Hi bij,

Yeah, I really hate stereotyping too, so I understand why this upsets you. I don't think less of this OW because she is an LVN! It's an honorable profession. I think less of her because she pursued a married man and purposely got pregnant. But I also really hate the implication that somehow because she is in the medical profession that she is smarter than mom...ugh. Her education is just not extensive enough to imply that dad is being intellectually stimulated by her advanced schooling. I was so darn insulted for mom by that comment...like he had to go out looking for more intellectual compatibility...if that were true...why not pick a PHD!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Lifelong NC with his child and a one lump sum payment will be as close to adoption as you can possibly get and then for good measure he should also relinquish any and all rights to the child.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What about the child and how she will feel when she gets older to learn that her father(if that turns out to be the fact) abandoned her? The idea of paying a lump sum and giving up parental rights to the child sounds all neat and tidy. It would help the marriage because of NC, and Dad could focus on Mom, but this child is going to be a person. She is going to wonder why someone didn't want her or love her enough to stay in her life.

I am an adopted child given away by a single Mother who kept her first child. My adopted family was fine but I always felt a sense of abandonment because of the adoption. Not everyone feels this, my brother didn't, but I did. So, I am just saying don't forget about the child and how this would effect her.

Cathy

BIJ said:
"But someone else coming in, and throwing around judgements against someone's career choice..and the derogatory statements..just triggered me..and my HATE of judging people by their career choice/education/parenting. "

BIJ
I guess I could say the same to you. You do not know me. My best friend (of 15 years) is a HS drop out. She was in a gang before she got pregnant and had her first without a husband. To say we came from different backgrounds is an understatement. Our children were in an activity together when we met and became friends.
To say I "judge" people based on career choice/education or parenting is a HUGE judgement on your part, considering some of the organizations and work I have been involved with.

I am not ignorant to the fact that alot of socioeconomic situations dictate education and choices for careers. People are people I am not judgemental of that. I just have an issue with this particular other woman, OK ?

But if it made you feel better to say that then again I am glad I was your target of the day.

I wish I knew your situation, maybe I am some sort of trigger for you. If I knew maybe I could just ignore your outbursts.
SOM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think less of her because she pursued a married man and purposely got pregnant </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly, her career/parenting/education/social status..have NOTHING what so ever to do with any of it. It's just mud flinging..and has no PLACE.

And THAT is what irritated me.

If I've "lam blasted" anyone in my 8 months here, I apologize for that, but I hardly think that will be a long line of folks...if any.

I would think that when the OC grows up she would be told the circumstances of her conception and that whatever choice was made was intended for everyone's best interest. Unfortunately, sometimes that's life. She wasn't conceived within a marriage and that is a fact. Ow knew there could be consequences involved since it seems like she has done this before. I guess I don't know if she was married when she conceived her 12 yr. old.

Guys -- come one. Dad is NOT undecided. He plainly stated on the Dr. Phil show that what he wants is both his wife AND his girlfriend. His every action backs this up. And since both women are tolerating this arrangement, that's exactly what he's got.

Sitting around and waiting for "Dad" to "decide" would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. He has ALREADY decided. He wants two women and that's what he's got -- and he'll put up with anything to keep this arrangement.

Expecting Dad to "decide" between his wife and his girlfriend is like expecting a spoiled child to "decide" between a PlayStation and an Xbox. Each one plays different games. He wants both. And unless and until somebody makes the decision for him, he will insist on keeping both.

Mom -- please, please, take your power back. As Dr. Phil said, "Why is this choice HIS to make???" Nothing will change here until a rational adult makes the decision for the very spoiled, arrogant child masquerading as your husband.

Mulan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You mean she might have been lying to YOU Dad 2 3??"

Oh No, not to you! (**GASP**) Imagine that!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hence my post about it getting a helluvalot worse......dwh NEVER conceived the notion that sterling OW would ever cheat on HIM.......

GUESS WHAT????? THAT was a HUGE slap in the face....and guess what, also, Dad????? Your ow and ours.....the similarities between the two are SO amazing it's almost scary...they could be the same person.

She (OW) is not unique.
She is not in an unique position.
YOUR relationship with her, while it might've been exciting at the time, has been written in the annals of history so many times that the great Writer dips his quill in the ink then YAWNS and writes in tiny print at the very bottom of a page as an afterthought.

When He writes of Kandi though, His eyes twinkle and his smile lights the universe because HE is proud of her convictions and devotion.

Where is OWs devotion to the child she has now - you know, the one that lives with his grandmother????? What happens when OWs plan doesn't turn out the way she envisioned it - where will the baby live? How will she live....wanna know a secret? I already know. The baby will be at grandma's most of the time because mom won't have "time" - she'll be out looking for another man to fill the void of the black hole in her heart (the humanity sucking vacuum that it is).

Ask me how I know this - g'head - ask. Because your OW and ours are pages from the same horror novel (gasp! not YOUR OW....yep....every single thing I've learned about your OW, I could finish the sentence, because she IS THE SAME).

When and if that baby is yours, and OW has moved on, remind me of all the remedies for removing lice from a squirming and crying child's hair (also remind me to let you in on that the baby might be crying so...but so are you because YOU CHOSE THIS FOR HER). Remind me to let you in on the secrects of getting terminally grey and filthy dirty shirts and clothes back to a decent shade of white. Remind me to tell you that a booger encrusted nose, cheeks and upper lip are not NORMAL when you go pick up the baby for visitation.

G'head. DWH and I are EXPERTS at it now.

BTW: I've got reams of good advice on documentation for the above when/if you do finally decide your child deserves better. Because you'll have to prove yourself better....and in the eyes of the law down here - OW and you are BOTH liars and horrors.

Oh - one more thing. I know a reason you're waffling....you're worried that OW might just be the person I just described (and she is). You're wondering that if you go there, you'll be able to provide better for the baby by your mere prescence. I know this b/c its the #1 reason my dwh waffled. He knew the squallor that OW lived in. He knew her past behaviors. He thought if he was there, she'd TA-DA (waving the Fairy Godmother wand and sparkly things floating about like in Cinderella) be the mother she should be. Doesn't work that way. I let him go....and HE got to live in squallor....and OW STILL slept till she wanted once she got older kids off to school, then wh was stuck with the little ones (one of which wasn't his) while OW slumbered like Sleeping Beauty. HMMMMM......think Voila! Your OW is different? (snort) I don't.

She's not special. She's less than mundane. She's less than common.

And it saddens me to the nth degree that there are people like her (and you) in the world that KNOW their failings and still choose to wallow in the muck.

You, sir, need a good shower and a to be able to look yourself in the eyes in the mirror....I'd hazard a guess you've not done that in a very long time. (sigh) So much potential wasted.

- Kimmy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do think it's relevent that the OW is LVN and not an RN because of the way that Dad implied that Mom was not his intellectual equal. Did that mean the OW is? If the OW had a more extensive background in medicine, the kind needed to earn an advanced degree, then it wouldn't be nearly as ludicrous that mom can't compete with the OW in that arena.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think everyone is being a bit snobby here. Who's to say that someone with a LVN would be intellectually incapable of becoming an RN or a MD? Not everyone capable gets advanced degrees, it doesn't mean they are stupid. Maybe they lack the finances, the time or even the desire to go to school. Mom is not intellectually inferior either. I am sure she is capable of anything she would like to do and that includes being a wife and mother. Perhaps Dad should have said she didn't share the interest in Medicine and the things he is interested in. That seems more reasonable.

By the way, I read something one time that said that average physician's IQ is just above average. That kind of puts things into perspective doesn't it? Getting a degree is about hard work, desire, opportunity and determination. Good doctors are good because they work hard and care about their patients.

I agree with Mulan.

What is going to happen with this Dr. Phil family is status quo until and unless MT3B makes a decision.

My therapist once said that people take responsibility for making changes when it is a problem for them. Well, MT3B, is it really a problem for DT3B how this is playing out? Not really.

And, Mulan, have you made any decisions about not putting up with your H?

Cherished

I agree with Mulan.

What is going to happen with this Dr. Phil family is status quo until and unless MT3B makes a decision.

My therapist once said that people take responsibility for making changes when it is a problem for them. Well, MT3B, is it really a problem for DT3B how this is playing out? Not really.

And, Mulan, have you made any decisions about not putting up with your H?

Cherished

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Who's to say that someone with a LVN would be intellectually incapable of becoming an RN or a MD? Not everyone capable gets advanced degrees, it doesn't mean they are stupid. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one is saying the OW is stupid or incapable of achieving more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> The only person to make an implication about stupidity....was dad...on national tv. He implied that mom was not his intellectual equal. You're right....if he had said that the medical background gave them a common interest...that is entirely possible. However, that's not what he said. Being an LVN does NOT in anyway limit or define the OWs intellectual capacity. However, being a stay at home mother doesn't either.

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Guys...

I am really becoming concerned that this is just becoming a bash dadto thread....

that it is becoming the exact thing that I defended this board as not being.....

first of all....regardless of anything...both dadto and momto are in great crisis and pain...multiplied by her dads sickness...

the ability for either to focus right now or even 'hear' us is not in theirs or ours favor....


dadto is really lost right now....
in his pain
in his strong desire to have no one get hurt...

and if we can't reach out in some compassion then that reflects right back on to us....

I think people should just pray for them...
that is the best thing that anyone can do...

the minutia this is getting dragged in to...serves no one....

God's Grace to momto, dadto, and the family..
God's peace to her father....
Blessed are those who are poor in spirit....

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am really becoming concerned that this is just becoming a bash dadto thread....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ark is correct.

I needed to temper my temper ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).....Dad, you are re-living MY history. Seriously. I can't sit and allow you to relive it and make the same mistakes and cause the same pain in your family that my family has gone through, and keep my mouth shut. THAT is why I posted to you.

Please keep that in mind. Not only there but for the grace of God go I....for me it's, "There for the grace of God WENT I...and my dwh." Consider that when you read my posts.

What you are going through, while definetly causing an uproar, has been gone through and survived by others. You and Mom are the ones to make the decision on HOW you will survive.

- Kimmy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Being an LVN does NOT in anyway limit or define the OWs intellectual capacity. However, being a stay at home mother doesn't either.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree and I said that:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Mom is not intellectually inferior either. I am sure she is capable of anything she would like to do and that includes being a wife and mother. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me the only one that is coming off as inferior by being self-centered is Dad. But I think that he can turn that around and change that. If he chooses not to, than Mom deserves someone better and so do those kids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It is hard for me to think of him as an intellectual right now when he is doing and saying things so unintelligent. But if Mom has faith in him, so do I. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Though I rarely (never) post to Mom and Dad at this point, I share ark's view. You are both in my prayers. Blessings to you both, and healing for everyone involved. May you find peace in these very troubled times.

Hey there Mom or Dad, I had some thoughts to share if I could email you...email me with your address?

stillheremakingit@yahoo.com

I don't feel safe on this thread expressing any views, thoughts or ideas anymore.

Lemonman, I don't like your sarcasm used when talking about MB principles. I understand you don't have to believe every idea to post here, but to use broad statements and jeering comments to people who are trying to save their M is not helpful.

When talking about the fantasies of affairs...one issue we don't talk about much is "intellectual fantasy". I see this pretty often with folks who are involved with "work" affairs, because part of the excitement of workplace As IS the "intellectual" factor. Communication between workplace affair partners begins as conversations about common interests, perhaps technology, business, etc....and usually continues to have those shared elements as time goes on even though convos become more emotional in nature. In contrast, the conversations at home with a stay at home spouse especially, often revolve around things like children, bills, repairs, the workings of home and family, conflict about the A.... and finding time for intellectual discussions becomes a challenge. In that kind of environment, it's easy for a WS to conclude that their homelife is not intellectually stimulating and that the H and W are not compatible in that way. It really may have no basis in fact...it is just part of the fantasy that affairs create. My guess is that neither partner is probably more intelligent or compatible...and that neither are intellectually defined by just their "job" or their educational training. It's all part of the dynamics of an affair and how "blind" those raging chemicals can make WSs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong> Hey there Mom or Dad, I had some thoughts to share if I could email you...email me with your address?

stillheremakingit@yahoo.com

I don't feel safe on this thread expressing any views, thoughts or ideas anymore.

Lemonman, I don't like your sarcasm used when talking about MB principles. I understand you don't have to believe every idea to post here, but to use broad statements and jeering comments to people who are trying to save their M is not helpful. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, perhaps you could tell me which comments you did not "like" so I can "fix" them. Thank you in advance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM,

Perhaps you can give me your email and we can write about this off the thread and give Mom and Dad some peace.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong> LM,

Perhaps you can give me your email and we can write about this off the thread and give Mom and Dad some peace. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don't think this is really necessary. If you want me to stop posting on this thread to give "Mom and Dad" some peace....consider it done. I am actually am pretty accomodating guy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LM