with what you are doing.

JMHO <hr /></blockquote>LOL...OK, I guess this is my cue to simmer down for the night. Goodluck DAd with this situation.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 Do you think that packing up and moving away from the "evil" nurse is going to solve these deep seeded problems in their marriage? HELLO !!!!!!!!!!!!!! This has NOTHING to do with an OW plotting against him and feeding his ego. DAd23B is a man of free will. He is a doctor who has "saved many lives" and "caught many a rare diseases to help his fellow man", <hr /></blockquote>and mocking doesn't help him see the double-minded man he portrays/reveals here. deal with your anger, at the person who has earned YOUR anger. Dad hasn't. He's done nothing to you personally so cut the mocking, disrespectful tone. <blockquote>quote:<hr />he MADE THE DECISION TO LEAVE HIS CHILDREN AND WIFE NOT ONE, NOT TWO, NOT THREE, BUT 4 TIMES. The OW has no "loyalty" to MOm or anyone. LEAVE HER OUT OF IT, this is about dad2B AND HIS CHOICES. DO people see how ludicrous this is to blame the OW at all in any of this. She may be a morally, reprehesible Slut, BUT THIS IS ALL D23B doing. He is not being abducted by some "aliens" and he does not have "cancer". HIs actions define his character, and they are speaking louder than words now. Yeah, i agree he has taken a royal beating today and I am not sorry for him. If he feels 1/10 of the pain he has caused maybe this will wise him up. DO you think there are not other nurses to "feed his ego" when he packs up and gets a fresh start somewhere new? Running from the problems will not solve anything. Their will always be a "nurse" somwhere for the taking. ALWAYS !!!!!!! <hr /></blockquote>I don't feel sorry for him either. Do not confuse pity and compassion - have you ever had a child get in over their heads through their own exercise of free will? If you have, then you can understand what I'm talking about.

You will not get your messages through to Dad by further beatings. He will go hard and defensive and you become the enemy.

Since Dad is nothing to you; why unleash anger at him; if you truly desire to help mom, then soften the message and remove the mocking sarcasm.

In medical terms, you need the finest point on your injection instrument as possible, and the gentlest touch, or the muscle will rebel, squeeze any antivirus serum right out and no medical benefit will be achieved if you insist on using your current method to give input! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 Do you think that packing up and moving away from the "evil" nurse is going to solve these deep seeded problems in their marriage? HELLO !!!!!!!!!!!!!! This has NOTHING to do with an OW plotting against him and feeding his ego. DAd23B is a man of free will. He is a doctor who has "saved many lives" and "caught many a rare diseases to help his fellow man", <hr /></blockquote>and mocking doesn't help him see the double-minded man he portrays/reveals here. deal with your anger, at the person who has earned YOUR anger. Dad hasn't. He's done nothing to you personally so cut the mocking, disrespectful tone. <blockquote>quote:<hr />he MADE THE DECISION TO LEAVE HIS CHILDREN AND WIFE NOT ONE, NOT TWO, NOT THREE, BUT 4 TIMES. The OW has no "loyalty" to MOm or anyone. LEAVE HER OUT OF IT, this is about dad2B AND HIS CHOICES. DO people see how ludicrous this is to blame the OW at all in any of this. She may be a morally, reprehesible Slut, BUT THIS IS ALL D23B doing. He is not being abducted by some "aliens" and he does not have "cancer". HIs actions define his character, and they are speaking louder than words now. Yeah, i agree he has taken a royal beating today and I am not sorry for him. If he feels 1/10 of the pain he has caused maybe this will wise him up. DO you think there are not other nurses to "feed his ego" when he packs up and gets a fresh start somewhere new? Running from the problems will not solve anything. Their will always be a "nurse" somwhere for the taking. ALWAYS !!!!!!! <hr /></blockquote>I don't feel sorry for him either. Do not confuse pity and compassion - have you ever had a child get in over their heads through their own exercise of free will? If you have, then you can understand what I'm talking about.

You will not get your messages through to Dad by further beatings. He will go hard and defensive and you become the enemy.

Since Dad is nothing to you; why unleash anger at him; if you truly desire to help mom, then soften the message and remove the mocking sarcasm.

In medical terms, you need the finest point on your injection instrument as possible, and the gentlest touch, or the muscle will rebel, squeeze any antivirus serum right out and no medical benefit will be achieved if you insist on using your current method to give input! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the reminder, I sometimes get to fired up...LOL. I like your last paragraph, it has a nice touch.

I don't think the intent of this thread is to drive anyone anywhere.

This situation took on a whole new twist when it's publicly televised.

Under normal circumstances...I think you see different responses.

These responses all directly reflect feelings associated with this type of thing. Harsh ? Run on over to the Dr. Phil discussion boards...there are people from all walks of life...who've never suffered the pain of infidelity..flinging **** much worse than THIS.

It doesn't help when there's a touch of smug thrown in...and a mocking attitude.

I've refrained from posting anything to harsh, too soft, and I will not defend anyone in this matter. This was going to happen...nothing anyone can do or say...will avoid it...it goes with the territory.

This hit many sore spots with this community...we all have to be ready for the hurt feelings....rough reading...and don't READ or respond to posts that enrage us. As long as it remains within the TOS...it's going to be a free for all.

It will blow over....until next week...and then they'll be another round.

It's better to accept it will happen..and do the best we can with it.

[ November 11, 2004, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
In medical terms, you need the finest point on your injection instrument as possible, and the gentlest touch, or the muscle will rebel, squeeze any antivirus serum right out and no medical benefit will be achieved if you insist on using your current method to give input! <hr /></blockquote>Lemonman, when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Pep

Dang, lemon man:
I thought you said you were a pariah around here.

Guess I must be as well, cause you just keep coming up with things I Agree with.

Yes, MBers principles work, but they must be flexible to work in the real world.

Once a Child is added to the equation.....the rules are a little different.
Especially when that child is NO accident and is in Fact "created" with purpose and intent.

I know this is MBers....but marriages Can and Do End.
However, being a Parent is FOREVER.

By the way, Mom 2 3 is OK with this (as much as one can be).....so let THEM work it out.

This rest is all mine (so your off the hook lemon):
I'm always amazed at the Mothers who are "OK" with a FATHER that is more then willing to Walk away from HIS OWN child. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

With this logic, should DAD to 3 decide to leave MOM 2 3.....then he should forgo seeing his 3 boys and just Move on with his life with his Nurse OW & the New child.

Of course this is illogical and makes no sense.
Well, so too is abandoning your flesh and blood.

That's a huge problem in this country already.....Men who create babies and then don't stick around to raise them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> (teach them, instruct them, nurture them, love them).

However a man creates a child, it is HIS responsibility (for Life) and that means waaaay more than just a "check".

Being a Father has no more to do with having an x OW, then it does with having an Ex W.
You can be a Dad to YOUR kid with either.

******************
Had to add this, from your last post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From lemon Man:
LEAVE HER OUT OF IT, this is about dad2B AND HIS CHOICES. DO people see how ludicrous this is to blame the OW at all in any of this. <hr /></blockquote>Sorry but you are on a roll here lemon.
This is true in all cases.
Its NOT the "evil" OP that is the BS problem....it is their own WS.
Wish more here could see/own that reality.

Temptation is Always around us....some give in....some don't. Teach them to deal with it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
In medical terms, you need the finest point on your injection instrument as possible, and the gentlest touch, or the muscle will rebel, squeeze any antivirus serum right out and no medical benefit will be achieved if you insist on using your current method to give input! <hr /></blockquote>Lemonman, when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Pep <hr /></blockquote>Chuckle........ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I guess this is why I am a trauma surgeon and not a plastic surgeon. It's a learning process, I will get better....perhaps when the meds Cymanaca presrcibes me kick in I will have a more "compassionate" tone with regards to this situation/thread. I guess untill then I will try and use restraint... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I said "try".

ok. I also mocked, and I apologize, but please allow me to take exception to one phrase in your post, Kayla, which is: "Dad is nothing to you."

I disagree.

Dad's (commendable) willingness to be honest does not change the fact that he's openly displaying the very kind of thinking that has been so hurtful to many on this board. He knew it wouldn't be pretty, and it's not.

D23B, I apologize, not that I think anything I post would have any impact on you. Still, it makes me look bad. I'm sorry; you just have to know that your words are crushing to BS's. I wish the best to you and your family. PM

Ok lemonman...careful how you talk about the nurses, if it weren't for us telling you how to do your job you'd be lost!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (being a nurse myself I love to give the docs a rough time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

Anyway, it's been awhile since I've been around here and WOW look what has happened!! M23B's, so sorry to hear about your Dad. It is readily apparent you need love and support now more than ever. You are in my thoughts.

D23B's, many, many months ago I wrote a few posts to you (the content of which you disregarded). Sadly, at this point, you are looking all around you for enemies and yes, you are defensive. Can't say I blame you. Let me say this, every individual is responsible for the choices they make. With choice comes consequence (good and bad). You are feeling the consequences now. You now have the opportunity to chose a new path. No one will do it for you. You can remain ambivalent and passive in your marriage OR you can decide to be passionate and active in saving your M. M23B's can't do this on her own. She no longer has the emotional resources.

The choice on how to act next is yours...and so are the consequences!

[ November 11, 2004, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: mgm ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mgm:
 Ok lemonman...careful how you talk about the nurses, if it weren't for us telling you how to do your job you'd be lost!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (being a nurse myself I love to give the docs a rough time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

<hr /></blockquote>YOu don't think that I don't know this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . It is many a nurse who have saved my patients when one of my residents tries to replete potassium and orders a 1000meq bolus, or when I say "give em a little salt" and they literally tey and put salt into the f-ing IV bag. LOL. I should have paid my medical school tuition to the ICU nurses b/c they are the one's who taught me real medicine. Any good doctor knows it is the nurses who run the show and do the real "treating". You want to know what is pathetic? I have done a triple A repair skin to skin in 84 minutes, but have needed to call a nurse to show me how to turn the dopamine drip down to 5 mics becasue I am cluelss on how to work those pumps. Trust me, I know that you speak the truth.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 Thanks for the reminder, I sometimes get to fired up...LOL. I like your last paragraph, it has a nice touch. <hr /></blockquote>lol - touch indeed. Comes from too many encounters with needles and doing my own immunotherapy injections; or staring down the nail-sized needles the Red Cross uses to take my blood donations.

Of course, I have my own version of Dad to deal with, who has caused his share of flame wars over on the emotional needs board - but it's been a while. I know what it's like to live with a man who is vocationally superior! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And I know I don't get anywhere by telling him how wrong he is on anything. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> even when he is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I've learned a bit about rebellious muscles. (husband is a rehab/sports massage therapist.

[ November 11, 2004, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]

I felt like Dr Phil glamourized the OW and Dads Affair "The Doctor & the Nurse"

Dad's OW is an LVN at a Nursing Home. She was a trade school grad. Not to offend anyone here.
But those of us that went to Nursing school and achieved a degree then sat for our RN boards this upset me. She was NOT an ER RN. In my state LVN's are very restricted I dont think they can even give out meds so you dont see them anywhere near an ER. In my 17 years as a RN I have never worked with an LVN (not allowed in my area of practice).
For the record Dad is an ER doctor but he does own and operate his own Family practice.
Here where I live alot of the ER doctors do this it seems to have more money in owning clinics than working strickly for a hospital ER.

It also bugged me that Dr Phil would also ask Mom a question then Answer it.
Mom did he pick up on that stage fright??

Other than that I thought it was great. I thought they both looked wonderful
And I was happy how honest both were being.

The show was taped several weeks ago just after Dad ended contact for the last time. Next weeks show was taped this last tuesday. So at the time of the taping Dad was in the beginning of "withdrawl" and he was confused. I hope he see's things more clearly now.

Dad has gotten alot of 2x4's tonight as he expected he would. As far as being disappointed in the OC being his? I think he would be. Because that would be just one more failed judgement call on his part. And he has made a few. Does Dad want to be a "daddy" again? Highly doubt it, I think he would rather go "racing" than having to sit around the house changing diapers.

I am not giving Dad a 2x4 I have always told him what I thought, in fact I probably scare him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As far as his ego, well I married a man with a very large ego in alot of aspects of his life.
I think I have help calm that down a bit (my H was out of control) Some have better tact than others, some just do the delivery better. Dad knows what he has done is wrong
Now it's time for him to STEP UP TO THE PLATE and do the RIGHT thing.

And Dad if your confused about that, take a look around you. See those adorable angels of yours?
GOOD, No question what the right thing is.
Remember YOU are gonna have to be the strong one for them when their "Grandpa" passes. Their Mom will be too overcome with grief to truly be there for them. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

SOM

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I STILL haven't read all the posts! Thanks to all who think I looked good and not like a doormat. I certainly dont feel like a doormat. I think I am going to have to get thru the first 6 pages i printed first then print the rest out tomorrow.

like I said, all I have to do is start a thread and watch the drama! Thanks for the support and yes, drama today..I really need all of it right now. I think they are ALLl good posts.

I must go ahead and defend dad. He did tell me he wasn't going to go racing, but I still posted the conversatin cuz AT THE TIME, that is what was my dileman and what was bothering me. I wont go on...He has agreed to come be with me. I NEED him and yes, although i did not come out and say it, I NEED him here with me. I need to hold him. I need ot be strong for my mom and dad right now, and I need Ed to come hold me up.

Ed is NOT in contact with OW...He is working on the marriage, not like I would like, but who can with all the emotions running wild right now. I do nbelieve we can make this.

I really cannot wait til you all see next weeks show. It is awesome from what i remember! REALLY is. You wont see poor little old Kandi up there, You will see the woman you know on these boards! goodnight all!

HIGH SOM!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> LVN's are very restricted I dont think they can even give out meds so you dont see them anywhere near an ER. <hr /></blockquote>except to see her BF <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> sorry,couldn't resist! Love ya!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StressedOutMom:
 I felt like Dr Phil glamourized the OW and Dads Affair "The Doctor & the Nurse"

Dad's OW is an LVN at a Nursing Home. She was a trade school grad. Not to offend anyone here.
But those of us that went to Nursing school and achieved a degree then sat for our RN boards this upset me. She was NOT an ER RN. In my state LVN's are very restricted I dont think they can even give out meds so you dont see them anywhere near an ER. In my 17 years as a RN I have never worked with an LVN (not allowed in my area of practice).

SOM <hr /></blockquote>SOM:

Interesting, thank you for sharing this information. This definitely changes the situation and will helps us all to see the MAJORITIVE role the Nurse, I am aorry, I mean LPN (is she even this qualified? ) played in this destruction of the marriage. It is great that they have you to support them through this tough time, they sure are lucky to have you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SOM,

Thanks for the clarification. I assumed (wrongly so) by all the posts and such that she was an RN.

Soooooo, if D23B's places such high value in intellect (and education??), as he stated on the Dr. Phil show why would he get involved with someone like the OW???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> No need to answer...it was rhetorical.

M23B's,

Need to add that I'm so proud of you and Dad for the courage the two of you displayed by going on the Dr. Phil show! Both of you should hold your heads high!! Not many ppl out there could do what the two of you did on national television!!

I never loved my wife and I think my wife is not my intellectual equal = I need to re-write history and find reasons to justify my actions.

LM..

Without any emotional charge at all.. I fail to see the difference between never having contact with OW/OC while meeting his financial responsibilites as differing very much from a teenager giving a child that they are not prepared to raise up for adoption.

The issue is not M23Bs ability to love the child..it is about the likelyhood for permanent NC while there is a child involved.

D23B isn't really prepared to be anyone's father at this time..adding someone new to this excruciating parody is a poor choice in my opinion.

I do not however agree that both parents are always the best choice in every case..I concede that many feel otherwise.

If M23B were to gain custody of OC and OW to step out of the pic..that could provide 2 parents for the child..but based on OWs actions to date..I do not believe that she is capable of this level of selflessness.

I think that the best chance of intact survival for this family is for the doors to close definitively..I really believe that it is better for OW and her child to move on rather than continue this escapade. If the whirlwind can not be controlled today..on what bases do we place our faith that it ever can be?

Shall we leave just a little heroin around all of the time and hope that D23B will just never cave to temptation?

Foolishness. Sometimes love needs to be ruthless. I think that D23B has stretched himself out over two potential families and he isn't sufficient for one. His best opportunity for success is to choose one over the other and place his investment there.

It has nothing to do with payment..it has to do with sacrifice. If he will not sacrifice his wants in favor of providing a better future for both the OC and his existing children I would be very reluctant to consider reconciling.

[actually, I wouldn't consider it at all in this case..but it isn't up to me is it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

Based on what I have observed re: human nature and D23bs nature specifically..while there is yet an opportunity he will remain with one foot in each household.

Entering feelings into the mix is what greys it up..not the facts as I see them. Shall we make our decisions based on feelings..or is that how we got here in the first place?

Noodle

Lemonhead,

***edit*** You are right she could be the gardner and it would not make a difference as far as the distruction that has occurred.

I said it bothered me that the show took the "Doctor and Nurse" spin. And yes if you knew her background as I do (The OW) You might understand. It is just not my info to share.
That is where my statement came from.

Lemon I just dont think that it is constructive to display the battle of the egos between you and Dad. And I find it funny you called me on
my LVN comparison to a degreed RN when you have been all about your "Trauma" surgeon self vs Dad ER/family practice. What's the difference a fellowship? Kinda like a 6 month program VS a 4 year degree?

I have to go My surgeon is FINALLY out of the OR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
9:15 he's early, well that was short lived, the phone is ringing and its Memorial (hate caller ID)
Night
SOM

[ November 11, 2004, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

I watched the show a few hours ago...

The most striking moment, and it could be a kind of conclusion, is Dr. Phil's statement:
'People who are bored are people who are - boring.'

PS: What could you say of someone who chose a woman to be mother of his own children being 'intellectual incompatible'?
(Not applicable to this case though, for here it is just a typical & poor excuse for a ws.)

PPS: How lucky some guys are... after all of this not being... Edit***... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ November 11, 2004, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

So..is an LVN sort of a glorified nurses aid?

Like..a half step above an orderly?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by noodle:
 LM..

Without any emotional charge at all.. I fail to see the difference between never having contact with OW/OC while meeting his financial responsibilites as differing very much from a teenager giving a child that they are not prepared to raise up for adoption.

The issue is not M23Bs ability to love the child..it is about the likelyhood for permanent NC while there is a child involved.

D23B isn't really prepared to be anyone's father at this time..adding someone new to this excruciating parody is a poor choice in my opinion.

I do not however agree that both parents are always the best choice in every case..I concede that many feel otherwise.

If M23B were to gain custody of OC and OW to step out of the pic..that could provide 2 parents for the child..but based on OWs actions to date..I do not believe that she is capable of this level of selflessness.

I think that the best chance of intact survival for this family is for the doors to close definitively..I really believe that it is better for OW and her child to move on rather than continue this escapade. If the whirlwind can not be controlled today..on what bases do we place our faith that it ever can be?

Shall we leave just a little heroin around all of the time and hope that D23B will just never cave to temptation?

Foolishness. Sometimes love needs to be ruthless. I think that D23B has stretched himself out over two potential families and he isn't sufficient for one. His best opportunity for success is to choose one over the other and place his investment there.

It has nothing to do with payment..it has to do with sacrifice. If he will not sacrifice his wants in favor of providing a better future for both the OC and his existing children I would be very reluctant to consider reconciling.

[actually, I wouldn't consider it at all in this case..but it isn't up to me is it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

Based on what I have observed re: human nature and D23bs nature specifically..while there is yet an opportunity he will remain with one foot in each household.

Entering feelings into the mix is what greys it up..not the facts as I see them. Shall we make our decisions based on feelings..or is that how we got here in the first place?

Noodle <hr /></blockquote>YOu know Noodle...........(says very calmly and soothingly) I can see your point.

If the premise is to save this marriage at all costs (isn't that basically MB credo?) then your solution is probably the best for them. Lifelong NC with his child and a one lump sum payment will be as close to adoption as you can possibly get and then for good measure he should also relinquish any and all rights to the child. The young RN......sorry, I Mean trade school nurses aid will undoubtedly meet anothr physicianan rligible man(sshowing more devotion and earning more love bank unit deposits)

Yea it was short lived, he ran in looked at the kids new pic proofs and ran out to the hospital, again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Noodle, I think it varies from state to state what the responsiblities of an LVN are.
Here they can assist in a Med surg unit (working under an RN) and in Nursing homes again under the supervision of an RN. Here they get a certificate from a trade school or city college.

SOM

"The young RN......sorry, I Mean trade school nurses aid will undoubtedly meet anothr physicianan rligible man(sshowing more devotion and earning more love bank unit deposits)"

Tipped too many Lemonhead?

Also for the record this OW is almost 30 and has a 12 y/o son, that someone else is raising
(was I aloud to say that Mom?)
so she is not a YOUNG Nurses aid <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

LM

Yeah, I hear you..but just look how successfull it is to try and talk people who are yet rejecting the failure and death of their marriage into acknowledging it.

Do I think that my suggestion is the best way to attempt a reconciliation?

Yes, I do.

Do I think that there is a snowballs chance in hell that it will happen.

Nope.

People can not acknowledge what is before them until they are ready. M23B is not ready..yet. She wants to turn over every stone..it's her choice and it might work. It's within the realm of possibility..she is doing everything humanly possible including being wiling to accept the offspring of his affair into her heart and home. I doubt D23b is capable of internalizing the enormity of that. He sort of reeks of entitlement.

By the way..thanks for the soothing tone..I just watched Gothika, and despite plot holes you could drive a truck through the imagery manages to be very disturbing indeed..I jumped/yelped and I'm (wo)man enough to admit it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Noodle

{holy typos batman!}

[ November 11, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]

I try and try to find a little compassion for Dad and every time I think I have a "tiny" little bit for him......HE OPENS his MOUTH!

All I can say really. Im not sure I will watch this on Dr.Phil anymore.....I think Ed likes the public arena and isn't really interested in looking at himself.....much easier to look at mom and blame her!

Mom.....you are a beautiful woman! Don't let dad make you feel anything less!!!

Blessings,
Atruheart

p.s. WHO CARES IF YOU haven't had any lawsuits??? What the heck does that mean????
To me it just means more $$$$ for mom if you continue on your self-distuctive path!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

M23B's,
(If this is a double post, sorry.)

I wanted to tell you that you are my hero. I didn't watch the whole show today as it was way too much of a trigger. My H was flipping channels, I heard it and wanted to watch but neither of us could make it.

I didn't discover H's A until it had burnt itself out. DDay, he ended it and never looked back. I noticed your posts shortly after I found this board. When I noticed you were back on and talking of Dr Phil, I was floored. I was amazed at your strength and courage for sticking this thing out like you have and then you opening your doors for the nation. This is totally incomprehensible to me. What a fighter you are!!!

I love my H a great deal. I can only hope that if I had been put in your shoes that I would have had the courage and the fight that you have. I am afraid that I wouldn't have had the strength. You can definitely say that you have done everything possible to try and save your marriage. One day, when this is over, you will look back and be amazed at yourself.

My prayers are with you and your family through these tough times.
MM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Dad's OW is an LVN at a Nursing Home. She was a trade school grad. Not to offend anyone here.
But those of us that went to Nursing school and achieved a degree then sat for our RN boards this upset me. <hr /></blockquote>This is what upset you? You ARE offending people with these types of statements. Weren't you the one that also said that MANY young women become RNs to land the Doctor !?!

This a true reflection of your lack of diversity and respect for people as human beings period. I don't think slamming the OW for her career choice is helping this marriage.

From what I read...the OW gets to speak up on the next show...so she'll take on her own deal of crap, but you really have to stop flinging all the blame onto her...you'd swear she held hostages during this whole mess. People involved in an A are equally guilty...nobody holds more responsibility than the other. PERIOD.

She's wrong too, and any woman that gets involved with a MM is wrong, but she's been involved in the back and forth, back and forth as well. I'm sure she got a heck of a lot of mixed messages...and regardless of all that.... why do you have the right to judge her career and her parenting ?

Don't tell me you KNOW..because you DON'T KNOW...you know what people TELL you...you're not living her life, you're not her friend or her neighbor, so you DON'T know.

I hate the fact that you invoked sympathy for the OW out of ME....a BS who is healing from an emotional tragedy of infidelity under my own roof...what difference does it make what the hell I do for a living, how I raised my kids, or my choice of careers.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From Stressed out Mom:
I said it bothered me that the show took the "Doctor and Nurse" spin. And yes if you knew her background as I do (The OW) You might understand. It is just not my info to share.
<hr /></blockquote>Well, then Why Did YOU bring it up?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Its not right to bring things into the discussion, and then claim "Oh, but I can't talk about it".

What's up with that?

If it is "privledged" info. then please keep it as such.

bij,

I'm not sure why that was such a trigger post for you. I do think it's relevent that the OW is LVN and not an RN because of the way that Dad implied that Mom was not his intellectual equal. Did that mean the OW is? If the OW had a more extensive background in medicine, the kind needed to earn an advanced degree, then it wouldn't be nearly as ludicrous that mom can't compete with the OW in that arena.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Dad's OW is an LVN at a Nursing Home. She was a trade school grad. Not to offend anyone here.
But those of us that went to Nursing school and achieved a degree then sat for our RN boards this upset me. <hr /></blockquote>This is what upset you? You ARE offending people with these types of statements. Weren't you the one that also said that MANY young women become RNs to land the Doctor !?!

This a true reflection of your lack of diversity and respect for people as human beings period. I don't think slamming the OW for her career choice is helping this marriage.

From what I read...the OW gets to speak up on the next show...so she'll take on her own deal of crap, but you really have to stop flinging all the blame onto her...you'd swear she held hostages during this whole mess. People involved in an A are equally guilty...nobody holds more responsibility than the other. PERIOD.

She's wrong too, and any woman that gets involved with a MM is wrong, but she's been involved in the back and forth, back and forth as well. I'm sure she got a heck of a lot of mixed messages...and regardless of all that.... why do you have the right to judge her career and her parenting ?

Don't tell me you KNOW..because you DON'T KNOW...you know what people TELL you...you're not living her life, you're not her friend or her neighbor, so you DON'T know.

I hate the fact that you invoked sympathy for the OW out of ME....a BS who is healing from an emotional tragedy of infidelity under my own roof...what difference does it make what the hell I do for a living, how I raised my kids, or my choice of careers.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>I could not agree more with the statement. I thought maybe I was the only one who noticed this.

Well, I guess I'm seeing this a little different. I don't look at this LVN/RN as an attempt to make the OW look bad...I think it has been one of the excuses that dad used to justify the A. What the OW chooses to do professionally is only important within that framework. On the one hand...here's dad saying that mom is not intellectually compatible....implying that perhaps she hasn't had enough education. On the other...he's sought out a woman who hasn't had that much education either really because LVNs don't need that much training. My guess is this has NOTHING to do with intellect or education or stimulating conversation (which I think mom is quite capable of...medical training or not)... and everything to do with lust.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Dad's OW is an LVN at a Nursing Home. She was a trade school grad. Not to offend anyone here.
But those of us that went to Nursing school and achieved a degree then sat for our RN boards this upset me. <hr /></blockquote>me too... ironically my WS's Ow is a LPN in a nursing home and they go around telling everyone she is a nurse...how did she get her LPN by being on welfare and the gov'nt paying to get her off welfare... wonder if there is a reason why Dad is not being truthful about this but then again when has he ever been truthful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Good Morning Star,
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think it has been one of the excuses that dad used to justify the A <hr /></blockquote>I took it more as some of his reasons he wasn't "happy" in the M.

I can't remember who posted it, but someone else had already stated that education, career, social standing, have no role in people involved with an A. It's not a reflection of what they do, how smart they are or aren't, and I HATE stereotypes of ANY kind...it IS a trigger for me...not even A related...I can't stand stereotyping. It's just a pet peeve of mine...and the welfare statement ? Good God...how did that even come into play ?

So now people who are LVN/CNA/LPN are all welfare rehabs ?

Do you see why I don't like stereotyping ? I don't think anyone has a right to judge anyone else for these types of events, and/or choices... (careers/education)...not A.

It's unnecessary. I don't think Dr. Phil glamorized anything. I have a lot of respect for both Mom AND Dad for not attacking the OW publicly. I think they are each taking their own responsibility..and that's GREAT.

But someone else coming in, and throwing around judgements against someone's career choice..and the derogatory statements..just triggered me..and my HATE of judging people by their career choice/education/parenting.

I apologize if I came off in a different light, I didn' imply any of that directly to Mom and Dad...just in GENERAL..I don't like it, don't agree with it.

No one, has the right to "look down" on anyone else.

That's all.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thank you starfish that was the exactly what I was trying to get across.

BIJ,
I just dont understand your need to lam blast people. You have been very caring and have given wonderful insight on this thread. I guess if you need to blast someone I am glad it was me. Mom is in a bad way these days.

LM
I said I was upset with the SPIN they placed on the show, NOT in Mom's and Dad's situation.
Did you not feel strange that they kept referring to "The Doctor & The Nurse" like they belonged? then bringing up Dads feeling that he and Mom are not intelligential (sp)compatiable. They did NOT bring up the fact Dad has said the same thing about the OW and the fact he says the other woman has problems putting sentences together and yes she is english speaking.
Did you notice there was NO MENTION that Mom's dad is DYING ? is that not important?
And YES the Dr Phil people knew the above.
They did do a good job of setting up for another show without mentioning the actual show.

On the other hand, if Dr Phil was trying to keep the focus on Mom & Dad only then I can see not mentioning the above. It's the "Hollywood" spin that kinda got me.

Alot of dynamics have occured since that first taping. I dont think you will be "seeing" the other woman.

TR
I know Mom has said alot of stuff I have inferred too here regarding the Other woman and the situation. Because we talk daily and I am a confidant I sometimes cant remember what was written here or said to me. Mom pretty much holds nothing in. I just dont want to cross a boundry. Mom most of the time directs me here to read posts. I have told her time and time again I cant. For any other reason responses like
above.

By the way I am not Anti OW. I socialize with wives who were once the other woman (before they married their husbands). Now please note I did not know them when they were the other woman. Just heard through the rumor mill thats how they started out.
I am not PRO other woman either. Mom's other woman has been incrediably nasty. I know Dad's part here, but OW here has been exceptionally mean.
SOM

I think that Dr. Phil did a good job of not painting Dad as a complete carp. Last night, I couldn't sleep because I was thinking: Did Dad show ANY, and I mean ANY, sense of compassion or care towards Mom for the h...ll he has put her throught? No. Not that I saw, and I didn't see the entire show because that's when my kids get home.

There they are and it seems almost non-chalant that Dad admits to having sex with OW two weeks before and he's been in the home six weeks. As I watched that, all I could think was Dad was the booby prize in this situation.

Cherished

Hi bij,

Yeah, I really hate stereotyping too, so I understand why this upsets you. I don't think less of this OW because she is an LVN! It's an honorable profession. I think less of her because she pursued a married man and purposely got pregnant. But I also really hate the implication that somehow because she is in the medical profession that she is smarter than mom...ugh. Her education is just not extensive enough to imply that dad is being intellectually stimulated by her advanced schooling. I was so darn insulted for mom by that comment...like he had to go out looking for more intellectual compatibility...if that were true...why not pick a PHD!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Lifelong NC with his child and a one lump sum payment will be as close to adoption as you can possibly get and then for good measure he should also relinquish any and all rights to the child.<hr /></blockquote>What about the child and how she will feel when she gets older to learn that her father(if that turns out to be the fact) abandoned her? The idea of paying a lump sum and giving up parental rights to the child sounds all neat and tidy. It would help the marriage because of NC, and Dad could focus on Mom, but this child is going to be a person. She is going to wonder why someone didn't want her or love her enough to stay in her life.

I am an adopted child given away by a single Mother who kept her first child. My adopted family was fine but I always felt a sense of abandonment because of the adoption. Not everyone feels this, my brother didn't, but I did. So, I am just saying don't forget about the child and how this would effect her.

Cathy

BIJ said:
"But someone else coming in, and throwing around judgements against someone's career choice..and the derogatory statements..just triggered me..and my HATE of judging people by their career choice/education/parenting. "

BIJ
I guess I could say the same to you. You do not know me. My best friend (of 15 years) is a HS drop out. She was in a gang before she got pregnant and had her first without a husband. To say we came from different backgrounds is an understatement. Our children were in an activity together when we met and became friends.
To say I "judge" people based on career choice/education or parenting is a HUGE judgement on your part, considering some of the organizations and work I have been involved with.

I am not ignorant to the fact that alot of socioeconomic situations dictate education and choices for careers. People are people I am not judgemental of that. I just have an issue with this particular other woman, OK ?

But if it made you feel better to say that then again I am glad I was your target of the day.

I wish I knew your situation, maybe I am some sort of trigger for you. If I knew maybe I could just ignore your outbursts.
SOM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think less of her because she pursued a married man and purposely got pregnant <hr /></blockquote>Exactly, her career/parenting/education/social status..have NOTHING what so ever to do with any of it. It's just mud flinging..and has no PLACE.

And THAT is what irritated me.

If I've "lam blasted" anyone in my 8 months here, I apologize for that, but I hardly think that will be a long line of folks...if any.

I would think that when the OC grows up she would be told the circumstances of her conception and that whatever choice was made was intended for everyone's best interest. Unfortunately, sometimes that's life. She wasn't conceived within a marriage and that is a fact. Ow knew there could be consequences involved since it seems like she has done this before. I guess I don't know if she was married when she conceived her 12 yr. old.

Guys -- come one. Dad is NOT undecided. He plainly stated on the Dr. Phil show that what he wants is both his wife AND his girlfriend. His every action backs this up. And since both women are tolerating this arrangement, that's exactly what he's got.

Sitting around and waiting for "Dad" to "decide" would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. He has ALREADY decided. He wants two women and that's what he's got -- and he'll put up with anything to keep this arrangement.

Expecting Dad to "decide" between his wife and his girlfriend is like expecting a spoiled child to "decide" between a PlayStation and an Xbox. Each one plays different games. He wants both. And unless and until somebody makes the decision for him, he will insist on keeping both.

Mom -- please, please, take your power back. As Dr. Phil said, "Why is this choice HIS to make???" Nothing will change here until a rational adult makes the decision for the very spoiled, arrogant child masquerading as your husband.

Mulan

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You mean she might have been lying to YOU Dad 2 3??"

Oh No, not to you! (**GASP**) Imagine that!
<hr /></blockquote>Hence my post about it getting a helluvalot worse......dwh NEVER conceived the notion that sterling OW would ever cheat on HIM.......

GUESS WHAT????? THAT was a HUGE slap in the face....and guess what, also, Dad????? Your ow and ours.....the similarities between the two are SO amazing it's almost scary...they could be the same person.

She (OW) is not unique.
She is not in an unique position.
YOUR relationship with her, while it might've been exciting at the time, has been written in the annals of history so many times that the great Writer dips his quill in the ink then YAWNS and writes in tiny print at the very bottom of a page as an afterthought.

When He writes of Kandi though, His eyes twinkle and his smile lights the universe because HE is proud of her convictions and devotion.

Where is OWs devotion to the child she has now - you know, the one that lives with his grandmother????? What happens when OWs plan doesn't turn out the way she envisioned it - where will the baby live? How will she live....wanna know a secret? I already know. The baby will be at grandma's most of the time because mom won't have "time" - she'll be out looking for another man to fill the void of the black hole in her heart (the humanity sucking vacuum that it is).

Ask me how I know this - g'head - ask. Because your OW and ours are pages from the same horror novel (gasp! not YOUR OW....yep....every single thing I've learned about your OW, I could finish the sentence, because she IS THE SAME).

When and if that baby is yours, and OW has moved on, remind me of all the remedies for removing lice from a squirming and crying child's hair (also remind me to let you in on that the baby might be crying so...but so are you because YOU CHOSE THIS FOR HER). Remind me to let you in on the secrects of getting terminally grey and filthy dirty shirts and clothes back to a decent shade of white. Remind me to tell you that a booger encrusted nose, cheeks and upper lip are not NORMAL when you go pick up the baby for visitation.

G'head. DWH and I are EXPERTS at it now.

BTW: I've got reams of good advice on documentation for the above when/if you do finally decide your child deserves better. Because you'll have to prove yourself better....and in the eyes of the law down here - OW and you are BOTH liars and horrors.

Oh - one more thing. I know a reason you're waffling....you're worried that OW might just be the person I just described (and she is). You're wondering that if you go there, you'll be able to provide better for the baby by your mere prescence. I know this b/c its the #1 reason my dwh waffled. He knew the squallor that OW lived in. He knew her past behaviors. He thought if he was there, she'd TA-DA (waving the Fairy Godmother wand and sparkly things floating about like in Cinderella) be the mother she should be. Doesn't work that way. I let him go....and HE got to live in squallor....and OW STILL slept till she wanted once she got older kids off to school, then wh was stuck with the little ones (one of which wasn't his) while OW slumbered like Sleeping Beauty. HMMMMM......think Voila! Your OW is different? (snort) I don't.

She's not special. She's less than mundane. She's less than common.

And it saddens me to the nth degree that there are people like her (and you) in the world that KNOW their failings and still choose to wallow in the muck.

You, sir, need a good shower and a to be able to look yourself in the eyes in the mirror....I'd hazard a guess you've not done that in a very long time. (sigh) So much potential wasted.

- Kimmy

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do think it's relevent that the OW is LVN and not an RN because of the way that Dad implied that Mom was not his intellectual equal. Did that mean the OW is? If the OW had a more extensive background in medicine, the kind needed to earn an advanced degree, then it wouldn't be nearly as ludicrous that mom can't compete with the OW in that arena.
<hr /></blockquote>I think everyone is being a bit snobby here. Who's to say that someone with a LVN would be intellectually incapable of becoming an RN or a MD? Not everyone capable gets advanced degrees, it doesn't mean they are stupid. Maybe they lack the finances, the time or even the desire to go to school. Mom is not intellectually inferior either. I am sure she is capable of anything she would like to do and that includes being a wife and mother. Perhaps Dad should have said she didn't share the interest in Medicine and the things he is interested in. That seems more reasonable.

By the way, I read something one time that said that average physician's IQ is just above average. That kind of puts things into perspective doesn't it? Getting a degree is about hard work, desire, opportunity and determination. Good doctors are good because they work hard and care about their patients.

I agree with Mulan.

What is going to happen with this Dr. Phil family is status quo until and unless MT3B makes a decision.

My therapist once said that people take responsibility for making changes when it is a problem for them. Well, MT3B, is it really a problem for DT3B how this is playing out? Not really.

And, Mulan, have you made any decisions about not putting up with your H?

Cherished

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Who's to say that someone with a LVN would be intellectually incapable of becoming an RN or a MD? Not everyone capable gets advanced degrees, it doesn't mean they are stupid. <hr /></blockquote>No one is saying the OW is stupid or incapable of achieving more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> The only person to make an implication about stupidity....was dad...on national tv. He implied that mom was not his intellectual equal. You're right....if he had said that the medical background gave them a common interest...that is entirely possible. However, that's not what he said. Being an LVN does NOT in anyway limit or define the OWs intellectual capacity. However, being a stay at home mother doesn't either.

[ November 12, 2004, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

Guys...

I am really becoming concerned that this is just becoming a bash dadto thread....

that it is becoming the exact thing that I defended this board as not being.....

first of all....regardless of anything...both dadto and momto are in great crisis and pain...multiplied by her dads sickness...

the ability for either to focus right now or even 'hear' us is not in theirs or ours favor....

dadto is really lost right now....
in his pain
in his strong desire to have no one get hurt...

and if we can't reach out in some compassion then that reflects right back on to us....

I think people should just pray for them...
that is the best thing that anyone can do...

the minutia this is getting dragged in to...serves no one....

God's Grace to momto, dadto, and the family..
God's peace to her father....
Blessed are those who are poor in spirit....

ARK

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am really becoming concerned that this is just becoming a bash dadto thread....
<hr /></blockquote>Ark is correct.

I needed to temper my temper ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).....Dad, you are re-living MY history. Seriously. I can't sit and allow you to relive it and make the same mistakes and cause the same pain in your family that my family has gone through, and keep my mouth shut. THAT is why I posted to you.

Please keep that in mind. Not only there but for the grace of God go I....for me it's, "There for the grace of God WENT I...and my dwh." Consider that when you read my posts.

What you are going through, while definetly causing an uproar, has been gone through and survived by others. You and Mom are the ones to make the decision on HOW you will survive.

- Kimmy

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Being an LVN does NOT in anyway limit or define the OWs intellectual capacity. However, being a stay at home mother doesn't either.
<hr /></blockquote>I agree and I said that:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Mom is not intellectually inferior either. I am sure she is capable of anything she would like to do and that includes being a wife and mother. <hr /></blockquote>To me the only one that is coming off as inferior by being self-centered is Dad. But I think that he can turn that around and change that. If he chooses not to, than Mom deserves someone better and so do those kids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It is hard for me to think of him as an intellectual right now when he is doing and saying things so unintelligent. But if Mom has faith in him, so do I. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Though I rarely (never) post to Mom and Dad at this point, I share ark's view. You are both in my prayers. Blessings to you both, and healing for everyone involved. May you find peace in these very troubled times.

Hey there Mom or Dad, I had some thoughts to share if I could email you...email me with your address?

stillheremakingit@yahoo.com

I don't feel safe on this thread expressing any views, thoughts or ideas anymore.

Lemonman, I don't like your sarcasm used when talking about MB principles. I understand you don't have to believe every idea to post here, but to use broad statements and jeering comments to people who are trying to save their M is not helpful.

When talking about the fantasies of affairs...one issue we don't talk about much is "intellectual fantasy". I see this pretty often with folks who are involved with "work" affairs, because part of the excitement of workplace As IS the "intellectual" factor. Communication between workplace affair partners begins as conversations about common interests, perhaps technology, business, etc....and usually continues to have those shared elements as time goes on even though convos become more emotional in nature. In contrast, the conversations at home with a stay at home spouse especially, often revolve around things like children, bills, repairs, the workings of home and family, conflict about the A.... and finding time for intellectual discussions becomes a challenge. In that kind of environment, it's easy for a WS to conclude that their homelife is not intellectually stimulating and that the H and W are not compatible in that way. It really may have no basis in fact...it is just part of the fantasy that affairs create. My guess is that neither partner is probably more intelligent or compatible...and that neither are intellectually defined by just their "job" or their educational training. It's all part of the dynamics of an affair and how "blind" those raging chemicals can make WSs.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
 Hey there Mom or Dad, I had some thoughts to share if I could email you...email me with your address?

stillheremakingit@yahoo.com

I don't feel safe on this thread expressing any views, thoughts or ideas anymore.

Lemonman, I don't like your sarcasm used when talking about MB principles. I understand you don't have to believe every idea to post here, but to use broad statements and jeering comments to people who are trying to save their M is not helpful. <hr /></blockquote>Well, perhaps you could tell me which comments you did not "like" so I can "fix" them. Thank you in advance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM,

Perhaps you can give me your email and we can write about this off the thread and give Mom and Dad some peace.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
 LM,

Perhaps you can give me your email and we can write about this off the thread and give Mom and Dad some peace. <hr /></blockquote>Well, I don't think this is really necessary. If you want me to stop posting on this thread to give "Mom and Dad" some peace....consider it done. I am actually am pretty accomodating guy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LM

Mom,

I was tremendously impacted by your appearance on the Dr. Phil Show. Having followed your story on MB and SMYC all these months, I didnâ€™t think I would be affected like I am.

First of all, I am so proud of you. You showed grace, dignity, and compassion. You embodied so much of what Iâ€™ve come to believe is important since I found MB a few years ago. It might have been easier in the short term to simply throw up your hands and throw your husband out the door. Instead you have summoned enormous courage trying to save your marriage. No matter the outcome, you will be more than OK. The process weâ€™ve all seen you go through canâ€™t help but have a positive impact on you, your children and your husband.

As an added benefit â€“ you and your husband have shown the world the likely consequences of taking that first step down the very slippery slope of infidelity. I suspect that had your husband seen this show as an observer, he would have made a different choice when faced with the decision of whether or not to have an affair. My point is that I think you and he have done the world a great service by taking this very painful situation public. Itâ€™s an education I would have loved my husband to have before he made his decision to have an affair. No one would want to invite this level of pain into their lives.

Youâ€™ve blown the cover off the seductive aspect of affairs. They donâ€™t look so inviting in the â€œlight of dayâ€.

I feel compassion for dad23 too. I canâ€™t imagine what it would be like to be in his shoes. I liked when he reached out to hold your hand. It seems he feels enormous guilt for putting you and your children through this ordeal. He has difficult times ahead, as he sorts out his feelings.

Lastly, my prayers are with you during your last days with your father.

M23B,

I haven't seen the show yet, but I'm going to.

I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you right now and you are in my family's prayers.

You have a lot going on right now and I want to remind you to take care of yourself while taking care of everyone around you.

You are a very special woman!

Paula

Mom to 3 boys (or Dad as well):

I know you BOTH are swamped right now.
It must be just nuts, being pulled in so many direction.....& all at once.

My only request is that you guys Point out to us ANY of the things the Dr. Phil show "edits" out .....that we never get to see.

{Such as your comments about your Father that you posted earlier}.

It would help us here......as we all are wondering things like "why hasn't her Dad's situation been addressed at all?"

If you could continue to do that for us...........That would be super.

However, If its too much....I will completely understand.

Wishing you only success.
Hope all this attention pays off in the end!!!

Okey, dokey...I have just printed out 82 pages of this thread in hopes of falling into bed and reading it tonight!

I will be going back home on Sunday. My children are ill and cannot be around my dad. I do believe. Daddy has had a good day today. He has been alert and awake most of the day. He didn't eat much though. And anyone who has watched someone with cancer die knows the signs. His urine was bloody yesterday. Today is has gottne darker with each diaper change. Yes, diapers. He is only 67! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The closer to death a person is, the darker their urine gets, JTLYK!

Well, dad is mad at me for posting the thing about the racing and I am sure he will be mad at me for posting THIS as well! Not sure why it bothers him so, if I cant write my thoughts down on MB for some input where can I go? Oh but wait, the MB therapists here are going to be the ones who make this marriage NOT work! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Not his Actions for crying out loud, but all the people on this board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sooo, where am I supposed to go for support? My neighbors at home? My mom? My dad? My dogs? Dad? Yes, dad would be the ideal choice here, but since we cant even get thru a freakin conversation on the phone without arguing, how is that going to work? despite the fact I do tell him I love him, he replies with "I dont know why, I dont deserve it" ARGH! WHatever! I think he is a little stressed...but hey, I'm NOT!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Sooo, in a nutshell, he is having a hard time with me expressing all my feeling and all our conversations and fights on this board. And just for your Info, I dont express ALL OF THEM!!!!

[ November 12, 2004, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: momto3boys ]

I guess I'm a little confused. Dad doesn't want you to post on a public board, but going on Dr. Phil is fine?

I'm sorry if some of the responses bother him, but I have to say that going on Dr. Phil, which is aired in 4 countries, may yield a much vaster reaction from the general public which includes his immediate area, hence his practice.

Jo

Hey there M23B,
I'm glad your spirits are up. You sound more peaceful..than that of recent...I'm glad for that.

I'll tell you a strange little tidbit..when my mom was passing from cancer @ 46. (scary right)

She had fallen pretty far into a coma...around the middle of August. The hospice nurse that came by daily... said that it may be a matter of only days. There were definately things happening...I won't go into the details...but you know what modeling is right ?

Anyhooo.... On September 1st...my mother woke up...and I mean WOKE up... got out of bed HERSELF... made coffee and breakfast for my dad, put on makeup...it was their wedding anniversary.

She hadn't been mobile for at least 3 months prior to this, was pretty much wheelchair bound, when she WAS lucent. Her bones were so brittle from the chemo, and 2 rounds of rad, that she broke ribs bending over to pick up the pen she had dropped.

At the end of the day, they sat quietly at the table, talking of old times, when they'd met, the babies being born.

She said she was tired....he walked her their room, and tucked her in for the night.

She slipped back into the coma that night. She often hummed the song Daddy's Little Girl.

For the next 16 days, she lay in a coma, never really regaining consciousness again... and on September 17, at exactly 12:01 AM, my mom took her last breathe, this was a bitter sweet day, because the 17th, also happens to be my Father's birthday, and my baby brother's birthday. He turned 13, the day his mom passed.

They say only the good die young, and I believe that will all my heart. And by the way mom.... MY mom....was also a BS... and she loved my Dad...with all her heart...until the day she died...and he was a repeat offender. But she never EVER gave up.

It's been 11 years, my dad just turned 61. He never remarried, and lives life as a widower, his biggest regret.... is not being able to make up to her what he had done all those years ago.

I hope there's a message in there that helps you some. When I'm at my weakest moments...I remember my Mom's strength, dedication, and committment to herself, her children, and her husband. If I'm HALF the woman my Mom was.... then God will be happy with me.

I'm praying for you and your family constantly right now.

OH no, it's not done yet. Dad has just said he is posting and blasting me. Yes, he is going ot blast me...Sorry folks, cant go on this way the rest of my married life. GO ahead blast away...

just as I sent those emails to an old boyfriend in July who had tracked me down, he was mad at that. Well, now he is going to let it all lose about how I had lunch with an old friend while I was visiting my dad in August or September. YEs, I had lunch with someone. ooooh, sue me....Never had sex with them. NEver brought them to my house....you asked me to stop, and i did. YOu asked me to stop the emails, and i did. so go ahead dad. Blast me...I deserve better. Yup, I do. I cant even get the freakin support I have begged you for in this time that i need it. YOu are oging to go on here and blast me, go right ahead. do it. I posted that thread about the racing BEFORE you decided not to go...but you cant get that thru your freakin head can you. No you didn't go...but you wanted to...and I wanted you to...I really did. I WANT you to go, I had NO INTENTIONS of denying you of your hobby, but there you go again, turning it around. go ahead Ed. tell them how bad i am. TEll them that I came here and posted about your racing. Tell them I just called you to seee what you were up to, and whta did you say "oh, I'm on MB blasting you! DO IT!!!! Goodnight. I will see you on Sunday! Dont call again.

M23B,
I just read his post, and I didn't blast him...I'm stunned...I'm stunned that he is making light of the OW being @ your house during your visits to your Dad.

I'm so sorry Mom...PLEASE...don't do anything rash right now.

he's going to get slammed over there..I see it coming...but not from me.

I'm speachless.

Be strong Mom.

Thank you betrayed! YOu are a sweet person! YOu made me cry <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I am so sorry you lost your mom at such a young age! It is so hard to watch your parents die of such an awful death. My dad is bedriden now. What used to be a 280 pound guy is now a 150 pound skin and bones old man. I have to feed him. I wipe his mouth, brush his teeth, and make sure he is in the right position and comfortable. I put his meds in his mouth and when he is thirty hold the straw to his mouth.I shave him and cut his nails. I bend his legs when he wants to bend them, then I have to sit there and hold them up, otherwise they fall to the side....When he needs his pillow moved I hold his head in one hand and move his pillow..remeber when your babies where just born... THAT, DAD is what i am dealing with. When he needs to be changed out of his diaper I leave the room...we have hospice 24/7...I sit with him 12 hours during the day. I went out to the grocery store today for an hour. When he naps, I try to take my shower and clean the kitchen and do some laundry. Other than that i am with him from the time I wake up til he goes to sleep. I will cherish these moments forever! Today I pulled some old pictures of him and my boys and yes of dad too. WE laughed as we talked about them.

YES...good for you...even if it's just to the store quickly...you HAVE to take breaks...this drains you SO quickly. At the end of it...you're going to fall apart...and I'm so scared for you.

I can't even BEGIN to know what you're going through...not at all. I didn't have the A when my mom was ill. I don't know how you make it.

I dont either, and I am obviously not getting the support I NEED from the one person I WANT It from sooo badly. I have to be the strong person HERE! I NEED someone to cry on...I NEED so break down at some point....but nooo, we have to be concerned with our own problems here. We have an OC on the way and we are going thru withdrawal, so no support for you mom.

I feel helpless... I just want to SMACK him with the biggest MB 2X4 known to mankind...but I don't think it would do a bit of good.

I don't even know what to say to him. I don't think anyone does...because nobody is really posting back to him... he has everyone speechless I think.

Have you ask Dr. Phil why you can't do plan B ?. WH is still in the fog, in the same state when I met WH. You need to go to plan B to protect whatever love left you have for WH.

[added] You are not in recovery, far from it ... sorry.

-rh-

[ November 12, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]

He is having a pity party. Let him...I am not going to join in on it. I believe he is afraid that once my dad dies, that i will leave him...but that is MY choice and you know what, if he doesn't change, it might happen. HE CAN change. HE changed from the man I married to the man he became during his A, to the man he as at the beginning of recovery and now to the man he is NOW...I know the man I married and love that man, I also love the man he was a month ago...but the man he is becoming NOW, I cant live with....if that is his choice and he CHOOSES not to change, then I cant help him or make him. THat is his choice. Right now though, it is all about ME....ME, ME, ME and my dad.

I'm gongto try to get some sleep now. I could talk all night with ya betrayed, but it's been a heck of a long day and nother one tomorrow. take care

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by redhat:
 Have you ask Dr. Phil why you can't do plan B ?. WH is still in the fog, in the same state when I met WH. You need to go to plan B to protect whatever love left you have for WH.

[added] You are not in recovery, far from it ... sorry.

-rh- <hr /></blockquote>Hi RH! Love you buddy! I cant go into ANY plan until daddy dies...sorry, but that is the facts. Unless I find a nanny! But if things dont change on dad's part, yes, Plan B or D will be next! Thanks RH!

Get some rest...whatever you can grab...you don't have to be on the boards to be in our thoughts and hearts.

Have some revenge dreams....that will give you a pick me up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mgm:
 Ok lemonman...careful how you talk about the nurses, if it weren't for us telling you how to do your job you'd be lost!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (being a nurse myself I love to give the docs a rough time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

<hr /></blockquote>Hey I may only be a dog and cat nurse but I take offense too *pokes lemonman relentlessly* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

{{{(((momto3boys)))}}} hang in there and rest well tonight. Tomorrow is another day. -rh-

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:
 Thank you betrayed! YOu are a sweet person! YOu made me cry <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I am so sorry you lost your mom at such a young age! It is so hard to watch your parents die of such an awful death. My dad is bedriden now. What used to be a 280 pound guy is now a 150 pound skin and bones old man. I have to feed him. I wipe his mouth, brush his teeth, and make sure he is in the right position and comfortable. I put his meds in his mouth and when he is thirty hold the straw to his mouth.I shave him and cut his nails. I bend his legs when he wants to bend them, then I have to sit there and hold them up, otherwise they fall to the side....When he needs his pillow moved I hold his head in one hand and move his pillow..remeber when your babies where just born... THAT, DAD is what i am dealing with. When he needs to be changed out of his diaper I leave the room...we have hospice 24/7...I sit with him 12 hours during the day. I went out to the grocery store today for an hour. When he naps, I try to take my shower and clean the kitchen and do some laundry. Other than that i am with him from the time I wake up til he goes to sleep. I will cherish these moments forever! Today I pulled some old pictures of him and my boys and yes of dad too. WE laughed as we talked about them. <hr /></blockquote>Oh sweetie *hugs* I know the feeling my dad is a kidney failure patient he was a diabetic and never took care of himself and has slowly declined and this past june had to have both his legs amputated....they had bad neuropathy and necrosis from bed sores that wouldn't heal....we tried everything from whirlpool therapy to the O2 boots....since the operation tho he has improved some he has a motorized wheel chair *yeah I know boys and there toys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> * and we just heard that stanford has said he is now a candidate for a kidney transplant again...so we are crossing our fingers...I am glad tho that alot of his pain has been relieved...

Let me know if you ever wanna talk...i'm here and there and anywhere ya need me

[ November 12, 2004, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: missinghimterribly ]

Mom -

I know exactly what you are going through, from taking care of a dying friend of mine. I know about the lifting, trying not to hurt them more, the feeding, trying to be upbeat when you know they are dying.

Please lean on us. We know you are a good person and need rest. Lean on us.

M23B - I know you replied to me on my thread, but I wasn't sure you'd check back over there and I wanted you to see this.

You might have my old phone number...remember I changed it. The cell is also off. If I pay it, WH cell will work too since my phone is an add on to his. Let me know if you have the old one on your phone.

Hugs to you, take care of YOU and don't let this stuff with D23B get to you right now. I KNOW, easier said than done.

You and your family are in my prayers. Being Catholic, I have to come up with a saint for the situation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Saint Joseph is the patron saint of fathers and also of hospice care and peaceful death.

**************************************

Holy Husband of Mary, patron saint of fathers, husbands and families, pray for M23B and her family.

Saint Joseph, patron of hospice care and a peaceful death, pray for her father that he may have a happy death.

*************************************

I add this to my personal prayer every day for your family. I hope you are given peace and comforting.

((((M23B))))

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by faithinme:
 M23B - I know you replied to me on my thread, but I wasn't sure you'd check back over there and I wanted you to see this.

You might have my old phone number...remember I changed it. The cell is also off. If I pay it, WH cell will work too since my phone is an add on to his. Let me know if you have the old one on your phone.

Hugs to you, take care of YOU and don't let this stuff with D23B get to you right now. I KNOW, easier said than done.

You and your family are in my prayers. Being Catholic, I have to come up with a saint for the situation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Saint Joseph is the patron saint of fathers and also of hospice care and peaceful death.

**************************************

Holy Husband of Mary, patron saint of fathers, husbands and families, pray for M23B and her family.

Saint Joseph, patron of hospice care and a peaceful death, pray for her father that he may have a happy death.

*************************************

I add this to my personal prayer every day for your family. I hope you are given peace and comforting.

((((M23B)))) <hr /></blockquote>*winks* ya know faith maybe you could be the official saint co-ordinator for MB....matching people with saints?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by missinghimterribly:
 *winks* ya know faith maybe you could be the official saint co-ordinator for MB....matching people with saints? <hr /></blockquote>You probably wouldn't be surprised to find out just how good I HAVE gotten with finding saints for situations in the last six months!!

I try to be the one to come up with them before my mother-in-law <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Of course, she knows them right off, whereas I use the internet to come up with a good saint match <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

hehe...hey it could almost be like one of those dating services....haha...faith there you go you and MIL could make some serious money.....see you don't need WH's money...you got skillz all your own *hugs*....*does a happy little dance for you*

[ November 12, 2004, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: missinghimterribly ]

Good morning everyone! I still haven't read this thread yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But i have it all printed out! I haven't talked to Ed since our fight last night! I had actually called him last night to ask for a truce when he blasted me with his latest post. Oh well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I haven't been over to that other thread and I wont go over there either. Too many people posting over there I wish not to communicate with.

Let me answer a few questions that some of you might want to know though...

1. Do I want my marriage to work? Yes, I do, but not under THESE circumstances...I cannto live with a selfish person who cannot put his own problems aside for a few weeks to help his WIFE deal with hers.

2. I want to stop fighting with him, but each time we talk he wil say "you dont want me"...I will say that I DO want my marriage that I DO love you...and all he can say is no you dont. or I dont deserve it. I cant go on knowing or wondering with every fight or arguement comes the D word or the OW word. Or the threat of either one.

3. I want to have a nice future with my HUSBAND...the man I married, the man I know he can be...not the man he became during his A...

I cannnot only think of myself here, my children are being affected too...and NO, I am not only staying with my H for the sake of the kids. I do love him...he CAN be a wonderful human being. He has been with me thru thick and thin...My children are aboutto lose the ONLY grandfather they will ever know! Then the threat of them losing their parents as they KNOW them...WHOA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You know that I have missed my sons' first orthodontist appt. I have missed being there to hold them when they are sick this week.

I would honestly like to put everything behind us and move forward, but how can we when all we do is fight over the PAST! Still bringing up an email and lunch that I had with a FRIEND. And NO i did not have lunch with that guy AFTER The XBF thing. I had lunch with that guy while Ed was still heavily in the A......While Ed was telling me he was in love with the OW and while Ed was leaving me at night to go be with her. While he was stopping by th eNH on his way home from work and having sex with her, leaving me at home. Then calling me telling me he had to work late. While Ed was sleeping in MY BED with another woman. I was having lunch with an old HS friend. Did I kiss him? NO......Did I tell him anything to lead him on? NOOOO...did I tell him I wanted my marriage? YES, yes, yes. As soon as Ed told me to quit, I quit. Never looked back. Anyway, enough of that. I cant fix anything anymore. I cna only fix myself. And that is what I will do. Focus on myself! Thanks for listening!

I am so glad, m23b, to see that in your last post that you intend to focus on you.

I don't post much on MB anymore... but I practically lived here 2001-2003.

I watched your segment on Dr. Phil... didn't know then that you were an MBr. I kinda get irked w/ Dr. Phil, Oprah, et. al. who believe that we are just sitting around waiting for the WS to choose us. I truly believe that this whole thing is a process and when you are ready, you will act... but that is the key... getting ready.

Once I was able to focus on me... and what I needed to do to get healthy... married or not... well, the changes happened fast and furiously. And, a couple of years later, my H has told me that what I did scared him... he didn't know what I was up to... it was then he figured out he didn't want to lose me.

I was given some MB 2X4s by members here for focusing too much on my H... it was then I implemented some 180s. I made a plan and began replacing a couple of unhealthy behaviors @ a time with healthy behaviors. I began individual counseling and joined a small group @ church that focused on healing unhealthy behaviors.

You'll also notice that I am also a mom to three boys... and my boys were basically the same ages yours are now. We also made some of the same mistakes of fighting in front of them... though I tried my best to shield them from the actual reason we were fighting. Our fighting affected them greatly... and now we make a huge effort not to... and the change in their behavior is noticeable.

Focus on you and them... begin to detach w/ love from the emotion that this whole affair is pulling you through. It is time for D23b to stew in his own juices and suffer the natural effects of what he has caused. Let him figure it out... while you figure you out.

Finally, people tried to push me into plan b... divorce etc. You will know what the RIGHT decision for you is when you have done the work on you. When you are whole & healthy, you will want a partner who is equal to you... hopefully D23b won't be far behind you.

Cali

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Once I was able to focus on me... and what I needed to do to get healthy... married or not... well, the changes happened fast and furiously. And, a couple of years later, my H has told me that what I did scared him... he didn't know what I was up to... it was then he figured out he didn't want to lose me.
<hr /></blockquote>How many times am I supposed to do this before he realizes though. I did this 6 weeks ago, that is when he turned around and realized "hey, wait a minute, I do love my wife...I do want to be with her, I cant beleive I ever doubted this" that is when he couldn't get enough of ME! haha. I was going to come on here and say how much I wish he would just show up to prove to me that he does care. But he isn't here yet, nor has he called todya...to ask how daddy is, or to see how his wife is...I gues he just cant put his pride and his own pain aside to think about ME for a day. **sigh** OH how I hate to see our whole lives torn this way, how i hate to see it disintegrate this way.

It was this last time that when he did start coming out of the fog and start treating ME like a wife again, that is when I realized we could make it...but again, now, he cannot get past the pain he has caused me....he keeps TELLING ME that I dont love him, that I will never get past this. WEll, it will be mighty hard to when I am constantly reminded of it by him.

Do you know how hard it is to sit here 12 - 14 hours a day and know you have no support from your own husband. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

My daddy's very best friend is here with him. YOu should see him light up. He is so happy right now!

"Do you know how hard it is to sit here 12 - 14 hours a day and know you have no support from your own husband."

ummmm... yeah. Though I didn't go through a death of a family member then... H was physically present in our family... but that was about it. I could expect no emotional support from him and very little household support either... so I worked all day... and came home to another fulltime job w/ the boys and the house... and for a long time, I walked on eggshells so as to not rock his boat and give him a reason to leave. It was crazymaking.

It is especially important for you to have a support group in REAL life... that is why I did individual counseling AND the small group @ church.

You are not going to get help from him now. He is not emotionally healthy to even think that way... you can't even expect it. I quit asking my H to do ANYTHING. 'cause when ever I did he acted like THAT was all I wanted him for...

...eventually I was able to understand WHY I could expect so little from him and how unfair it was to me... and I began to DEMAND (in a healthy way...no LBs) respect and safety from him... as well as set the boundary that he could NOT have a girlfriend and a wife... for me that was about 1 year post-dday.

Our affair rollercoaster was no quick thing... he held onto OW and other women friends for a long time.

It is a process.

Learn to detach from the emotion of it all. Think first before you react. And remember, you can't get from him what he's incapable of giving. You will hurt yourself trying.

Cali

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Once I was able to focus on me... and what I needed to do to get healthy... married or not... well, the changes happened fast and furiously. And, a couple of years later, my H has told me that what I did scared him... he didn't know what I was up to... it was then he figured out he didn't want to lose me.
<hr /></blockquote>How many times am I supposed to do this before he realizes though. I did this 6 weeks ago, that is when he turned around and realized "hey, wait a minute, I do love my wife...I do want to be with her, I cant beleive I ever doubted this" that is when he couldn't get enough of ME! haha. I was going to come on here and say how much I wish he would just show up to prove to me that he does care. But he isn't here yet, nor has he called todya...to ask how daddy is, or to see how his wife is...I gues he just cant put his pride and his own pain aside to think about ME for a day. **sigh** OH how I hate to see our whole lives torn this way, how i hate to see it disintegrate this way.

It was this last time that when he did start coming out of the fog and start treating ME like a wife again, that is when I realized we could make it...but again, now, he cannot get past the pain he has caused me....he keeps TELLING ME that I dont love him, that I will never get past this. WEll, it will be mighty hard to when I am constantly reminded of it by him.

Do you know how hard it is to sit here 12 - 14 hours a day and know you have no support from your own husband. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

My daddy's very best friend is here with him. YOu should see him light up. He is so happy right now! <hr /></blockquote>*hugs* mom...stop and breath sweetie...in and out in and out....
Okay.....heres what we shall do I have some flight credits I'll fly down there and we can go for a girls night out...so you can get a breather.....I have a way of lifting peoples spirits so I'm told....oh I wish I lived closer...I'd be there in a heartbeat....no way you could take a vacation to cali could you? Bring the kids I mean hell we have disneyland...we can tie down dad in a boat on it's a small world after all and let it constantly repeat itself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ...I know i know dad I'm just joking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ....I'm sure my DS and I could meet you guys down there....it would be fun maybe other members could meet us there....one big MB family gathering....hehe

[ November 13, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: missinghimterribly ]

one last thing...

ALLOW others to hold you up. Having read through your posts, you have made some tremendous friends here... as I did during my MB tenure. REST IN THEM and your friends in 'real' life.

I am recovering from surgery for colon cancer right now... AND his father has been in and out of the hospital since July... I don't think my H would have made it without all the blessings poured out by friends, co-workers, church, etc. Back then (pre-affair), I think our world would have been an island and we would have been overstressed from this dual hit... but thankfully we both learned to allow others to care for us.

Cali

Thanks to all who are supporting me. I took a peak over on that other thread that is going on. Yes, the drama of it. Unbelievable. All those people keep saying they are bowing out, but continue ot post. someone said that I am only giving PARTIAL info. WHAT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I'm not sure where that one is coming from...I have only been honest and upfront with everything and it seems dad gets pissed at me for that. Not sure what partial means, but my whole life is out on the line here. WHat else do you people want from me! JEEZ!

SPoke with dad today. Wanted to know how my DS4 was...also told dad that I was sick of living in the past, that from here on out I am living in the present moving forward. I asked him if he wanted to move forward with me or not. He said he didn't know. Told him he could move on with out me, but htat I was not going to continue my life as it is...THat I was going to go forward. He said he didn't think that i could ever get past the past...really wish he and everyone else would STOP telling me what i can and cannot do...I CANT get past the past if I am reminded of it everytime I speak to him and if HE CANT get past it. That's it, I think HE cant get past it...Well, that is fine. I need to move on now. I need to live in peace. I am fine with that. If dad decides to join me, that is fine, but I am going forward. THanks for your support to those who have supported me. And for those who continue to add to the drama of that other thread, go right ahead. Not sure what good it is doing to me or to dad, but amuse yourselfs if you wish.

OMG, that sounds so FAMILIAR! A few weeks ago, my H humiliated our 10 year old D for her not understanding division, I said, "Tom -- cool it", and he left the house and when I talked with him, he said, "Why am I always wrong? Is it because of my poor judgment in my relationship with Sophia?"

Dad isn't ready. You can stay in this mess, end the M completely, or move to Plan B. He could wake up, but you are only helping him to justify his actions because you tolerate them. Do move on. I know you've been in Plan B in and out several times. What I have decided to do is say this is it, if there is another relapse (Sophia may be out of the picture, but there's still neglect and verbal abuse), then we separate for one year minimum.

He said he's ready now. We'll see. I'm preparing for Plan B and will follow through to protect my willingness to reconcile if he isn't ready now.

Cherished

m23b...

My H said the same thing to me... I would never get over it. I would hold it over him forever. YADA... YADA... YADA... I'm with you. It takes time, but you CAN get over it... especially if the WS is purposeful in rebuilding the marriage... I got over it much more quickly when I knew he was 100% with me.

Be good to yourself.

Cali

Yes, Cali, my experience also as far as moving beyond the A.

At various times around the times of the ending of a false recovery is when the justification of his saying I wouldn't get beyond it. Yes, it was difficult but we have. It has taken time especially since he had another A a couple of years after the major 4 yr. A. I think that part of it has to do with the Post Tramatic Stress Syndrome.

Kind of OT:
One thing I seem to still battle is my tendency to wake up during the night at around 4ish and then not fall back asleep...Sometimes some thought/anxiety/worry enters my mind that makes me feel kind of weak in the knees. Anyway...the waking the night (at least 2x's a night) was much worse during the A's which is typical. Maybe this is just hormonal as I get closer to menopause years??? None of the thoughts are A related at all. When we were in Europe last May and we walked all day I slept though every night...maybe I just need more regular exercise than I am getting.

[ November 13, 2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Trix ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I haven't been over to that other thread and I wont go over there either. Too many people posting over there I wish not to communicate with.<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />And for those who continue to add to the drama of that other thread, go right ahead. Not sure what good it is doing to me or to dad, but amuse yourselfs if you wish.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm...

It reminds me of (not so rare) cases when someone tries to support one spouse by 'attacking' the other one, and when they get back together they accuse that person of trying to put a bone between them...

Besides of this... Mom23b.. somehow I don't think it is... fair? for posters 'over there'...

They might add to the drama, but they didn't begin with it...

Btw, I have never thought about both spouses being here was a good idea... not only because of 'that other thread consequences'...

M23B,

I just want 2 tell u first of that u r in my prayers during this trying time w/ your dad. I pray 4 your strength & 4 peace in your heart during this time. Please remember 2 take of yourself even thru all this chaos.

I did watch the show & being in the same situation of the A & OC drama, I truly relate 2 your pain. I will not judge D23B for his comments or actions, unfortunately I see many of the same traits in my own H. I will say that 2 me it took a lot of courage & some type of willingness 2 repair your M that alllowed him to appear on national tv & share your problems w/ the world. Not many men would do that.

I am thankful 2 both of u also that maybe just maybe your story being told publicly will help another M couple struggling thru this. I am hoping that my H will watch the show w/ me & see that he is not so unique & neither is OW in our case & it may open his eyes 2 exactly how his actions have pretty much destroyed our M & that he will do right by all concerned & decide once & 4 all 2 put our M first or let it go.

I pray that Dr. Phil will be able 2 get thru to Dad & that your M will be on the way to recovery soon.

U r a beautiful woman w/ a big heart & an enormous capacity 2 love. Only u will know when u have had enough if u get 2 that point, God will lead u, let him guide u. As Dr. Phil has said u can't walk away from your M until u know u have done all u can to save it, that is what u r doing, it doesn't make u a doormat by any means, u only human, a woman, a wife & a mother fighting 4 her M & her family, that takes true courage, commitment & a lot of love, it would have been so much easier 2 D Dad & walk away, but u have 2 do what is best 4 Mom & no one else.

It is sooooo easy 2 say what u would do in this situation, I used 2 say what I would do if my H ever had an A, much less fathered a child but when it happened 2 me, that plan went right out the window. If u have not experienced it u really can't speak on how u would handle it.

So sweetie my hat is off 2 u, & again just want u 2 know I am thinking of u & praying your M not only survive but be better than it ever was.

It's not over til God says so.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Mom 2 3 boys}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Morning Mom
How you hold up sweetie ?

I'm not going to say much about you and D23...I think you'll come to the conclusion that's best for you...pretty darn quickly.

I'm reading that you're sick of all of it, sick of the drama, sick of your life being robbed and overruled by the A, and all it's debris.

Whatever you decide, Whenever you decide, I know I'll support you either way.

He's still on the fence...and has no reason in hell to be...you've done the best you can with a horrible situation...everyone can see that.

I've told you once, and I'll tell you again, I think you and the boys deserve better than this. I think you're hitching yourself to a star...that isn't ready to lift you up when you're down. It's still all about him, and his needs. Over the last 8 or 9 months...I've seen you recommitting over and over and over...doing anything and everything you can... and in brief moments..you get something in return, but for the most part, Dr. Phil is right...you're still waiting for D23 to make a decision ... ANY decision.

I can feel you coming to the end of your rope... D23 needs to realize that...because all of us here see it. Maybe there comes a time..that you have to let him live with the consequences of his actions. If he is still confused..maybe letting her have him... will UNCONFUSE him...because you know the chances of that relationship working right ?

I believe you are strong, loving, sensitive, caring, intelligent woman. I think you're a great Mom, a great daughter and a great wife. If the one person who SHOULD see this, and refuses to see it... just doesn't get that YOU deserve better than this ?.... well... it's still the facts...aren't they.

It doesn't matter if you can or will get over the A...you didn't invite it into your M...and what in the world does YOUR ability to "heal" in his time frame, and under his direction..have to do with HIS desire to rebuild the M ?

Pep just got done telling someone else on another thread..the WS when really interest in recovery..should be willing to do WHATEVER it takes..for AS LONG as it takes..to beat the demon. I agree.

Hugs to you Mom.... as I've said before...I'm behind you 100%...whatever it is you decide.

Quote:
***Once I was able to focus on me... and what I needed to do to get healthy... married or not... well, the changes happened fast and furiously. And, a couple of years later, my H has told me that what I did scared him... he didn't know what I was up to... it was then he figured out he didn't want to lose me.***

Mom wrote:
***How many times am I supposed to do this before he realizes though.***

No, Mom. The question is, "How many times am I supposed to do this before ***I*** realize."

You are making the same mistake I made. You are taking action, but not to protect yourself or your boys. You are taking action solely in the hope that it will manipulate your husband into coming back to the family.

This is not ever going to work. Why? Because while you SAY you are "done", he knows perfectly well that you are anxiously and desperately waiting for any crumb of hope that he might throw you. He is still fully in control and he knows it -- and that's just the way he likes it.

This is exactly the state that allows him to maintain two women in his life, which is exactly what he wants.

Mistake number two, which I also made: You think that if you can just get your husband to understand how much his actions have hurt you, he will be very very sorry for your pain and come back and be your husband.

This ain't ever going to happen, either. Why? Because acknowledging your pain also means acknowledging that he caused it and that he did something very, very wrong -- and this clashes with his view of himself as a great guy. So, in his world it's okay to let YOU suffer so that HE doesn't have to feel bad about himself. There is nothing worse than that -- not even the idea of losing his family, as you (and many of us) have found out for ourselves. Therefore, as far as he's concerned your pain is YOUR problem and not his.

Someone posted earlier on this thread that you had done a good thing on the Dr. Phil show by "showing everyone the pain that affairs cause." I disagree. What you *have* done is demonstrate to men everywhere that yes, you *can* cheat and get away with it! Sure, your wife will be real upset and you'll have to put up with a lot of b*tching at home, but she won't throw you out, and as long as you can tolerate some b*tching you can have all the women you want!

This the message you sent on the Dr. Phil show -- didn't you see the reaction of the largely female audience towards *you*? -- and it's also the very clear message you send your husband every day.

What will help here? Well, Plan B, obviously, but what does that really mean?

It doesn't mean you throw him out, go dark, and then sit in that dark desperately waiting and hoping with every breath that this is going to change HIM.

What it SHOULD mean is that Mom puts a source of extreme pain and chaos out of her life to let HIM deal with his own mess, while she creates peace and security within her home for herself and her sons and her father.

In other words -- Plan B will not work if you are doing it to "wake him up" or "get him back." You have to do it to create peace for yourself NO MATTER WHAT THE WS THINKS.

You do not say to him, "*YOU* can't do this to me anymore, so get out."

You say to him, "*I* cannot do this anymore. I am not telling you what to do. I am simply telling you that *I* cannot do this. Therefore, either you move out or I will have to."

See the difference?

Now, Plan B *might* wake him up if you do it long enough and solidly enough. But again, you cannot do it solely for that reason.

If you don't remove yourself from this triangle and let it go on and on and on -- well, in the words of some TV doctor, "How's that workin' for ya?"

The cold reality is that Plan Be (a rather interesting typo there!) will only work if you have accepted the fact that it may not bring him back.

I sympathize. I fully understand how painful and and lonely and frightening it is to just let go, and at one time I was the world's biggest failure at it. But trust me, Mom, and trust the other people here -- it's the only hope you've got of ever having a healthy relationship with this man.
Mulan

What a wonderful post Mulan! Thank you! Yes, I have come to that conclusion and have expressed to him on the phone that *I* must move on...*I* must think of myself and my children, and I do not think that living htis way is healthy for either of us...me or my children. *I* will not live in the past the rest of my life and constantly be reminded of the lunch date I had while my H was still having an affair...right or wrong...and YES, I do know it was wrong for me to have *LUNCH* with a male person...but I NEVER in my mind EVER would have taken it any further. Of course, Ed will remind me of that forever...cant live thta way. He just cant and wont see what he has done is WRONG...I am not carrying another mans's child....you know in the next show he mentions that he always wanted a girl... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> WOW!!! I really thought we had made a joint decision not to have any more children together...Gosh, had I known he wanted a girl so badly I think I would have found a way around having a hysterectomy at that point. I could have sworn that man, my H, expressed to me he didn't want ANY MORE children..that he was done...WOW!

WEll, I am perfectly happy with my three wonderful boys. I thought I could go ahead and accept this baby into my life, but now I dont think I can...simply because I am told over and over again by my H that I will never get past this...WEll, he realy believes that in his mind...Unfortunately *I* dont have any say so on what he BELIEVESS...I cannot change him..I dont want to change him...*I* will not live this way...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Pep just got done telling someone else on another thread..the WS when really interest in recovery..should be willing to do WHATEVER it takes..for AS LONG as it takes..to beat the demon. I agree.
<hr /></blockquote>If you look back at his posts that he posted at the VERY beginning of recovery, he did write something very similar to this...

"I will do anything and everything for my wife to prove to her that I love her" or something like that...only lasted a whole 3 weeks. Now I dont think he loves me anymore, that he never loved me, etc...hey, that is MY opionion..

I am renting a car to drive home today. My daddy is not doing well today, but I think he is just so tired. I think he forced himself to stay awaake all day yesterday and now he is worn out. Dad is giving my guilt over leaving daddy now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I feel at peace with my daddy now..I feel I have had a great week with him...we laughed and talked a lot yesterday. I HAVE to go home to see my kids. I miss my kids soooo much. I will not be given any quilt over leaving today...I feel at peace with my dad now. I have said my goodbyes and told him it was ok to go.

ON a side note, I will be seeing a lawyer next time I am up here. I must protect my children before the B*TCH gets ahold of money that is not rightfully hers. I will not let that woman take what is MY CHILDREN"S! I will be on my way home now...THanks for the support..

BTW, I didn't start that "other" thread. matter of fact, I have barely posted over there. I cant speak for dad, but really dont tell me I started the drama, when I never started the thread...nor did I add any drama to it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> And i dont think the poster who DID start that thread had any intentions of it turning into what it has become. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

truthfully mom even if the wicked witch of slutdom is pregnant with his child....as far as child support goes...she has one you have THREE...hmm I wonder who will be getting more child support.....and even if you do get divorced...don't count out the alimony....let her think she will get all the funds from the rich doctor...oh we grovel at your feet!....NOT!...it will be fun to watch her bubble burst....awww now look at what i've done...i've gone and said evil things oh well...right now as far as OW go I have no respect for them and wish it was still legal to beat the crap out of them....but I can't soo i live here alone with my issues....and worry...I had to go have blood drawn yesterday...I'm not feeling right...and it's got me scared doc wants to see me wednesday.....

Oh m23b, I've been posting, on and off, this board for a few years. I seldom get so "wrapped up in a storyline". Currently however, you and faithinme have me in awe. You both appear to be wise, kind and wonderful women.

I've been reading your threads lately (never did finish the "original story" stuff). I think I have a handle on what's been posted.

I am so sad that your H doesn't seem to have the empathy that is required to work through such a crisis.

I'm even more sorry that during this very sad time with your father, he is not there being your rock. You do need a rock. You NEED a rock.

That is why I am shocked that he brought up a lunch with an old boyfriend, and tried to "in some very small way" make his sins diminish.

(my story is that my H was a serial cheater. And, he was emotionally abusive to me as well. At one point I did have an affair...long distance, mostly emotional (but we did meet once)...and it is something I VERY much regret).

My husband went ballistic about it. Life was HELL for some time. Some time down the road he said to me..."I'm not surprised you had an affair...in face, I would be surprised if you didn't, after the way I treated you". He no longer throws it in my face. Two wrongs do not make a right, and we both know that. But he was able to muster up the empathy inside of him to recognize that I was left prime and vulnerable to that type of attention. AGAIN, NO EXCUSE!!!!!

But M23B, your H seems lately to be looking for things to diminish his horrible record as a husband...and he's found it in a short-term relationship that was "close to" crossing the line (by your own admission), but that did not get that far. Oh, how I bet you too wish that he had stopped at just a lunch, and a bit of romantic chatter...instead of going full throttle into bed with his OW....and yes, and then to get her pregnant to boot.

There can be no reasonable comparison between the two.

I don't know much about the OW in your situation. From the comments on the board, I get the impression that she has behaved very badly (beyond the affair). But, you know that it is not about her, it about him and his choice. YOU KNOW THAT anyway.

I didn't catch you on tv (I was on the run that day). I commend BOTH of you on your bravery.

The little I have read about your H (and I try to NOT put too much weight on the negatives) is that he has a LONG way to go. He is behaving like a spoiled child. And, he is setting the worst possible model for your boys. How sad that makes me. (btw, their pictures are absolutely adorable).

As for his glib comment about Dr. Phil getting on him about having the OW in your home...HELL, he should be fried for that. He should be SO embarrassed, SO ashamed, and SO apologetic. Anything less than that just floors me.

And I guess that is exactly what scares me here...that he doesn't even seem to "get" he most basic of human responses. He may understand it on ONE level (the intellectual one...after all, we know how intelligent he is....he is a Dr.). But, on an emotional level, he is but a babe. That is abundantely clear.

In his quest to "figure it out", he has all of those in his life reeling with pain and confusion...yet he appears to NOT be rushing the issue to conclusion.

His apparent comment about you not being his intellectual equal is very true....(now listen)....I think you are MUCH smarter than he is...in EVERY way that counts.

I think your H is sick and tired over getting told what a fool he is...but hey, it was his choice to have an affair, and his choice to not resolve the issue in a more compassionate way, that have brought him to this place. It's like putting on three coats in the summer heat, and then complaining about the heat. Geesh!

I'm sorry to see you and the kids having to deal with this. I pray for resolve of this, one way or the other, so that you and yours can move forward.

As for the OC...you were prepared to let the child into your heart at one point in time...try to keep that open if you can. The baby is also an innocent here, and as painful as it's presence may be in terms of triggering reminders of the affair.

You are an amazingly strong women. How you can get up each morning and breathe will all that is going on just boggles my mind. If you can handle all of this (even if it shakes you to the core, as I'm sure it does), imagine what you can do when life calms down some, and you get something akin to "normal" again.

In the end, you will not only survive, but you will revel. As for your H, it's his choice how he survives. His personal integrity is right on the line here. He can grab that lifeline and save himself, or drown in the mess he's made.

Just wanted to share my thoughts with you.

Mom
Just read these last few posts and say ditto to their wisdom. If you remember FIM's posts and how quickly after Dork left that she regained a sense of peace. Living in this nightmare is more stressful than you realize. Once out of it, it's amazing how quickly one feels better. I too experienced the same feelings. The first few days were stressful but suddenly, I was relieved. I wouldn't go back to that drama for all the tea in China...

My husband's leaving had nothing to do with xow in fact the A had been over for years. The A is just a symptom of what's really wrong. I remember when you first posted you said that your marriage wasn't all that strong. Mine wasn't either. I tolerated...and tolerated..and tolerated until I lost myself. It's so easy to get wrapped up in raising kids and providing them a two parent family that we forget that the alternative may not necessarily be bad. For my daughter, no father would have been better than her father. My heart aches that I didn't get out sooner.

It's like childbirth, until you've been through it, you have a hard time understanding that you'll get through fine. It's was the same with me. I thought living with sure misery was better than chancing possible worse misery. I was wrong. My health is failing, I should be totally blind possibly in the next five years and I'm working at a job in which I'm overqualified...but it's pure heaven in comparison to my life before. I have new friends, going new places, and I'm independent. I consult no one about my coming and going. I've changed churches and am looking for a new home-my home-no one else's home.

My stbx has done everything he can possibly do to come home. I won't talk to him. He has to go through attorney's. He's miserable. Now he knows how wonderful his life was and he threw it away because of HIS actions. He's facing the holidays with no family and no home. He's living in our lake property that isolated and an hour away. I don't care. I'm happy. That divorce he filed has sat idle for over 3 months...he did it to scare me but it thrilled me instead.

My point is Mom as someone once told me long ago, you can't rake leaves in the desert. If it's not there, it's not there. You'll be fine. Go live your life and as I told FIM..live it to its fullest!

Dear JPH, you are a brave lady. I'm so terribly sorry to hear your eyes are dying on you. Is there any chance of saving your sight at all? What is the problem?

And mom23, I'll also jump on the bandwagon and say my life is more peaceful without my miserable husband around. The biggest factor in getting past an A is NC and with the possibility of another child involved, that is so hard to implement. I still don't think this is the time for you to make any rash decisions. There's too many factors at the moment affecting your state of mind. Kind thoughts. TT

MT3B,
I'm with Mulan. It really hurts to see that my children are suffering from our marital problems, and supposedly Sophia has been out of the picture since D-day 2 1/2 years ago.

Like Dad, my H shows no empathy towards me, and again the affair is no longer the issue. The issue is the lack of empathy and care.

Is Dad avoiding causing you any harm? No.
Is Dad meeting your needs? Look at how he is handling your father's illness and pending death.
Is Dad trying to work with you to create a lifestyle that works for both of you? No. Dad is blatantly saying he wants to have you and OW.

He doesn't care about you.

You don't want to model a marriage like that to your children. Whether you like it or not, you are teaching those boys of yours that it is acceptable to have an affair and treat their wives like Dad is treating you.

Plan B is about reclaiming your own integrity. It is about saying, "This is not OK."

Cherished

Got in late last night! It has been utter HELL here at the house. Sarcasm, accusations, "Yup, I knew you would do that" and so on, on dad's part. I have asked him NOT TO talk to me, yet he continues in the path of destruction. I have told him I am moving forward, with or without him...he KNOWS that I would rather it be WITH him, but he still doesn't "get it"...get the fact that I will not live in the past the rest of my life. He cant get over the fact that *I* had lunch with an old HS school FRIEND...NOT FLAME...FRIEND!!! While he was effing (as kimmy says) a slut in MY bed! He also cant get over the fact that Dr. Phil called him on that one. "I cant believe he said something about that..I'm really going to look bad after that" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> That is the LEAST of my worries...you see, he doesn't feel badly that he had her over here, he feels badly that he got CAUGHT! See the irony of this???

I would like to quote a few things...all by dadto3boys

Oct 9, 2004:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am back to tell you all that I am really going to work on my marriage. My wife is at the point of leaving and has lined up some guys who are chomping at the bit to to step into my shoes. Ok so lets acknowledge some soon to be painfull facts.
I do not deserve my wife.
I have been cruel and selfish
I have crossed all the boundaries that constitute honesty and decency.
I have had no regard for my children
I have disrespected my wife repeatedly
I have betrayed my wife repeatedly
I have done this with no remorse whatsoever until now.
I am a liar and a cheat.
Ok there you go I already have covered the attacks so do not bother being redundant.
I love my wife
I will worship the ground she walks on to earn back her love and pray for her trust and respect someday. It starts now. I have told OW in front of my wife. I will work out the details of how I will be a father to a child on the way which is probably mine. I will own up to that. I will not let OW back into my life using this child as a pretext. I will do my best not to let this affect my beautiful innocent 3 boys. Now I will go out and prove it. <hr /></blockquote>Oct 9, 2004
<blockquote>quote:<hr />it is not too late. I am just lucky to have her. Life is unfair, I should be distraught and alone, with no life to look forward to. I am just lucky. Time will become my ally. If I am transparent time will win back her trust. The OC issue is a hurdle that as I said will be dealt with. First stay the course for the remaining 4 months,of pregnancy, then paternity test then we go from there. <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />LIR I appreciate your post. I sincerely want no contact with OW. I will wait four months and after the paternity test, if mine I will provide financial support. I like the idea of waiting 6 months to a year after the birth to see if any POJA arranged relationship is possible. By that time I will know what OW intentions really are and if she plans to use OC as a battering ram agaist my family then NC OC and that's it. <hr /></blockquote>Oct10, 2004
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> That is when i realized I was about to make the biggest mistake of my life. I dropped the notion of being with OW like a lead ballon. I felt a torent of emotion for my wife that I had not felt in recent memory, This time I was not thinking I would appease my wife and secretly go back to OW. I want her(wife) back. The NH is a big POJA. I cannot quit for 30 days, I have OW schedule, and so does my wife, I can also go after hours with my wife. I have given the pager and my cell phone to my wife, she cannot page me or call me with out my wife knowing. I am not concerned with OW. Yes I may be forced to quit, but remember OW knows where all the nursing homes are (total of 4) she knows where my office is, all the when and where's she has. So my point is I would have to put my business and home up for sale. If my wife wants me to I will, It is uder POJA. I get caught I am toast. My wife will leave period. OW is a huge risk to me but I have to let her in, I WILL NOT. You will all see. Predict all you want, I know I will come through this time. Only time will tell you as I have no credibility. <hr /></blockquote>My how things change sooooo quickly...put house up for sale??? Quit job??? Under POJA??? yea right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> House will be oging up for sale...only because dad hasn't owned up to his side of the bargain...Oh WAIT...he HASN"T seen her people! He HASN"T called her! I keep asking him if he wants me to buy him a trophy for NOT seeing her these past 3 weeks...He DID see her..that is when our recovery STOPPED!!! He just doesn't "get it"...He is cold and fogged out now!

Oct 10, 2004
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I want my life back because strangely my last 9 months were a total waste. I hurt my family, hurt myself and lost all that precious time to enjoy what I consider to be a great life. <hr /></blockquote>Oct 10, 2004
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I took my wife for granted that simple. I used her good nature against her to prolong my A. Yes disgusting I know. Once I saw she could go at any time and she could do better and leave me flat on my face it got real hard to justify the A. I will have no contact with OW period. Doctor visits whatever not my problem, it may not even be mine. My wife still loves me and wants our marriage as long as I follow through. <hr /></blockquote>AS LONG AS I FOLLOW THROUGH

following through means throught you MIND as well...may not be in the A physically, but mentally yes....read the title of this thread...ACTIONS speak louder than words. He hasn't approached me in three weeks...what happened to the 500 times a day reassurance, the I love you"s, the I cant wait to prove to you how much I want you/love you, the I cant believe I ever doubted us...all gone...out the door...

Oct 10, 2004
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Well I now see what I have and can easily lose. I do love my wife otherwise I would have left and not come back. I always came back. Now I need her to see I am staying for good as a loving husband who will give her all my love and attention. she will get a new redefined husband who will put her needs on top and make her feel she made the right choice to stay with me. This will not be the same marriage. <hr /></blockquote>What happened??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> a new redefined husband??? wow, if this is what new, redefined husband is... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Put my needs on top and make me feel I made the right choice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Oct 11, 2004
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I hurt my wife I need to fully understand that to help us recover. I need to feel some of the pain she felt. I will never come close to what she felt <hr /></blockquote>Your damn right about that one!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am not motivated by jealousy yes I am possesive of my beautiful wife but I love her and want her back. Before it was territorial a few months ago while I was in the A. Not the same feeling this time. I will go to work now and prove myself for today. Then tommorow and the next day. One by one. <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I feel a huge weight has been lifted I am not struggling to juggle 2 lives, this is so much better than the mess I was living. In a way I want my wife to bash me now for all I have done but instead she is happy that her husband is back. This is the honeymoon and I know later she will need to get angry again. I will keep doing the right thing no matter how pissed off she gets, It is the healing process. <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Dad keeps telling me over and over again that *I* will never get passed the past! When in reality, it is *HE* who will never get passed the past! I cant get passed the past if I am constantly reminded of it! I cant do that...anyway, must get to the grocery store.

If each of you allow yourselves to focus on the other's actions, healing change will be difficult.

Real change occurred when I stopped focusing on what my H was or wasn't doing and I focused on me... and I mean ME. The anger and frustration that both of you exhibit stems from not being able to control the other's actions or reactions. I remember being so PISSED that he brought this drama into our lives. I just wanted it OVER and I wanted my life back. I kept calling the OW to mess w/ her... to exhibit some control over her life... really, really bad on my part.

Then one day I had to really look @ what the anger was doing to my life. It was exhausting. I think I had finished Divorce Remedy (Weiner-Davis) and decided to make a plan & do some 180s. 1st, I stopped the arguments... if he baited, I didn't take the bait. I think "hmmmm," or "I don't know" became my answer of choice. Or, "do what you think is best." I also remember saying, "I can't control what you do."

I began individual counseling so as not to bend the ears of my friends so much... spent a year there.

There was also, for me, the aspect of the 'chase.' Telling him that I loved him, kissing him, asking him to come to bed. I stopped cold turkey. The next time I told him that I loved him we were being baptized together an he said "I love you, too."

What doing these things ensured was that when I made the decision that I would no longer tolerate the 'girlfriend,' I could put some teeth into that decision. I wasn't angry. I wasn't emotional and he knew I meant it. It is time to separate because I am unwilling to be in a marriage where you get to have a wife and a 'haram.' I had made a plan for MY healing... to be ready to make healthy decisions in my life... not decisions based on retaliation or anger.

Plan B can help you get the emotional distance you need... but it can't be a threat or manipulation... it is truly meant to keep your love bank strong and allow yourself some healing. Plan B and/or divorce are not weapons.

I made many mistakes on the Affair Rollercoaster, but also learned some of the best lessons on it.

Cali

Momof3boys,

I am stunned...I did not realise that the couple on last week`s Dr. Phil was you and your H. I normally do not post on General Questions however I do read (though not post) through the Pregancy board so I did know your story.

I just realised today who you were while flipping through the MB photo album.

I have to say you are one tough lady and I admire you a great deal for putting yourself on international televsison in an attempt to repair this. And I thought I had gumption. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You beat me hands down. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I watched that show closely. Since experiencing the pain and subsequent recovery from my own H`s A`s...learning about the whole process has become a hobby of mine. It intrigues me.

About the possibility of Dr. Phil finding you "stupid" for staying in the M....

To some outsiders this is the way it appears. But any of us who have been in the BS`s shoes know that this is not the case.

We are not stupid at all. We are fighting for what we know is right. We want the ideal outcome for ourselves and our families.

However I agree 100% with Dr. Phil`s advice. And I know you are a very intelligent woman...and it seems Dr. Phil does as well.

I think Dr. Phil would like to see a positive outcome for you and I understand where he is coming from with his advice to you that YOU have the ability to make certain decisions to enhance the possibilty of a positive result. There are no guarantees but you do have more power in this than you realise.

There is a huge difference between 'wanting' to be married and "needing" to be married.

When a BS is willing to tolerate a long period of mistreatment at the hands of the WS it gives the impression to everyone (the WS included) that the BS "needs" to be married rather than "wants' to be married.

There are many reasons why a person would need to be married...family reasons...social postion...finances...ect.

But there is only one reason why a person would "want" to be married and that is love. We want to be with people we love.

Your H is an intelligent man. Whether he admits it or not he knows exactly how cruel is is being to you. I am sure he is questioning himself as to the reasons why you are tolerating this. He may be drawing the conclusion that you "need' him rather than "want" him. I am sure he is asking himself "How could she love me after all I have put her through?' "Is it me she wants or what I can provide for her"

When you set a boundary with a WS and you give the NC ultimatum you are sending a VERY clear message to the WS that you do not need them. You are also sending the message that if you choose to remain in the M and work to repair the M it`s because you WANT the WS. If you remain in the M it`s because you want to...not because you NEED TO/HAVE TO.

I think most people would choose being wanted and loved over being needed.

I would venture the guess that the very fact that you are willing to tolerate this makes your H feel unloved.

My H finally snapped out of his fog when he realised that I was going end the M. He understood the jig was up and that I was going to move on without him. He had to make a decision and he had to make it fast. He had no room to waffle. So although I did not make the decision for him I forced him to make the decision.

I think this is what Dr. Phil is trying to have YOU do....force the decision. The longer it takes for the final decision to be made the LESS likely it will be that you have a good outcome. More time passes...more love it lost...the LB`s pile higher and higher and OW digs her claws in deeper an deeper.

You are such a lovely articulate woman. Life will have better things in store for you no matter how this turns out. You DO do have all the power to end this right now...one way or another.

And for Dadof3boys,

If you read this, if you don`t get on board soon it will be too late. However if you choose to repair this you will. It won`t be easy but it can be done. My H and I came through recovery and we had several different issues to deal with too...not just his A`s. If you want it and are willing to make the hard choices and do the work it can happen.

One more thing....do you realise that you are hurting the OW by your actions? Not just your W but the OW too. You are being equally cruel to both of them. It`s time you made a choice and let one go free to make a happy life for herself. You are hurting the two women that you profess to care about. Do they BOTH deserve this? Do you realise how you are hurting them both?

I think you know which woman would be the better choice here...You lucked out when you chose to marry your wife and I doubt you would have such luck twice in one lifetime.

[ November 15, 2004, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]

m23b,

I've been following your story for a few days now.

It certainly is drama-filled.

I hope I will not be flamed by saying this, but here's my take on your sit.

You either have to kick him out or leave. The staus quo is not helping and is actually being counter-productive. He knows he can see this OW and carry on the A with relatively next to no consequences (you welcome him back when he wants you, you stay when there is the possibility of an OC, etc.) What is that saying? Insanity is doing the same thing, but expecting different results. This is what you are doing.

I know you are at horible time re: your father, but really, the stress and pain your WH is causing you is making this time worse, not better.

You need to focus on you- and I know this is hard because you read like a woman who needs to be in control, and you feel that going plan b is going to take away your control. but it wont. You keep talking about how you will not accept this way of life to your WH, yet you do nothing to follow through. This only gives your WH implied consent to his actions (and I know that is not the case).

You also keep saying "when is he going to realize?....". He may not. But why are you allowing yourself to react to his actions rather than going out and acting out (in a good way) yourself. You get that A's are wrong, he does not- so do something that is in accordance to that! Show him some consequences for his behaviour!

You are a mom- have you ever let your 3 boys experience the consequences of their behaviour? I'm sure you have. Your H needs this as much as you do. Right now he's getting you both and in doing so, he has no consequences of his actions- he doesn't even have to CHOOSE!!! He's got what he wants.

Please. I saw you on Dr. Phil and I could not belieive how nice and pretty and well spoken you are. You need to belieive in yourself. I know what A's do to one's self-esteem, especially if you are like me and did not have much to begin with. But at some point you have to say "enough is enough and I deserve more and better" ANd then you must follow through!

albw

YES! Cali,

That's when things turned around in our M too, when I "gave up" trying so hard to control the situation. I had to start removing myself from the arguments and anger. I was attacking my H, punishing him, making him pay for my pain and hurt. What helped was when I began to SHOW him how pained and hurt I was, and telling him.

I was never comfortable crying in front of him, telling him how hurt I was, but hte alternative was worse...I would get angry instead of cry...I would push him away instead of let him know how his actions made me feel.

This was a habit I had our entire M...the anger and rejection, the jealousy (found out later it was completely founded), the criticism. I tried to change throughout our M life...didn't want to be a nag like my mom. I had been given hints all throughout our M life, a couple of 2X4's, some gunshot wonds (figuratively), but it took a complete tornado and the threat of losing our M that woke ME up.

That was tough to take, I had spent so much time blaming HIM, and I had to look at what part I played in the "dance". And now that I've changed my dance steps, he has to change his dance steps too (or he'll look weird doing the robot while I'm doing the "Macarena"). And I'm still changing hte dance steps...to mix it up...and because I know he enjoys peace and tranquility, but he also enjoys excitement every now and again (so I hide around corners and try to scare him...or see him sitting on the sofa and will literally lunge toward him, but not fall too hard, I'm a big gal).

One other thing I can suggest? HUMOR!!
Add some humor to your lives, it dispels arguments and makes life joyful...hard to keep an argument going when you're laughing. One of our favorite tricks at the house is to open the dish sprayer with a rubber band...so the next time someone turns on the kitchen faucet they get a chestful of rain! You can put a love note on a post it note and place it on the underside of the computer mouse so the little bally thing won't work... But other than playing tricks, you can be more funloving, like practicing new hairdos in the shower with the shampoo...then walk out to show everyone...

We went to a marriage workshop with Mark Gungor "Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage." And he introduced something called a Flag Page, a website that asks you some questions then places you in categories that describe yourself...(there's a fee for the website, but it was SOooo worth it). There are 4 countries, Fun, Control, Perfect, and Peace. Can you guess what my country I live in is? Yep, the Fun country, but my minor country is Control. My H's Country of choice is Peace, and a side of Perfect... So we have some challenges.

Once I learned this, and was able to be OK with having Fun (and my H knew what a BIG part of my life this was) then I've been happier expressing myself. I have learned not to step on him and make the home a very peaceful place, and he seems happier too. He wanted to go to a friends house to play with a new toy for our son, and I asked him to come home, that I wanted to play with it too, and he CAME HOME...a MAJOR change...in the past he would have looked for ANY excuse to get away.

I've rattled on, thanks for opening me up...

So let's see...

You are not in Plan A.
You are not in Plan B.
You are not in Recovery...not really.
WS is still contacting OW.
You are continuing with AO's LB'sand DJ's.

Your thread is titled, ACTIONS speak louder than words!!! You continue to make this all about the WS when if fact it should be all about you and what actions YOU are taking to protect yourself from the actions of the WS.

Even with the assistance of the infamous Dr. Phil your only concerns seem to be how you looked on tv and whether you came across as a doormat. Comments like *wait till next week, I really take control of the stage* just promote the continuing self-nourished drama.

You are so out of control it's ridiculous. This website is nothing more than a place for you and your WS to do battle and seek attention for your unending drama from the unending supply of enablers on the site.

So, perhaps you've heard this line before...how's this workin' for ya?

This is my opinion of the m2,d2 circus. I think this site is doing more harm to your marriage than it is restoration.

(minor edit)

[ November 15, 2004, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]

I think this site is doing more harm to your marriage than it is restoration.

I've been in a circus for more than 2 years. More than 1,400 posts, 80 of them with Dr. Harley on the private forum. More than 100 therapy sessions.

It is very hard to understand what to do when you are committed to marriage and yet living with a man who does not honor those vows. After all this time, I have finally come to realize that I am the one who needs to change.

I think MT3B is right there. You cannot change your husband. You can only change yourself. Do you accept your husband's behavior or not? If not, you can honor your marriage vows, and give your spouse a chance to decide to care for you, by separating.

MT3B, consider reading my exchange with Dr. Harley on the private forum under conversation. I sense that you are close to seeing those two facts as well.

Cherished

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:
[QB] Got in late last night! It has been utter HELL here at the house. Sarcasm, accusations, "Yup, I knew you would do that" and so on, on dad's part. I have asked him NOT TO talk to me, yet he continues in the path of destruction. I have told him I am moving forward, with or without him...he KNOWS that I would rather it be WITH him, but he still doesn't "get it"...get the fact that I will not live in the past the rest of my life. He cant get over the fact that *I* had lunch with an old HS school FRIEND...NOT FLAME...FRIEND!!! While he was effing (as kimmy says) a slut in MY bed! He also cant get over the fact that Dr. Phil called him on that one. "I cant believe he said something about that..I'm really going to look bad after that" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> That is the LEAST of my worries...you see, he doesn't feel badly that he had her over here, he feels badly that he got CAUGHT! See the irony of this???
<hr /></blockquote>Ok first of all had my WH had his slut in our bed....I would have kicked his [censored] and he knows I could have so he never did.....dad...you need to wake the fudge up....i've been in the fog I KNOW.....what your doing right now WILL loose you your family...think about this....should you continute on your path and end up loosing your family...how will you explain it to your boys when they ask you why you don't want to live with them or be a family with them....how are you gonna explain to them why you left them and started another family with OW....imagine there little faces and how they will loose respect for you as they grow up and watch you putz around making these mistakes....they will have the love and respect for mom...not you...you yourself have already heard it from there mouths there opinion on the situation....they are VERY smart kids....*kicks dad* now stop acting like a [censored] or I WILL come down there

I've been reading all of this ever since I saw mom and dad on Dr. Phil last week, and subsequently found this board...anyway, the more I read, the less respect I have for dad and the less hope for their marriage. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it.

The man has zero respect for his family. I don't know how anyone with an iota of integrity could have unprotected sex with a woman who has already had one illegitimate child and is so obviously trying for another in an attempt to permanently tie herself legally and financially to dad. Is this self-proclaimed intellectual saying he can't see through the tramp? She's transparent, her motives are deafening, and he didn't even see it. He still can't see it. He had the nerve to defend someone like that to his wife? She's done something so cruel yet he's blind to it. It makes my stomach turn. This pregnancy is damaging to his children and the unborn child. What kind of corrupt person would purposely plan this? How can he do that to his sons and how can mom forgive that? I couldn't. Better still, how could he like a person like that? It boggles the mind.

Mom I feel for you but you have to think of yourself and your children. They are the innocent victims of your husband's selfishness. Maybe it would be best if he went to the OW, gave you half the assets, 52% of his income (which you are legally entitled to), then stopped torturing you with his fickleness. Let him get a taste of reality with OW (who sounds like a fabulous mom by the way - making then not raising her babies) and a newborn, I bet the fantasy comes to a screeching halt. On the plus side, he won't be bored anymore.

He can't make a decision but you can. You can live a happy, fulfilling life without him, and he will live a life of misery with OW (of that I have NO DOUBT), forsaking those beautiful boys. Be strong, he wants OW, I think he should have her. They deserve eachother.

just checking in hey mom you out there? how ya doin hun?

I'm ok...still reading, but really dont have much to say right now...I am just thinking a lot right now. Thinking of my future and what to do...taking care of ME...I'm in SAT right now, with my DS4...But I am hanging in there. I'll be OK...thanks darlin!

so I guess dad is too chicken to read the forum anymore......I am still tempted to come down there...glory be....it would be nice to have a friend close and nearbye.....