I never loved my wife and I think my wife is not my intellectual equal = I need to re-write history and find reasons to justify my actions.

LM..

Without any emotional charge at all.. I fail to see the difference between never having contact with OW/OC while meeting his financial responsibilites as differing very much from a teenager giving a child that they are not prepared to raise up for adoption.

The issue is not M23Bs ability to love the child..it is about the likelyhood for permanent NC while there is a child involved.

D23B isn't really prepared to be anyone's father at this time..adding someone new to this excruciating parody is a poor choice in my opinion.

I do not however agree that both parents are always the best choice in every case..I concede that many feel otherwise.

If M23B were to gain custody of OC and OW to step out of the pic..that could provide 2 parents for the child..but based on OWs actions to date..I do not believe that she is capable of this level of selflessness.

I think that the best chance of intact survival for this family is for the doors to close definitively..I really believe that it is better for OW and her child to move on rather than continue this escapade. If the whirlwind can not be controlled today..on what bases do we place our faith that it ever can be?

Shall we leave just a little heroin around all of the time and hope that D23B will just never cave to temptation?

Foolishness. Sometimes love needs to be ruthless. I think that D23B has stretched himself out over two potential families and he isn't sufficient for one. His best opportunity for success is to choose one over the other and place his investment there.

It has nothing to do with payment..it has to do with sacrifice. If he will not sacrifice his wants in favor of providing a better future for both the OC and his existing children I would be very reluctant to consider reconciling.

[actually, I wouldn't consider it at all in this case..but it isn't up to me is it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

Based on what I have observed re: human nature and D23bs nature specifically..while there is yet an opportunity he will remain with one foot in each household.

Entering feelings into the mix is what greys it up..not the facts as I see them. Shall we make our decisions based on feelings..or is that how we got here in the first place?

Noodle

Lemonhead,

***edit*** You are right she could be the gardner and it would not make a difference as far as the distruction that has occurred.

I said it bothered me that the show took the "Doctor and Nurse" spin. And yes if you knew her background as I do (The OW) You might understand. It is just not my info to share.
That is where my statement came from.

Lemon I just dont think that it is constructive to display the battle of the egos between you and Dad. And I find it funny you called me on
my LVN comparison to a degreed RN when you have been all about your "Trauma" surgeon self vs Dad ER/family practice. What's the difference a fellowship? Kinda like a 6 month program VS a 4 year degree?

I have to go My surgeon is FINALLY out of the OR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
9:15 he's early, well that was short lived, the phone is ringing and its Memorial (hate caller ID)
Night
SOM

<small>[ November 11, 2004, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

I watched the show a few hours ago...

The most striking moment, and it could be a kind of conclusion, is Dr. Phil's statement:
'People who are bored are people who are - boring.'


PS: What could you say of someone who chose a woman to be mother of his own children being 'intellectual incompatible'?
(Not applicable to this case though, for here it is just a typical & poor excuse for a ws.)


PPS: How lucky some guys are... after all of this not being... Edit***... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 11, 2004, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

So..is an LVN sort of a glorified nurses aid?

Like..a half step above an orderly?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> LM..

Without any emotional charge at all.. I fail to see the difference between never having contact with OW/OC while meeting his financial responsibilites as differing very much from a teenager giving a child that they are not prepared to raise up for adoption.

The issue is not M23Bs ability to love the child..it is about the likelyhood for permanent NC while there is a child involved.

D23B isn't really prepared to be anyone's father at this time..adding someone new to this excruciating parody is a poor choice in my opinion.

I do not however agree that both parents are always the best choice in every case..I concede that many feel otherwise.

If M23B were to gain custody of OC and OW to step out of the pic..that could provide 2 parents for the child..but based on OWs actions to date..I do not believe that she is capable of this level of selflessness.

I think that the best chance of intact survival for this family is for the doors to close definitively..I really believe that it is better for OW and her child to move on rather than continue this escapade. If the whirlwind can not be controlled today..on what bases do we place our faith that it ever can be?

Shall we leave just a little heroin around all of the time and hope that D23B will just never cave to temptation?

Foolishness. Sometimes love needs to be ruthless. I think that D23B has stretched himself out over two potential families and he isn't sufficient for one. His best opportunity for success is to choose one over the other and place his investment there.

It has nothing to do with payment..it has to do with sacrifice. If he will not sacrifice his wants in favor of providing a better future for both the OC and his existing children I would be very reluctant to consider reconciling.

[actually, I wouldn't consider it at all in this case..but it isn't up to me is it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

Based on what I have observed re: human nature and D23bs nature specifically..while there is yet an opportunity he will remain with one foot in each household.

Entering feelings into the mix is what greys it up..not the facts as I see them. Shall we make our decisions based on feelings..or is that how we got here in the first place?

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOu know Noodle...........(says very calmly and soothingly) I can see your point.

If the premise is to save this marriage at all costs (isn't that basically MB credo?) then your solution is probably the best for them. Lifelong NC with his child and a one lump sum payment will be as close to adoption as you can possibly get and then for good measure he should also relinquish any and all rights to the child. The young RN......sorry, I Mean trade school nurses aid will undoubtedly meet anothr physicianan rligible man(sshowing more devotion and earning more love bank unit deposits)

Yea it was short lived, he ran in looked at the kids new pic proofs and ran out to the hospital, again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Noodle, I think it varies from state to state what the responsiblities of an LVN are.
Here they can assist in a Med surg unit (working under an RN) and in Nursing homes again under the supervision of an RN. Here they get a certificate from a trade school or city college.

SOM

"The young RN......sorry, I Mean trade school nurses aid will undoubtedly meet anothr physicianan rligible man(sshowing more devotion and earning more love bank unit deposits)"

Tipped too many Lemonhead?

Also for the record this OW is almost 30 and has a 12 y/o son, that someone else is raising
(was I aloud to say that Mom?)
so she is not a YOUNG Nurses aid <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

LM

Yeah, I hear you..but just look how successfull it is to try and talk people who are yet rejecting the failure and death of their marriage into acknowledging it.

Do I think that my suggestion is the best way to attempt a reconciliation?

Yes, I do.

Do I think that there is a snowballs chance in hell that it will happen.

Nope.

People can not acknowledge what is before them until they are ready. M23B is not ready..yet. She wants to turn over every stone..it's her choice and it might work. It's within the realm of possibility..she is doing everything humanly possible including being wiling to accept the offspring of his affair into her heart and home. I doubt D23b is capable of internalizing the enormity of that. He sort of reeks of entitlement.

By the way..thanks for the soothing tone..I just watched Gothika, and despite plot holes you could drive a truck through the imagery manages to be very disturbing indeed..I jumped/yelped and I'm (wo)man enough to admit it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Noodle


{holy typos batman!}

<small>[ November 11, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

I try and try to find a little compassion for Dad and every time I think I have a "tiny" little bit for him......HE OPENS his MOUTH!

All I can say really. Im not sure I will watch this on Dr.Phil anymore.....I think Ed likes the public arena and isn't really interested in looking at himself.....much easier to look at mom and blame her!

Mom.....you are a beautiful woman! Don't let dad make you feel anything less!!!

Blessings,
Atruheart

p.s. WHO CARES IF YOU haven't had any lawsuits??? What the heck does that mean????
To me it just means more $$$$ for mom if you continue on your self-distuctive path!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

M23B's,
(If this is a double post, sorry.)

I wanted to tell you that you are my hero. I didn't watch the whole show today as it was way too much of a trigger. My H was flipping channels, I heard it and wanted to watch but neither of us could make it.

I didn't discover H's A until it had burnt itself out. DDay, he ended it and never looked back. I noticed your posts shortly after I found this board. When I noticed you were back on and talking of Dr Phil, I was floored. I was amazed at your strength and courage for sticking this thing out like you have and then you opening your doors for the nation. This is totally incomprehensible to me. What a fighter you are!!!

I love my H a great deal. I can only hope that if I had been put in your shoes that I would have had the courage and the fight that you have. I am afraid that I wouldn't have had the strength. You can definitely say that you have done everything possible to try and save your marriage. One day, when this is over, you will look back and be amazed at yourself.

My prayers are with you and your family through these tough times.
MM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dad's OW is an LVN at a Nursing Home. She was a trade school grad. Not to offend anyone here.
But those of us that went to Nursing school and achieved a degree then sat for our RN boards this upset me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what upset you? You ARE offending people with these types of statements. Weren't you the one that also said that MANY young women become RNs to land the Doctor !?!

This a true reflection of your lack of diversity and respect for people as human beings period. I don't think slamming the OW for her career choice is helping this marriage.

From what I read...the OW gets to speak up on the next show...so she'll take on her own deal of crap, but you really have to stop flinging all the blame onto her...you'd swear she held hostages during this whole mess. People involved in an A are equally guilty...nobody holds more responsibility than the other. PERIOD.

She's wrong too, and any woman that gets involved with a MM is wrong, but she's been involved in the back and forth, back and forth as well. I'm sure she got a heck of a lot of mixed messages...and regardless of all that.... why do you have the right to judge her career and her parenting ?

Don't tell me you KNOW..because you DON'T KNOW...you know what people TELL you...you're not living her life, you're not her friend or her neighbor, so you DON'T know.

I hate the fact that you invoked sympathy for the OW out of ME....a BS who is healing from an emotional tragedy of infidelity under my own roof...what difference does it make what the hell I do for a living, how I raised my kids, or my choice of careers.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From Stressed out Mom:
I said it bothered me that the show took the "Doctor and Nurse" spin. And yes if you knew her background as I do (The OW) You might understand. It is just not my info to share.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, then Why Did YOU bring it up?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Its not right to bring things into the discussion, and then claim "Oh, but I can't talk about it".

What's up with that?

If it is "privledged" info. then please keep it as such.

bij,

I'm not sure why that was such a trigger post for you. I do think it's relevent that the OW is LVN and not an RN because of the way that Dad implied that Mom was not his intellectual equal. Did that mean the OW is? If the OW had a more extensive background in medicine, the kind needed to earn an advanced degree, then it wouldn't be nearly as ludicrous that mom can't compete with the OW in that arena.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dad's OW is an LVN at a Nursing Home. She was a trade school grad. Not to offend anyone here.
But those of us that went to Nursing school and achieved a degree then sat for our RN boards this upset me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what upset you? You ARE offending people with these types of statements. Weren't you the one that also said that MANY young women become RNs to land the Doctor !?!

This a true reflection of your lack of diversity and respect for people as human beings period. I don't think slamming the OW for her career choice is helping this marriage.

From what I read...the OW gets to speak up on the next show...so she'll take on her own deal of crap, but you really have to stop flinging all the blame onto her...you'd swear she held hostages during this whole mess. People involved in an A are equally guilty...nobody holds more responsibility than the other. PERIOD.

She's wrong too, and any woman that gets involved with a MM is wrong, but she's been involved in the back and forth, back and forth as well. I'm sure she got a heck of a lot of mixed messages...and regardless of all that.... why do you have the right to judge her career and her parenting ?

Don't tell me you KNOW..because you DON'T KNOW...you know what people TELL you...you're not living her life, you're not her friend or her neighbor, so you DON'T know.

I hate the fact that you invoked sympathy for the OW out of ME....a BS who is healing from an emotional tragedy of infidelity under my own roof...what difference does it make what the hell I do for a living, how I raised my kids, or my choice of careers.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could not agree more with the statement. I thought maybe I was the only one who noticed this.

Well, I guess I'm seeing this a little different. I don't look at this LVN/RN as an attempt to make the OW look bad...I think it has been one of the excuses that dad used to justify the A. What the OW chooses to do professionally is only important within that framework. On the one hand...here's dad saying that mom is not intellectually compatible....implying that perhaps she hasn't had enough education. On the other...he's sought out a woman who hasn't had that much education either really because LVNs don't need that much training. My guess is this has NOTHING to do with intellect or education or stimulating conversation (which I think mom is quite capable of...medical training or not)... and everything to do with lust.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dad's OW is an LVN at a Nursing Home. She was a trade school grad. Not to offend anyone here.
But those of us that went to Nursing school and achieved a degree then sat for our RN boards this upset me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">me too... ironically my WS's Ow is a LPN in a nursing home and they go around telling everyone she is a nurse...how did she get her LPN by being on welfare and the gov'nt paying to get her off welfare... wonder if there is a reason why Dad is not being truthful about this but then again when has he ever been truthful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Good Morning Star,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it has been one of the excuses that dad used to justify the A </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I took it more as some of his reasons he wasn't "happy" in the M.

I can't remember who posted it, but someone else had already stated that education, career, social standing, have no role in people involved with an A. It's not a reflection of what they do, how smart they are or aren't, and I HATE stereotypes of ANY kind...it IS a trigger for me...not even A related...I can't stand stereotyping. It's just a pet peeve of mine...and the welfare statement ? Good God...how did that even come into play ?

So now people who are LVN/CNA/LPN are all welfare rehabs ?

Do you see why I don't like stereotyping ? I don't think anyone has a right to judge anyone else for these types of events, and/or choices... (careers/education)...not A.

It's unnecessary. I don't think Dr. Phil glamorized anything. I have a lot of respect for both Mom AND Dad for not attacking the OW publicly. I think they are each taking their own responsibility..and that's GREAT.

But someone else coming in, and throwing around judgements against someone's career choice..and the derogatory statements..just triggered me..and my HATE of judging people by their career choice/education/parenting.

I apologize if I came off in a different light, I didn' imply any of that directly to Mom and Dad...just in GENERAL..I don't like it, don't agree with it.

No one, has the right to "look down" on anyone else.

That's all.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thank you starfish that was the exactly what I was trying to get across.

BIJ,
I just dont understand your need to lam blast people. You have been very caring and have given wonderful insight on this thread. I guess if you need to blast someone I am glad it was me. Mom is in a bad way these days.


LM
I said I was upset with the SPIN they placed on the show, NOT in Mom's and Dad's situation.
Did you not feel strange that they kept referring to "The Doctor & The Nurse" like they belonged? then bringing up Dads feeling that he and Mom are not intelligential (sp)compatiable. They did NOT bring up the fact Dad has said the same thing about the OW and the fact he says the other woman has problems putting sentences together and yes she is english speaking.
Did you notice there was NO MENTION that Mom's dad is DYING ? is that not important?
And YES the Dr Phil people knew the above.
They did do a good job of setting up for another show without mentioning the actual show.

On the other hand, if Dr Phil was trying to keep the focus on Mom & Dad only then I can see not mentioning the above. It's the "Hollywood" spin that kinda got me.

Alot of dynamics have occured since that first taping. I dont think you will be "seeing" the other woman.

TR
I know Mom has said alot of stuff I have inferred too here regarding the Other woman and the situation. Because we talk daily and I am a confidant I sometimes cant remember what was written here or said to me. Mom pretty much holds nothing in. I just dont want to cross a boundry. Mom most of the time directs me here to read posts. I have told her time and time again I cant. For any other reason responses like
above.

By the way I am not Anti OW. I socialize with wives who were once the other woman (before they married their husbands). Now please note I did not know them when they were the other woman. Just heard through the rumor mill thats how they started out.
I am not PRO other woman either. Mom's other woman has been incrediably nasty. I know Dad's part here, but OW here has been exceptionally mean.
SOM

I think that Dr. Phil did a good job of not painting Dad as a complete carp. Last night, I couldn't sleep because I was thinking: Did Dad show ANY, and I mean ANY, sense of compassion or care towards Mom for the h...ll he has put her throught? No. Not that I saw, and I didn't see the entire show because that's when my kids get home.

There they are and it seems almost non-chalant that Dad admits to having sex with OW two weeks before and he's been in the home six weeks. As I watched that, all I could think was Dad was the booby prize in this situation.

Cherished