</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Catholic church says Abandonment and No sexual relations are cause for an Annulment </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also happen to be Roman Catholic..spent my life in parochial schools....

you are only entitled if there was NEVER any sexual contact. If you have children, were married in the church, you can have your marriage dissolved in the eyes of the church for things like adultery. But you are not legally entitled to an annulment after 28 years of marriage.

Why are you even THINKING that way ?

Because, that is the only way his brain works.

Think about it: He counsels weekly with SH...and is asking people for input on the MB weekend? Hmmm. I don't know, but****EDIT****** He constantly seeks to manipulate what he has been told.

Honestly, just look at the way you fight all advice given. Save yourself the trouble. Just hire the PI, prove she's been unfaithful, and get the divorice...

<small>[ January 12, 2005, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RookKev:
<strong> Because, that is the only way his brain works.

Think about it: He counsels weekly with SH...and is asking people for input on the MB weekend? Hmmm. I don't know, but ****EDIT**** He constantly seeks to manipulate what he has been told.

Honestly, just look at the way you fight all advice given. Save yourself the trouble. Just hire the PI, prove she's been unfaithful, and get the divorice... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, isn't this just great advice given to a man who is obviously in pain and seeking advice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

He is seeking advice on a MB seminar, wondering if he should go or not...I KNOW for a fact that my H was unfaithful to ME...I dont need anymore proof than I have...I'm not running out to get a divorce...this man is obviously one who wants to follow the MB principles...Not one who is seeking advice from individuals such as yourself to run out and get a divorce...some people actually WANT to save their marriage!

Why do you have to come on here and be so cruel like that? Unbelievable! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ January 12, 2005, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Hi TA, Sorry I didn't see your questions for me until just now.

Home work consists of listenning to the audio cd's he provides. Reading a chapter or two of the books that he provides, sometimes filling out a questionaire and keeping paperwork like graphs to keep you accountable. This all takes about 3 hours a week. Nothing is done online unless you have a question for Dr Harley.

The actual seminar covered the book his needs/ her needs chapter by chapter. I had already read the book but absorbed much more of it at the seminar. Also you will fill out some questionaires so that they can see where you are in your M and custom tailor the program if need be (if you can't talk without fighting they will start you in the area that adresses this issue etc.)

We stopped MC with SH after the seminar BUT we were in a VERY good place in recovery and continue to be so. If one little problem arises I won't hesitate to call Steve. It seems you are not there yet. I would continue MC with SH. You will meet him there. Nice guy. He even counseled me on my fear of flying for the flight home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I disagree when others say both couples want to do it. If you can get her to go without LBing then I would. Dr. Harley says most of the couples in the program have what he calls a reluctant participant. This person gets special attention and a gentle nudge from the MB staff and Dr.Harley himself will call if need be. It's no secret you make good money so go for it. Nothing to loose.

I want to add one more thing. For me to get on a plane (which terrifies me) and go to a M seminar (which is not my way) sent my wife a clear message that I was sorry for my A and that I was doing everything I could to fix us.

P.S. We DID get a call when we lagged on our homework one week.

Moving...

It's a longer story than you see or know. Maybe it was wrong, or a cheap shot...but man, I just can't tell you how old this story is.

Think about it... you pay out the $? whatever dollars an hour to counsel weekly with SH...then you come to a message board that is DEVOTED to his principles, and ask is his weekend seminar worth it? Think through that with a shred of sanity and thought, now, does that really make sense?

TA, I thought that you understood (based on your response on the other thread) that it was your responsibility to affect change in YOU. The MB seminar is wonderful by all accounts but even good things can be twisted around.

Because your wife has had very little or no say in even the MINOR details of your lives let alone the major ones, the seminar shouldn't be yet another thing for you to hold against her if she doesn't comply. You knew perfectly well that she has no interest in going, why ask the questions in the first place??? It makes you appear to be manipulative. In any case, the replies you get should not be used as ammunition to bolster your "case". Controlling and badgering behaviors need to be eliminated, pronto.

She doesn't want recovery, she wants a divorce. DIVORCE...not much time to get your act together! Your job is to do the work necessary to make her see you with new eyes. You appeared to "get" this yesterday.

YOUR paradigm, NOT hers should be your focus. There is still too much emphasis on her and what YOU think she needs to do and here you've even mapped out the timeline for your exit if she doesn't deliver. This doesn't square with what you said before.

You really need to be acountable for your words TA. You have credibility issues and if it's a problem on this board, it's most likely a problem with your wife also. It's one of those negatives you said you'd go over and think about. Stop and THINK about what you say before you say it. KB

RK, I didn't think TA was questioning if it was worth the money. I thought he was asking details and if it would be a good idea given his situation. Maybe I'm wrong?

Why, for the sake of me, would a person feel the need to ask a 'board' that question when he is paying money to SH for his advice and guidance?

It just seems so very backwards to me, I'd be asking SH if it seems like a smart move...SH ain't exactly dying for one more customer if you know what I mean, it seems there is a never ending supply... hmm, smart career choice actually.. rofl. (Sorry, I know that is sad.)

I know for a fact that Dr harley supports the idea of a "reluctant" spouse attending the seminar. If TA needs to be "manipulative" to get her there then so be it. At least it's manipulation with good intent, with the good of BOTH of them in mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RookKev:
<strong> Why, for the sake of me, would a person feel the need to ask a 'board' that question when he is paying money to SH for his advice and guidance? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point, Why are you asking the board TA if SH says it's a good idea?

P.S. My wife was a bit reluctant at first. Then I told her we would make a weekend of it and go to disneyland as well (seminar was in anahiem Ca)
That's the kind of manipulation I mean.

Why do people TWIST my words. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I never said one damn word about $$$. I could give a damn about money, $1,500 total cost for the seminar and plane tickets is cheap, especially if it saves my marriage. A damn divorce will cost me about 1 Million, her Lawyers fees, maybe alimony, and child support.

Steve told me last week to try and get her to a seminar, that is why I was asking what it consist of. SH mentioned this at the end of our session so we had very little time to talk about it. I want to know what is involved because I want to know if my wife was even willing to do all the homework. She hasn't even filled out her ENQ, nevermind a ton of homework.

I have not said one word to her about any seminar.

KnewBetter, I am working on me only. Steve is the one who suggested the seminar, I told Steve it was too early. He said get her there ASAP, the longer I wait the worse things can get. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I want her to see change in me so she can go there with a good attitude knowing that it may be worth her time.

Hopefully she will come around by March so I can get her to PA where the next seminar is at.

Sleepless, I disagree that manipulating this particular reluctant spouse into going to the seminar is okay because "at least it's for a good reason" is a good idea and this is why:

Originally quoted by TA:

She told me she never has any say in anything we do. Watching TV, movies, dinner, purchases, etc...

She is also living in a home she did not want to buy in the first place. Now, it seems that Mrs. TA has put her foot down. There is no evidence of any affair having occured and she is still determined to separate in June when the kids get out of school. It is TA's job to change if he wants to stay married.

He is no longer in the position of always getting his way, she has had ENOUGH. Dragging a reluctant spouse to the seminar may be effective in some cases but in this one I seriously doubt it will be perceived by her as anything but more badgering on TA's part. If TA were to exhibit some serious behavioral changes, I would imagine she'd be more receptive but this has not happened yet.

My concern was that by soliciting MB advice on the worth of the seminar, it could then be used by him to "convince" her. If he does do this, it is just more of the same disrespectful behavior that has pushed her away in the first place.

He MUST learn to respect her and see her as an equal partner, and she has to KNOW that he does through his words AND his actions for herself. To encourage him to "sell" the seminar to her is not going to accomplish this very necessary goal and in fact may undermine it even further.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Catholic church says Abandonment and No sexual relations are cause for an Annulment </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also happen to be Roman Catholic..spent my life in parochial schools....

you are only entitled if there was NEVER any sexual contact. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is it possible NOT to have any sexual contact if you are a couple and married?

I feel she abanded me, she said she has been thinking about this Divorce for 4 years. In addtion if we have no sex in the next 2 years (if I can make it that long) wouldn't that be considered no Sexual relations.

I want an annulment if we divorce because she is the one who cheated on me, wants a divorce, refuses MC of any kind, and no SF.

If I want to get married again in the Catholic church I believe I have to have an annulment?

Can anyone clarify this for me?

Thanks

TA, Didn't see your post. Don't mention the seminar at all until you absolutely have to for registration purposes. She needs to SEE the changes and have hope that they are here to stay.

Seminars are great but real life is at home and that's where your Real Work is. The seminar is not an easy fix, and you've already got your work cut out for you whether you go or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by knewbetter:
<strong> Sleepless, I disagree that manipulating this particular reluctant spouse into going to the seminar is okay because "at least it's for a good reason" is a good idea and this is why:

Originally quoted by TA:

She told me she never has any say in anything we do. Watching TV, movies, dinner, purchases, etc...

She is also living in a home she did not want to buy in the first place. Now, it seems that Mrs. TA has put her foot down. There is no evidence of any affair having occured and she is still determined to separate in June when the kids get out of school. It is TA's job to change if he wants to stay married.

He is no longer in the position of always getting his way, she has had ENOUGH. Dragging a reluctant spouse to the seminar may be effective in some cases but in this one I seriously doubt it will be perceived by her as anything but more badgering on TA's part. If TA were to exhibit some serious behavioral changes, I would imagine she'd be more receptive but this has not happened yet.

My concern was that by soliciting MB advice on the worth of the seminar, it could then be used by him to "convince" her. If he does do this, it is just more of the same disrespectful behavior that has pushed her away in the first place.

He MUST learn to respect her and see her as an equal partner, and she has to KNOW that he does through his words AND his actions for herself. To encourage him to "sell" the seminar to her is not going to accomplish this very necessary goal and in fact may undermine it even further. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks KB, again you are right on the money. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My wife wanted this house, I'm not sure why you said that. She also wants to keep the house if we divorce, I told her I wanted to keep it and buy her out.

I don't want to Manipulate her into going, maybe in March if she is responsive. I was only seeking advice if she openly wants to go in March.

I want to treat her as an equal. The other day I gave her that letter in her purse asking her if she would complete the ENQ at her convienence. I have NOT said one word since, she told me she read it in a very cordial voice. I said thanks and not one word more. I'm assuming that sometime in the future if she wants to work on the marriage she will ask for the ENQ. Then I'll have my Signal knowing that she is interested in saving the marriage, until then I am not saying one word.

We posted at the exact same time. Good job on the ENQ. Keep it up! KB

I didn't REALLY mean manipulate KB. Maybe a gentle nudge like I did. Tell her he wants to be a better husband and buld a better marriage or make a weekend of it with other fun things (without the kids). That kind of manipulate. I wouldn't just drop it at her feet and say if you want to go let's go.

I will say I'm too new to this stuff to put to much into my opinions.

How about if he did this. Tell her he would like them to go, add some fun stuff and then tell her it's totally up to her if she wants to go.

<small>[ January 12, 2005, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: SleeplessInSF ]</small>

P.S. I wanted to add I was told registration never closes and is open the evening before the event at the seminar location.

<small>[ January 13, 2005, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

I just called her Best Friend and we are having a Surprise Birthday Party for my wife on Sat, Jan 29th. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I need all the Brownie points I can get. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I plan on making this one a doozy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Maybe she will lighten up for the March seminar. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks guys

Andrew