How is school going? You didn't even tell us what classes you are taking!

School is going great. This last week wes rough, because H was gone and me and the boys each got sick, but we made it through. I am taking . . . (drumroll) . . . Introduction to Logic, English 278 (which is literature from the Civil War to now), Introduction to Philosophy, Archaeology, and a one-credit hour psychology class. For a total of 13 credits.

When I am done this semester, I will basically have my Associates, with all but 2 requirements done in my Area courses. Then it's just my upper division psych classes that I'll need, with some electives.

The Logic and Philosophy classes have been helping me a lot lately with the things going on in my own life. Funny how the Universe provides for us where we are least expecting it!

Spidey

Spidey - Whew, I found it.

Does Divorce Make People Happy?
Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages

Call it the "divorce assumption." Most people assume that a person stuck in a bad marriage has two choices: stay married and miserable or get a divorce and become happier.1 But now come the findings from the first scholarly study ever to test that assumption, and these findings challenge conventional wisdom. Conducted by a team of leading family scholars headed by University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite, the study found no evidence that unhappily married adults who divorced were typically any happier than unhappily married people who stayed married.

Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.2

The research team used data collected by the National Survey of Family and Households, a nationally representative survey that extensively measures personal and marital happiness. Out of 5,232 married adults interviewed in the late Eighties, 645 reported being unhappily married. Five years later, these same adults were interviewed again. Some had divorced or separated and some had stayed married.

The study found that on average unhappily married adults who divorced were no happier than unhappily married adults who stayed married when rated on any of 12 separate measures of psychological well-being. Divorce did not typically reduce symptoms of depression, raise self-esteem, or increase a sense of mastery. This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income. Even unhappy spouses who had divorced and remarried were no happier on average than those who stayed married. "Staying married is not just for the childrens' sake. Some divorce is necessary, but results like these suggest the benefits of divorce have been oversold," says Linda J. Waite.

Why doesn't divorce typically make adults happier? The authors of the study suggest that while eliminating some stresses and sources of potential harm, divorce may create others as well. The decision to divorce sets in motion a large number of processes and events over which an individual has little control that are likely to deeply affect his or her emotional well-being. These include the response of one's spouse to divorce; the reactions of children; potential disappointments and aggravation in custody, child support, and visitation orders; new financial or health stresses for one or both parents; and new relationships or marriages.

The team of family experts that conducted the study included Linda J. Waite, Lucy Flower Professor of Sociology at the University of Chicago and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Don Browning, Professor Emeritus of the University of Chicago Divinity School; William J. Doherty, Professor of Family Social Science and Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy program at the University of Minnesota; Maggie Gallagher, affiliate scholar at the Institute for American Values and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Ye Luo, a research associate at the Sloan Center on Parents, Children and Work at the University of Chicago; and Scott Stanley, Co-Director of the Center for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver.

Marital Turnarounds: How Do Unhappy Marriages Get Happier?

To follow up on the dramatic findings that two-thirds of unhappy marriages had become happy five years later, the researchers also conducted focus group interviews with 55 formerly unhappy husbands and wives who had turned their marriages around. They found that many currently happily married spouses have had extended periods of marital unhappiness, often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals.

Why did these marriages survive where other marriages did not? Spouses' stories of how their marriages got happier fell into three broad headings: the marital endurance ethic, the marital work ethic, and the personal happiness ethic.

In the marital endurance ethic, the most common story couples reported to researchers, marriages got happier not because partners resolved problems, but because they stubbornly outlasted them. With the passage of time, these spouses said, many sources of conflict and distress eased: financial problems, job reversals, depression, child problems, even infidelity.
In the marital work ethic, spouses told stories of actively working to solve problems, change behavior, or improve communication. When the problem was solved, the marriage got happier. Strategies for improving marriages mentioned by spouses ranged from arranging dates or other ways to more time together, enlisting the help and advice of relatives or in-laws, to consulting clergy or secular counselors, to threatening divorce and consulting divorce attorneys.
Finally, in the personal happiness epic, marriage problems did not seem to change that much. Instead married people in these accounts told stories of finding alternative ways to improve their own happiness and build a good and happy life despite a mediocre marriage.
The Powerful Effects of Commitment

Spouses interviewed in the focus groups whose marriages had turned around generally had a low opinion of the benefits of divorce, as well as friends and family members who supported the importance of staying married. Because of their intense commitment to their marriages, these couples invested great effort in enduring or overcoming problems in their relationships, they minimized the importance of difficulties they couldn't resolve, and they actively worked to belittle the attractiveness of alternatives.

The study's findings are consistent with other research demonstrating the powerful effects of marital commitment on marital happiness. A strong commitment to marriage as an institution, and a powerful reluctance to divorce, do not merely keep unhappily married people locked in misery together. They also help couples form happier bonds. To avoid divorce, many assume, marriages must become happier. But it is at least equally true that in order to get happier, unhappy couples or spouses must first avoid divorce. "In most cases, a strong commitment to staying married not only helps couples avoid divorce, it helps more couples achieve a happier marriage," notes research team member Scott Stanley.

Would most unhappy spouses who divorced have ended up happily married if they had stuck with their marriages?

The researchers who conduced the study cannot say for sure whether unhappy spouses who divorced would have become happy had they stayed with their marriages. In most respects, unhappy spouses who divorced and unhappy spouses who stayed married looked more similar than different (before the divorce) in terms of their psychological adjustment and family background. While unhappy spouses who divorced were on average younger, had lower household incomes, were more likely to be employed or to have children in the home, these differences were typically not large.

Were the marriages that ended in divorce much worse than those that did not? There is some evidence for this point of view. Unhappy spouses who divorced reported more conflict and were about twice as likely to report violence in their marriage than unhappy spouses who stayed married. However, marital violence occurred in only a minority of unhappy marriages: 21 percent of unhappy spouses who divorced reported husband-to-wife violence, compared to nine percent of unhappy spouses who stayed married.

On the other hand, if only the worst marriages ended up in divorce, one would expect divorce to be associated with important psychological benefits. Instead, researchers found that unhappily married adults who divorced were no more likely to report emotional and psychological improvements than those who stayed married. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.

More research is needed to establish under what circumstances divorce improves or lessens adult well-being, as well as what kinds of unhappy marriages are most or least likely to improve if divorce is avoided.

Other Findings

Other findings of the study based on the National Survey Data are:

The vast majority of divorces (74 percent) took place to adults who had been happily married when first studied five years earlier. In this group, divorce was associated with dramatic declines in happiness and psychological well-being compared to those who stayed married.
Unhappy marriages are less common than unhappy spouses; three out of four unhappily married adults are married to someone who is happy with the marriage.
Staying married did not typically trap unhappy spouses in violent relationships. Eighty-six percent of unhappily married adults reported no violence in their relationship (including 77 percent of unhappy spouses who later divorced or separated). Ninety-three percent of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce reported no violence in their marriage five years later.


Endnotes

1. Examples of the "divorce assumption:" In a review of Cutting Loose: Why Women Who End Their Marriages Do So Well by Ashton Applewhite in Kirkus Reviews, the reviewer writes that "if Applewhite's figures are correct, three-fourths of today's divorces are initiated by women, and if her analysis of the situation is correct, they are better off, at least psychologically, for having taken the big step." The book's publisher describes the book this way: "Cutting Loose introduces 50 women . . . who have thrived after initiating their own divorces. . . . [T]heir lives improved immeasurably, and their self-esteem soared." In an oped in the New York Times, Katha Pollit asks, "The real question . . . [is] which is better, a miserable two-parent home, with lots of fighting and shouting and frozen silences and tears, or a one-parent home (or a pair of one-parent homes) without those things" (June 27, 1997). In a review of The Good Divorce by Constance R. Ahrons in Booklist, we are told that Ms. Ahrons "offers advice and explanations to troubled couples for whom 'staying together for the sake of the children' is not a healthy or viable option."

2. Spouses were asked to rate their overall marital happiness on a 7-point scale, with 1 being the least happy and 7 the most happy. Those who rated their marriage as a 1 or 2 were considered to be very unhappy in their marriages. Almost 8 out of 10 adults who rated their marriage as a 1 or 2 gave that same marriage a 5 or more when asked to rate their marriage five years later.

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Spidey, did you see Peps new thread about the Dr. Phil show on 2/2? Something I think you should tape and watch if you are not home to see it..polyfidelity. Always thinking of you.

believer, Thank You. I really needed to read that. It is so true. I told H about it, and he agrees. Of course, he's not the one that thinks he wants the D this time! Oh well. I have to practice what I preach ~ last time when he wanted it, I kept wanting him to wait longer to be sure. That is what I am determined to do now. And look out when Spidey becomes determined about something! For instance, this morning I ran 6 miles in the SNOW. It was really coming down, then at about mile 4 it all turned to slush. I was soaking wet and freezing when I was done. In fact, it was a bit too extreme even for me. BUT, I started it, and I had to keep going to get back to my car!

ff, thank you, also. One of my friends already gave me a heads-up about that Dr. Phil, but she wasn't sure what day it was. I told H that I was going to tape it, so we could watch it together. I hate it when I watch something by myself, and try to tell him about it, and we end up disagreeing about the way I am trying to paraphrase what I want to talk about! It is so frustrating. Because I already know what I want to talk about, I kinda skip over the background information, and we get stuck trying to get that all straightened out. *sigh*

Spidey

I'm just sort of a lurker here, but I'm not completely mute....

Spidey... yikes! That's a pretty heavy courseload (is that a word?), isn't it?
NOT that you can't handle it, of course... I'm happy and excited for you! :-)
I'm getting close to signing on the dotted line to start my really-old-man's-pursuit-of-further-education, and it'll be 4 courses per year -- so you make me feel lazy.......

That struck me as more... more something... than you've said before. Am I wrong?
How's it going??
The Limbo Thing is hard on your heart, and soul, and spirit... you know that.
I'm not saying you don't have a worthy goal (of course you do, if that's where you still are in your thinking process).
Is there progress one way or the other, at least in your mind -- where you see this going?


Cool!

Hey.. speaking of Idaho, I pulled up next to a U-Haul yesterday... YOU know, an IDAHO U-Haul.
With a picture of a striped horse on the side. Which didn't really phase me, because everytime I think of Idaho, I naturally think of zebras. But, of COURSE I had to sit there and read the whole story on the side of the truck about the "Hagerman Horse" (Idaho's state fossil).
If you want more information, let me know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Talk to ya soon.... at some point I want to ramble on about some things that you told me -- many months ago -- that are coming to fruition. Too complicated to get into right now, but I just wanted you to know that still not a day goes by that I don't appreciate your help... and your words of wisdom.

No way. I also have the benefit of not having to work full time in a career, and go to school. My H has been taking classes one at a time, and he is finally ready to graduate at the end of this month. Just one class at a time is very challenging when working full time. I don't think you are lazy at all.


I don't know. I vaccilate between wanting a D, and wanting to stick it out. I think I am more firmly on the "wanting to stick it out" side right now, but I can be fickle! I reserve the right to change my mind . . . every few minutes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


Not really, unfortunately. This weekend he was talking more of them being friends, him not thinking he would be willing/able to do anything that would cause our break-up, but he is fickle too, and he reserves the right to change his mind often, as well.

So, I'm still hanging out in Limbo Land. Probably will be for many more months.

Ah, the Hagerman Horse. I have actually not heard of that before. I have been to Hagerman once, when I was a teenager, with a friend and her family. We went boating in one of the most clear lakes I have ever seen ~ torquoise colored water, you could see every round rock on the bottom. The only thing that freaked me out, is you could also see all the big fishies swimming by when you were in the water. I'll take the muddy lakes when I am in them in that regard. Next time we go up there, I'll be on the lookout for more Hagerman Horse information.



Cool, I can't wait to hear your report. I hope they are good things coming to fruition! We all could use some heaping doses of that right now. At least, I know I could!

Spidey

Thanks Spidey, but maybe you should talk to my vacuum cleaner before you say such things <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Spidey, I think I understand, as best I can, where YOU are at right now. (bold statement, especially for me!)
B u t ... what is your H doing to help both of you get out of Limbo Land?
Is it fair to say that he might be "just fine" exactly where HE's at -- indefinitely? Or, forever?
IOW, what's going on day after day after day... to get you (YOU, your H, your M) out of this state that you're in?

Um, nothing. Nada, zip, nill, zero, zilcho, negative.

They had lunch yesterday, but only had time to catch up on work stuff. Plus, every time they meet I freak out. Heck ya I freak out! I told him I would from the beginning. I don't know why he thinks I am going to change. I don't agree with what they are doing, I don't think they are handling it in a healthy/protective way, and I'm certainly not going to endorse him.

So, he just sits, afraid to move in either direction, frozen, numb. I keep telling him that I am not going to be able to help him along this journey of his. He must do it alone. And he better hurry, because I am just about out of gas to stick around. A person can only take so much, right? Especially on the heals of what we have already been through? He says I am just playing the victim. I probably am. But this is just too much for me right now. I wake up each day not knowing how I will make it through. And go to bed each night dreading the next day coming.

But I am the one who willingly got back together with someone who thinks it is perfectly acceptable to say, "Well, that is how I felt then, and this is how I feel now." So I really don't have anyone to blame but myself.

Spidey

NOPE ... you are not playing anything ... especially NOT playing victim ... he's fulla crap about this!

I am so glad you said that.

Spidey---

a real question---

It seems you and H often discuss H's ever-changing feelings ... how far does the conversation go when discussing things that are not supposed to change, things like morals and values? Things like keeping vows and promises? Where does the conversation go when discussing principles to live by?

why?

Spidey - How much longer does he plan on continuing the EA? Because this is exactly what it is. He has feelings for her and she has feelings for them and they go to lunch together alone, knowing that it hurts you but not caring and doing it anyway. My heart is breaking for you and I don't know how to help you. Can I just come out to Idaho and hit WH upside the head?

Thanks for checking in, Pep. I'm afraid I will have to start posting over on the Divorced/Divorcing board soon.

Plan B ???

Sorry, I made my last post, not realizing others had posted on another page! Well, I'll give you an excerpt from H's lastest email, and perhaps you can get a good idea from that.



Then later he sent this:



This is pretty much where I am at.

Kloe, thanks for checking in on my still. I really do appreciate all of you. And ff, thanks as well.

Spidey

Ouch Spidey.



The only way I can see coming out ahead for you is for the man you married to be loyal and committed to the vows you took when you married.

This wavering and trying to "figure out" another way won't ever work. It will be constant pain.

I feel for you Spidey.

Susan

Because I think Spidey is working too hard at NOT being the victim of her H's whims and changing emotions.

I know. And "ouch" is the understatement of the year! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oh well.