I know weekends are a terrible time to post on here, but I'm still looking for advice and some sort of comfort that I'n doing then right thing.

I woke up this morning and my wife started in on me again - here's an email she sent me:

"I'm really sorry it has come to this. We've been through a lot together and I wish we could get through this on good terms, but I know that if you don't get what you want out of me it will be very bitter. That's really how it's been all along. It looked like I had some control, but now I realize you have been running my life by manipulation for 20 years. I'm sorry the situation between me and George has hurt you. If this were a perfect situation I would have ended our marriage before getting involved with someone else, but I made a mistake and we are now stuck dealing with it..."

I have been spinning my wheels seeing how I could possibly have been manipulating her for so long - it makes no sense - she's earned the nickname "Princess" from all her friends because of the way she demands that everything go her way - even between she and them - and that's how our whole marriage has been - I didn't even mind getting her cups of coffee and taking them back to get the right amount of creamer in them. She won't tell me how I've been manipulative - says thats why she wants a third party there (MC) - which is fine with me - but it all seems so backwards. I've been a virtual doormat for so long - and it's hard to see how a doormat can manipulate - except maybe keeping you from getting mud on the floor.

I totally admit I took advantage of her for a few years when she was working full time and I was working part time, but I've worked very hard at changing that, doing all the overtime I can, evenb worked two jobs for a while. I try to do all the housework....

The line that she wrote "...but I know that if you don't get what you want out of me it will be very bitter..." has been used over and over since I confronted her on her affair - I told her I want a happy, loving marriage and that's what I intended to work on, and that if she wanted to leave, that would be her choice - but other than saying that I believe that divorce is the worst possible situation out of all possible scenarios, and that it would ruin the kids doesn't seem to equate (in my mind) with me 'making things bitter.' - Isn't that her making tings bitter? And, if wanting a happy loving marriage with her is so awful to her - why in the HEKK ddoes she want to go to an MC anyway?

This is making me crazy, I don't get it. We're going over to her parents today and she still hasn't told them about her affair like she said she was going to.

Dang, I mean, she's even accused me of opening all her snail mail and checking on it - I NEVER open ANY mail - she's always loved to open it, I always leave it sitting for her - even stuff I get, because I know she loves to open things.

How and I supposed to address this stuff?

David

<small>[ January 22, 2005, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That's really how it's been all along. It looked like I had some control, but now I realize you have been running my life by manipulation for 20 years. I'm sorry the situation between me and George has hurt you. If this were a perfect situation I would have ended our marriage before getting involved with someone else, but I made a mistake and we are now stuck </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">David, don't beat yourself over this. Fog talk and justification for her A is what this is. How long has it been since you made the changes in you? Keep working on you and caring for your kids.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>David, don't beat yourself over this. Fog talk and justification for her A is what this is. How long has it been since you made the changes in you? Keep working on you and caring for your kids. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I first started trying to be more empathetic and caring and unlearning all the 'guy' responses to women's questions about 6 years ago when her sister died and she was so upset and felt that I hadn't responded how I should (it devastated me too - I loved her sister. No, not THAT way).

After that, I had an EA about 4 yearsr ago, when that came out, I started trying to just be as humble, submissive and appologetic as posssible - big mistake - that made things worse 'cause she took total advantage of it and I started resenting the fact that if I didn't do something, she'd bring up "But you had an affair - you lost all your rights....etc).

And then, in Sept I found this website, worked thru all the tools (by myself - cause she won't touch them) and started trying to figure out by deduction what her ENs might be. Spent a lot of time trying to be the Giver to her Taker, as is suggested in how to win your love back by Dr Harley.

She still takes total advantage of that, and has now found an OM who 'woke her up to how awful I really am' - so, I guess the answer depends on what steps I've taken. From and MB point of view, about 4-5 months. Not long, but she's trying to shorten it by the day....

David

Fog babble, as FF stated. Pure fog babble.

Now you need to realize this is a WS talking. If you are so manipulative, she would have left you with or without an OM.

Get smart and let your princess work her way out. Let her work hard to get out of this manipulative M.

When the WS threw that at me..... it was not deserved to the degree he and OW meant it to be. It was a tactic that should work on normal people because there w/b TRUTH to it. But there wasn't..... so I learned to reverse babble.

I took the WS babble and gave it back to him. In my case I would say stuff like:

Ws: You are too controlling.

BS: I am controlling but not in an abusive or extreme way. So try another excuse.

WS: You want to check up on me all the time.

BS: Well let's see, you have been unfaithful, a liar and a cheat. If this were your employee or someone you had trust in what would you do?

WS: Well this isn't an ER/EE R.

BS: You're right. It is more than that, that makes the trust issue more important. So I probably am not checking up on you enough. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

WS: You can't tell me what to do.

BS: You are right. I can't but if you don't start doing the right things there are things I can do.

WS: Like what?

BS: Like.... hm.... nope you are babbling too much right now to have a logical conversation. Talk to me when you are sane. In fact, talk to me when you revert back to my H. I hate talking to a babbling WS.

Those are examples. Most of it happened that way between me and my WS. This was after a long time of trying to be nice to him. After a while, the nice wasn't working. I reverted to reverse babble. I had done my plan A and was now progressing to plan B.

Talking to insane people can drive a sane person crazy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Orchid, you are so good at RB - when I try it, I turn into a worse babbling idiot. Any pointers? What gave you the clues as to which phrases to ues?

David

Practice. I used the bathroom mirro. You may have to go for a drive and hope no one is watching. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Well, here's a new one. I just walked into the bedroom and she said, "Ive been thinking of a way to make this easier - why don't you move out and live with your brother. That would remove a lot of the stress between us...."

I just looked at her, and then walked out of the room.....

Anyway - the car mirror thing, eh...heh heh. Okie. People think I'm crazy anyway cause I sing in the car even though my stereo doesn't work...

You are still very new at this, so of course you are having problems. Stick with us and keep posting.

You have to realize that this has little to do with you. Your wife is like an addict that has found her drug. She will make no sense, and rewrite history.

What helped me most was putting WH on the back burner and not giving him so much power in my life. I decided to use the MB principles, but not to depend on him to do anything to help me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tanelornpete:
<strong> Well, here's a new one. I just walked into the bedroom and she said, "Ive been thinking of a way to make this easier - why don't you move out and live with your brother. That would remove a lot of the stress between us...."

I just looked at her, and then walked out of the room.....

Anyway - the car mirror thing, eh...heh heh. Okie. People think I'm crazy anyway cause I sing in the car even though my stereo doesn't work... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">....and the RB retort:

BS: You are right about the stress needing t/b reduced around here. Those who have betrayed the family by having an A, should leave by...... which suitcases do you want me to bring down for you?

Practice, practice, practice.

Hi Orchid:

I'm still hesitant about the RBs - maybe I'm too hurt to think well enough to use them - I feel they'd come out as LBs. But I did just read thru Trueheart's letter in your signature.

That shook me to my soul. I don't know if my wife would even consider it right now, but it says everything I feel for her - all I'm willing to do.

It made me cry - this is getting ridiculous - a 47 year old guy crying just about everyday. But it is so true. Thank you for keeping it available to everyone.

I have my doubts that my marriage will survive, but if there ever appears a light in the fog, I'm going to give her a copy of that letter.

Thank you

David

Great, I just found out something now that has me wanting to swaer and throw things. I am so angry, and even though I'm a Christian, I still feel like laying out a streak of blue language that would make trees wilt. We had money set aside for the kid's tuition (we have two of them in private school). I just found a bank draft where my wife gave her sister 3000 dollars. That puts us to way below the next term's tuition - in essence it nearly drained our bank account.

I asked her why she did that - she said, well, I owe her that money. I said, well, why couldn't you have given her part of it, and I would send her money out of my paychecks to cover the rest.

She said it was because I had been unemployed for 4 month's earlier this year (I did draw unenmployment while looking for work) and I needed to learn a lesson. She demanded that I now get either another job or request more overtime so that I can make up for the wrong I did to my kids by using up their money fooling around this summer. I worked 60 hours last week, 50 the week before, AND I have to get the kids out of school, get them home make sure homework gets done and feed them every damned day before I go to work. How in the HELL am I supposed to come up with MORE work + keep the house up? The only choice I see is putting them into public school, which will give her one more tool to use to show how bad a father I am - can't even keep my kids in a good school.

I have about HAD it with this crap. Everyone tells me to be patientm and loving, but HOW do I LOVE this???? It was WRONG, it showed how important her kids are to her - at least in relation to her sister (who hates me for eing such a bad husband as to drive her sister into the safety of the OM).

Damn all this.

why does this thing post some messages twice?

<small>[ January 22, 2005, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

What is she doing for work? Why did she borrow $$ from her sister? Why were you not informed if the $$ was for family use.... or was it used for family use?

BTW, children in public school is not a sign of a bad parent. She is fog babbling again and you fell for it. Now get up off the floor, let's dust you off a bit and wipe up that sputter coming out from you (you look angry now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). You should be angry.... WS' are crazy at best.

Work on the RB and if you can't take it anymore, take a look at plan B. If she can have an A and you are handling the children, then she can go live elsewhere. Let the OM foot her bill.

Be safe.....stop seeing red. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

ps: double posts happen whe you hit add reply to quickly.... sometimes the MB buttons get stuck.

Hi Orchid

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> What is she doing for work? Why did she borrow $$ from her sister? Why were you not informed if the $$ was for family use.... or was it used for family use? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She doesn't work - she's a f/t law student - good one at that, too, I'm really proud of her. The problem is that she wants to live like a lawyer on law-school wages. So while my unemployment would have kept us going in a reaonably priced apartment without full cable television, etc. Basically she gets scholarships, grants, and some big loans keep 'our' lifestyle. If I'd had my way we'd be living a lot cheaper till she graduates and we can have two salaries to support us.

In the meantime, for the past few years, we have always used part of her fall term loans/etc. to pay for half of the kid's tuitions, and her winter term loans for the other half.

My checks pay for all the bills, food, etc. The remainder of her loans, etc, go to tweaking her car stereo and buying tons of new clothes and shoes, and going out with friends.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>BTW, children in public school is not a sign of a bad parent. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that, however, the schools in our region are not among the top schools in the country, to put it mildly. I have tried hard not to expose my kids to smoking and fighting, etc...And if my son comes home beaten up for loving to talk about birds (his favorite topic), I will be the bad parent for not protecting them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Work on the RB and if you can't take it anymore, take a look at plan B. If she can have an A and you are handling the children, then she can go live elsewhere. Let the OM foot her bill.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm trying the RBs but they seem so much like LBs its hard to do it. And of course, while she still sees the OM, 'things are over - he has a couple of other girls he's scr**ing'. I don't know how to do a Plan B with her - she is EXTREMELY controlling,and a very good law student....

David

David,

I can understand your delimea (sp???).... a WS is not a smart person in all aspects of their lives.... that is the key to help you stay on top of this stuff. Keep reading and posting here. be open to ideas on how to lessen your burden..... learn how NOT to enable or fund her A. She may have to learn to do with less in order to keep the A.

Practice reverse babble or read up on plan B so you really understand who and what is involved. Right now you can't work on recovering your M. YOu need to concentrate on protecting the life of yourself and children. WS' don't care in a sane and noraml way abou their families....they periodically do but not enough.....

Plan B is for you to protect your love.... not to teach or help her. Do you understand that? Let us know. It is vital you understand the goals correctly before you implement. Also implementing in 1 shot has a greater effect than in stages.

take care,
L.

Thanks, again, Orchid, for your kindness, understanding, and wisdom.

I think I'm in some kind of fog here too - I know I can't change my wife - I've been a student of psychology for long enough to know that - where I'm stuck is how do I show my wife that I do love her and still manage to protect that love and my kids as well?

I've been trying for years to get her to realize that we've been living beyond our means - I don't have the education necessary to bring in that kind of salary, and I don't fall for pyramid schemes. The problem is that I made the mistake of allowing her to control the money in our family - the temper tantrums and fights we had when I tried to change things just made me back off, throw my hands in the air, and go "Oh well, one of these days it will catch up with you." To a certain extent it has - she bought a car a few years ago, and never made a payment. Of course, it was taken back, but we've been switching banks to stay one step ahead of a 20K garnishment for years.

Yesterday, I got all my info to set up a separate account in my own credit union thru work - I wanted do electronic deposit in there, she could give me a notice of how much she needed to pay a bill - she flipped out completely (in front of the kids) - saying it was one more proof of how much of a manipulative controller I am. I knew it was at least part of her fog, but I still don't know what to do - she wants me to put it into our co-bank account, but I don't want to. On the other hand, these outright rude, disrespectful, frightening, and mean attacks that I am getting from morning to night are really getting to me. (Oh - it is time for my Prozac <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

On a much happier note - this made my day. She finally told her parents what she had done, and started in on how I was the cause and how evil I am, and the both laid into her about being a fool, that she ws throwing away the best they have ever known. (They've been my parents since my dad died and since my mom is about three bricks short of a four brick load). I guess she spent half the night crying and drinking beers at a friends house. Only thing that bothers me is that she drove home - I really wish she'd stop that - she's going to get hurt one of these days....or arrested.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Plan B is for you to protect your love.... not to teach or help her. Do you understand that? Let us know. It is vital you understand the goals correctly before you implement. Also implementing in 1 shot has a greater effect than in stages.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B is really frightening - I don't see how I could force her to leave. I do understand that it is to protect my love (for her, I take it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) But I do NOT understand it enough to even think about implementing it yet. It would be nice to be able to fix things around here - move to a cheaper place, arrange better living arrangements, etc...make life what I've wanted for a long time. But implementing it is something I am not really ready for....

David (dying slowly inside)

Big Question:

Today is our Anniversary. I've been planning on buying her a kind of special gift that I know she would love - been planning it for a long time.

But our situation is so different now - I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to buy it stal and give it to her, or hold off untill things change.....which could mean she may never get it....

I don't want this to look like I'm trying to change her mind or anything - it's been planned for a long time, but right now, just about anything I do for her she accuses me of trying to 'buy her back'.

Not sure what to do.....

Well, you are in Plan A right? Well then, I think that your wedding anniversary should be recognized. During my wife's A, I was the only one to do anything for the anniversary three years running. But I did it. She says now that was one of the ways she knew that I was serious about the marriage. That I would give a gift to and celebrate a marriage to someone that was actively hurting me. Very convicting stuff.

So, do you love her? Do you feel that you should spend this money? Are you giving to give, or to get something in return? Answer those questions, and I think you'll have your answer.

In His arms.

Hi Mortarman - you gave me the answer

Yes, I love her very much, I know that under normal circumstances this would make her very happy, and no, I'm not giving to get anyting in return. It's from me to her.

ooops

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>