Happy New Year MBers.

I have decided awhile back that if I have a choice in the matter, that I never want to be lied to, mislead, or decieved.

My STBX said that she had stopped all contact to OM. I suspected it was because OM was out of town or on a vacation. I asked STBX if this was the is case. I asked her if her lover was out of town. She told me then that she didn't know where her lover was. She told me that she didn't care.

I had asked her this at least twice (maybe more?) Last night she told me that her lover was out of town. She states that is what "he told her", but she doesn't know if he is or not. So she was truthful with me when she said she didn't know what he was doing, even though he told her.

Is this honest and truthful?

I feel mislead again, lied too, and betrayed and manipulated all over again.

I have really tried hard to not react negatively to the truth when I get it. I want to know it.

I did react negatively to the lie.

Thats the sad part Tom, you now will doubt ALL she ever says EVEN if she was being absolutely 100% honest.

Its hard to accept the word of your spouse who has hurt you so much, sometimes you just have to shut your eyes and jump. Works sometimes - I was lucky I guess though I have relapses.

In your case the history is bad, I would reserve judgement watch actions, ask some questions see if reality = words.

Wish you a much better 2005 .... perhaps she has turned a corner... maybe

Aussie2,

What corner has she turned. She doesn't consider what she did as untruthful. As long as she has a mindset that withholds the truth from me what corner has been turned?

She hasn't turned a corner Tom. When she does, you will know it.

The burden of proof of honesty is on her, not you. For me if I have to question whether it is the truth or not, if I have that awful gut feeling that it is not, than I will assume that it is not the truth.

It sucks, but my sanity is everything to me now. Everything!!! No one will ever make me quesion it again.

Last summer when ex was coming up to spend some time on our property with me, he called to say his car broke down and he could not make it. I said you either make it, or you will not come at all. Well he found a way to fix the car and than drove five hours to our property with his hands covered in grease and blood, and a receipt for parts. He got out of the car and said "well do you believe me now" and I said yes, thank you.

Don't question it Tom, it'll only drive you nuts. Trust yourself and your gut.

Weaver I admire your ex's resolve to show you can trust him. That was a lot of effort, you have to make that effort to prove you can be trusted again.

My STBX however, doesn't do that. She off-handly just rationalizes her lies away.

And speaking of effort. I saw my STBX a few times last week. I kind of thought she might try to look nice when I came by. But it was baggy sweats and old shirts and no make-up, and her lover's favorite hairdo staring me in the face. So I guess she is sending a message there as well.

Unfortunately it takes a dose of hard cold reality for some people to wake up.

It seems that she is one of those kind. She'll eventually get that you won't always be there, once you are gone. This probably is what it is going to take for her.

Your sitch is one of the saddest on here I often think, because she is so very blind. Maybe she has other issue's deep inside her which need to be resolved before she can be anything to anyone, including herself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She states that is what "he told her", but she doesn't know if he is or not. So she was truthful with me when she said she didn't know what he was doing, even though he told her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How does this relate to NC? If he was able to tell her anything then they are still in contact.

Hi Tom!

I am thinking that if she was truly sincere about NC with the other man, she would do everything in her power to show you that is the case. She would want to prove it to you.

I think that's the case of all of us FWS's, we want to prove that we are indeed maintaining NC and working on the marriage, it's the only way to win trust back. Do I feel like I'm being intruded upon at times, of course! But I know that each time my hubby checks on me and finds that everything is cool, that's another battle won with the trust and recovery issue. He hardly ever checks on me now.

Like weaver said, you will know it. Until then just keep doing what you are doing, moving on with your life.

TJ, have you decided to give her a chance? Or are you still trying to decide, thus the question?

Tom,

I don't know your whole story, but I would have to agree with others here. Go with your gut/instincts. I followed mine, which unfortuanetly led to Dday, as I'm sure many others can say. Also since we know our WW's better than anyone, they don't even have to answer us do they? We can tell by there body language. As somebody said the burden of proof lies soley with the WS. If they want the M to work they have to be the open book. That is imperative for the WS to know. Have you had a talk with your WW about honesty and truthfulness? Honesty and truth also cover omission in my book.

I asked her if her lover was out of town. She told me then that she didn't know where her lover was. She told me that she didn't care.

This is the problem though.. your WW never answered your question. You didn't ask WW if she knew where he was. You asked if he was out of town. I'm sure this was purposely done on her part, she omitted that part that he told her. Next time she tries to sidestep your question (which shouldn't happen again after you have a talk with her about honesty and truth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) don't let her. Listen carefully to what she says, and call her on it if she doesn't answer your question.

Now all this rambling I'm doing doesn't really matter much if she's not actively trying for a recovery. As I said I don't know your whole sitch so you may have to enlighten me.

native, they are separated. His wife...um...to put it delicately, may have issues. She wants to stay married, can't stand to look at him, wants to stay married, can't stand to talk to him.

I think she's on the fence, but doesn't want to give the illusion that she's on the fence...wants to give the illusion that she doesn't care one whit about TJ.

I think what she REALLY wants is for TJ to beg her to reconcile, no questions asked...EVER..and for her to continue with her selfish behavoir as if nothing ever happened.

Thanks for the update Maddyk.

Okay then this obviously changes things. TJ since you are seperated and possibly filing for DV, are you in Plan B. I can only assume not since your still talking to you STXW.

Then the question I have is what does TJ want? Do you really care what your STXW says or does at this point in your sitch? If she continues to lie, why associate with a lier? Then yes you have been lied, mislead to.

Don't let it get to you though. As you said you don't want this to continue in your new life. So I guess I'd just have to say let your WW lie or do whatever she wants and try not to let it affect you. However if you still want to try and reconcile then I guess you have your work cut out for you.

Just my ramblings, I should have read more of your sitch before putting my foot in my mouth, sorry TJ
Native

native, you didn't put your foot in your mouth. What you had to say is right on, regardless of where TJ or his wife stand on the issue of reconciliation.

BA,
This conversation supposedly took place at during thier last "contact" in early December. She also said she never told him that she didn't want to hear from him again and that he probably thinks it is ok to contact her anytime he wants. Her lover is out of the country so it is probably relatively easy to have NC right now.

Chackler,
Glad you dropped in. Happy New Year. I always like reading you because you seem not only honest with your husband but also honest with yourself. I know that FWS sometimes are tempted to have contact again. My STBX still has feelings of him as her dear "friend". That worries me alot. And as my STBX told me today, she has tried NC(for almost 10 days) and it has gotten her nothing from me.

Maddy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ,
I'm still trying to decide. Still waiting for her to show me something. She claims she has shown me that she will have NC with the OM, and that she has shown me she is committed to rebuilding our marriage. BUT, If indeed there is NC, it may only be because she doesn't have the opportunity to contact him. Like I said above she didn't tell him to stop.

And as far as her committment, it only good for one day at a time and steadily waffles and heavily LB's me. She does not want to do as Chackler says...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she would do everything in her power to show you that is the case. She would want to prove it to you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">, we want to prove that we are indeed maintaining NC and working on the marriage, it's the only way to win trust back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So Maddy, I don't know. I have the kids to think about. I definitely don't want the marriage I used to have with her, it was fake.

I don't know if this is being demanding, but I will not settle for a marriage that isn't honest and faithful. If STBX could show me that... for more than 1 day .... Maybe.

TJ, I think I've asked you this before and you haven't answered..though there may be reasons for that.

Do you have an actual court date or a date with the D is to be finalized?

If not and you think you can stand it, I'd wait this out a little bit and see what happens. Your wife is obviously still very foggy and what others have said is dead-on..she should be making every effort to prove her commitment, but instead she's asking you to take her word for it.

Do I see hope for a GOOD marriage (different than before)..sure! And your wife shows SOME signs..but you know it's not nearly enough. What I get from reading your posts is that you're done with all of this..but you do see the possibilities if your wife can do the right things. If you can..maybe wait it out a bit. I know it's lonely and frustrating..boy do I ever know that!! Only you know how much is too much.

Hi TJ,

I see more of your sitch now and I agree with you that it's NOT demanding to be in a truthful honest relationship. Is there any other kind of relationship/marriage... I don't think so.

IMVHO, tell your WW that if she really wants to show you that she wants your marriage to work then you need to come up with a plan.

1. Write and send the NC letter, you send it.
2. Fill out the EN's questionaire. (honesty is in there!!!)
3. Make small, concrete, measureable goals that you can accomplish in a short period of time. Ie. date night w/ kids if it has to be, maybe later just the two of you. Trip somewhere.

My 2 cnts,
Native

<small>[ January 01, 2005, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

Native, those were pretty good ideas.

However, STBX has told me this evening that she doesn't want to answer any questions about her affair or come clean on anything. And she doesn't want me back anymore either.

Back and forth, back and forth,

Trix was right about the holiday stuff.

<small>[ January 01, 2005, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

Tom:

This gave me a chuckle, I must shamefully admit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> :

"And as my STBX told me today, she has tried NC(for almost 10 days) and it has gotten her nothing from me."

She got the most infinitesimal inkling of what's needed here. Not enough. If she had a clue just how long she'd have 2 "try" NC 2 get a rise out of you, she'd probably run screaming from the room... ...like they all do.

And I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean it in a very positive way. It IS a sign of incremental growth, and that's a good thing, but it's just one tiny link in a whole anchor chain of epiphanies she's going 2 have 2 experience for true recovery 2 ever begin, if it ever does.

It also has seemed like your W has had prior emotional baggage that she's avoided dealing with (that was probably a big factor in her current A) that she'll have 2 address before recovery can begin.

She has 2 stop fretting over what you're doing, just as you have been letting go of worrying what she's doing.

Then, let the epiphanies begin!

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, STBX has told me this evening that she doesn't want to answer any questions about her affair or come clean on anything.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She wants to remain knee-deep in her own sickness and filth.

Step away from her Tom ---> she is only on a fishing trip .... she has no intention of becoming a loyal faithful wife .... she trolling for feelings.

YOU are not interested in what she's offering, she's swimming in the shallow end of the pool.

Something better is yours ... look forward ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep