Squid's old friend in Karate died tragically a coupla days ago. His funeral is on Thursday. Now I don't know if OM is going - he may be as both were honcho's of the sport, albeit different parts of the sport.

Now I have to ask OM GF if he's going and if he IS I need to arrange to take a day off work to chaperone squid etc etc....

* sigh *

Is it going to be like this for ever ? Asking Squid to cease attending any event where there may be any chance of OM being there is literally asking her to give up half of her social life and half her oldest friends.

Yet if I have to check OMs diary to make arrangements prior to every one its going to kill our recovery - I just won't do it. Its too traumatic. Now squid has said (very reluctantly) that she will give up refereeing ( we'll see if she still means it when an opportunity manifests itself - actually thats unfair, there was a tourney last weekend and she refused to go without even telling me).

But do I really expect her to give up something and some people who have NOTHING to do with the A that she has known half her life just in case OM is there ?

She could not have picked a worse sport NC risk to have an A with - in fact his ubiquity led to their ea/PA - he was ALWAYS there like a bad smell at every frickin' event. He has no job so tax free money for refereeing is his life. eshows up to as many events as he can.

Trouble is I refuse to feel like this every time theres a sport event. We have been doing good lately, but today I'm sad over this. Maybe we hven;t been doing as well as I thought.

Perhaps I'm being unfair - the funeral of an old friend is not a karate event, its a life event.

I dunno what to do for the best but i can't go on through life like this.It makes me want to destroy OM by reporting his illegal and immoral ctivities to the various charities and sport bodies he 'works' for. That would stop him attending these events BUT it would also destroy him utterly and his GF would have no reason to respect him then - she told me that when she asked me not to do that.

* sigh *

Hard stuff, but I can't have them meeting.

Any "lifers" got any advice about this?

Thanks

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Read what this FWH has to say... he's very VERBOSE ... but damn ... 2Oak's always readable and always honest and always interesting and no "nice talk" ... just reality.

He has a lot to say and just SAYS it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


2ofaKind ... on recovery

Pep

Well..I did. It was one of my conditions last Feb.

Were there people in the prior social group who were entirely uninvolved with any wrongdoing? Sure, there probably were.

Did H have to willingly sacrifice ALL of his social activities until he had made new friends that I approved of? Yes, and he was very lonesome during that time.

It left him with no support, no peer group..no nothing. He was under the gun and ridiculed at his place of work with no one to stand by him accept for me..and I wasn't welcome there very often.

It really and truly sucked for him and I probably took an axe to many good people who would never have willingly harmed our relationship. And you know what? I don't give a flying [censored]. I had an enormous crisis on my hands, a FWS who was repentant but sinking nonetheless into the same activities that allowed him to be a WS in the first place and I by GOD took a shotgun approach and I have never regretted it, not once.

Activities are only that. They can be replaced. Marriages are just a little more complex and come at a much steeper price. You have said more than once that her hobby contributed in a large way..that it provided the motive and the means for an affair to flourish. What more do you need to consider?

I think if she is willing, take her up on it..she can find a new social set, people do it all the time. It is, in my opinion, the very least she can do.

Noodle

Hard stuff.

I'll see how she responds to this funeral challenge. I have a day off work with her on Monday where we are decorating our dining room together. I hope we can talk then.

I think an unpleasant discussion is needed.

I have told her when a NC violation threat wa sprsented that it would be a deliberate and knowing hurt to me and that I would have to reconsider my efforts within this M recovery in view of that.

So far she has backed down every time - voluntarily refused to go to tournaments etc.

I will have to contact OM GF and find out if OM is attending this fienral. If so I will have to attend also OR warn him off.

I am tired of this cloak and dagger sh1t, why can't Squid just place my safety at the top of her priority list for once and pack in all NC threats?

I have been so far down the list for so long I think she has forgotten how to do it.

Much work and unpleasant discussion to have.

BP

These sound like some hard times for you, BUT you have weathered so many horrific storms already, this "shower" will not be the end of your recovery. Your obvious frustrations are evident. Perhaps after a brooha with your FWW you will feel better. If anyone can get through this, you can. Goodluck.

The fact that it is *backing down* makes it next to worthless..it sort of a sulky "oh if you're going to twist my arm" kind of stance.

I was ready to walk . Seriously, pregnant even. He knew that the party was over. Either he get some serious skin into making this right whatever it takes or congratulations on your single status.

So far, she hasn't done this..but recall that my H wasn't ready until almost fully a year from the end of his A..by that time of course I was so far beyond ready it boggles the mind. Could I have done it earlier..well, honestly I wish I had..I just don't know what the reaction would have been. Fog thinking is a very real phenomenon. She really might need some time to extract her head from her coccyx. I really don't know. What I do know is that at some point..when she is 100% in this marriage..this activity will likely need to be out, and she will not need much convincing. It's always a gamble..the timeframe is up to you.

Noodle

A friend of my FWH died suddenly last year and we chose not to go to the funeral because FOW would have probably been there. Also, many of the people involved in the sport who also condoned the A would have attended as well.

I brought the question here and most agreed that NC for life meant just that. So we sent a card, plant, and donation to a charity they had designated instead of attending and the possibility of breaking NC.. It is difficult but it is just one of those consequences of the A.

I say: she shouldn't go for herself and for you.
It wouldn't be safe for her to possibly see OM.
I believe your current state of recovery could suffer some.

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Trix ]</small>

Hey BP,

Here are my thoughts.....of course, for what their worth, coming from a FWW......

This, to me, seems like another POJA issue (aren't you getting really tired of that word? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ). Some questions need to be answered before you can really make a decision....

1) Does Squid wish to go to this funeral to grieve the loss of her friend, and to pay her respects?
2) If you were to go to the funeral, and OM was there, would you be able to emotionally handle that? (and this is a very valid question - you are still early yet in recovery)
3) Do you have a day to take off?

My thoughts are this. If Squid wishes to go, then it would probably mean a lot to her if you were to accompany her.....regardless of whether or not you suspect OM to be there. It might be nice for you to be there for her in her time of sadness. That is **IF** you can handle it emotionally, and have a day to take off.

**IF** you cannot handle it emotionally, or do NOT have a day to take off, then discuss with her, and the two of you work together to find a suitable alternative to her going. Perhaps something like Trix mentioned.

BP - There are consequences to A's - and perhaps one of them will be that she does not get to go to the funeral. She is already paying the consequences by her refusals to go to tournaments.

However, recovery is also what you make it. You also have a chance to face the demon together. But only if you both feel strong in your committment to each other. There will be no greater deterrent to OM than knowing you are both happy having found love with each other again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

A lot of people on this board have different approaches to recovery. Yours will be unique as well. Know your limits. Get Squid to talk about her feelings, and where she is. You do not need to pressure her, but give her a safe and open forum for her to express her thoughts.

---> The one thing I see is that you and Squid are having difficulty when it comes to relationship or A talk. This to me sends some warning signals. She will need to learn to speak about her feelings about the A, where she is with her feelings toward you, how she feels about herself, how she feels about OM (I know....this one may hurt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ), and how she feels about the direction of your M. You both seem to have good times together, and you (individually) seem to be making extraordinary strides to recovery. But there seems to be an avoidance of R and A talk.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Seems to me like almost all those feelings are still hidden. Perhaps you could ask her what you could do to make her more comfortable in talking about those things with you. Likewise, let her know that you want to be able to share your feelings with her, also....and when you do, you are not berating her or trying to remind her of the guilt, but rather just sharing your thoughts and your feelings to the one person you want to confide in most.

I think one of the most difficult concepts in recovery is the concept of giving - even when it hurts . Both spouses suffer pains of their own....the BS suffers the pain of being wronged by the person they loved and trusted the most. The WS suffers the pain of degrading themselves, disrespecting their M, their S, and their own morals, and finally, the pain of knowing how much they hurt the one person they loved the most.

Yet in the face of this pain, we must continue to give. And we must give not because we are being weak , but because we are demonstrating our love. We must remember to rebuild that love, respect, and trust.... in each other.

You can do this, BP. So can Squid. And you can do this while respecting each other's boundaries and feelings. Yes, there will be some compromises....but the end result will be worth those small sacrifices. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

___________________________________________________________

On a separate note, I would like you to know that you will not have to "police" NC forever. As Squid furthers her individual recovery, she will distance herself from her feelings for OM. And as this happens, NC will be a personal choice of hers.....not just something to respect your wishes. She will begin to realize that she was not a "healthy" person during the A, and that the relationship with OM was a R between two "unhealthy" individuals. And it would not have survived.

However, her relationship and M with you would be re-established on a foundation of rebuilding healthy, strong, committed partners. A foundation that has been strengthened, and is stronger as a result.

My OM contacted me by e-mail about 2 weeks ago. First time in about 1.5 years. My H and I are divorcing. Had I really wanted, I could have written him back. I could have contacted him again. I could have tried to restart the A - after all, I'm in a pretty nasty, miserable place with regards to my M.

But this time, I have changed. I no longer wish to be with an unhealthy individual. Nor do I wish to bring pain to anyone else, degrade my morals, or live in a world of deceit and lies. And all of this is something I decided for myself.

There is hope......please don't despair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> . Squid needs to embark on her own recovery path. And she needs to share that path with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

As always, JMVHO.

Bob –
I just want to say I think L.I.T. gave you excellent advice and I agree with her observations.

L.I.T. –
It’s clear that you’ve grown a lot through your experiences and circumstances. I’m glad you are such a strong person now who can make the right & mature choices in spite of your continuous difficult circumstances. Good for you and keeping it up at MBers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I hope one day you and your H can reconcile...

Blessings,
Suzet

Dear Bob,

I think time will be the healer here.

We had to give up most of our social life to establish NC as OW and her H were a couple we spend a lot of time with.

My H didn't understand why NC would be necessary. It would in fact mean giving up two of his hobbies and he didn't like that. It hurt me terribly that he would put his own selfish needs for "fun" before my needs (again) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

But I gradually realised WS don't realise the full extend of what they have done, of the pain they have caused, of the paranoia, the price of the trust that was lost.

Because - nobody lied to THEM. Nobody cheated on THEM. Nobody was having secrets for them. OP and the BS didn't hurt them, weren't disrespectful to them.

It takes time for most WS to come to realise the full extend of the damage they have done to the M, to their S and to themselves.

My H thought I would "get over it". He thought OW (who was my BF) was a really nice person, who really wanted to be BF with me again, who really regretted what she had done.

I actually gave him (and her) the wrong signals about that, thinking I was the one who was over-sensitive, over-reacting etc. But that's another story.

When I suggested NC my H objected because he didn't understand the need for it. And I needed him to understand - otherwise how could I trust him to stick to NC?

After 7 months I finally put my foot down. I requested NC and OW agreed, relieved in fact that I set my boundaries. My H agreed because I made it clear how important it was to me and because he wanted me to be happy, so it was for the right reasons.

Let time be the healer here, dear Bob. Defogging is a process. Avoiding all A-related talks will make recovery harder I think, but pushing too hard will do the same. So in a way it's like talking to anyone who was traumatised - not avoiding the subject so it will not rot under the carpet, but not slapping them in the face with it, either.

Bob

I think LIT has nailed it!

If Squid wants to go to the funeral then YOU should take her if at all possible & be with her regardless of the OM.

This is a very real and important opporuntity to be there with her Bob and it WILL be remembered in a big way, even if the fog is blowing in now & then.

In time you will BE all the purpose of her decisions, she won't even have to think about it.

Hi, Bob.

The dead likely don't know who attends their funeral.

Unless family is involved, the attendance sounds like an opportunity to see the other man again. I don't think that your Squidy is to the point that she realizes the full extent of what she has done. That disqualifies her judgment for just about everything - ESPECIALLY where the other man may be involved.

Her entire karate involvement is eventually going away as it must. She made the bad choices. These are part of the consequences. A child would face no less.

There is no real controversy here, you don't go unless it is family.

My opinion.
Gimble

We talked about NC and recovery for hours today.
Squid feels I want to prevent her reffing and attending torunaments and atteding NC-violation risk 'venets' like this funeral out of spite or a punisment. She genuinely thought I will have to trust her to mete him without continuing her Affair with him some time in the future.

YOU ALL must understand she does not understand the dynamics of affairs as we do AND Karate has been her social life for 24 years.

I explained my position very fully today, and so did she. I said that AT THE EVERY LEAST it would be hurtful and disresepectful the expect me to baby sit while she met with her lover in aplatonic mode NOT EVEN TO MENTION the near certainly of the A rekindling.Squid says shes strong enough and regretful enough for that to never happen again. I reminder he rthat she 'never intended' for it to happen first time.
Regarding this funeral I don;t think it is to meet OM. Fact is if she wanted to do that she could do so any day I'm at work and I'd never know.

Her behaviour certainly does not indicate that.

We exchanged some heart truths today, some of them were hurtful to me but necessary.

The NC issue isn't resolved yet but the topic is open now.

I need to find a way to explain how critically important NC is without it feeling like I am being spiteful to her.

Also, Gimble, YES theres still SOME fog. She still clearly thinks OM was/is a decent sort who would not hit on her again.

That alone is a good reason to try to prevent contact.

In this case I have faxed OM GF and asked if he is attending teh funeral. If NOT we have a breath of air to deal with NC before the tournament season starts again. If SO I will need to book the day off to attend with Squid and hopefully get through the day without beating the sh1t out of him,which is far from certainly possible.


BTW all, we have lots of R disscussion, but many or most are too personal to post up here. BUT neither do we only discuss the R.

So soon into recovery I feel that consistency is key. Theres always a few words to a full discussion every day of a R topic, but only oocasionally a day like today full of such discussion.I will raise the possibility of one of my FWW frinds on here to email her to start her learning cycle about the dynamics of affairs and rebuilding so she knows its not just my caprice.

I'm ok with this, really, its just another hurdle after so many other hurdles. I hope we can work it out like the others.

Thanks all !

I remember Dr. Willard Harley stating that there needs to be NC for life. One reason is that what attracted them in the first place can be rekindled just be being in their presence. Feelings can resurface....even if there is no intention going into it.

I believe he may state that himself in SAA. I wish Squid would agree to read that...to be open minded to that...especially since she is not in favor of counseling.

She really does need to be educated about A's and how they happen...how she allowed herself to have one, and what she needs to do to recover. If she'd read SAA then the info wouldn't just be coming from you.

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Trix ]</small>

Trix I agree.

I am really split over my next actions. Yes, Squid is doing well, loves me etc but her old ingrained selfishsness is still her ruling attribute.

SHE doesn't want to talk to MCs for fear of feeling slutty, so WE don't do it.
SHE doesn't want to read SAA so WE go without a shred understanding of the dynamics of affairs.
SHE wants to still attend all kinds of NC-violation events so I have to tear my guts up every time contacting ON GF for OMs schedule.

etc etc

She hasn't violated NC yet, but she says " its inevitab;le that our pathw will cross someday".

WHY is it? If it were ME I'd move heaven and earth to ensure I never met OP agaain yet her selfishness means she can't countenance giving up tournaments.

* sigh *

Will we REALLY quit recovery and maybe divorce over this? I won't live like this. I've lived with her selfishness for too, too long.

I keep thinking I couldn't let the kids suffer a divorce over what is essentially a 'niggle' but it sa very important principle. It is deeply and knowingly disrespectful and hurtful to me to contact OM: Ihave told her this yet she seems to still plan tournaments etc.

I need to work out what the consequence will be of her continuing tournaments. Problem is I amnot sure what they will be yet. WIll I REALLY make my kids home break up where Mom and Dad love each other over karate?
* sigh *

Bob Pure,

Hi Guy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Okay....Im not a LIFER yet!! LOL... But here goes!

Squid made a horrible mistake/ she not only chose to betray you Bob, she chose to do it with someone who is in her social circle.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But my opinion??? TOO BAD! She must now abide by the NUMBER one rule after DD....N/C! PERIOD.
May be our Spouses should have "thought" it out before picking the people they did!(WOW wouldn't that be something??? a WS who thought about the the repercussions before hand?? If they thought that it would EFFECT them and their life, OF COURSE THEY WOULD!!)

Now Bob, If Squid would have had an A with your Best Friend, Would you still have him as a best friend or a friend??? (Now that would be the day huh???)Life After the A is NOT FAIR!! If Squid thinks it's not fair for her? What does she think it is for you?


NO CONTACT is NOT negotiable Bob! And for you to take a "day" off so she can go "show up"...FORGET IT! Your days off are hard earned, Squid needs a reality check in that it is NOT all about HER!

She needs to send a card of condolense and a plant and be done with it! N/C is NO contact!!

Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ATH I agree but how can I influence Squid to behave so uninstinctively ?

" If you continue to risk NC violations I will....." I will WHAT exactly ? Say I will change the locks?

I already tell her how much it will hurt me. So far she has not taken the hurtful path but still harbours hopes of attending future competitions.

Now I do not expect much sympathy for her here BUT I have let her get away with MURDER all her life. Some of this is my fault.

She has almost always gotten her own way : I have avoided conflict, shown my disappoval and let her do what she wanted pretty much.
She does not KNOW HOW to put my needs first. She must learn how it feels to dissappoint ones own wishes for the sake of a loved one's safety.

I've spent a lifetime doing that. Squid must start NOW, but how to teach an adult how to be less selfish ?

I think she needs to read SAA. She has dismissed all MC, books ,everything but that was when she was foggy.

Just to confirm - our lfe is not a disaster ! Squid has made and IS MAKING huge progress in personal recovery AND in starting to work on our M. She really loves me now - and fears I do not reciprocate.

She just needs to learn HOW to work on our M now I think.

I am not living in fear, and this is just another hurdle not a showstopper. I do feel clumsy and artless in this though - I am no MC and I have no certain path to take through this.

Strange times....

Bob,

Sometimes I feel exactly the same way you do. The OM in my case lives with his mother which is 2 miles from my W's workplace...

I don't think either of us is at that point just yet, but someday, we will just have to let go and hope that we have influenced them to the point that they won't mess up again.

I will make sure from now on that all my wife's EN are met to the best of my ability, I will be the husband she deserves. If she messes up again, it will probably be the end of the line for me, but in that event, I will know that I did all I could and will not feel any guilt at all.

Like you said, they could break NC anytime they really want and we would never know..

Bob,

I wrote this last night.....after a very long day. It does sound a bit harsh! Im sorry for that!

Okay........I think what I really want to ask, is Have you missed the oppurtunity yet to say that NC is mandatory??

Most here do that during the first few days or weeks after Discovery....I mean that is IF the partner wants to try save the M.

Did this not come up yet....For me Bob, it was NUMBER 1 on my list when deciding if I would stay and work on the M. And my H heard it!!! a few thousand times by now.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I guess I wrote out of my own emotions and I did sound a bit off even to me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Also Bob, my H does a lot things now that didn't necessarily "feel natural" to him before discovery. I really feel that if a S wants to save the M, they must do things that don't feel natural to them! Like NC!!

I am a FIRM believer in this part of MBers foundation !!! NC is a must and C in ANY WAY is to me a deal breaker...

I think diff. may be that personally it was the ONE thing I did POJA in the very beginning of R, Had he NOT agreed, I may have made a diff. decision on my M. I just assume that all BS's do the same thing. (wrong I guess!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Sorry for having this STRONG opinion on the subject.....but It is what I believe to be the ONLY way a couple can R.

Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Bob,

I think what may be happening here..is that you are fast approaching the "jumping off place". The place where she either officially commits to the marriage and agrees to your terms for rebuilding [lifelong NC, MB building, becoming knowledgable about the dynamics of affairs and healthy marriages] or you have decided that it is so long Pickadilly, goodbye Liechester square. You don't like this line in the sand..but you feel you can't live without it.

So rather than approach it directly [because you fear having her willingness or lack thereof essentially force your hand] you are trying to influence her from the backround. This is pre-A behavior..the sort where you wring your hands and she stomps gaily all over you. Not. Any. Longer.

She is an adult. If you respect her as such..be clear, direct, up front about what you expect, and let her make her own choices.

If she wants to remain and rebuild..it will have to be a conscious choice..not a default. She will have to say essentially Bob..I want this marriage, and I will do what it takes to restore it. Without that..I fear you will always wonder if you were just too convenient to leave. You deserve better than that.

Up 'till now..the only person she has assumed might be leaving was her ..to go live out her fairy tail. The idea that you might leave..that you might say..sorry, not good enough..will shock the life out of her..hopefully in all the right directions.

Noodle

[to too two <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ]

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>