believer, thanks for the prayers and the faith.

tqt, of course I would yell at you if you asked a question out of line! Good grief.

Actually, you asked some very good questions. As of tonight, my H is pretty sure what has come up for him. He wants to have a friendship with a woman. He wants to be an adult, and make his own decisions, and have a friendship with a person of the opposite sex. A close friendship. And not feel guilty, or ashamed, or inappropriate, or judged.

I think one thing that is really good about this place (MB) is that it teaches ways to set boundaries and rules to make people in a M feel safe with each other. And there is a time and place for this, IMO. I think my H and I have outgrown these rules. I think we are ready to be integrous with each other, open and honest, and to act in ways that honor ourselves, each other, and the M.

I know some of you will think I have flipped my lid. Or maybe think I am putting down a system that really works for you. This system worked for me for a long time. It was a way for my H and I to establish trust and integrity with each other again. For us to have a very safe environment to reconnect and learn to talk to each other again. It has been imperative in the place I have arrived at now.

The more I set my H free to his own devices, the closer he comes to me. This thing that seemed like a cataclysmic event is turning out to be one of the most powerful learning curves and growth spurts we have had since the A.

Everything I have asked for lately, the Universe has given me in this well-disguised package. My H and I are closer than ever. We are already in Chapter 2 of Passionate Marriage! And we are talking and loving and feeling, and it is wonderful.

And no matter what happens anyway, I know I am going to be just fine ~ I learned that last time. I am really excited about what is coming for us. Please, nobody worry about me. I really think I know what I am doing, and if I don't, then my H doesn't either, and I guess we'll just live forever in La-La Land together. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

***He wants to have a friendship with a woman. He wants to be an adult, and make his own decisions, and have a friendship with a person of the opposite sex. A close friendship. And not feel guilty, or ashamed, or inappropriate, or judged.***

Fine. In the real world, this is a perfect description of Being Single. In the real world, married people do not behave like this.

***I think one thing that is really good about this place (MB) is that it teaches ways to set boundaries and rules to make people in a M feel safe with each other. And there is a time and place for this, IMO. I think my H and I have outgrown these rules. I think we are ready to be integrous with each other, open and honest, and to act in ways that honor ourselves, each other, and the M.***

Spidey, I have seen interviews with women whose husbands have pressured them into accepting arrangements like "swinging" and "open marriage."

You sound exactly like those women. "Well, as long as we are open and honest and mature with each other, and set certain rules, we can make it work, we are so different and special that it won't hurt OUR relationship, blah, blah, blah . . . "

. . . and the ever-popular, "well . . . he's going to do it anyway, so isn't it better if I know about it?"

Yours is a very, very sad situation. Your husband has bullied and brainwashed you into accepting an open marriage. "Polyamory" is just another term for "free to screw around and still come home to the wife when I feel like it" and you know that as well as we all do.

Are you really okay with this?

Do you really want an open marriage? That's what HE wants and that's what he's pressuring you into accepting.

Do you plan to let your families know that you have agreed to this and that you no longer have a traditional marriage? If not, why not? You celebrated your traditional marriage. Why not celebrate your new Open Marriage?

Why would you go along with this? Is it what you dreamed of as a young girl when you thought of falling in love and getting married?

Or are you so terrified of losing your home and husband completely that you would accept the devil's bargain of an open marriage?

Spidey, I am very, very sad for you today. You are opening up a can of worms here that will only get far worse than anything you have experienced.

I hope you will get some serious help to help you understand why you feel you have no choice here. You DO have a choice. You don't have to take whatever marital terrorism that WH dishes out.

I feel very, very sad for you today.
Mulan

Spidey - How are you doing? You are really worrying me. Do you really believe allowing your H (WH?) to have EA's with OW is going to bring you closer together? Reread your post but make believe it isn't you, it's another poster. What advice would you give that poster? I'm worried you are trying to avoid the hurt and pain that goes with admitting your H is having an A because you know how hard, painful and hurtful it is. Ignoring it or calling it something else isn't going to help. My prayers are with you.

Mulan, please don't be sad for me. I am definately not agreeing to an open M. That is something I know for sure that I don't want.

I have agreed to my H openly having a friendship with a female coworker. He has allowed me to view all their communication, he tells me about their conversations (which are mostly about work, occassionally about their kids). I am being supportive of him learning about himself.

Deceit and betrayal only happen in the darkness of secrecy and lies. That's not what is happening here.

If, down the line, H feels the need to become more than friends with this woman, we will disolve our M. I know I will be OK either way ~ I learned that last time. I am not afraid of this. Instead of reacting and sqashing down his feelings and becoming destructive, like during the A, he is being open and honest about how he is feeling.

Feelings are just feelings. It is whether they are acted upon that matters. My H is very clear about my boundaries, and he isn't going to just not tell me something because he knows I don't want to hear it. I think THAT is dangerous.

So no, Mulan, no open M in Spidey's M. I will not keep this union at any cost. After what happened last time, I know exactly what I will and will not accept. Yes, it is scary that he is cultivating a friendship with a female. Because he could develop romantic feelings for her, and feel he needs to act on those feelings. However, he knows that if he begins feeling that way, we need to begin our separation process.

I am letting him choose his own path. Depending on where he goes with it, is whether or not I can follow.

Spidey

I know how hurtful it would be if that did happen, H have another A. But right now, it is just a friendship.

I am not going to stop him from having a friendship ~ I can't stop him, actually. Now, I could choose out of our M right now, because of the possibility that that friendship could become more. Or I could stick around and see what happens. Right now, H thinks he just wants to be friends with her. He still wants to tell me about their conversations when they have them, if they go to lunch, etc. Nothing is happening in secret.

I know many of you don't understand. I guess you have to just believe that I am not a fool, that I don't live in denial, and that even if I am wrong and he is blowing smoke up my *ss (which I don't believe he is), I am going to be just fine.

We are in MC with our old MC that worked with us for 8 months. H has been seeing him since October for IC. I don't think H would have lied to this man the entire time, and I know this MC would not allow my H to mislead me on purpose.

I still appreciate the prayers, though! I am outside of my comfort zone with this, but that is OK.

Spidey

It sounds like you are going to allow him to [color:"red"]*play with fire*[/color] so to speak as long as you know about it.

Scary Spidey, very scary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> That lack of boundaries with females would scare me to death.

Susan

It is very scary for me, Susan. But it is what he feels very strongly about. I can either leave now, or wait. I am choosing to wait. For now. Each day is a struggle. But I truly know, no matter how this turns out, that I am going to be just fine. I really, truly am. It will hurt. But I am young, smart ~ I have everything I need to be succesful in my life. I know he will support me and the boys to stay in our home, he loves the boys and will spend as much time as he can with them ~ and I know he loves me and will help me however he can.

If he cannot function happily in a monogomous relationship, I want to know now. I don't want him squashing it down until it blows up in my face ~ again ~ in the form of betrayal and secrets and deceit.

We are in MC with a trusted counselor. I feel like I have boundaries up as it is. H is volunteering to keep me informed of things that I haven't asked about. And my "sluething, or sloothing, however it is spelled" has turned up nothing unexpected. True, he could be very good at hiding, since he knows kind-of what I would be looking for, but I just don't think that is where his head is at.

Spidey

Oh, Spidey . . . I have never seen a woman more in denial than you are.

What does your WH suggest you do while he is enjoying lunch with his female "friend"? Read a book? Go to a movie? Sit by yourself and wait for him? Find a man who actually wants to be with YOU?

Again, you sound exactly the women who have been pressured into Open Marriages - and make no mistake, that IS what you have agreed to. The saddest part of all is when they keep saying, "But there are no secrets! I know about everything that's going on! As long as there are no secrets, it will be okay!"

Which is exactly what you are saying, too.

And when these women found out that their WHs *of course* were not truthful with them -- as in, of course there was sex involved even when the WHs said there was not, or that there were more partners than were admitted to -- these poor women were *shocked* that their men could deceive them that way.

***If he cannot function happily in a monogomous relationship, I want to know now.***

He's already told you, and shown you, that no, he cannot function happily in a monogamous relationship.

What are you waiting for? A 30-foot-tall billboard with that message on it?

Please don't do this. Maybe you, like Cherished, are just waiting for him to be the one to end it so you don't have to. But you deserve better. You are setting yourself up for terrible pain and humilation. Haven't you had enough of those?
Mulan

Well Spidey, you know I have faith in you and your decisions. But I do hope that OW's husband knows about this relationship, with the supernatural bond or whatever crap they were spouting. I also hope that he knows that you and your husband are in recovery from his affair last year.

IMVHO, Spidey, the most important thing is to be honest with yourself.
And take it from there.

Of course, the only way that could work is to remember (and believe) the fact that you're a class act... and worthy and deserving of so much more than you're getting.
Are you doing that, as you process all this???

Personally, I think having a good friend of the opposite sex is normal, healthy, even desirable -- but maybe some people can't handle it appropriately(?)
But from what you've said, simply "having a good friend of the opposite sex" is not what's going on.

You're going thru He11, Spidey. Not the best time and place to make decisions on anything, is it?? IOW, is there some way you can position your heart/brain/etc to take a step back for a little bit, and give yourself some time before applying that incredible determination of yours? Allow yourself to be in limbo over the situation for a little longer, before convincing yourself in what direction you should go... AND... want to go? (the should's and want-to's have to be in synch, I think...)

Well, I guess I cannot post about what is going on in my life on these boards. I could be making a mistake. I could be doing something that WILL save my M ultimately. All I am doing is waiting to see what happens. I cannot force my H to do anything he doesn't want to do.

It is hard enough for me to hold this space that takes a LOT of courage and faith ~ both in my H and myself. I cannot keep coming here getting bashed over the head with how stupid you all think I am.

I happen to know from each of you that there were sitches you handled much differently than I ever would have. But I told you my concerns, and then supported your decisions. I guess that is what I was looking for ~ and obviously am not going to get.

I think I will just contain myself to safer waters.

Peace to you all.

Spidey

Spidey - I'm sorry you feel this way. I think we are all just very worried about you. But I truly do have confidence in your decisions. You have proven yourself to be a remarkable woman.

Spidey,
Yes, you have.
And yes, we're all just very worried about you.

With me, you argued with me and disagreed with me (yes, in a concerned, caring way), and tried really hard to understand where I was coming from. And then once you understood, you still offered your support, even though you didn't agree with me.
I think what you're getting now is the first part -- everyone is just trying to understand.
It's safe here. Toss out the things that don't make sense to you. But please don't disappear.

Spidey, no one here thinks you are stupid! We care about you and are worried that your H is taking you for a ride. Here is my take on it and please understand that I am posting as both a FWW and a BS three times over (I think).

My A began as a friendship with a co-worker. We knew each other a long time and my mistake was as my H pulled farther away I relied more and more on this OM to fill me until the day I stepped waaay over the line and told him I had feelings for him. The A lasted nearly two years until I realized the horror of what I had done. Cut to today and the tight boundaries I have in place in my life ON MY OWN...I have a co-worker that I have lunch with occasionally. I like him and consider him a friend to a degree. However..whenever I find myself feeling too close to him I pull back and don't have lunch with him for weeks or even months and it is no big deal. Why? Because I keep those boundaries in place. I experienced crossing the line and I know better than to ever express feelings, feelings that may come and go as they do in humans, to a person of the opposite sex. That is the boundary your H crossed that we are concerned with. Not that he wants to be friends with this woman, but that he already crossed the line by telling her he has feelings for her. Please don't go away, Spidey. We want to support you as you have supported so many. We care.

OK, I will attempt to explain this again. I know some of my posts in earlier days were very emotional, and you can cut and paste my own words back to me ~ but this is how I am feeling today, with all the information I have so far, including our MC appointment.

First of all, my H and I are not pulling away. He is not seeking out this friendship because we are not doing well. Second, my H told her he felt a bond with her, and that he isn't sure what that means. He is now beginning to believe, after getting a whole lot of buried feelings outside of himself, that he just wants her as a friend.

Which, if you understand how tightly I am capable of holding onto rules and regulations (tqt), you will know that for him to admit just that 18 months ago could have sent me to D court. I think he was feeling so bound by all my rules and regulations ~ which he always supported me, but didn't think they were necessary ~ that he pushed himself WAAAAY over to the other side of M, into Individualism with the polyamory.

We are reading Passionate Marriage. We almost finished Chapter 2 last night. In it Schnarch talks about Differentiation. How each partner in a M should be their own selves, making decisions for their own selves. And that depending on how "fused" or emotionally intertwined the couple is, this can be more difficult. The more each person in a couple has Differentiation, the easier it is for them to accept these things from their partners.

Which is different than Individualism. Individualism would be that H's polyamory need supercedes our M. Differentiation would be he knows himself well, but he can sacrifice something in order for me to get what I want ~ and not feel trapped or that he's giving anything up.

It also talks about a M being a place not of safety and security, but of fear and stretching and growth. He says M shouldn't be a place to have childhood needs/hurts met or mended, it is a place for adult development ~ a lens through which to better see yourself and understand yourself and grow.

It is a very deep, broad meaning, and we are just now grasping it.

Schnarch says ~ that we humans are much more resilient than we give ourselves credit for. Everyone wants to point to bad experiences in their childhood or adulthood to say, "See, this is why I am the way I am."

Schnarch says to use those experiences to better understand ourselves in the NOW, to grow and mature. He says by healing the past in the present, we both heal old wounds, and move ahead, all at the same time.

I guess that is the difference for me and my H right now. Instead of saying ~ Because this A happened, we are now going to make our worlds smaller with rules and regulations, we are saying ~ Because of everything we learned from the A, we have more tools and better understanding so that each of us can live the biggest life we possibly can.

Honestly, it would hurt like you-know-what if my H decided he couldn't stay in a monogomous relationship with me. For lots of reasons ~ our family wouldn't be the same anymore, I would miss him, I still love him, I would feel disappointment in his decision. But unlike when I was a helpless child and couldn't take care of myself, I now know that I CAN take care of myself. And I know that there is a plan of happiness out there for me. I think it is with my H, exploring and growing our M. But it might not be.

I so want my H to feel the same way about our M as I do. And after reading Passionate Marriage, I realize that this is a very common, and very dangerous, feeling to have in M. And when I'm not in my fear, when Fat Sally isn't up, I am OK with our differences. But boy, Fat Sally wants him to think just the way I do, believe just the way I do, and if he doesn't, then he can leave! That is my Fat Sally.

Tomorrow is the 2nd anniversary of D-day, and the day he left us. And even though Fat Sally wants to say, "Oh, yeah, and see how far we've gotten! No where. He's just a cake-eater."

My REAL self, my authentic self, my self that does not speak/think/feel only in fear says, "Look how far we've come! Two years ago I was a very scared little girl in a woman's body, who thought I would die if my H left me. Now I know I will be OK with just me, that I am enough for me. And life is so full of possibilities."

Peace to you all, and I love you all, and I thank you all for calling me on the carpet and letting your concerns be known. Also know they are my concerns, that I battle with each day. But I am more than my fear.

Spidey

Yes, very true. I have read some of Passionate Marriage. Good book and you may call out Pep to help you with the book reading. I think I understand better where you are coming from Spidey. I think we all were very concerned that your H was using "honesty" to start an EA. Please remind him though that personal boundaries are very important not just for you but for him too.

Would I be me if I hadn't already reminded him of this at least a million times?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm telling you, I am NOT thin on rules and regs. And there is a time and a place for them.

I am doing everything I can to keep myself safe. I am listening with an open mind, I am speaking with an open heart (when Fat Sally isn't around to stop me), and we are going to MC.

tqt asked me in an earlier post why I trust this MC so much, and I forgot to answer. I guess I trust him because the last time we went to him, it seemed IMPOSSIBLE that we could save our M. I required OW gone from our lives forever, strict NC. H was convinced that he could maintain their friendship and be in our M ~ and if I coulndn't accept that, then he couldn't come back, because he had made promises and commitments to her. We were locked in a powerstruggle.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago. H wanted something that I was convinced I could not support. It seemed impossible to save our M. Yet here we are, so many more steps closer to a workable plan that we both feel OK about (don't get me wrong, I am still scared! And he is too, because he isn't sure what will come up for him when allowed to explore this freindship).

This MC seems to have the same opinions of Schnarch, in that the most dangerous thing to do in a M is to make decisions based on "the right thing." Making decisions based on what you think will make your partner happy is only short-term. Eventually, resentment and anger builds. And this comes out in many ways. Last time for me, it was an A. This time, it was the idea of polyamory ~ thankfully not acted on, just feelings.

I think living by strict rules works for a lot of people. I could live like that, maybe not very happily (based on the last 6 months for myself), because I CLING to rules. I think they will keep me safe. But there is no such thing as "safety." It truly is an illusion. Holding so tightly onto my rules before H's A caused a whole lot of hurt. And unfortunately, after the A, I began holding my rules closer and closer to my heart.

And my H tried to live that way. But he's just not happy in a box. And I don't know what that will mean for me, our M. But I certainly don't want to be with an unhappy man! All kinds of unpleasantness is bound to happen in that scenario. When I met him, over half his close friends were female, and he never had a romantic relationship with any of them.

We have moved and lived all over the world since we married. This is the longest we have ever lived in the same place ~ over 6 years. This is the longest I have EVER lived in the same place, my whole life. My H works in a building with almost all women, and gets along with them great. His mother is very social, his father is an *ss and very anti-social. H only has 2 close male friends, and he spends lots of time with them, as well.

Anyway, at some point I either have to trust him, or get a D. Because I am his W, not his Keeper or his Mother. And if this experience proves that he cannot/will not keep me safe, then he is not the man for me. To me, it is (almost) as simple as that.

Thanks again for your time and concern.

Spidey

Spidey - You know we love you right? We only wants whats best for you. We are all going to keep challenging you in a way that only a person on the outside can. We might not agree with you, but that's o-k, we don't have to agree. But we do support you, no matter what. So please don't stop posting because we can't understand the full situation.

Now my most important question, what are you doing about school? Please tell me you did not drop your classes and you will be starting next month.

Great news! Yes, we got the funding, and I am starting next month. I forgot to post that, and I kept meaning to.

YAY!

And thanks for your support, kloe.

Spidey

Oh good, Spidey. I really, really, really want you to continue your education. Maybe because I dropped out after 3 and a half years of college and never went back.