Hey, Fishracer! I wanted to pull this out here so as not to clutter up Waiting's post as this is a pretty different topic than her post is about.

I'm glad you posted and took no offense at it. I'm glad you did because this has been a hard decision for me to make. The moving thing has been a really hard decision for me to come to. There are a few reasons behind it. i'll explain the easy ones first, then go in a little deeper why logistics aren't the only reason.

Logistics: We wouldn't be able to afford it (or it would be an extreme strain on our budget). Military will not pay for our car to be shipped back down there, nor will they pay for my household goods to be sent back down. This would be entirely on our dime. When it's time to come back to the States, his moving allowance is going to be much lower (because they already paid for me to move back here) and we'd end up having to pay a lot then too. When I left, he had to move into "bachelor" housing to free up houses for those with families. We'd have to move into off-base housing. This is not impossible, but it's not really viable either. Housing is limited down there (where we lived anyway) and very expensive for what you get. Is this all stuff we could manage? Maybe--hard to say without doing an actual cost analysis. But I do know that the stress of it all would probably be more than the stress of being apart. And to do that and move back here a year later...

My son: My son is 16 and in the 10th grade. He's from my first marriage and not my current husband's child. this age is a terrible age for any kid to have to move and go to a new school and make new friends. Not only for the friend thing, but for college too. Hard for him to get involved in activities (particularly team sports) at a new school, hard to keep his grades up, etc. He's currently in his 4th school in five years. Add to the mix that he's borderline ADHD (was psychiatrically diagnosed with ADHD, but it's fairly mild in him). He's non-medicated as our best coping strategy thus far have been just having a routine. While I consider both him AND my husband as top-priorities in my life, I have a really hard time contemplating the added stress of making my son move yet again...and then again in a year or so. I have not always been the best mom in the world and I feel like right now I have to make very hard decisions...I don't think that moving again is anywhere NEAR in his best interests.

Me: Yep, he was in the miitary when we got married. My first husband was in the military so I knew what I was in for. What I did not expect was that not every place we might be stationed might not have a school where I could finish my degree. Let me go back a lot further to my first husband here.

I was very very young when I got married to my first husband. I got pregnant when I was a senior in high school. Before that time, I had been applying to schools like Brown and Princeton. I was "the smart one" in the family and very high expectations were placed on me and I placed them on myself as well. So...things happened and I decided to get married instead of going to school. I figured that I would always be able to go to school. Didn't happen that way. Everytime I would bring up starting school, there was always a reason from him not to. Money, transportation, my son, etc etc. Truth was, he just didn't want me to improve myself because he feared I'd leave him after. Well that ended up happening anyway and I moved back with my parents and did start attending college a couple of years later.

That was a long process for me. I ended up changing majors to engineering which set me back time-wise...some times I attended full-time, other times I attended part-time or took a semester off because I had to work. I am your perpetual student...not because of always attending classes..but because of circumstances, I couldn't just go full-steam ahead.

Then I met my husband...we dated for awhile before we married. He got stationed close to the town I was living in so that I could still go to school. Some stuff happened early on in our marriage and it greatly affected my schooling. I ended up doing very poorly during that time and ended up withdrawing altogether for awhile to "get my head together." When it was time for him to change duty stations (he was accepted to flight school)..I thought..'hey, no problem. fresh start...I'll start school again down there.' Problem was...there was no school close by that offered engineering. Can you believe it? It's not like I was in some weird major! I only had 3-4 semesters left..all my gen-eds were done. All my beginning engineering courses were done..all the math, chemistry, physics. It was straight upperclass engineering classes for me. So that was a disappointment, but flight school was only a year and a half. He wanted to get stationed in Miami which is not a station that is often requested so we were 80% positive we'd get it. I knew I'd be able to finish my education then. Problem with *that*...was that someone messed up his orders and didn't pass them on to be processed. People who had just STARTED flight school had already started to choose their stations and we still didn't have ours yet. By the time the error was discovered, there were very few duty stations to choose from and Miami wasn't one of them. We had less than a day to decide where to go. We decided to have an adventure and go to Puerto Rico. Three year duty station...okay...school can wait until after that.

I got down to Puerto Rico, he left for a transistion school two weeks later. His school was six weeks and that's when the affair happened. We fumbled along for a year after that and he asked me to leave.

I chose the area that I moved to mostly because there are a lot of schools around and I can FINALLY finsish my education. So this is the part that is me. I have the opportunity now and I'm not getting any younger. Pretty soon my credits that I have are not even going to count and I'm going to have to redo many of them. Once I start school again I do not feel that I can move again until I'm finished--otherwise the whole scenario above could happen again..moving to where there are no schools, moving mid-semester, etc.

I feel obligations to my marriage. But I also have obligations to myself. Me not finishing my education has been a HUGE source of depression for me over the years and it DEFINITELY affected my marriage. My feelings of self-worth were nil and my husband felt that burden. I don't want to finish school...I need to finish school. It's part of my make-up..I HAVE to do it. It took me a long time to understand that my obligation to myself when it comes to my very BEING is greater than my obligation to my marriage.

Hope that helps to enlighten why I feel so strongly about moving again. It's not because I'm not willing to do everything to save my marriage. What I'm not willing to do is save my marriage AT ALL COSTS and if I move, I feel that the cost will be ME and that is too high of a price to pay.

Hey Maddy:

I will read and respond later today. Very busy right now so that I can leave early today.

FR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by maddyk:
<strong>
I feel obligations to my marriage. But I also have obligations to myself. Me not finishing my education has been a HUGE source of depression for me over the years and it DEFINITELY affected my marriage. My feelings of self-worth were nil and my husband felt that burden. I don't want to finish school...I need to finish school. It's part of my make-up..I HAVE to do it. It took me a long time to understand that my obligation to myself when it comes to my very BEING is greater than my obligation to my marriage.

Hope that helps to enlighten why I feel so strongly about moving again. It's not because I'm not willing to do everything to save my marriage. What I'm not willing to do is save my marriage AT ALL COSTS and if I move, I feel that the cost will be ME and that is too high of a price to pay. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MaddyK:

That was a nice post and very insightful. I think you are dead on correct with finishing your schooling and getting your degree.

I hope that others can read your post and apply it to their lives. Saving a marriage "at all costs" and not being "true" to yourself is IMO a predominant theme around here. Glad to see you kicking the mold

Good post.

<small>[ December 30, 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

Thanks, LM. Just found out I was not accepted to the University <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , but I'm applying to the community/jr college now. My last academic stint really really hurt me. Anyway, that's why I chose to move here anyway..for the many schools that are around.

Yeah, that "all costs" thing. What I get from your postings to people is that you can see that the cost is wayyyy to high for that person personally.

It took me a very long time to BELIEVE that I had the "right" to be obligated to myself. I knew it intellectually but believing is a whole 'nother story. All the cliche stuff about families and growing up. My dad..though I love him..is extremely domineering. My mom is very selfless. Always worked full-time, took care of us, the house...even picked out his friggin' clothes. Don't mean to be disrepectful to my mom, but can you say doormat? All I hear about is how independent she was growing up..and now? It makes me so sad. I don't want to be like her. But ya know what? I ended up exactly like her. My husband is not demanding like my dad is, but I still gave my whole SELF to my marriage. I did indeed lose myself and it's no one's fault but my own. Anyway...growing up..and even as an adult...nothing I ever did was good enough. It was good...but not good enough...kwim? I could do EXACTLY what my dad wanted me to do and it still would not be the right thing. Do you know that even as an adult..he called me a loser? That day was my wake-up call at what a destructive force he has been in my life, even though I know he really does love me.

But it's taken (takING) a long time to get over that. It's taking me a long time to really believe I have worth. It has taken me a long time to believe that if I'm worth nothing to myself, why on earth would anyone else think I'm worth something?

Smile..so this is my mission in life now and I do hope that it can benefit my marriage as well. I need to find validations within myself. I have to do what I need to do...to heck what anyone else thinks about it. It's so easy..and I wish I had known how easy it was all along. I need to stay in the "black" for the cost/benefit ratio. I'm worth that.

I do wish that some of those here would realize that Plan A should also be giving them feelings of self-worth. It should not be all about cost and giving. It is so hard to set boundaries when you've not ever set them before in your life. But it's an absolute must. If my marriage is rebuilt, I intend to be fully happy within it. That can't happen unless I do what I need to do to feel worth to myself.

Maddyk:

First, I am sorry about the university acceptance deal. Their loss!

Second: I read your post with great interest and agree with Lemonman. You are insightful and have considered your priorities correctly in my new opinion. I think that I also see a little of me in your words, but correct me if I'm wrong. What I mean by that is; it appears that you prefer to have most of your life-issues in order which allows you the time and energy to devote more to your M. (Life does not always allow for that, but in your case, I fully agree!) I also see more clearly how military life requires another level of organization/prioritizing than we civvies generally think of.

So many times I see a marriage in peril and both sides are screaming "I want..." when a dose of "what can I do for you/us..." going both ways would be awesome for each. So I stand corrected and apologize in your case and fully agree with you and Lemon. "All costs" is not conducive for all situations. Thank you for the insight and good luck with your future.

FR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I mean by that is; it appears that you prefer to have most of your life-issues in order which allows you the time and energy to devote more to your M. (Life does not always allow for that, but in your case, I fully agree!)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd say that's about right! I wish that both my h and I had been able to do this before we separated but it didn't happen that way. Although I didn't want the separation, it was a much needed kick in the butt. I was miserable...not in my marriage, but with myself, which made for an unhappy place for everyone (don't get me wrong...I don't not take full blame for our marriage..just my contribution to things). My one big fear is that if we reconcile (including moving back together) before I've got my life on the right path, that I'll never find that path again. I also know that i'll never be able to give my whole self to my marriage as long as I don't fulfill this true need that I have.

I have to say that my husband is fully supportive of me finishing my education and understands my reasoning for not wanting to go to PR if we reconcile. We both understand it's something that might end up being an obstacle we cannot overcome. But we also both understand that if I don't do this, there is not really an hope for us of having a good future together (meaning emotionally wise). The big factor here is that we feel that the risk of me going back to PR w/o finishing my eduction is much higher than the risk of the physical separation. Thankfully my education is a loud "I want" for both of us, even though we understand the risk involved.

MaddyK-

Hey! Thanks for the email a while ago....

When I read your posts, I feel like I was looking into a mirror at a female version of my own soul. My mother was the domineering one, and my dad was more or less absent. I did some of the exact same things that you did for your marriage...

I gave up my future as an MD to allow my wife to go to Podiatry school - two doctors in one household would be too much. I am much smarter than her, but due to my mother, didn't complete college. For a time period, I was even looking at attending Rice University, but it was cost prohibitive. So I put all of my efforts into our M. Somehow I think I lost myself in taking care of her. I used to even joke about how I was such a "blue-collar" worker married to a soon to be doctor. I think all of my self-sacrifice drove me into a deep depression. I never did anything for myself.

Case-in-point: I drive a '92 toyota p/u with 187,000 mi on it. My wife? She has a '02 Trans Am Ram air convertible - and a Jeep Wrangler. Am I a sucker, or what?

I have let her have most everything she wants, and done nothing for myself.

But times, they are a changin'. I have told her I am ready to file and I am going to pack my crap up and move to Austin to persue my original dream. It feels so good to do something just for me! Yesterday, I went clothes shopping for myself, for the first time in years! I am even considering buying a new truck and MAYBE even a motorcycle....I have wanted one since I was 14, but never bought one at my WW (then GF)'s request.

It feels good to take care of yourself, doesn't it?

TM

<small>[ December 30, 2004, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: TravellinMan ]</small>

TM doing things for yourself is extremely important and I'm not just talking nice-haircuts and new clothes (though that does do it for some).

i don't think there is anything at all wrong with giving your spouse everything they want. I think that's sweet and to be admired. But...you (we) did nothing for ourselves and that's where the problems lies. One cannot ALWAYS be the one who is sacrificing. Some sacrifice is good and necessary, but sacrifice needs to be shared.

I'm lucky in that my husband is totally onboard with all of my changes..even if we don't end up together in the end. In our case, giving all of myself to my marriage was not something he wanted. It created too much of a burden for him and I can totally understand that. When we met I was fairly independent..then boom...we married and without his request, I gave my whole self. Selflessness isn't always to be admired. It can most definitely be a weakness when we don't know where to draw the line.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TravellinMan:
But times, they are a changin'. I have told her I am ready to file and I am going to pack my crap up and move to Austin to persue my original dream. It feels so good to do something just for me! Yesterday, I went clothes shopping for myself, for the first time in years! I am even considering buying a new truck and MAYBE even a motorcycle....I have wanted one since I was 14, but never bought one at my WW (then GF)'s request.

It feels good to take care of yourself, doesn't it?

TM</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sure does but don't forget the lessons you've learned here so you won't repeat the mistakes of the past and find yourself in another marriage with another version of your STBXWW. Take the time to emotionally heal and learn to love yourself first by being kind, caring and respectful of your mind, body and soul while not allowing anybody to treat you differently.

TMCM

Welp, ha ha on me. After talking with my husband last night about not being accepted at the university and how I was applying to the community college...found out he is NOT all on board with this whole education thing.

He didn't say it this way exactly, but definitely conveyed that he does not believe in me and does not have faith in me.

Ya know what? I've had enough of that in my life and I'm tired of trying to prove myself to everyone else. If he was looking for the one thing that would make *me* want to leave this marriage, he found it. I cannot be with someone who does not believe in me.

Maddyk:

I about choked when I read your last post! I am very sorry that you're going through this. Obviously the alien remains foggy!

One thing I realized in my M is that there are those who strive to feel good about themselves (and their M) by working together to improve each other - and there are those who strive to hold the other back. One is about respect/commitment/love; the other is about control. I'll take the former and XW & OM can deal with the latter. It looks like you have some tough decisions ahead of you. I hope you continue grasping your dreams and also that there may be someone who will support you in that quest. It sounds like H does not want you to improve and that's a tough pill for you to swallow at this point in your life. I hope you continue with your educational goals and perhaps by then; H will have learned to love you for who you are rather than hold you back. It's amazing how discombobulated (huh) WS's can get; isn't it? Good Luck!

FR

Thanks, Fishracer.

Well, actually I think H *does* want me to improve. He just doesn't believe I can and thinks I don't have the motivation. Doesn't think my plan for finishing my education was realistic given our current situation. Maybe it wasn't...dunno..but telling me that I CAN'T do it is certainly not the way to motivate me.

Seriously...I can't be with someone who does not believe in me.

Someone told me to not Plan B...to let my husband LB me to death (my reason to go to Plan B was to lose love for him via withdrawal..quite the opposite of actual Plan B purpose). So...last night...was not a LB withdrawal. It was a robbery. Too bad it's not FDIC insured.

I'll still wait to see what he does with counseling but let's just say he stole all my hope last night.

Maddyk:

A few questions for you:

1. What actions from H makes you believe that he wants you to improve?

2. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He just doesn't believe I can and thinks I don't have the motivation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know what school is like and you know your schedule. Do you have the motivation to make this happen with all things considered?

3. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't think my plan for finishing my education was realistic given our current situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is his alternative plan? From here; it looks to be the best plan for all involved!

OK - just a little insight from the cheap seats here: I seriously question his position about your M. He's dating (WHY?) He does not offer (proper) support to you for something that you obviously want pretty badly and have desired for many years. It just sounds to me like he is trying to keep you in your former position of giving your entire self to him/M rather than a balance for him, you and M. That is fairly common behavior from a WS when BS is taking steps to improve themselves. They don't want you 100%; but they want you to remain as you were in case they change their mind. As Orchid would say; FOG-BABBLE!

FR

FR, read your post and would like to think on it. Getting ready to go out (letting my moisturizer absorb right now..teehee) so I'll answer tomorrow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Okay, it's morning and I didn't drink last night so I'm in good form <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Before I start..after reading your questions I'm thinking I might have overreacted a bit, but any implied non-faith in me hurt and I didn't know what to do with that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. What actions from H makes you believe that he wants you to improve?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-He is offering to help me with my tuition and has very promptly gotten me any information I've needed to fill out my financial aid forms, residency forms, and actual application.
-Continuously has been asking me the status of my application in a supportive manner and has sympathized with my transcipt woes (had lots of problems getting them)
-Non-education: Has bought me equipment for Yoga, and books on some of my other interests. Shows interest in hearing about these things I do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know what school is like and you know your schedule. Do you have the motivation to make this happen with all things considered?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do because my motivations right now are very good ones. This is something I've specifically worked on in IC..making sure I'm doing things for the right reasons, rather than doing what everyone else expects of me. I do know it would be hard, but felt like I could do it. I have to admit here that in the past I have not been very responsible with my education. I am not making excuses but had some really crappy things going on and school was the thing I let go...and I did not let it go in a very good manner. Really hurt my GPA which is why I'm not accepted to the university now. When I first brought up going to school, h and I had a long talk about it. I explained my motivations and why I wanted to do it the way I'm planning. He seemed to be on board with it at the time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is his alternative plan? From here; it looks to be the best plan for all involved!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He feels I should be working full-time and taking night classes, one or two a semester. He acknowledges that I would have to change majors if I were to do this but feels my wish for an engineering degree is unrealistic given the circumstances. The classes I need cannot be done online or at night.

My problem with this: I've only got 3-4 semesters left. All my gen-eds are done, as well as my lower level engineering classes. If I change majors (and there's really nothing else I want to do) it will really set me back. Also, it will take me so much longer to finish up. He is supporting me fully until/if we divorce. I felt I would rather go full-time this one semester while I have his financial support and work at night. That way I would have at least one full semester out of the way and would be able to go part-time subsequent semesters. His concerns with that plan are that he feels I should be working full-time right now to make sure I can support myself and son if we divorce. He also feels that my motivation level is not high enough to go to school full-time and work at night. I can see both sides of this. I want to finish school ASAP so that I am not struggling for the rest of my life. But he does have a point with ensuring that i have at least some financial security, even if it's at a minimum.

Here comes the selfish part. I put off school for him. I moved around with him in the military, always thinking I'd be able to go to school. Everytime we got a station where I could not go, it was a big disappointment, but I figured I'd always have time. And now he wants a divorce and I feel like I'm screwed. I feel like he OWES me. I know this is not healthy, but that is the way that I feel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I seriously question his position about your M. He's dating (WHY?) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not question it, though he sends me a lot of mixed signals. He has been very upfront about his ambivalence. He is not sure he WANTS to work on the marriage. He has been very honest about that. But he is willing to at this point in time. Previously he was not willing to, but that changed a couple of months ago. He asked me for the Harley counseling numbers and asked me for them again when I waited awhile before giving them. The reason I hesitated on giving him them was mostly because of his position on dating. But finally I decided to give them to him as he did ask for them a couple of times. Maybe SH can say things that my husband is not willing to hear from me? I dunno. But he's had the numbers for awhile now and has done nothing with them. He just got back to PR from visiting his mom over Christmas and he claims he is going to call the Harleys soon as he has a "holiday routine" and they don't work much during that time except for duty. We'll see. I'm actually planning on going into a Plan B around Jan 15th if he doesn't call.

His stance on dating is unacceptable to me because I know that we cannot REALLY work on things effectively as long as he's keeping that door open. I will say here that he has not dated anyone and he has said he's not really planning on it. But he said he is not willing to give up that opportunity. His reasons? I don't even want to go into it FR, because to me his reasons are stupid and unfounded and don't make sense and I cannot explain them (from what he's told me) without being extremely judgemental.

I try to be positive but I do think we'll divorce. I feel that he is pursuing his own happiness AT ALL COSTS and is completely ignoring the price of that. I also think he's waiting to be 100% sure that he wants to stay married to me. But he's got that "wait and see attitude" and you and I both know that you cannot "wait and see" when it comes to your marriage. You need to work to create that 100% feeling and that takes a long time to get..especially after an infidelity.