Well, guess there are good days and bad days. Starting Thursday, it was a very, very bad day.

Actually my last post was hopeful, nice, sweet. What a fool am I!!!

Found out WH was lying (more) to me. Found out the A was still ongoing, was not "just sex" and was with a totally different person. This real OW works in the gym where his office is. She has spent time with our children and had sex with my WH in his office (among other places)!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Very long story short, I called him Thursday evening when I discovered the truth. He was out with her that very moment! He left me and went to “have drinks” with her. They must have thought they were so smart. I found out on the computer, not by following, trailing, etc. They were convinced I was following her!

He came here, we argued, we fought. He said he was in love with her, he wanted to be with her. He taunted me about having her get a new cell phone number so that I wouldn’t know it anymore. I grabbed his phone off his hip and he tackled me. I am bruised on my arm where he attacked me and lots of bruises on me leg. I was on the floor, sitting, and he ended up on top of me. I called the police. I did not press charges, but his license was suspended and he spent the night in jail because of that.

I picked him up in the morning from jail. His GF had me on the phone for 40+ minutes telling me how much she “knew” my H. I hadn’t slept all night and wasn’t thinking clearly at all. DUMB, I know, but my pride couldn’t stand the thought of her picking him up. He was livid; it was my entire fault he had to wear the orange jumpsuit, etc. We fought more; it was bad… not as physical, but lots of rage. Ended up at MC in the afternoon (together), more calm, sad. It ended with H saying he wanted to D, me saying ok and walking out and then the [censored] has the nerve to ask for some cash!!!!!

Got a new book from the MC, Love Must be tough by Dr Dobson, about half through it. A lot like plan B. Working, trying to do it.

DD is 13 today, went to dinner last night for her b-day and he went. He was looking rough, depressed, nauseous, yuck! Should’ve left him here! The pastor was at the table next to us!!! It sucks for DD, it really does. I acted “normal” and fine as if nothing was wrong… I did this for her, for them. He was the one who was obviously struggling.

Well he came back here afterwards and talked some. Told him I was done, he is free, I am withdrawing support and he can do what he wants. Asked me what I wanted to see happen. I made it clear that this was not a list of demands, more of a “wishlist”. I said I wanted the OW out of his life, I wanted him out of that office (a money pit story for another thread), I wanted him to get a “real” job or go back to school and support his family. I am tired of carrying the load! I told him I wanted intensive IC and MC for us both, lots of prayer, lots of working through Christ, etc.

He left and called a few minutes later. He had been heading to OW’s house but knew it was wrong. Asked me “what if”… what if we tried this for a month and it didn’t work? Then what? I told him I cannot see the future any better than he can. My crystal ball is cracked! Ended up coming back and we talked some more. He slept on the couch and me with three kids in our bed! He was absolutely scarily empty and tired, I didn’t want him to wrap his car around a tree, I do still care what happens to him.

He awoke this morning, got me up at 7am wanting to talk. Said he was breaking up with OW “for now” til he figures out what he wants. I said that was nice, but leaving the door open with her actually makes no difference. He said he was “ending it” with her and said that didn’t mean he was moving back here. I made it clear he was not welcome back here right now.

DD party is soon, he supposedly broke up with OW today. He’s coming here. What to do!! Help!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Momma'sSad:
<strong>DD party is soon, he supposedly broke up with OW today. He’s coming here. What to do!! Help!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Take of DD party first and be civil yet, no R talk with him.

Lay down the ammend for him to come back home ... but he can't go back until he proves it to you to step up as H not just FWH. Make sure to include MC , preferably from MB to help both of you.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Momma'sSad:
<strong> We fought more; it was bad… not as physical, but lots of rage. Ended up at MC in the afternoon (together), more calm, sad. It ended with H saying he wanted to D, me saying ok and walking out and then the [censored] has the nerve to ask for some cash!!!!!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PLease RE-READ your posts and especially the above post. This is the EXACT kind of situation that I feel these MB principles will NOT work for. There is a very serious situation and these episodes speak volumes of how much dysfunction there is in your relationship. Goodluck BUT for the love of GOD, please protect your children from all of this. My God, what horror.

MS

JMO but I am with LM on this the abusive stuff needs to handled before the relationship stuff or affair stuff. Protect yourself. I am sure you have a woman's crisis line in your area. Call them and get some support for the abuse crap.

I am concerned for you.

Tiggy

Tiggy and LM,

While you are both correct about what escalated into where the police came involved...... as long as the WS continues t/b a WS, this is always a possibility. In fact most of the A cases don't escalate more because the BS holds their temper. Sometimes we lose it. Is that ok? No but it is certainly understandable.

Should we jump all over the BS? If it is a pattern, yes they should get help via courts if necessary (this is in addition to counseling). If it is a single incident due to the emotionally charged sitch? Then both sides needs to cool down and of course counseling.

BS' in general absorb a lot, then are often asked dumb stuff, like pay his bills also. That's a load of crap. WS' like to push the BS to the limit and often do. It is a hard line to hold. You will see it over and over again posted here. Many of the BS in these sitches are justified to a certain degree. It still isn't legal but certainly from a moral standpoint it c/b.

Now the best thing here is to help Momma'sSad to get a plan together that will help her situation.

As it is, someone there should go to 'anger managmeent classes'. The police have probably already suggested it.

Whether the WS goes on the straight and narrow is too early to tell. I suspect he will have a few steps backwards at times and Momma will have to learn how to handle this. A good plan B that can be enacted immediately after the 1st one is clearly outlined w/b part of a good plan.

Momma.... I hope this helps you a bit. Let's help you get on a good plan. Right now this is your daughter's day.....concentrate on that.

If your H looks like crap.... how he explains that to guests s/b his issue. You go enjoy the day with your daughter and her guests.

All the best,
L.

Thanks for backing me upthere, you are right. This is something that escalted beyond where it should've. I am not a battered, woman, never have been and never intend to be.

We give to each other as good as we get, not saying I beat him, but sure have been tempted lately. It is all too raw right now.

DD party is winding down, lots of fun for most. He called me at least 6 times beforehand trying to bait me, wouldn't have it. He has disappeared into our bedroom at least 4 times, making himself scarce. I stopped going after him when I ralized he was looking for attention. Only retrieved him for cake and presents.

He is talking to a friend of ours tight now, a very spiritual soul he has been avoiding.

Yes, please, help me find a good plan to do here.
Gotta go, DD,4 is singing Redneck Woman to karaoke! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mama,

I wasn't trying to attack. Good grief no. I was just expressing concern. And I wanted to put it out there for those lurkers that hitting aint cool. I really hope you are able to find a plan and sort this all out. This is the quote that concerned me MS.

Mamma'sSad said I grabbed his phone off his hip and he tackled me. I am bruised on my arm where he attacked me and lots of bruises on me leg. I was on the floor, sitting, and he ended up on top of me. I called the police. I did not press charges, but his license was suspended and he spent the night in jail because of that.

It just sounded more than just him losing it momentarily. It sounded to me like he was really hurting you and that is what I was concerned about. I am biased though. I used to work with battered women. So it could just be me reacting. You're a stranger to me and reading that worried me, that's all. I should have added a big hug too. {{{{{{{Mamma'sSad}}}}}} That is what I was lamely trying to do. Give you support.


Orchid saidWhile you are both correct about what escalated into where the police came involved...... as long as the WS continues t/b a WS, this is always a possibility. In fact most of the A cases don't escalate more because the BS holds their temper. Sometimes we lose it. Is that ok? No but it is certainly understandable.


The above statement made me raise my eyebrow. It is perhaps that I have dealt with the only two wayward spouses that this would never have been a possibility. They weren't physically abusive. They cheated yes and that hurt probably more than a beating ever could but neither one of the WS I have been married to ever raised a hand to me. Ever.

IMVHO an affair can come out of a long line of abuse. But every person that has an affair isn't potentially dangerous at any moment.

Just my opinion and feel free to disreguard. It's all good.

I truely hope nothing but the best for you Mamma'sSad.

Hugs
Tiggy

Originally posted by Orchid

While you are both correct about what escalated into where the police came involved...... as long as the WS continues t/b a WS, this is always a possibility. In fact most of the A cases don't escalate more because the BS holds their temper. Sometimes we lose it. Is that ok? No but it is certainly understandable.

Eyebrows raised here too. In a mature individual violence is simply not an option, therefore also not a "possibility". It's the old "two wrongs don't make a right" argument that has been discussed before I realize, but I really don't like to see it justified as understandable. It is quite unacceptable as a matter of fact. Losing it as a BS as in crying, screaming and maybe pounding a pillow is one thing but instigating or participating in physical violence is entirely another.

No excuses, sorry. We are supposed to be adults, not two year olds after all. Each has to take responsibility for their OWN behavior and that includes controlling one's temper so an argument doesn't escalate into physical violence no matter side of the fence one is on. That means no grabbing, lunging at, hitting, NO physical stuff!

BS' in general absorb a lot, then are often asked dumb stuff, like pay his bills also. That's a load of crap. WS' like to push the BS to the limit and often do. It is a hard line to hold. You will see it over and over again posted here. Many of the BS in these sitches are justified to a certain degree. It still isn't legal but certainly from a moral standpoint it c/b.

All WSs "like" to push BSs to the limit??? Some do true, but it is usually clear that there is either mental instability (as in the chronic abusers) or possibly a complete and total disconnect from the BS. Saying they "like" to push the BS is too much of a projection on the general WS population and mot importantly to say so to a new BS is a diservice because it may fan the flames in the next argument. In the majority of cases, the WSs pretty much want to stay clear of the BS's wrath if they possibly can, this is MUCH more common.

There are also a number of BSs who would make a saint tear his hair out. Just because they happen to be the BS doesn't mean that they are justified in losing it to the point where the police are involved.There is NO justification for immature, primal behavior such as in violence from either party, that is exactly why is it is a prosecuteable offense. Domestic Violence is immoral, no matter what the excuse. I don't care if it is the WS or BS, it's a NO NO, period!

Momma'sSad you do need a plan, because this isolated (?)event should NEVER happen again. He's a jerk, DON'T be one back. If he is physically abusive with you again your plan will have to be different but for right now Plan A is your first step. This link will help you formulate your plan. Take your time on it, printing it and the articles on the links therein would be helpful so that you can refer to it quickly. You can get through all of this without involving the cops, let's keep you safe and get you informed okay? KB

KB,

Not sure why this is a big issue. WS' create a hostile environment in an attempt to get the BS to enable the A. BS' often got off guard with this tactic and when trying to get back on their feet have in some cases, participated in violent acts warranting police intervention. Is that ok? No. Does it happen? Yes. Should it be excused? No. Should it be encouraged? No. Is it understandable given the circumstances? To some it w/b. I understand. I have been taken to those limits. Fortunately for me, the WS was not able to keep himself in check as well. He ended up in the pokey for 2 1/2 days.

New and old BS' need to know that 'losing it' does happen. How to prevent it or reduce these types of episodes is what we do when we vent here. I safely venture to say that there are many more scary events either in thought or happening that we don't know of. To browbeat someone already downtrodden, to push in their face that their act was not acceptable once they have acknowledged it, c/b going to far. Remember for the most part, many a BS are not aware there is an enemy in their midst. The very ones they are trusting are the betrayers.

The piece that surprises me is not about stories like Momma's.....but why they aren't happening more often! With all the high tension....they easily could. The police reports this is a daily occurence in their cities. I am sure they would like to reduce the amount of Domestic Abuse calls they have to answer each day. I think MB offers a valuable service that probably have saved many a WS' life. Though the WS often don't realize that benefit. Some Bs' acknowledged it.

I used to be quite harsh on others. I have since learned to listen before I berate. Of course the more I listen and learn, the more I see how and when to do so..... obviously not as often, but when I do, it is often well deserved. I am not saying I am great....by no means, just more cautious.

Until I went through this A crap, I thought I could handle almost anything. I have witnessed and seen many severe crisis from others around me. What I learned is that in a crisis such as an A, the heart and mind go out of sync. Reasoning often goes out the window for both the WS and BS. This is why it is critical for the BS to get a clear mind, calm heart and pray for patience.

The tactics that help go against most logic. Yet they work. What doesn't work is browbeating a BS who already feels like crap.

As long as Momma knows she walked to the edge of sanity and learns how to stay away..... I'd say this was a vauable lesson that can have a happy ending, at least for her. Ws' are not meant to have a happy ending. Not until they shed their WS persona and return back to humanity.

JMHO,
L.

BTW: I DIDN'T say 'ALL WS put their BS to the limit.' I posted: "WS' like to push the BS to the limit and often do."

I know not all WS' do that. However, the longer a WS remains a WS the greater the chance.

Wow, certainly not meant to cause a fight over domestic abuse. I do appreciate the concern, and I would probably have said the same thing, I get the alarms too (just not with him).

He has been calling, wrinting, etc. I took 6 kids to a hockey game tonight, fun, but hard to take my mind off all this crap.

He is apparently at the farm, where he said he was going. He swears he is done with her, realized a couple of days ago he really didn't love her. Says he cares about her, but not in love with her. Whatever!

I am trying to set him free, unleash him so he stops fighting the trap. Hard, very hard. But I am tired and feel weak...so tired!

Hugs. I am sorry if I started a fight here. I really was just trying to show concern.

Of course you are tired, you are living a life AND dealing with a whole truckload of stuff. Be gentle with yourself, you deserve it. After my first marriage went kaput, I took to hot baths and candles to comfort myself.

Hugs again. I am sorry again. I really just want to offer you a shoulder.

I have a whole box of tissue anytime you need it, okay?

Tiggy

Originally posted by Orchid:

Until I went through this A crap, I thought I could handle almost anything. I have witnessed and seen many severe crisis from others around me. What I learned is that in a crisis such as an A, the heart and mind go out of sync. Reasoning often goes out the window for both the WS and BS. This is why it is critical for the BS to get a clear mind, calm heart and pray for patience.

This is very true and why it is so important not to call any violence incurred during this critical period "understandable". To call it such implies that it is excusable. It is not. I'm sorry that you found yourself in a violent postion with your H Orchid, but it is not helpful to be "understanding" of behavior or contributing behavior that is the antithesis of how MB teaches us to treat each other. This is what I was addressing to you. MB offers BOTH parties valuable tools to avoid out of control situations. This is what we offer to Momma since she is the party posting. If you notice I designated the last portion of the post to her. The former was written for you.

The tactics that help go against most logic. Yet they work. What doesn't work is browbeating a BS who already feels like crap.

I should have started a new thread directed to you since it was YOUR specific comments I was addressing, not Momma's. Explaining the error of instigating or participating in violence during arguments was never intended to "browbeat" anyone, I mean geez it's just plain old fashioned common sense after all but I can see now how you took it that way. I was not aware that you were in a DV situation yourself. I only had your particular post on this thread and the bolded quotes in mind as I wrote it. Didn't mean to trigger you! I am most certainly not in the habit of browbeating BSs. Sorry it came across that way. {{Orchid}}

In any case, Momma didn't attack her husband, HE attacked HER. Trying to take a phone away from someone is a FAR cry from tackling and jumping on them especially when they are larger!

Momma, I was answering some concerns I had with what Orchid said and didn't specifically have you in mind. What I did say is applicable to WS and BS alike (all couples in fact) and should be clearly understood by both. I certainly did not mean to make you feel worse about what happened than you already do! {{{Momma}}}

Now it's time to start fresh. You do want to be able to avoid any thing remotely like this event in the future. My comments were NOT a 2 x 4 directed to you by ANY means!!! The links I provided will get you off to a very good start and I know that they will help you to strenghten your resolve and get through this with dignity and grace. I'm certainly rooting for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> KB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by knewbetter
This is very true and why it is so important not to call any violence incurred during this critical period "understandable".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are taking Orchid's comment "understandable" out of context , and that is confusing.

Orchid said:

"Sometimes we lose it. Is that OK? No "

and then she finished with "but it is certainly understandable."

"Understandable" in the sense of human reaction to the abuse that IS an active affair under the nose of a betrayed spouse whose family is being torn to shreds. Rather akin to the Moma bear's reaction when her cubs are threatened ... better take those barred teeth seriously ... and BACK OFF!

Orchid in no way condones violence, and that is made very clear by Orchid's original comment, if not taken out of context.

Pep

Originally posted by Pepperband:

You are taking Orchid's comment "understandable" out of context , and that is confusing.

Good point Pep. I found the response to LM and Tiggy to be surprisingly incongruent with the actual situation and advice. That is what led me to look at her words askance and what caused me to question the meaning of the entire post.

If I misunderstood I stand corrected, however the blanket warning to not engage or instigate physical confrontation (WS and BS) should be taken seriously no matter how "understandable" the situation may be. Thanks to this thread it's out there now for any future or current posters. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who did not grasp her true meaning so at least now that's cleared up. All for good, after all.

Orchid in no way condones violence, and that is made very clear by Orchid's original comment, if not taken out of context.

Then we are on the same page, excellent! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> KB

WOW ORCHID...

IF that doesn't paint a perfect visual of what a WS does...

you nailed it...

WS' create a hostile environment in an attempt to get the BS to enable the A.

what a key key factor to keep in the for-mind when dealing with a WS...no matter the plan..

ark

I think I will quietly find the door and head back to the recovery board. I am at a loss for words. I wasn't brow beating any BS. I wasn't trying to kick her when she was down. And honestly Orchid I am confused. Are you thinking that Momma'sSad attacked her husband? The way I read her post is she had many bruises where he attacked her.

Well, I am leaving before I do any more damage here. Just for the record, Orchid you did not describe either of men I have been married to that went wayward. Too much generalization going on here for my style.

Good luck Momma. I really hope you get the plan you need to be happy and safe.

Tiggy<----Finding the door.

Tiggy, LM and KB,

To those where my posts may have seem vague, I aplogize. Pepper clarified my stance best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thanks Pep.

I used this current experience of Momma's as a warning how NOT to let it escalate to something worse. It had all the symptoms to do so, right? The straw that could have broken the camels back was within reach. Did I panic and post it as such? Maybe..... I certainly did not want to see another episode happen in her household.

Momma seems to be doing better. Her WS is now reflecting a bit and that's progress.

The scary piece is how often these episodes happen to the BS. It is almost daily and the fear of it actually turning into an domestic violence case as the epereinces reported here are waaay to many. 1 is too many. That is why my red flag warning went up. I know Momma did not attack her H, but if he kept it up, she could have and maybe there would have been no support to stop her.

See many a BS who have posted here say stuff like they have no immediate support. That's scary. Posting and venting here @ MB helps a lot. We gotta know that this place is just as much a relief valve for some as a recovery point for others.

I am not for violence, either way. But I am for protection. If we personally have not expereinced it.....then listen closely when other report they have..... it will truly be a learning expereince that could ultimately save our lives. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

All the best,
L.

I have experienced it as a child. I was beaten every way known to man. I have also watched women go back to men who severely hurt them later or worse killed them. I knew one woman that happened to, he shot her and she died at 28.

I really don't care if she picks a fight with him or not. A lot of battered women in fact instigate the fight to get it over with. Check out the cycle of violence.

Battering is more serious than worrying about whether she will feel guilty someday if she hits him back. It can be life threatening and needs to be dealt with seriously.

JMHO and now leaving to fume somewhere else.

I hope you never have to go to a funeral of a woman who died at the hands of a batterer.

Peace
Tiggy

oh my...

I feel like we are fast forwarding through this mess and I cannot keep up.

Our 4 yr old DD cried herself to sleep, sobbing "I want me Daddy" and waving her little arms in the air. I tried to call him to help calm her down, but he was apparently at the farm, no good signal there. I left a voicemail so he could here. He accused me earlier of exaggerating the children’s pain as a way of manipulating him, I didn’t think he would believe me. I awoke to his call, saying “I will do anything you want… I will leave my office, I will be a house-H, I will never ever see her again, just make it stop!!”

I told him I was not doing this to him, he did this to himself. He said he would resent me if I made him leave his office. That I’d won. What a shell of a prize, huh? I told him I was not taking him back like this. I deserve a whole and healing man, a man who puts God first in his life and reveres his wife and family beyond anything else. I did not deserve anything less.

He wet to church this morning! The early service, without me. He said he wasn’t going to tell me cause he was not trying to earn brownie points or anything, just felt pulled to this place. We went to the later service, just me and 6 kids!

He met us for lunch after. He was sullen, quiet. I guess I shouldn’t have, but I said something about his office. After he mentioned his back is still hurting (he is still herniated after all) I said he may end up losing his office for one reason or another.

He got mad at me at that point, back to moping and crappy attitude. Says I was trying to control him with that. Not what I meant, I think… I don’t know. TBC…

MOmma,

Sorry for the ruckus I caused. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But I think you are handling it well. As long as the confusion stays on the side of the WS and doesn't creep into your corner, you can deal with it. He will eventually see it as 1 sided anger instead of 2.

R U in counseling?

L.