Hi folks

OM GF called me today with details on OMs tournament schedule.

I told Squid about this and she said " I wish you would tell her not to call any more. Its just dragging out the hurt from the past".

We didn't discuss it, Squid didn't want to. We were OK afterwards though Squiddy was a bit pensive as an old sporting friend of hers is dying <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Now I have a dilemma because OM GFs update regarding possible accidental contact is a godsend to me and I still like the updates concerning their progress ( their recovery progress is GOOD for us , right?). Also TBH OM GF says it really helps her to talk to me about her fears and discoveries as I am the only reliable source of info and opinion in her world right now as telling her the truth is in MY favour.

BUT I can see how Squid wouldn't like it. All she knows about OM GF is the bad stuff OM told her AND that fact that Squids actions almost destroyed this woman's life.

No wonder then that Squid doesn't want me to speak with her again. I think its a good sign that she wants to leave all parts of OM/GF in the past. I'd like to do that too, but we are only 4 months past D-day.

My question is....should I continue the contact and lie about it ( not my instinct), stop the contact and lose this source of crucial NC info or continue anyway knowing it makes Squid sad and reminds her of painful stuff ?

This is a hard one. Any opinions ?

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 04:43 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:

My question is....should I continue the contact and lie about it ( not my instinct),stop the contact and lose this source of crucial NC info</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO because you would be doing the same thing your W did when she started on the slippery slope that led to her affair which was lying and deceiving you. Granted that you won't have an affair with OM's GF but you would still be lying and deceiving your W and THAT is WRONG.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">or continue anyway knowing it makes Squid sad and reminds her of painful stuff ?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO you must not be the source of your W's unhappiness and that is what you would be doing by committing the LB of Independent Behavior [who wants to live with a selfish jerk?].

Like it or not Bob, YOU are now the model by which your W strives to better herself, and if you do what she did when she was involved with the OM, you will lose all respect from her and you will look like a hypocrite.

Hi, Bob.

I don't think you should do anything with the contact until you have reasonable assurances and enforceable rules (POJA'd if you like) in place regarding no contact.

Once those are agreed to, then you can limit contact to emergencies only, such as suspected contact.

There is no reason that your wife should have regained that level of trust from you in only a few months. I think that it would be unreasonable for her to demand it, even if it would be soothing for her receive it.

You two will have to have a very real and honest talk about this.

Good signs are pleasant to see. Progress in the short term is very rewarding. It is not, however, history. A history of trustworthiness will take time to build from ground zero. You can't rush it.

God Bless,
Gimble

Brother Bob,

Well, the Policy of Joint Agreement means that you respect her request and her right to ask you not to contact OM'GF--and she respect YOUR request and your right to ask that you continue to contact for reassurance! Policy of Joint Agreement means that you two do nothing until you are BOTH in enthusiastic agreement with each other. The Policy of Radical Honesty (I call it Transparent Honesty) means that you need to be open and honest with your wife and tell her that you find the contact with the OM's GF helpful and reassuring that even accidental contact has not been made.

So it seems like a dilemna, doesn't it?? Actually, it isn't. Being as polite and understanding as I can be to Squiddy, she really has yet to deal with the A or deal with the damage that she caused you (meaning, helping you work on you). She has avoided it, behaved well, and gradually started to talk about it a little, right? And as far as I can understand, you are fairly satisfied with the progress. Cool!

But at this point, she really has not done most of the hard work that IS necessary or is going to be necessary to really recover. Recovery does not mean "ignoring it and it goes away." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The issues and weaknesses that lead her to having an A still exist. The issues and weaknesses that made the M vulnerable to an A still exist. You have worked on your personal issues...you have worked on understanding some of the relationship issues...but has she?? Hmmmm....I'm not trying to be judgemental, Bob, but more like realistic and not looking at things with rose-colored glasses!!

So, I would suggest a POJA along this line: you are willing to limit contact with OM's GF to emergencies--and you will be willing and able to be enthusiastic about it--when you two have worked as a couple to make more movement toward M recovery. You can even be specific, like "Filling out the EN Questionaire and LB Questionaire" or "Having an Agreement together on the plan to recover."

I don't mean to sound mean toward Squiddy--I really don't! But she has sort of backed herself into a corner of her own making. She has not done the work to have earned your trust, but she doesn't want to face the discomfort of the consequences of her untrustworthy behavior. Sadly, when a WS makes the choices they do, they do have to feel some discomfort in order to repair the damage they've done.

Use some simple logic here, Bob, and take the "lovey" feelings out of it. If this were you and a good buddy--a friend of yours for college let's say--and your good buddy did something that was harmful to the friendship and hurt you. Well, your buddy stopped doing the thing that was hurting you and even came to you and said he was sorry...and then kept asking you to tip back a few and acted all nice to you...would you trust him? He didn't really "repent and repair." He didn't really make amends for the way he had wronged you. He just sort of ignored it and acted like it didn't happen--and acted very, very nice to you. (BTW, I know that guys sometimes say "I'm sorry" not by saying it, but by a short series of grunts and beers--haha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> but that's not what I'm talking about here.) Anyway, you may have a desire to trust him, but he hasn't really given you logical reason to!

So you do owe it to your Squiddy to POJA, but you also owe it to yourself to not cave in and "trust" her when she hasn't done all she can to give you reasonable reason TO trust her.

BTW...it's snowing here in the Rockies! The night is so quiet and still, and the snow creates a blanket that brings everything to silence. It's wonderful.


CJ

Interesting all....

* TMCM I can see what you are saying. I cannot respond post-affair with knowing hurtfulness NOR lies. This was my dilemma, yet in truth I cannot YET cut off this source of crucial allied information.

* Gimble & FNCJ - you agree on this I know. NEITHER of you being unfair or unkind to Squid : she is so messed up and early in recovery that she is not able to process the damage she caused me and others and HERSELF yet.

SEEJ I know you would have Squid already in dual therapy with me, but she is no way ready or that. Pleas eunderstnd that is not my 'kindness' or weakness it is simple fact.

The girl was EA'd to the hilt with this man and she is recovering a broken heart for a dalliance that made God wince. I doubt and BS could ever know what that truly feels like. I don't blame her for wanting to put all unnecessary reminders of the affair behind her - that would be my instinct too were it not for the huge gaping wound I carry inside me that only Squid can help heal.
Y'see she is at a point where she is able to work HARD on the MARRIAGE but cannot yet look under my bandage. She cannot help ME yet, only US.

I am very impatient but when I see almost every day some improvement in her attitude or demeanour towards US its hard for me to be too critical.

Gimble & SEK It is NOT That I am easily pleased with scant response from Squid, but that I see so much more to come before she is able to do aht I need.
Gimble, you told me often that if God revealed teh truth of ourslves to us all at once it would probably kill and damn us each.

I really think that If I forced Squid to look at what she's done and the ripples beyind it it may break what fragile life-competence she has returning. I just don;t see how that is productive yet.

We have discussed the reasons behind the A a good deal now and she is already turning away from fog justifications. It sno longer MY faut as I was a workaholic - she sees that she deliberately built herself an independent life in Karate as she hated being defined as a SAHM and careerists wife since turning forty. We were both at fault.

As a result we have POJAed that Squid will return to the workforce in a way that does not compromise the kids wellbeing or the support I need to follow my jobs needs.
We went together yesterday for her to be assessed as a potential driving instructor candidate ( she passed!). As a result she is talking about 'giving back to the family' and cutting back or giving up karate. This is HUGE progress. Absolutely HUGE. Admitting her MLC, admitting her dislike of being a SAHM despite the lakc of sympathy that view normally elicits and the wish to contribute ACTIVELY to the family's wealth instead of draining it via her sport. None forced by me and all very positive signs of change of heart.

And there are more.

And in return ? She still believes I conspire regularly with the one person on earth who hates her more than she thinks I do. How can she think our calls are not slagging sessions ?

So I agree wth all three of you to a major extent. Some facts are inarguable:

1. I must keep my alliance with OM GF until we are both certain we do not need it any more. To give this up risking NC violation would be plainly stupid
2. I must not lie to Squid about this contact so I must position it as non-hurtfully as possible.
3. Squid IS progressing really well, but I can't keep this field dressing on for ever. She must start to work on me soon else I might haemorrhage to emotional death.

So there is my dichotomy once more: How to persist in something that understandably hurts Squid without damaging recovery ?

Bear in mind right now she certainly thinks of OM with nice thoughts so its a major LB for me to 'tell it like it is' That OM is in the sh1t and could lash out or reach for Squid at any time for comfort or revenge so we need to keep a spy in his camp.

I think I will instigate a 'status agreement' talk with Squid later today. I will ask where SHE thinks we are versus where I think we are in our recovery path. I will assess her response to see how far I can go in exposing the damage to her.

It will certainly lead to some sadness and withdrawal on her part ( such talks always do) but it is needed.

Thanks for your insight all.

Bob - Let's go back to "justifying" an action that is harmful to the marriage and potentially a sin against God.

I FULLY understand your rationale, perhaps even need, to have contact with the OM's GF. However, NO CONTACT is a two-way street. The OM must be out of your wife's life forever, and you must not be in contact with the GF either. Their problems, sad to say, are their problems and you do not need to import them into your marriage. How long would be "long enough" for contact with the GF, another 6 months, 2 years, a decade, forever? WHEN would you pull the plug and not be involved in "their" part of the drama caused by the affair?

You cannot stop the OM from attempting to contact your wife anymore than you can stop the GF from attempting to contact you. May I suggest as an alternative that you tell her about the Marriage Builders website and that she can gain lots of support and advice there, but that you cannot be the source of her support.

Bob, let's look at it also from the standpoint of obedience to God. "Forsaking all others..." is also a two-way street. If God is not enough then what, or whose, standards will be used to guide your marriage and your life? No, I'm not saying that you don't keep your eyes open, but unless you have a reason NOT to trust your wife, then you don't have contact with the GF to "compare notes."

IF there is any indication that there might still be contact, or that contact may have "gone underground" and resumed, then by all means talk with the GF because the purpose is to destabilize and end an affair, not to establish a friendship or someone else to "trust."

No, it's not easy. Certainly not easy this early in recovery. But it is another one of those things where YOU are reestablishing your "trustworthiness" with your wife. Not only do you need to rebuild your trust in her, she needs to be able to trust you also. Remember, the average recovery time is 2 years. So there will be plenty of "uneasy" days ahead, plenty of "suck it up" days, plenty of "triggers," plenty of ups and downs, etc. This is all part of the process of reconnecting and rebuilding. You both need to reach the point where you believe and trust what the other is saying.

A lot of it still falls on your shoulders as the BS. Yes, it IS "unfair." But we've never been talking about "fair." We've been talking about what needs to be done, fair or unfair. We've been talking about YOUR wanting to save your marriage and rebuild the love between you. We've been talking about YOUR needing to choose the hard road of recovery or the hard road of divorce, but there's no "easy" road.

Bob, I understand the "information deficit" you are dealing with. If there is any indication that your wife is NOT in complete No Contact, then by all means keep a line of communication open with the other betrayed person. I still have to check up occasionally on my wife's whereabouts because contact has continued off and on all this time and she has never voluntarily told me about any contact. Her last contact was a week ago and it MUST end for recovery to progress.

But understand that contact IS destructive even if you do gain information. You already know the most pertinent facts; there was an affair. You already know what is an intregral step of recovery; no contact. You already know the real person who is your wife and that HER commitment to No Contact is HER choice, even though it is needed. No Contact includes tournaments. "Sacrifice" for our spouse may well include NOT attending some tournaments if needed, at least during recovery, because she needs to regain your trust in her ability to "just say no" to things that may be destructive to your marriage. The OM's GF can't help her or you with those things.

(((((Bob Pure))))) I know it's not easy sometimes. I wish it were. God bless.

<small>[ November 20, 2004, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Hi Bob,

Actually, being on both sides of the fence, I really can understand what each of you are saying, and how it could be perceived as a large dillema......

Those who suggested POJA seem to have the right idea. Here are my thoughts, as simplistic as they might be....

You seem to be mainly concerned with needing to verify that there is NC, and avoiding possible C. She seems mostly concerned with the reminder of OM/OMG and the overbearing guilt that she is carrying right now (and believe it or not, there is an overwhelming guilt coming with the feelings that she is grieving OM - particularly when it's something she should have never done).

So POJA - take what you both need and sacrifice the rest.

Perhaps OMG could keep in touch with you to the extent that she would only contact you (via e-mail) with OM's schedule, and only in the event that either she and OM decide not to work things out - or if she discovers contact.

You can let Squid know that these are the conditions that OMG will contact you. You will not necessarily tell her every time OMG contacts you, yet you will leave the e-mails in your account, in the event that Squid feels a need to look at them (not violating Radical Honesty, but letting her take responsibility for the amount that she wants to know).

There is a certain validity to what others say about giving OMG support with their issues. It is possible that at some point in the processing stages that Squid would feel very insecure about you giving support to OMG (a reminder of Squid's failure to protect the M)......if indeed, it was a component of the EA portion with OM (that is actually how my EA started with my OM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ). You could always refer her to this site, give her your Board name, and offer support here in a "safe" fashion.....

Anyway, these are just my very humble suggestions, coming from and seeing both sides. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Good luck, Bob P.

FH I now that MY continued contact with OM GF is destructive even though I view it less destructive than Squid contacting OM. THats why its a dilemma.

LIT interesting you word the situation in that way. I droive on an errand this morning and Squid said to me ( in a hug) " take your phone with you in case 'your girlfriend' calls".
She's jealous, plain and simple, of my 'intimate relationship with a woman who hates her : is her 'rival'.

It has to stop in my view but while Squid bears any favour towards meeting OM again I MUST know his schedule.

I think a big discussion is due. Squid needs to know I have absolutely no reason to trust her without her direct and consistent effort at rebuilding. Thats not mean its just a consequnce of her affair.

Thanks all.

Bob P,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I droive on an errand this morning and Squid said to me ( in a hug) " take your phone with you in case 'your girlfriend' calls".
She's jealous, plain and simple, of my 'intimate relationship with a woman who hates her : is her 'rival'.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right in that she is probably jealous. She is probably feeling a little hypersensitive to those types of things right now. I know I did. My H had a friend (girl) that was supporting us both in the initial stages of recovery. Early after my D-day, I was extremely hypersensitive to their relationship. I did not at all feel comfortable with them helping each other with their respective relationships (she had been in an M where A's were present and was a FBS). They had not done anything wrong, but I was feeling nervous b/c it was similar to how the EA portion of my A started. Jealous....yes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Hypersensitive....yes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Wrong about where it could have led....nope <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

FYI - I backed off, trusting my H that we could recover anyhow. He told me that they were "friends" and she could give him perspective. My sig line explains it all. D-day for his EA with her was 9/12......

Don't get me wrong....I know you won't let things step over the boundaries. But maybe (and I don't know....I haven't ever spoken to Squid) it's possible she is doing more processing than you know. Her jealousy may be her instinct to protect the M. It may not have as much to do with being jealous about being OMG's rival as you anticipate. It may be jealousy related to you, and wanting to implement the rule of protection. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You guys can POJA this in a way where you are both able to get what you need, and are comfortable with the level of involvement of OMG. You can get his schedule or whereabouts without having to have phone conversations. You can give OMG resources for support without having to do it via conversation on the phone. Squid will need to trust that you need to verify NC and protect against contact.

What looks like a roadblock is really just a speed bump. Help each other over.


ps - you may have an initial instinct thought.... "How dare she be jealous when she's the one who had the A - she's the one who cheated. How dare she be jealous of me!" Don't know, but my H did. Please don't let this gut feeling consume you. Change the perspective, and realize that maybe she's actually learning something.... as always, JMVHO.

Bob,

I think you're missing something so I'm going to try again:

1. If YOU are calling OM's GF to "support" her, or if during the calls she is talking to you on a personal level about herself, her fears, etc., then IMHO I personally believe that actually is inappropriate contact and would somewhat agree with Squiddy. At this time, the only female person you should be meeting ANY needs for (conversation, emotional support, honesty) is Squiddy.

OTOH, if the OM's GF periodically calls you just on a factual level to discuss scheduling and double check times and phone numbers, etc....then that's another story. That would be checking up on the A partners to make sure that they weren't re-contacting. Especially if it's just a few calls, few and far between, then it's much more appropriate to say that those calls are used as double checking the trustworthiness of the two who were in the A.

It was my understanding, when I wrote my previous post, that the contact between you and OM's GF was more from column B...not column A. Thus, my post was written to say (in summary) that it is unreasonable for you to not be checking facts and schedules with OM's GF since Squiddy has not given you reason to completely trust her yet. HOWEVER!!! if Squiddy is asking you to not continue a phone relationship with the GF of the man whom she had an A with...then I think her request IS not only reasonable--it's WISE!!

So you are going to have to guts up and be a man on this one, Bob.

If you have "been there" for OM's GF and offered her emotional support for whatever shananigans OM is currently doing to her--then it is my opinion that you need to STOP THAT! I would strongly suggest that you tell OM's GF that you will only speak to her to verify facts...and that you honor Squiddy's request.

If you have only been verifying fact to properly inform yourself if the two really were in NC, then it is my humble opinion that you POJA with Squiddy that you need to continue the double check until further progress has been made in recovery--marriage recovery and personal recovery for both HER and YOU.

2. I have heard in your posts several times an attitude that really does scare me. In a variety of ways, it sounds to me as if you are saying that Squiddy is responsible for you, and although you may want to believe that it true, it just is not. Here's why I can say that so strongly and believe it so firmly. If the WS were responsible for healing their BS, then those of us whose WS chose to walk away from us would never recover! I know it's hard to accept, but only you are responsible for your recovery. If you wanted to, you could chose to recover even if Squiddy chose to continue her A and divorce you.

I would kindly ask you to take a moment and reconsider your opinion on this. YOU are responsible for your own recovery, and Squiddy is responsible for her own recovery.

3. I see that you two have had many good discussions about the A, how your M was made vulnerable to the A, what role each of you played...this is all WONDERFUL stuff and frankly a great step forward!!! But I hear rather vague thoughts being thrown out like, "...have a status talk with (her) to see where we are on our recovery path..." or "... start to work on me soon else I might haemorrhage to emotional death" and the part I DON'T see is a recovery plan. To me, it sounds like the pace and course of the recovery of your marriage is pretty much completely at the whim/convenience of Squiddy and what SHE needs or SHE is able to bear. What I would like to strongly encourage you to do is to not sell yourself out--to negotiate a very real "Policy of JOINT Agreement Plan for the Recovery of This Marriage" that works for you AND her (not just her); at a pace that is acceptable to you and her (not just her); and doing activities, behaviors, and growth that is soothing to both you and her.

Do you see where I'm going with this? At this time there is no real PLAN--no Step One, Step Two, Step Three--and there is not real consideration for Bob and what HE needs to do to participate in the recovery. Yep...Squiddy does need to heal from her broken heart, and YEP she is making good progress...BUT WHERE IS BOB??? Bob needs to heal from his broken heart too. And Bob needs to feel safe too. And Bob needs reassurance too. And Bob needs what Bob needs and is an EQUAL partner in this--not just Squiddy. A "Plan" gives Squiddy the time she needs ('cuz she asks for it and I suspect you'd be enthusiastic), but it also give Bob the comfort he needs that he can see his own help coming. A "Plan" also builds trust, because if you set a plan, and you can see that the other partner is actually working the plan and doing what they agreed to do, then you can begin to trust that they will do what they say.

Just a quick warning about this kind of vague method you are currently using. As a BS myself, I can remember very distinctly thinking, "It's not fair to me right now, but I will give this time to my WS so he can recover himself and then he will give back to me equally so I can recover myself some time in the future." My thought was that I would "be there" for him now, and he would "be there" for me in the future. NOPE. He wasn't. Once he got back on his feet, he asked me why I was still such a mess, then walked out and had more affairs. The warning here: do not assume that "some time in the future" the WS will focus on you like you have focused on them, because sometimes they don't. If you have an issue now, and they have an issue now, BOTH of you need to have equal attention to your wounds NOW. "Sacrificing" is one way to breed resentment.

Okaaaaaaaaay...in summary:

1. If you are giving emotional support to OM's GF, honor Squiddy's request. If you are only confirming schedules and NC, the POJA with Squiddy until more trust has been built and a better Recovery Plan is in place.

2. You are responsible for your recovery, not Squiddy.

3. Negotiate an actual, more firm, more definitive Recovery Plan that considers what Squiddy needs AND what Bob needs.


CJ

P.S. Did I pick on you? I am rather stern with you, aren't I? Sigh.

CJ
Yes you're hard on me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

When OM GF calls she tells me all kinds of stuff about the A. It helps me. But I can see that it is inappropriate contact.

I want to never hear the names of or think about OM or OMGF ever again but that not going to happen for sometime yet. OMs schedule is important but without OM GF I woulnm't have corrobration of hardly any of the stuff squid has told me.

Much/most has either been TRUE from OM to his GF and from Squid to me OR They shared a script aforethought. Not sure the second one happened but its possible. OM GFs data sharing has been invaluable to me : to US as we repair our relationships.

I understand now that NC should me ME TOO, but I must weight that against the possibility of NC being broken OR OM GF throwing out OM and having him predate my Squid once again. I am two months into NC - its pretty early for me to drop my guard - particularly my intelligence - regarding OM.

Like I said in the title - its a dilemma. Still working it out.

Regarding the 'healing' bit I see once again we disagree Seej. I have tried and failed to articulate what I mean before , to 2long. I think each persons pictureof what 'healed' means is unique.

As a person: an individual my wounds from teh affair have not proven mortal. I have personally recovered to such an extent that I am directing my life and our recovery fairly successfully and large counter-intuitively. If Squid left tomorrow I would be VERY sad but I would survive and eventually thrive.

But I have chosen to rebuild my marriage with Squid, not just my own life competence. Squid destroyed every strut, brace and construct within our marriage. Every one.

Right now we are living as two loving people who are not interlocked into a marriage. I do not wish to return to my pre-A level of reliance of Squid but nor do I wish to live as a convenient couple, rather than spouses.

God does not expect marriage to be a friendly, convenient and safe mutual cohabiting but a mating of souls and even flesh.

In short I must be in a place within our M where I allow Squid to hurt me if she so chose once again.

I can only do that if Squid actively rebuilds her place in my life, and helps restore the constructs she broke.

I cannot heal our M alone, I can only heal my own self. I am a work in progress but progressing. Our M is still in ITU.

Regarding the 'project for rebuilding our marriage' I do not know what the objective is yet, nor even what the piture on the box of the marriage jigsaw puzzle we are assembling looks like.
Any plan for change right now would be massive changes in Squids behaviour. She would tell me to f'k off and leave. You once told me to 'ask one question at a time so she doesn't feel interrogated'.

I would argue that my plan for recovery is vague.

It is non existent yet - there is no stone in place upon which another stone can be built. Not yet. Nor do I have a 'plan A' type set of tools to use.

I would really like high quality MC but there is none in the UK and Squid is so far from phoning Penny or Steve as to be comedic right now.

And it is a tad unfair to assume Squids doing nothing for me. She is doing what she is able to, which is typically more every day and week, by just a little.

We had a discussion this morning ( hard with the kids around as you know they seek out parents when they think something secret is happeneing right). I said I was kinda sad and hopeless today and I needed some love and support.
She held me and asked why. I explained that all I have right now for Squid is love: no trust, no faith in, no hope for. Just love. She held me and sobbed a little. I said " you have to help me to feel those things for you again".

She said " I know", kissed my brow and the kids came in.

ONE MONTH ago she would have left for her sisters house if I'd said that. Its real progress.

Its hard this recovery lark. But seej I think we';re doing better than you think we are.

And I refute that I wear rose tinted spectacles. The only reson I keep cheerful (normally) is because when I look into the abyss no joy comes from it. We have far to go but we are doing really well for 2 months of NC IMO.

Thanks for your care tho' CJ. I truly appreciate it.

I feel dismissed.

I have given this thought (to me that means I've read what you wrote, pondered it, and given it time to kick around in my head), and it's not that we disagree. I think I could handle respectful disagreement with some reasonable logic on each side. Nope, it's not that.

To be blunt, I do not think you are ready to hear what I've been telling you. It seems like you are unwilling to even consider if what I'm saying has a spot of truth to it, and it sounds like you are justifying keeping things status quo so you don't have to rock the boat or do any of the scary work of recovery.

The contact with OM's GF thing is really relatively easy. POJA means you do NOTHING until both of you are in enthusiastic agreement. Squiddy is not in agreement, therefore out of respect you must do nothing. If you do it anyway, you are breaking POJA and modeling disrespectful behavior. But, then again, you are an adult free to make your own decisions and also free to experience the consequences of not respecting your spouse.

Likewise, I mildly challenged you that if you are meeting the needs of OM's GF and providing her emotional support, that it was pretty inappropriate contact. Frankly, to hold no bunches, if you are speaking to her in that manner it is my opinion that you are just a few months away from an A of your own. Furthermore, since you did not address it in your post AND you did try to justify continuing contact and why you "NEED" to contact her, I have even STRONGER suspicions that you are beginning to slip down that slippery slope and beginning to have a little foggy Bob-babble of your own.

Bob, we are a Bob Pure Fan Club here, and I tremble to think that some of your purest fans are going to club me, but I have EXTREMELY SERIOUS CONCERNS that you are heading in a very dangerous direction and refuse to see it. You won't break off contact with someone who is presenting a danger to your M, you aren't transparently open and honest with Squiddy, you expect her to be responsible for fixing you...sound a little familiar??? Foggy, maybe???

Okay, don't get me wrong. I absolutely am not saying that what you and OM's GF have is an A--probably not even an EA yet (altho possibly on her part). But it won't take much for it to become one!! This is like a huge freight train barreling down the track, and I'm trying to wave the red flags and tell it stop. The momentum of the movement of the train is just TONS of moving energy, and it is very hard to stop...but it's got to stop now or it's going to be a trainwreck.

And I think what bugs me the most is that I feel as if I am being dismissed. "Yes, CJ, I read what you wrote, but I'm not listening to any of it. I want to keep doing it my way." You are the engineer on the speeding train, barreling down the track, and I'm waving the flags, and you're saying, "Yes, I see your flags, but this train is just fine. I want to keep going the way I'm going and see no reason to stop" so you go blindly into a trainwreck.

I'm not going to leave, but I am going to think about this a bit. I won't stop waving my red flags, but it does hurt me to see you heading toward a way that I believe will hurt you and you won't at least slow down and pay attention.


CJ

SEEJ I am sorry you feel you are being dismissed. I don't intend that at all.

In summary if I AM meeting ENs of OM GF it is only as a consequence of her meeting MY needs to police no contact.
I have EXTREMELY SERIOUS CONCERNS that you are heading in a very dangerous direction and refuse to see it. You won't break off contact with someone who is presenting a danger to your M, you aren't transparently open and honest with Squiddy, you expect her to be responsible for fixing you...sound a little familiar??? Foggy, maybe???

I am open and transparent with Squid concerning OM GFs contacts with me. She has been present at a couple when I have taken the calls.

I do not fear an EA developing, but I do think it at least disrespectful that I listen to a woman righteously slating my missus even if it is with good intention. You have made me see that, thanks.

I do refuse to totally break contact though until i can trust OM and Squid to maintain NC. Sorry Seej that more important than the principle here.

Next time OM GF contacts me I will ask that we exchange data via EMAIL and fax rather than phone.

There will be no conversation then, just dates.

Because I dont always agree CJ it doesn't mean I am dismissing you really.

{{{{CJ}}}}

Hey Bob,

You know that I'm a big fan of yours... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I haven't really been keeping up with this thread and just read through it all today.

You're getting lots of good info here and it looks like you're taking everything into consideration. So I'm going to throw my $0.02 in for what it's worth...

I tend to agree with CJ... you are treading on dangerous ground. You and the OM's GF are both hurt... Your focus needs to be on rebuilding your M... not checking up on OM & Squidy through the OM's GF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do refuse to totally break contact though until i can trust OM and Squid to maintain NC. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Give the OM's GF this web address and ask her to post here... you need to stop contacting her directly (and I'd say that goes for fax or e-mail as well)...

Use this forum to exchange info if you must, but phone calls, faxes, or e-mails are just playing with fire when you are both hurting so much.

Again, Bob, this is just my $0.02... I respect the heck out of you and know that you are aware of the dangers... Just don't want to see a fellow MB'er in more pain when it can be avoided...

Semper Fi,
RIF

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would argue that my plan for recovery is vague.

It is non existent yet - there is no stone in place upon which another stone can be built. Not yet. Nor do I have a 'plan A' type set of tools to use.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob - Allow me to respectfully disagree with your above statements.

Yes, your recovery plan may seem "vague" but that does not mean that it is non-existant.

There IS a "stone" in place that can be built upon, one TODAY at a time. That stone is Jesus Christ and the way to build is to follow God's commands in humble submission and obedience.

I'm hearing a lot more of "what Bob can do" and that is not wrong. But I'm also hearing less reliance upon on God, the one who is really in control, for rebuilding a successful, God-honoring, marriage. It's easy, I know, to slip back into the "feelings" and "justifications" that seem to make "human" rational sense. But that is exactly the sort of thinking that gets us to try to do things "in our own power" and to replace God at the helm of our lives.

It is NOT easy. You have been hurt tremendously by the actions of your helpmeet. But this "testing" of your faith is merely one more way that God uses to strengthen your walk with him or to reveal "flaws" in your reasoning and faith in Him.

So let me go back to what you said to your wife. All you have is love, but are lacking all the other things that are needed. "These three remain...faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love." You (and your wife because you have it) already have the greatest and most important thing....love. The rest comes over time and with the two of you behaving in loving ways that strengthen the marriage. It is putting on an "attitude of servanthood." Yep. There is still going to be pain and uncertainty for a while.

Surprise! You HAVE been betrayed. What a novel concept. Jesus most certainly does not understand that concept. He most certainly was never betrayed. He most certainly was NOT "fully man," so as God, He just simply can't understand what you and I are feeling.

God gives you the Rock and the blueprints for building a solid, lasting structure. You can choose to follow that blueprint or you can choose to build as the whim hits you without regard to specifications, planning, or trust in the architect. God KNOWS that from our human standpoint much of what He tells us to do IS HARD. "We are weak, yet He is strong," as the phrase in the song goes. God gives us Philippians 4:13 for just that reason. God NEVER tells us to do something without also providing the means to do it.

But we are really talking about TRUST here, aren't we? You don't trust you wife yet. Understandable. It's been over 2.5 years in recovery for me and I still don't trust my wife in anything related to the OM. But that doesn't stop me from trying to "submit to and trust God" regardless of how I might be feeling, even when the "it's hopeless" feelings hit. THE issue is WHOM DO you trust? Who IS faithful to all of His promises? Who IS faithful and trustworthy and will NOT give you a "stone to eat" as His child when you need bread? Who will lead us through each "valley of the shadow of death" that we encounter even though we are almost paralyzed with fear and doubt? Who KNOWS the way and IS the most capable guide?

Knock, knock. "I stand at the door and knock. If anyone will open the door and invite me in, I will come in and sit down with him and make my home with him."

Bob, you are "relearning" two areas of your life that are very important. You are learning to have a good marriage where both you and your wife are learning what it means to be the "servant of each other." You are also learning that God IS present with us every day and everywhere we go. You are learning that "Father DOES know best" and that we have to stop behaving as "prodigal children" and allow Him to be the center of our lives. HE paid the price for us when we could not be trusted. HE continues to cover us with that price every time we "fail" and backslide and then "come to our senses." His love is unconditional once we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. He does love His bride and is patient with us as He tries to teach us the wisdom in "submitting to the authority of our bridegroom" as HE is the spiritual head of our marriage.

Do you NEED the information from the OM's GF? I'll be the last one to tell you NOT to have a way to "check up" on the veracity of your wife's statements and commitment to NC, especially early in recovery. I only caution you that there must be an end to it at some point, hopefully sooner than later. The issue for that determination is simple. "Trust as long as you have no valid reason not to trust." That is NOT the same thing as saying "have no lingering fear" that you are being lied to. It IS saying trust, in God, to help no matter what. It is saying that God will continue to use the events, both good and bad, in our lives to teach us and reach us with the TRUTH that for Christians, surrendering our lives to Him IS the only choice. ALL the other things are "added unto you" after you begin your walk in "Christ-likeness."

So whether or not it is checking cell phone records, computer files, or the OM's whereabouts regarding tournaments where contact COULD take place, it is YOUR responsibility to balance what you are doing with a genuine concern and love for your wife, to perform your role of "protector" for her and to keep her from temptation. Bottom line, either she does not go to places where the OM will be, or you ALWAYS go with her for support and protection.

It is also your responsibility to end some of the checking (it WILL begin to develop into a habit for you and will be tough to "break" if you are not careful) that you do now. THAT is what I am talking about. Checking, for now, IS a consequence of the betrayal. It IS a part reestablishing that trust. It IS detrimental to recovery in the long run. Your wife will NOT like it at all and it reinforces your current lack of trust. But TRUST is a necessary component that must be rebuilt, must be earned, over time, must be given by both of you to each other.

It can only be likened to the painful necessity of surgery(checking up) to allow healing and recovery to occur. You "undergo" the surgeries that are "needed," but no more than that. Then you begin the process of healing, recovery, and rebuilding a "whole" life.

Things like accountability, open and honest communications, forgiving the inevitable future hurts, never being the source of hurt and pain for our spouse, are all building blocks and part of the "new marriage." Even if the possibility of the disease coming back in the future is real, trust and a willingness to be vulnerable to the potential for being hurt again IS part of what love is all about. But the changes in your lifestyle may be enough to suppress the chances of a reocurrence....and you live happily and healthily forever and ever....until death you do part.

You are not alone in the struggle. God knows just how stubbornly we try to hold onto "control." He is patient and loving, gently teaching us to be His children. Model Him.

God bless.

RIF I truly appreciate your insight,just like with CJ, Gimble et al.

I recognise this as a dilemma - hence my posting up the question.

I didn't expect to be accused to starting an EA with this wretched woman though I will admit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I cannot state more clearly that I already have. Our agreement is only to share schedule data, but I will not deny that the 'intel' I get regarding OMs take on the A is very very useful too.

And yes, I am sad for her - my wife has helped to cause her huge pain - but I am not at risk of an EA with her.

In truth she hurts me when she slates Squid to me ( as she must) but I have tolerated this in support of my greater good - to help NC and my insight into the affair.

I have told squid since expsire of every contact with OM GF. She has even been present while I took one call. To put it in context OM GF has called me three times since I exposed with proof. Once per month for about ten minutes.

This time Squid said it hurts her to know this woman talks to me, she feels like we are raking over her faults (true for OM GF in any case) and that ongoing contact with her, however rare just shotens teh distance we have made in many ways since d-day. And on cosideration of her comments and help from here I agree.

To share other than NC information is disrespectful and unneccesary. I will forgo my source of A anecdotes in support of Squid's self-respect.

But until Squid absolutely forsakes refereeing and tournaments she stands to meet OM at almost every tournament. The new season restarts in February.

I will explain to squid that while she knowingly risks contact with OM I must keep abreast of his schedule to warn her if he will be attending.

Then if squid goes anyway...well...I can;t see me stayingaround for many of those.

I will then be forced FIRST to destroy OMs sport career thorugh exposure ( and also Squids reputation in the sport) risking OMs recovery and our own recovery too.

Until Squid forsakes tournaments or we find another way to maintain NC I MUST share OMs schedule while I am able to.
Squid and OM are not trustworthy enough to maintain NC yet.

Can't you all see that? It would be STUPID of me to have faith in a pair of unreconstructed infidels to stay NC yet.

SO I will scale down the contact to an exchange of diaries only while there is a risk of NC violation through the sport.

* FH thats a lovely missive as ever. And I am trusting more and more in God, I truly am - one day I will write up my witness of God's interventions in my situation - but I do not translate 'faith' as meaning ' complete inaction'.

I pray each day and again when deciding to act in this recovery.

I am reminded of the story of the priest trapped on a roof in a terrible flood. A boat came by and offered rescue. The priest shouted " I have prayed for the Lord to save me , be on your way".

Shortly a helicopter came by, hovering and dropping down a line. "The priest shouted " I have prayed for the Lord to save me , be on your way" once again. The rain returned.


Just as the water reached the priests nose, a dolphin swam by and offered his fin in support. The priest waved him away and gurgled to his doom.

Later that day in Heaven the priest met Jesus.

" Why did you not rescue me Lord?" begged the priest.

" What do you mean ?" asked Jesus, " I sent a boat, a helicopter and even a Dolphin, what else did you want me to do ???"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Funny but you get my point. God does not only help supernaturally IME.

It would be actively delinquent of me to stop this useful wource of NC police intel.

Sorry so many of you disagree. I have, and will continue to pray about this and every other issue regarding recovery.

Thanks all

{{{{MB}}}}

Sounds like a good plan to me Bob.

Noodle

I agree with CJ though..not seeing a recovery plan. So I don't consider you in recovery. My concept of recovery is very specific..Squid hasn't met any of the criteria aside from the cease and desist of the active A..which was not her choosing.

Therefore in my opinion..POJA does not apply. Until this time..I think what you have outlined probably IS the best you can do to both insure unexposed NC and take Squids feelings into consideration.

Noodle

Mr.B Pure:
At least from what you've shared here, it doesn't sound like your crossing any imaginary line into "impropriety"...IMO.

As long as these "contacts" are intermittent and stay on the topic, I think you are Wise to let them continue.

I sense nothing (from your posts) that indicate that that you and OMGF are forming some type of attachment.
On the contrary, you are simply keeping an alliance (that I might say has been working) by keeping one another "informed" about matters that could effect you both.

As always, I'm sure all advice sent your way is well intended.

However, keep in mind of MUCH of the advice that was Given to you that DIDN'T want you to be in Contact with the GF at Any Point.
(Remember all the " its a bad idea" and "it won't do any good" and "it could make things worse" posts you got) when you asked if you should contact GF and expose.
I think much of this advice is coming in the same vein. Its well intended.....but its missing the mark.

YOU and OM GF have done nothing Wrong (except come together to hasten the END of an A).
Indeed, There Are NOT the same rules of NC for 2 persons that have never had either an emotional or physical connection.

Will contact end at some point. Of course!
But that time is when YOU are ready for it.

Fortunately, At this stage of your recovery.....there are still certain areas that you must make the final decisions on.

While your W is still in the Fog/withdrawl stage, your First Goal is to ensure (as much as is humanly possible) the NC policy .
[As this is what will eventually get her back 100%]
Because as I'm sure you've read, all it TAKES is one little slip.

If a little POJA must suffer (on this point) to ensure that, well no plan is perfect.

In addition, how much can we rely on someone's opinion that is still in withdrawal?
(even if it is less then it has been?)

That's right, not much.
So IMO your making the correct decisions here.

I mean only 3 times, once a month for ten minutes about schedules??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
This is Not a problem, but an asset.

IMO your only using due diligence by using any and all resources at your disposal to ensure the survival of your M.
You seem to understand both its importance ......but also when the situation will necessitate an ending to contact.

I believe YOU ARE seeing things clearly.

As long as you keep your own boundaries intact and are above board with your W on the contact......this is not only good for your piece of mind, but for your recovery.

Someday you'll be able to let it go, but that time has NOT come quite yet.

Although I understand the reasons for the Warnings.....I believe you've already recognized the potential pitfalls and are therefore prepared to deal with them.
Continued Success! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

My concept of recovery is very specific..Squid hasn't met any of the criteria aside from the cease and desist of the active A

What are they noodle ? Help me.

I don't know what MY definition of recovery is either so yours would help me immensely. Stopping the A was like wrestling the bear. Now it's dead what the heck to I do now?

Thanks !