Brownhair, you are right. When OM is around I indeed thinking, "oh please, please just go away" and I certainly don’t like his ‘attention’ as some people has suggested. To the contrary, I feel irritated and frustrated when he tries to chit chat with me and I feel upset about his disrespect towards me and his ignorance of my boundaries, but experience from the past and TWO NC letters have shown me he is a manipulative person with a thick skull who probably likes to get ANY type of reaction (even it it’s negative). That’s part of the reason me and my H has decided to act as neutral and indifferent as possible without making a fuss. You have given me a very good suggestion with your post. Thank you!

Stanley, please stop making false assumptions. Also stop making disrespectful judgements about FWS's in general. Your last statement was VERY disrespectful and insulting. You don’t know me OR my H, so you can’t speak for us and make your own wrong assumptions about how we feel or think. I understand you are a BS and still hurt, but it is not necessary to take your pain and anger out on me (or any other FWS for that matter) by making such statements. I can't help to wonder how your W will feel about your attitude...

Suzet:

It is not my intention to upset you--- trust me. You come accross as a very nice woman, no one disputes that. However, I want you to look inside you.

I don’t think I can LB or DJ you since you are not my wife.

Let me ask you a question:

How would you feel if OM was 100% indifferent to you?

How would it feel to know that he has NO feelings for you at all?

Would your ego suffer (just a tiny bit) knowing that OM thinks nothing of you? That you meant absolutely nothing!

Would it bother you (just a tad) if OM developed a similar friendship with another worker?

Are you sure you do not like any attention from OM? Zero, zilch, nada!

Is there a little recess in your heart and soul that is gratified because OM or someone else is attracted to you?

Now be honest with yourself:

Are you still flattered that he has interest in you?

Lets be frank. The reason WWs do what they do is because they enjoy the attention. Are you telling me that is all gone? You don’t enjoy attention anymore?

If you don’t then you are the equivalent of Mr. Spock (Mrs. Spock) and have no feelings.

Just a few thoughts for brownhair and suzet:

BH,

After reading your post,I was a bit suprised.In your office scenario,look at all the dialogue that went on when suzet SHOULD have said,"Leave my office now or I will speak to the manager"(i.e. harassament).That's it.She gets up and leaves if he will not get the message.If suzet is thinking "Oh please go away" Why is she walking down the same hall with him? Why isn't this being nipped in the bud before he starts talking about the family vacations again?

Your scenario assumes he will give up.What's to stop him from intitiating things YET AGAIN,like now? It's practically unavoidable when you work in the same building which is why almost everyone here including Dr.Harley suggests fnding another job.This OM hasn't gotten it,not through 2 NC letters and certainly not now based on how suzet handled the previous meetings.It's interesting to me how we see this differently.

Suzet,

You can try to be neutral and even ignore this guy but he is clearly stepping over your boundaries and walking with him and even giving him your time of speech is what he is drawing on.He needs to be shut down,once and for all.The threat of harassment or whatever needs to be placed on him if he will most likely not stop.If this were any other lunatic in the office building would you not take action? But,since this is the OM I guess I don't agree with your current way of dealing with this.Nor your H's.If I were you I would be making a fuss to have this man out of my life FOREVER.But that's me.

Good luck to you.

O

edited for typos

<small>[ January 19, 2005, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Stanley,

Any person on this planet with feelings enjoys attention from other people and any person with feelings would like to be ‘liked’ and loved by other people and be considered as a ‘good’ and nice person... Same with me... Of course I enjoyed XOM’s friendship during my involvement with him and of course it was flattering to me...no doubt about that… BUT, XOM’s attention was inappropriate and unhealthy and caused me and my H a lot of pain, hurt and tears. I still like attention…yes…but I seek appropriate and healthy attention from my family, husband and friends of the same sex now… I seek the type of attention which is good, positive and which help me to become a better person. I’m a changed person today Stanley…I’m not the ‘old’ person who had the EA… And I have learned very hard lessons through my involvement with XOM. It took me 18 months to go through withdrawal and recover from residual feelings I had for XOM… That was a very difficult and painful time for me…and because of that AND the pain my EA caused my H, I really have a negative connotation towards any ‘attention’ from XOM now… I suffered from severe anxiety and depression because of my own wrong choices and actions and involvement with XOM... So seeing XOM and receiving ‘attention’ from him will always reminds me of that dark period in my life. I don't want that back... Ever.

Hope this post could help to clarify things and give you some insight into the head of a FWW...

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ January 19, 2005, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Stan, as a FORMER (I have finally earned that "F" in front of FWS), I feel the need to clarify a thing or two. And as a disclaimer, in no way am I speaking for Suzet or any other FWS or WS, for that matter.

Whether intentional or not, you are coming across as extremely disrespectful and insulting to me as one, as I said, that has finally earned my F and the distinction that I am 100% committed to rebuilding my M and in recovery.

For me, recovery is past all of the "feelings" as you imply. It's past the attempt for attention or escaping or whatever the "reason" for the A was for in the first place. It's past the cake-eating. It's all about my W and me and our M. Recovery has not a damn thing to do with the OP anymore.

IMHO, I think you are very confused over your definition of FWW and WW. In your first post to Suzet, you "labeled" her as a FWW still desiring the attention. Today you write:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lets be frank. The reason WWs do what they do is because they enjoy the attention. Are you telling me that is all gone? You don’t enjoy attention anymore?

If you don’t then you are the equivalent of Mr. Spock (Mrs. Spock) and have no feelings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stan, WW's are still involved in the A; FWW's are not. They are in recovery.

At this point in time, I could give a rat's [censored] at what the OW does. But there was a time when I still had feelings; then pity; then anger. Now? Indifference.

Again, I don't know where you and Myrta are in your recovery, but projecting/goading Suzet is insulting to me, as a FWS. Maybe you're trying to convince yourself that there is still the desire for attention.

Beam me up, Scotty.

Octobergirl - you'd be surprised how effective this is. There are a few conditions:
- you should remain calm (show no fear, anger, sadness, understanding - nothing)
- say that you "understand/hear what the other person is saying": this doesn't mean you AGREE with it, but it will keep them from thinking you simply didn't hear or understand them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
- keep repeating what you need to get across until they get it
- don't give in to ANY arguments and be prepared for the "worst" of manipulation - don't flinch
- imagine a couple of protectors/warriors by your side if that helps <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Advantages of this "tact":
- if you stay calm you'll be a lot more convincing than when you're upset
- such a strong stand is very discouraging to manipulating persons and yes, they WILL give up, I have seen it happen.

Octobergirl - saying "Leave my office now or I will speak to the manager"(i.e. harassament) can easily be seen as an "attack", and will lead to a power struggle.

Okkkk,I guess I'll have to take your word on that one BH. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I suppose we all have our own ways of dealing with certain people.I'm more of a strict disciplinarian.As if that hasn't come across here before. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

If I say stay away from me,no one dares to come near me again or they reap the wrath of octobergirl! lol

edited to add:

I didn't see your last post.I prefer the firm once should be enough approach when it comes to dealing with behavior.If I tell someone like a male co-worker,for example,that I do not appreciate being touched,it makes me uncomfortable,I expect to be taken seriously and my boundary respected.I would be upset if the man kept on doing it despite my requests.I just do not put up with repeated bad behavior.I do the same thing with my children.In a firm but very loving way,I tell them what is expected,like not playing ball in my living room(where I have breakables) and if they do it again,then they have to deal with the consequences.I just feel that suzet has given this OM more than enough notice to leave her alone yet he keeps coming back.She has been kind and calm but with some people you have to draw the line.This *I* have witnessed many times too.

<small>[ January 19, 2005, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong>If I say stay away from me,no one dares to come near me again or they reap the wrath of octobergirl! lol </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .
I won't say it easily.. but if I do.. daggers will fly..
So it's better for the other(s) that I use the "broken record" technique <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Stan, WW's are still involved in the A; FWW's are not. They are in recovery.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They are in recovery--- from an addiction.

According to this site the affair was an addiction.

If you were an alcoholic in recovery? -------------- Would you go to a bar every night planning not to have a drink?

Do you think the urge to have a drink ever goes away if you are a recovered alcoholic?

Are you telling me that once the WW puts the F in front of the WW they never have a warm thought about OM?

Originally quoted by Stanley:

Are you telling me that once the WW puts the F in front of the WW they never have a warm thought about OM?

Lol, wouldn't remember the last time Stanley. And if I did during the withdrawal process, so what? It's a PROCESS, remember? Don't blow your own recovery by focusing on the OM, forget the dude. Does it ever occur to BSs that the more they bring OPs up in any way shape or form, they're actually jogging the FWS or WSs memory unneccesarily? If all convo is negative, the FWS or WS may even end up defending the OP, all brought on by the BSs obsession with the OP. FORGET THE OP. Work on the marriage, the A is over and in Suzet's case, long over and done with.

I know your point is that Suzet could be tempted but Suzet's H is comfortable with the way she is conducting herself. If she gets something out of the posts on how to ditch the guy, great! Not every situation requires extreme measures, this may be one. I'm on record for being firm on the neccesity for NC but I'm not going to hold Suzet and her H to that if their POJA is intact on the issue.

To me this thread really should be focused more on how to understand personal boundaries and how to maintain those boundaries rather than Suzet having to defend her POJA with her husband and the lack of feelings towards an invasive OM.

Indifference towards the OP is what you're hearing from Suzette, her H, LINY and me. Indifference, Stanley. That didn't happen overnight but it happened. Warm thoughts don't continue forever obviously, don't make an issue of it. Things change and Suzet, good job with honesty on your part. KB

Gulp!

Great post!

CIAO!

Couldn't have said it better, kb. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Knewbetter, I agree… and also couldn’t have said it better myself… Thanks for your great post and thanks for you contribution to this thread! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Stanley, it’s interesting that you tried to asked me all types of ‘tough’ questions yesterday, but that you didn’t respond after I tried to honestly answer you as a recovered, FORMER WW… Anyway, I do hope my post could help to give you some insight and new perspective.

Blessings,
Suzet

First...for the "squabbling ones"......

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

Just how is bickering and misunderstanding helpful to the poster of the thread. Sometimes, it might be more helpful to simply "hold thy tongue" and let others respond.

Suzet - You had an EA and so did the OM. You are correct that for most men, SEX in an affair is the more difficult to "get over." For most women, the "emotional attachment, the 'did you tell her that you loved her?' is the harder part to deal with.

As such, your husband has forgiven you and has probably rationalized in his mind that "nothing too serious happened because there was no sex."

Add to that the economic necessity of "making a buck," especially since he's just starting up a new business, and he is able to justify in his mind that the OM is "just another customer." Therefore he CAN sell him something and establish an ongoing business relationship because, after all, you need to make money so you can eat.

Suzet, "no contact" applies to both the WS and the BS. In my humble opinion, your husband should have directed the OM to someone else to purchase a computer from and accepted that the OM was not going to be allowed "into you lives" just for the sake of money. No contact REQUIRES sacrifice on the part of both of you.

Now, as for the OM who doesn't seem to "get it," or who is deliberately trying to stay involved in your life for "who knows what possible future involvement," you work at the same place and are in position where some contact is likely to occur. Thus, when it happens(not IF it happens), keep it completely business. Any questions about anything personal, your husbands case, etc. is met with a simple, "That's none of your business." Every time he attempts, you counter.

What makes you think that the OM is over HIS EA with you? Perhaps it's just more of "biding his time." Perhaps it's the thrill of the "hunt." Perhaps he's just really just a immature jerk.

As for your husband, should the OM want another computer, the OM should be told to purchase it somewhere else. By selling him the first one, your husband has given the OM the right to remain in contact regarding anything to do with the item that was sold to him.

Bottom line: No Contact period. Unless the OM is a believer, has confessed to God and sought God's forgiveness, your forgiveness, and your husband's forgiveness for his part of the adultery, there is to be NO contact with him that is not unavoidable. IF he did confess and seek forgiveness, he should be forgiven, but NOT allowed back into your lives to avoid any future temptation for you or for him.

God bless.

edited to add this P.S.;

Was your husband the only person in town that the OM could have purchased a computer from? If not, just why do you suppose the OM chose to buy from your husband? To "help out" financially? 30 pieces of silver comes to mind. So does scheming and deliberate infiltration into your lives.

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Any person on this planet with feelings enjoys attention from other people and any person with feelings would like to be ‘liked’ and loved by other people and be considered as a ‘good’ and nice person... Same with me... Of course I enjoyed XOM’s friendship during my involvement with him and of course it was flattering to me...no doubt about that…

The desire for attention is usually quite high in those who are prone to have affairs. I have not seen one yet who did not enjoy the attention to a high degree. I am once again reminded of the recovered alcoholic who will always have the desire for a drink. Why would he or she go to a bar?

It took me 18 months to go through withdrawal and recover from residual feelings I had for XOM… That was a very difficult and painful time for me…

Suzet, that is a long withdrawal for a so called superficial near EA friendship. If the withdrawal was SO HARD on you why do you put yourself in a position where you may see OM regularly? I think your H is underestimating the event because there was no SF. This may come back to bite him in 10-15 years. I have made the same mistake---- trust me.

I suffered from severe anxiety and depression because of my own wrong choices and actions and involvement with XOM... So seeing XOM and receiving ‘attention’ from him will always reminds me of that dark period in my life. I don't want that back... Ever.

Famous last words. I can speak from personal experience----- I heard that before. The best thing is to stay awake----- do not tempt the devil.

LINX:

Is the affair an addiction?

Yes or no

Forevers, thanks for your post. You have always been very helpful to me and I put high value on your opinions and advice.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What makes you think that the OM is over HIS EA with you? Perhaps it's just more of "biding his time." Perhaps it's the thrill of the "hunt." Perhaps he's just really just an immature jerk.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH, I can’t really tell if OM is ‘over’ his EA with me. I know that OM never viewed our involvement as anything more than just a ‘close friendship’ – probably because there were never any hugs, kisses, gifts, declarations of love, future talks, marriage talk about our spouses etc. involved. Probably OM still thinks he can try to have contact with me because, in HIS mind, ‘nothing serious happened between us’… Or maybe OM IS just an immature, manipulative jerk who can’t respect other people’s boundaries. I honestly don’t know and I really don't care anymore.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Unless the OM is a believer, has confessed to God and sought God's forgiveness, your forgiveness, and your husband's forgiveness for his part of the adultery, there is to be NO contact with him that is not unavoidable. IF he did confess and seek forgiveness, he should be forgiven, but NOT allowed back into your lives to avoid any future temptation for you or for him.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OM has always referred to himself as a believer and Christian, but as you know, there are MANY people in this world who advocate Christianity, but doesn’t show or practise true Christianity in their own life, attitudes and behavior... OM has apologized to me and seek forgiveness for the pain an damage he caused me and my H, but he NEVER apologized to my H personally OR seek forgiveness from my H personally…
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Was your husband the only person in town that the OM could have purchased a computer from? If not, just why do you suppose the OM chose to buy from your husband? To "help out" financially?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH, I don’t know what OM’s true intention was with this... There are a few other computer companies in the town we are living in, but they don’t sell second hand computers and second hand parts of computers OM was interested in. OM knows my H sells first AND second hand computers/computer parts and he was specifically looking for a second hand computer. He also knows my H are an IT specialist who can help with software, installing etc.

Blessings,
Suzet

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Suzet, that is a long withdrawal for a so called superficial near EA friendship. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, my withdrawal period was so long for very private and personal reasons I don’t have the time to go into now... If you ARE however interested in WHY my withdrawal was so unusually long for such a EA friendship and why my recovery was so hard, then you can do a search on my previous posts and read up on it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>If the withdrawal was SO HARD on you why do you put yourself in a position where you may see OM regularly?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You say I put MYSELF in a position where I may see OM regularly??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> What on earth has caused you to make this wrong assumption??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> If you’re referring to the fact that I still work at the same company, then please read my post to Susan on the 1st page of this thread. Please don't pass judgements if you don't know the full story and don't have the proper background.

Suzet

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH, I can’t really tell if OM is ‘over’ his EA with me. I know that OM never viewed our involvement as anything more than just a ‘close friendship’ – probably because there were never any hugs, kisses, gifts, declarations of love, future talks, marriage talk about our spouses etc. involved. Probably OM still thinks he can try to have contact with me because, in HIS mind, ‘nothing serious happened between us’… Or maybe OM IS just an immature, manipulative jerk who can’t respect other people’s boundaries. I honestly don’t know and I really don't care anymore. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, Suzet, let's take this at face value then.

For whatever reason, the "EA" was all yours and only in your mind. The OM never "connected" beyond friendship in his mind. Your husband considers the case "closed."

That leaves YOU. So the problem would seem to still be "between your ears." YOU, for whatever reason, believe that there WAS an affair even if you were the only one feeling that way. YOU need to have separation, no contact, with the OM for YOUR benefit. That's okay. No other reason is needed other than YOU perceive continuing contact to be a problem.

So, we are back to conversations that might occur as "strictly business." YOU have to enforce your own standard of No Contact as best the circumstances will allow.

Your husband doesn't seem to have any problem with the OM as a client, and it really doesn't matter if your husband's business is the "only one in town" that the OM could get the system or parts from. If your husband is "supposed" to "protect you" as part of his role as your husband, and if any such business contact would be a potential problem for you, then your husband should decline to work with the OM simply out of respect for you and a desire to help you "get over" the past. The OM can go elsewhere to get his parts.

Regardless, Suzet, I believe that you are "sensitized" to affairs and the "early warning signs" now. If YOU perceived anything getting beyond mere polite conversation, I think you would throw out the "anchor" extremely fast.

So what you are most likely doing is simply tormenting yourself right now. "Bad girl...can't do anything....can't let OM say anything or [b][/b]* I * might slip into another affair!"

Rubbish. Suzet, you need to understand that you are most likely already Recovered. But you may not want to accept that yet....perhaps because in your mind you think you still need to be watched and punished. God doesn't think so. Apparantly your husband doesn't think so. Christ died so you wouldn't have to be.

Sounds to me like you need to say "thank you" and simply accept the gift you've been given.

God bless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First...for the "squabbling ones"......

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

Just how is bickering and misunderstanding helpful to the poster of the thread. Sometimes, it might be more helpful to simply "hold thy tongue" and let others respond.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can safely assume this was directed at me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

First, I do not post anymore without: some personal insight and experience; and the original post/poster in mind.

Second, not sure how you don't think I did *not* have suzet in mind? (Even if this were not the case, how many times have the posters of a thread gone "off track" and you have not gained some insight or knowledge from that? I don't believe this was the case, but if it were, I apologize.)

Third, if it were not for the plank in my eye, I would not be able to see the sawdust in another's. That "plank" will forever be a part of my past, can't be surgically removed--the reason why all of us are on MB, right? But it's not defining me...and makes me, with the "plank" more aware of sawdust in people's eyes--something that can be removed.

Fourth, this is not a forum where personal attacks are in line. If it is something I can "defend" I will. Not through a counterattack, but the attempt to have the attacker understand.

I'm glad you have given the insight to suzet as you have done--it also gave me some understanding as well.


Stan--yes, an A is an addiction. If what you are getting at is, then as a recovering addict, why is she tempting fate and exposing herself to the addiction? Then, suzet has already answered that. As I am in a very similar situation as suzet, I have too, but would certainly be willing to "discuss" it further--just not on suzet's thread anymore.

Blessings,
LINY

LINY,

Hey, I thought maybe this was in reference to me and Bob....could've been, easily. Anyway, I think we stopped the quarreling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />