Had a conversation with WH last night. As far as I know there has been NC with OW although he still have her info in his PC address book. He said he is finally getting through the mess the EA created in his head and is now shifting to focus on me. He still doesn't know how he feels, where his feeling of love went, and he is trying to figure out where I fit in to his life.

Is this good or am I just fooling myself? He has not once shown remorse for the EA, never apologized, and never said "I love you and want to work this out". Only "I don't know what I feel anymore" Should I be investing my time and emtional energy in this man or should I run like hell. I do love him but at what cost to myself?
For those in recovery has anyone had a spouse so detached and expressing NO feelings of love actually come around to feeling love again? If so what do I do to foster that. My WH says he still isn't sure why he had the EA to begin with and therefore he isn't sure how to stop another from happening.

I am really wondering if I should just move on and let him find whatever it is he is looking for with someone else since he obviously can't find it with me.

My husband kind of went through same thing. Not necessarily love as I feel that he has always loved me...but did not think he loved me the way he should and was not sure about the marriage.

All I can say is that has started to change for him. We have not reconciled (yet?), but there's a possibility. There was a time where is was not WILLING nor did he WANT to work on the marriage, even though he intellectually saw the benefit of it. He felt that things had gone too far and gone on too long.

His affair was almost two years ago...ended before I knew about it (still sporadic contact for awhile, but I'm not sure how much). There has not been anyone else for him. After affair, we tried for a year..things improved, but only because time passed. It wasn't enough. One-year past d-day he asked for a divorce. I talked him into a separation instead.

For a couple of months after separation, things got really bad fast. Not fighting...but he was moving closer and closer to feeling like he definitely wanted a divorce. Two months ago he dropped this bomb on me that I totally did not expect that his feelings towards the marriage were changing (for the better). He asked me for the Harley counseling numbers.

Now..he has not called them yet and I'm thinking about a Plan B if he doesn't do something within next three weeks. Simply because I can't take it anymore.

Some things to consider...we hardly ever see each other as we live far away. Once every other month so we've only seen each other twice since June. Hard for me to Plan A but it has definitely had an effect. We do talk on phone couple of times a week.

So just wanted to let you know that there is hope. His exact words two months ago were that he had gone from 95% sure he wanted a divorce to 50%. It's a babystep and might not be enough, but it's still hope.

Only you can decide if you can wait it out. I know that I can't wait it out forever. Important thing for me was gaining a new life for myself and "moving on" without actually moving on (like dating).

Wow Maddy you have been doing this for a long time. Me only 3 months. I do still have a lot in me and can probably go for a while yet, but it is so hard to look at someone who shows absolutely no emotion towards you and believe that can change. My WH is a good man in most respects but I told him that I didn't want him back unless he loved me. I emailed him this morning and said I understood where he stood but my question was "Do you WANT to love me again?", I think that is different, but from a man's perspective maybe not.

I appreciate you sharing with me.

Actually, waitingwithouthope, I have not been doing this a long time. For the year after his affair, we really did nothing to try and repair the marriage. We took a 'wait and see' approach. No counseling, no plans, etc etc. We simply didn't know what we could do. He did not tell me what was REALLY wrong. Things did improve, but not much...not enough. I'll bet you almost anything that is how most folks deal with an affair. They either leave straight off, or just fumble along for awhile. He thought (thinks) affair had nothing to do with wanting the divorce...WS handbook stuff.

then came the year mark..and that's when he asked for the divorce. Now, I couldn't actually leave for another 4-5 months after that. God that was hard!! But you know what? Things were actually great between us during that time. Still not Plan A (I really blamed him for everything...I took NO responsibility for state of marriage), but we were getting along great. But still...that year and a half with doing NOTHING to try and recover really took its toll. I got all the "need space, need to be single for awhile" stuff. When I left, he didn't say it, but I got that vibe "I'm free I'm free!!"

After I left...I found MB. Day late, dollar short, all that. He really started detaching from me. First visit we had was great, but I didn't feel anything changed. Second visit approaches...and even during visit I felt that things were just getting worse. Then he drops this bomb on me about counseling and stuff like that. Totally unexpected. But he still hasn't done anything about it yet, so like I said..it might not be enough. But I think that even you can see that Plan A did have an effect and it did create positive change.

Let me ask you something. If your husband said that he was not sure how he felt...wasn't sure about the love, wasn't sure he wanted the marriage...but was WILLING to try (follow MB principals) for a SET AMOUNT OF TIME (can't do this forever)...would you do it? Can you see the value in it?

We decided on a June 2005 divorce date when we separated if things have not changed significantly so there is definitely a timeline in my case. While part of me doesn't like this timeline...it's also good for me. I know I won't be trying forever. Things will either change, or we'll divorce. There's a timeframe for his fence-sitting.

Maddy...I think that is where we are at right now.
What and see. I can not imagine in your case going through a year of no movement. What happened when you seperated that goes things to get so bad? Did you do a legal sep? You have kids right? Did he make an effort to see them.

You also said he is dating? Does he present himself as married but seperated? I just don't get women who get into those types of relationships. I think my husband wants to work on things but I am not sure of the reasons. It may be just for the kids, or it may be that he stands to loose big time financially if we D...I don't want him to be working on it for those reasons. I want him to want me. I am doing all of the fighting to get him back. I am always telling him that I love him, how sexy he is, what a good man he is despite the EA and I get zippo, nada in return. I have lost 27 lbs and go to the gym 4 days a week. My hair is long again (which he loves). I offered to learn how to golf because he is a big golfer. He thinks this is overboard because he met the OW golfing and this is my way of controling him.

Are you still seperated? Are you dating each other? Has he told you what he needs from you? Does he say "I love you"..."I miss you"...anything?

Going to try and quote stuff out so I don't miss anything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maddy...I think that is where we are at right now.What and see. I can not imagine in your case going through a year of no movement. What happened when you seperated that goes things to get so bad? Did you do a legal sep? You have kids right? Did he make an effort to see them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wait and see does noooooooo good. I said how things improved. Well really, they only improved because we both "stuffed", so in reality they didn't improve at all. We both grew a lot of resentment. But you seem to be in a Plan A? So while he may be in "wait and see mode" (I think my h still is), *you* are actually doing something so that's a start.

What happened to make things so bad? I'm not sure. At first I think it was my "desperate and needy" act I was pulling until I found MB. Then I think it was just that "I'm single and can do whatever I want...yay!!!" I don't like that, but can understand it. I have to admit that there were things I was looking forward to as well, like decorating my apartment how I wanted and stuff like that. Also, of course things were kind of awkward between us and our friendship was draining away. Our friendship was the one good thing we did still have but the awkwardness took its toll.

Nope, not legally separated. Not an option for us as it's not available in the state of his home of record (he's in military and home of record is Florida).

We do not have kids together. My son is from my first marriage. We also own no property together. We have no real legally binding ties to each other except the marriage. Unfortuantely it would be very easy and inexpensive for us to divorce.

And yes, stagnation is what drives me crazy. I always want to spur some kind of change, whether it's positive or negative...just some kind of change!! I feel like we're kind of stagant now which is why I'm considering Plan B. I posted my letter somewhere in this forum in the last couple of days if you want to take a quick read to see how it might differ from other's.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You also said he is dating? Does he present himself as married but seperated? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hope I won't confuse you on this one. When we separated we agreed to date others...Once I found MB I saw what a bad idea that was and told him I was not going to date until we actually divorced. I asked him to do the same. While he has in reality NOT dated anyone...he still will not agree to "no dating". This is currently a big sticking point with us and something that's spurring me on to Plan B. The fact that he's NOT dating doesn't amount to a hill of beans if he won't COMMIT to not dating, kwim? If he were to date someone, I'm not sure what he would tell them. I would hope that he would tell them the truth, but I don't really know and am careful about kidding myself. As far as I know, he doesn't wear his wedding band anymore (my rings have been moved to my right hand rather than left). I'm not sure if the wedding band thing has changed since we had our "talk" but he hasn't said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you still seperated? Are you dating each other? Has he told you what he needs from you? Does he say "I love you"..."I miss you"...anything? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, he lives in Puerto Rico and I live in Florida so it's hard to actually date each other. When he visits, we do go out, and do have SF (thank God!!...lol). First visit he stayed at my house whole time. Second visit he stayed at my house just over 1/2 the time (his parents live close to me). The "I love you's" stopped for a long time, but they started again shortly before his second visit. Not like it used to be and not a LOT..but they are there. I NEVER say it first unless we're currently in an R talk I might say something like, "I do love you and want to try and make this work". I do not get "I miss you" except once in a blue moon. I think that in some ways he does not miss me. In others ways he does.

Does he tell me what he needs from me? When we had our "talk" he told me WHY things were changing for him...what things I was doing to make him look at the situation differently. He also told me what was still holding him back from making a commitment towards reconciliation. This was a HUGE breakthrough for us. He's a major conflict avoider (I am too) so I see this as the biggest positive change in him. Should note that when I first left he told me he didn't need anything from me...that the breakup had nothing to do with me, it was all him, blah blah blah. I do not know what his top EN's are, though. I think the changes that he needs to see are the ones I most need to make for MYSELF. This is good because that correlation has kept me from feeling like a doormat or feeling like I was changing into a person that just wasn't me, or that I was changing only for him and the marriage.

This is how I see it, waitingwithouthope. If your husband is willing to work on things only for the kids or for financial reasons, so what? Your goal would be to get to the point where you BOTH want to work on things...who cares what the reasons are for starting to do it? In order for you to BOTH have a satisfying marriage, that "willing" needs to change to "wanting" eventually. I feel that as long as you have a TIMELINE for yourself as far as willing vs wanting is concerned, then it's okay to START for reasons that are less than ideal. If you believe the concepts that love was drained away and can be "redeposited" then it's okay to wait a little while for his feeling of love to be CREATED. But I feel that a timeline is important otherwise you could be waiting forever and you'll end up with a marriage that is not satisfying to *you*.

I admire you for sticking with it in light of the distance between you. Is he a lifer or will he be getting out of the military? When will he be moving closer to home?
I totally understanding the dating but not dating thing. originally I told my WH that I didn't feel comfortable about him dating but I couldn't stop him, I also said that I did not intend in bringing other people into the mix. My WH does not wear his ring, that is one reason I believe his EA even started. She didn't know he was married and he didn't tell. I think he doesn't wear it because he really isn't sure if he loves me and if he wants to be married. I usually wear mine but have been seeing how it feels not to.

Im glad to have you bring up the SF thing. That is one thing we have been able to keep going, but my WH actually told me that it held no emotional meaning to him anymore so I feel as if I am hurting myself by participating. I keep telling myself that perhaps it will help him feel close to me at some point. Friends have recommended I not have SF until he decides what he wants. I hate these quandries.

He responsed to email about whether he "wanted" to fall in love with me again. His response "Feels like you are on another fishing expedition again" Damn, damn, damn

He'll be a lifer. He's a pilot and his obligation is 13 years so it would be silly for him not to go until retirement.

Moving back together...this is where things get tough for us. I will not go back down to Puerto Rico. It was nice for a little while, but there is nothing for me down there. I can't work, I can't go to school...and I won't make my son change schools AGAIN. I have my boundaries too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He's scheduled to be there until summer of '06. This is something that we might not be able to work through and something I've accepted. When we had our "talk" he did talk of the future and this point was brought up. I got the "if we don't divorce" which was a new thing for him....anyway..he came up with somewhat of a plan...getting stationed in Miami which is still kinda far from me, but definitely drivable. See, I will not move again until I finish my college education...again, something we might not be able to work through. So I'm not sure how we'll actually work that out and I don't want to worry about it too much right now since we're nowhere close to that point anyway.

Let me just tell you some of the things I've done...things I think influenced him, negotiations we have made etc.

-Me getting a life I think was one of the biggest changes for him. I completely depended on him for my happiness. I dno't think this worried him in respect to "me moving on" and no longer being an option for him..but I think it helped him to see that I could be independent, fun, social and could go for what I needed.
-Once I realized I no longer NEEDED him, I think he somehow caught that vibe. Again, not so much as me "moving on" as feeling that burden lifted from his shoulders.
-Admitting to him and apologizing sincerely (not profusely) for the mistakes that I made. Admitting to him what changes have been hard for me to make and which ones have been difficult. The thing he needs to see changed to the most is the one I'm having the most difficulty with...but is also the thing that will make the biggest difference in MY life (in a nutshell, I lack motivation or seek it out in the wrong places...like from other people).
-It was important to let my husband know that I did not want a divorce. However it was equally important for him to know that I could accept one should that time come. He had worries that if he did try even a little, then I would take it the wrong way and get my hopes up too much. I tried to take that worry away from him though I'm sure it's still there a little.

One thing I could not do in Plan A was abstain from R talks. I've never been able to do that. But I did change my tone (no longer needy and desperate). We also kind of negotiated that I would warn him ahead of time when I needed to have one of those talks...that way he was prepared for it and it wasn't just sprung on him. It has worked well for us. and while I know that abstaining from these kind of talks is recommended, my h told me specifically that he was glad I pushed him and that I want to talk about things. But this is one of those things where you really kind of need to know your spouse to know if R talks are good for you or not.

Is your husband usually fairly willing to talk about things, even if you have a set time..like say 30 minutes? Instead of saying "do you WANT to gain your love for me back", would he be more receptive to, "Look, I know you are unsure of our relationship and whether or not you want or even could work this out. Would you be willing to try for X months and then we can see where we're at?" This takes a little pressure off of him (timeline) and also lets him know that you're ready for a worst-case scenario. Be specific about your expectations so that he doesn't not have to worry about things that may or may not be the case. If "trying" includes MC..tell him. If "trying" includes "SF"...tell him. If "trying" includes filling out EN q and trying to fulfill them for each other even when neither of you feel like it...tell him. Get specific and it may take some of the pressure off of him. These are just some thoughts. don't know your H so only you could say whether he would be receptive to a plan with a timeline.

As far as "SF" goes...I think of it like this. I WANT SF...and so I do. Heck, I even get him to do phone with me..lol. As long as I truly want SF then I'm okay with however he feels about it (emotional or physical). If there came a time when I felt like I was doing it only to please him, then I would stop. For your friends..well, they're not in your shoes. While I don't think you should do it only for him, neither do I think you should punish yourself if YOU WANT TO. And don't ask him how he feels about it...if you want to do it...just enjoy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I was in a similar spot when my WH finally ended his A for good. He was in a huge depressive funk- barely noticed my new clothes, hair,extra efforts etc. He showed me no empathy or compassion for what I'd been thru during his fog. He did cry ONCE when he cancelled the D papers he had filed on me the day after I received them. But other than that he was cold. In fact I felt that he blamed me for having to give up OW!!??? When I would try to get some basic affection from him( ie. hug, kiss) he would say he was 'waiting to see if his feelings for me were coming back." Finally after 2 months of that he began to act like his pre-affair self more. During all this I was desperate for him to want me again. Now a few years has passed and I often think to myself why do I stay married to someone who is capable of what he did and had so little empathy and true sorrow over what he did? I see now we were both conflict avoiders and I also had never set firm enough boundaries thruout our entire marriage. Take care- lifeismessy

WWH and MK:

If you don't mind; I'm going to pull a minor threadjack here and offer an opinion that I'm seeing more & more of on this forum and in life.
MK; I will use some of your words because they're convenient - not meant to be personal!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Moving back together...this is where things get tough for us. I will not go back down to Puerto Rico. It was nice for a little while, but there is nothing for me down there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MK: You say that there is nothing down there for you. H is there! Everything else should be secondary.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have my boundaries too He's scheduled to be there until summer of '06. This is something that we might not be able to work through and something I've accepted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that you should have boundaries. But '06 is not very long from now, particularly when you've waited a year w/no change. I'll bet that your S would gladly move if he thought that Mom would be happily married.

Let me put it this way: If my XWW would have agreed to move to Pluto and work on our M; that would have shown me how committed she is. Words are nice - but men need to see action, that their W is totally-committed to the relationship. I understand your thought process; I just have a fundamental disagreement with it. Did you know that H was in military prior to M?

It just seems that there are too many personal needs - not conducive to what a M should be like. I keep seeing and hearing what "I desire" and not much of what "our marriage needs to survive, then grow to the next level...". Not meaning to be disrespectful, just passionate about the true meaning of M; which means total commitment, which includes compromise for the better good.

I wonder if SH would have an opinion on this? He may say that I'm crazy to think this way but it would be interesting to hear his views on this.

Just my 2-pennies. I wish both of you the best!

FR