I never counseled with you, but my C once told me forgiveness doesn't mean you have to put yourself in the position of continuing to allow someone else to treat you badly.

I'm sure forgiveness isn't even on the table for you at this point, but the protection you are putting in place for yourself and your children is a positive course.

Steve's actions are horrible and have been enacted against you, but his behavior is about the twistedness inside of him, not you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He'll have to fight this battle on his own because he has deliberatly cut himself off from your care.

Get some food and rest. Sending you thoughts and prayers of strength and purpose.

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

hi cerri...

i didnt mean to come accross as questioning your decision....i meant that the liability issue loooms large with greedy lawyers and you dont need that hassle...much luck to you...thanks to all in here for listening to me and everyone...there is geuine concern and friendship on this site....
dan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CarenMc:
<strong> Okay, I understand the concern that the posters have for Cerri's well being, but how can you question her decisions?

She is obviously quite versed in this particular subject, I believe that she knows what she's doing and if she is willing and able to repair her marriage, then she should.

We don't have to live with her husband, we don't interact with him on a daily basis, we can only know him from what we read about him. I assume he is multi-faceted person, that has good qualities as well as bad.

I think that these decisions should be left up to Cerri, as friends we should offer support without giving advice and support whatever she decides, then as friends that decision should have your unwaivering support.

I know that is one of the main reasons I come to the MB boards, I can put my feelings out here, without being judged....it's something that I can't get anywhere else, people in my real life are judgemental because they don't wish to see me get hurt again, I understand this, but it doesn't mean I want their unsolicited advice.

So, Cerri, although we have just met, I offer you my support.

-Caren </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Caren! I dont think it is a matter of people questiong her decisions, but rather her ability to make rash decisions NOW!

Penny is in a state of shock right now and although she KNOWS what she needs to do, the ability to make rational decisions is beyond her right now..and that is where her staff at **edit** will come in and help her. I know the people over there are taking good care of her!

It was only 11 months ago that my dday happened and I remember oh so vividly the state of shock I was in for days. I was all over the map for months! Penny is more grounded than most, so I dont think that she will take long before she gets back on track!

I have no doubt in my mind that she will make it thru this. She has helped me and many others see and stay the course...It is because of her that I am where I am today and my H is not home with me...and yes, that is a good thing...cuz I would still be living in the abussive sit. I was for years before!

Penny, I am thinking of you non stop!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>
I told a client this week when she was concerned about her partner coming home too soon that she obviously didn't know how anal I am about conditions. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL, I believe it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Cerri (Penny),

{{{{{{{Cerri}}}}}}} First of all, color me dumb; I didn't realize that you were the same person! I don't think I've ever spoken to you but I wanted to offer you support and tell you that I'm so sorry for what you're going through. Obviously you're wonderful with supporting others here and on your other board, so I hope that you'll get the support you need and deserve.

Reading your post was like reading a fiction story. It's hard to take in. You're amazing to have forgiven your H for his past indiscretions. I don't know if I would have been that strong. It sounds like he does have some major personal issues going on. Has he been in constant IC? Has he been diagnosed with a sexual addiction? It's so hurtful to think that his last indiscretion was with someone "meaningless", and it makes me think even more that it's a severe problem on his part.

I wish you well. I have a Wiccan friend, and she gets TONS of support from her church and from her Wiccan friends. They all seem to appear and rally for each other. I hope that you have the same support. I hope that you can take care of yourself at this time--remember to eat, try to sleep, take one breath at a time. Your children need you. Take care!

CC

Personally, I'm amazed at the difference 12 hours has made... and I suspect that things will change fairly quickly over the next few days. I don't know what will happen with Penny and Steve's marriage. It is an unbelievably difficult thing to have to step back and know that there is an utter limit to what I can do to help.

I am, though, continuing to hope for the healing of everyone involved. And at this point, that's a lot of us.

Pardon me for being blunt, but after reading this:

~~he's cheated on three wives, hired hookers, hung out at strip clubs, kicked his wife and baby daughter out of the house so he could move his affair partner in, and he's out of our home now because of his severe verbal abuse of me and the kids.~~


and NOW he has cheated again.........YOU are the one making yourself m iserable by allowing this man in your life. And now you are 'leaving the doors open for marrige' again??????????

Just what is it going to take for you to wake up here? You seem like a really intelligent woman, but this man has you under his thumb like there is no tomorrow.

I know you are in pain, but for heaven's sake - WAKE UP! You are wanting to 'work out your marriage' with a man who continually cheats, HIRES PROSTITUTES, and is physically abusive????? Am I missing something here? Do you know the health risks he is bringing home to you and your kids? I am a nursing student, so let me explain.....

Research has shown that 80% of all adults have genital warts. The virus can lie dormant in men for up to 10 years but still be spread. Many women don't realize they have them because they begin to grow in th e uterus. You can also get genital warts in your throat from performing oral sex. Eventually the warts from a womans uterus will spread to the outside of her labia. THERE IS NO CURE FOR GENITAL WARTS.

That is just ONE example of what you are dealing with. There are many diseaases out there that can be spread by sexual contact and even condoms will not protect you from them all. Medical tests will not even see some of them until 6 months after the fact.

Why do you keep putting yourself through this? At this point, your pain appears to be a result of your own doing. Do you REALLY think some 'contract' or 'boundaries' are going to stop this man?

Move on while you still have some dignity.

Sorry for being so harsh, but this just blew my mind. Right now you are nothing but a sitting duck waiting to get shot.

Cerri,

Something to think about: perhaps making the statement that if Steve ever cheated again that the marriage would be over should never have been made.

I only say this because I made the same statement after my H's first affair, only to find that I still wanted to fix our marriage when affair #2 was uncovered five years later! I meant it when I said it. I truly did. Just like I had always said if I had a husband who cheated I would kick his butt to the curb (and I didn't do that, either, when affair #1 was uncovered).

It doesn't mean we are weak-willed and can't keep our own boundaries. It just means, to me, that such statements go along with not making promises you can't keep. Marriage is a complex thing, and whenever something happens (good or bad) it takes time to sift through what happened to arrive at an answer that makes sense at all.

My heart and prayers go out for you.

~ Snow

Cerri,

Snowbelle wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It just means, to me, that such statements go along with not making promises you can't keep. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I think the most difficult promise to keep is made to ourselves.

My prayers are with you and your family.

Carol

CapitalC - You make excellent points.

Several people on this thread have said similar things, though you're perhaps the most blunt of them. There is certainly something to be said for understanding when things haven't changed. Self preservation is extremely important in any such situation.

In this case, well, Penny and Steve have a long history and have fought through many difficult issues. This is the first of this particular difficulty in five years. That doesn't excuse what happened. It does, though, maybe put it in a certain context.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Snowbelle:
<strong> Cerri,


Something to think about: perhaps making the statement that if Steve ever cheated again that the marriage would be over should never have been made.

It doesn't mean we are weak-willed and can't keep our own boundaries. It just means, to me, that such statements go along with not making promises you can't keep. Marriage is a complex thing, and whenever something happens (good or bad) it takes time to sift through what happened to arrive at an answer that makes sense at all.

My heart and prayers go out for you.

~ Snow </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Snow:

Interesting way you look at things I must say. I can't say I agree with you even a little bit on this, but that is probably nothing new. This whole situation is very sad and tragic.

LM

penny...
as i learn more i believe that i have changed my view...i am so sorry that you have endured this...i have no credible advice for you...good luck my dear...
KA

Actually I can relate to Snowbelle 110%! I, too, said I would never stand by my H if he cheated on me... yet I did and didn't regret it til now.

I also told him "never again" and yet here I am!

You never know what you can do and take until you have "been there and done that"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Momma'sSad:
<strong> Actually I can relate to Snowbelle 110%! I, too, said I would never stand by my H if he cheated on me... yet I did and didn't regret it til now.

I also told him "never again" and yet here I am!

You never know what you can do and take until you have "been there and done that" </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, I have done it also. You are right, and I agree with your statement:

You never know what you can do and take until you have "been there and done that"

NEVER in a million years would I have thought that I would take my xWW back after infidelity. BUt I did rather easily and enthusiasticaly. And, yep...I in the end regretted it becasue she did it again. If I took her back AFTER YET ANOTHER infidelity, I would only have myself to blame for accepting this behavior. I made a promise to myself and my wife (after the 1st time SHE WAS CAUGHT)that one of my DEAL BREAKERS in the future would be that should she ever betray me and our marriage again, that would be "it" for me. You see, at this point, I could not use the statement you just made: You never know what you can do and take until you have "been there and done that"...because NOW I have been there and done that......not being true to myself and my boundaries would have only led to more heartache and betryal down the road for me......and FOR ME ( I fully understand that this is a VERY personal decsision) , I could not live with myself if I moved my boundaries and rationalized yet another betryal. That is my opinion. My marriage did not make it, but in the END, I consider myself a SUCCESS because I am a happier, more fulfilled person than I have ever been. I will someday remarry, and it is that person who will bear the fruits of my personal struggles this past year. A failed marriage in no way shape or form defines me, just as a Former WS actions should not define them. If the original poster wants to remain married, she will need to find a way to take back the promises and move the boundaries. Perfectly fine...but lets be honest about it here.

This is all so depressing. My sincerest condolences go out to the original poster. Some people are just "wired" differently, and despite everything that we may "give" them, they will still betray. Filing all of the EN's in the world just doesn't do it sometimes. They are who they are. All so sad.

LM

Penny,

Sorry its come to this. I guess its time to move on... I can tell you are a strong woman. You'll do fine.

I imagine this is going to be really tough for you given your job. Being so focused on saving other peoples marriages, it'll be hard to let yours go. Also you'll probably be triggered on a daily basis. But hopefully it will accelerate your journey through the pain and hurt and you can get on with your life faster.

All the best with your new life!

Miker

Loving someone can really SUCK.

I guess the one thing you can take solice in is the fact that the Problem is NOT you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This guy obviously has issues to deal with, most likely from childhood according to Dave Carder (Torn Asunder).

Only you can decide what to do, God will only give us as much Pain as we can handle? How much more can you endure? Is it worth it? Do you move boundries again?

Don't consider your job when making this decision. Your marriage has nothing to do with giving great advice.

I'll pray for you and your family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Andrew

As one healer to another, I can understand how it is you would be willing to want to save your family and marriage.

I know. Tried for 3 years myself. In the end, had to save ME. He would not willingly change.

That is something we must discuss here. Why. Why did he do this? It is based on a self gratification issue. He felt he could. His past behaviors show he has lack of control in some areas. Especially alcohol and sex. I am gonna guess as your H, he sought help and you got him good help. But did he change. I am thinking no. I am thinking he could have been living day to day dealing with who he is by pushing those feelings under the surface.

Once, even after our D, in mid 04, my x told me "don't you get it? You're better off now. You don't have to deal with somebody who's done this stuff before...and could do it again. I think I will never cheat on her. Right now I am happy." And I found out that he's cheating from a patient of mine (xh's secretary's husband) and I didn't even look for the info. It was handed to me.

Could it be his recovery attempts were not genuine? I think so.

And I think it's smart to read what you said about him...visited prostitutes. Threw wife and child into street to move affair partner in the home. Yea, that's a real attractive man. Somebody that TODAY would make me run for the hills and I am a healthy and healed person who is starting her life over...

You are so wonderful and have been so kind and blessed many here. We want you to have healing and happiness.

And I am not feeling that maybe working this out is a good thing. Mind you, I am all about saving a marriage...but there is an old baseball saying...three strikes, you're out! He's had MORE than the requisite three strikes. How many allowances can you make for somebody who has repeatedly imho, committed crimes against his FAMILY?

As a health provider, you could have caught an STD. They are rampant.

I think this is about your H being all about himself. He is a hedonist it sounds like. And you, your faith, is about healing. And restoring balance. I don't see him ever giving you either peace or real balance after this. I am sorry.

Think about what he did to change after he did those very bad things. What did he REALLY do? Was it lip service?

You see, my xh seems to fall into a pattern. I speak of him in reflection now so I can better choose in the future btw...here's his pattern: 1)had serious college gf. Got engaged. Cheated on her and immediately moved in with an OW. 2)Married this gf (former OW) and they lived together for 4 years married. Went to church with her, had very involved church life. Cheated on her rampantly. 3)Met me while divorce from Wife 1 was in swing...I thought he was already divorced as she lived in another state...so it was his word I took. She was not there to say otherwise. 4)Marries me. We date 2 years and go to church. Have lots of friends and get successful. Grow his business together. I quit my profession. Have a child. He begins cheating after almost 6 years of marriage. Grows violent with every D day. 5)During separation (very few months after) moves in with one of his affair partners. She gets preggers when our D is not going fast enough. He marries her 3 days after our D is final in 04. She has child. 6)Within 6 mos. of marriage is cheating on present ow/wife.

He has a pattern. A cycle. It will be maybe three years of fidelity at most. Then he goes out on a hunt for something new. A cycle.

Does your H have a cycle? Is he simply living true to who he is? When I look at that cycle, I see why I had to have my life back. My son needed his mom whole.

Without very very serious help (psychiatrist maybe)he will not be able most likely to break this very serious destructive lifestyle.

It is so hard for you to be as decisive as you are in your daily practice when it is happening to you. I am sooo sorry.

I just think you need to look at another angle for clarity. Get your staff to do that as well for you since this is such a difficult time. My prayers for healing for you and children ok?

You deserve happiness and healing and love.

I just do not think he can be easily changed. I wish I could say otherwise.

And just like I tell people, I am for marriages. I want to see miracles happen here. But sometimes we have allow ourselves to be supported and open the shades to our own house so we can let in a little light of reason.

As one healer to another, I can understand how it is you would be willing to want to save your family and marriage.

I know. Tried for 3 years myself. In the end, had to save ME. He would not willingly change.

That is something we must discuss here. Why. Why did he do this? It is based on a self gratification issue. He felt he could. His past behaviors show he has lack of control in some areas. Especially alcohol and sex. I am gonna guess as your H, he sought help and you got him good help. But did he change. I am thinking no. I am thinking he could have been living day to day dealing with who he is by pushing those feelings under the surface.

Once, even after our D, in mid 04, my x told me "don't you get it? You're better off now. You don't have to deal with somebody who's done this stuff before...and could do it again. I think I will never cheat on her. Right now I am happy." And I found out that he's cheating from a patient of mine (xh's secretary's husband) and I didn't even look for the info. It was handed to me.

Could it be his recovery attempts were not genuine? I think so.

And I think it's smart to read what you said about him...visited prostitutes. Threw wife and child into street to move affair partner in the home. Yea, that's a real attractive man. Somebody that TODAY would make me run for the hills and I am a healthy and healed person who is starting her life over...

You are so wonderful and have been so kind and blessed many here. We want you to have healing and happiness.

And I am not feeling that maybe working this out is a good thing. Mind you, I am all about saving a marriage...but there is an old baseball saying...three strikes, you're out! He's had MORE than the requisite three strikes. How many allowances can you make for somebody who has repeatedly imho, committed crimes against his FAMILY?

As a health provider, you could have caught an STD. They are rampant.

I think this is about your H being all about himself. He is a hedonist it sounds like. And you, your faith, is about healing. And restoring balance. I don't see him ever giving you either peace or real balance after this. I am sorry.

Think about what he did to change after he did those very bad things. What did he REALLY do? Was it lip service?

You see, my xh seems to fall into a pattern. I speak of him in reflection now so I can better choose in the future btw...here's his pattern: 1)had serious college gf. Got engaged. Cheated on her and immediately moved in with an OW. 2)Married this gf (former OW) and they lived together for 4 years married. Went to church with her, had very involved church life. Cheated on her rampantly. 3)Met me while divorce from Wife 1 was in swing...I thought he was already divorced as she lived in another state...so it was his word I took. She was not there to say otherwise. 4)Marries me. We date 2 years and go to church. Have lots of friends and get successful. Grow his business together. I quit my profession. Have a child. He begins cheating after almost 6 years of marriage. Grows violent with every D day. 5)During separation (very few months after) moves in with one of his affair partners. She gets preggers when our D is not going fast enough. He marries her 3 days after our D is final in 04. She has child. 6)Within 6 mos. of marriage is cheating on present ow/wife.

He has a pattern. A cycle. It will be maybe three years of fidelity at most. Then he goes out on a hunt for something new. A cycle.

Does your H have a cycle? Is he simply living true to who he is? When I look at that cycle, I see why I had to have my life back. My son needed his mom whole.

Without very very serious help (psychiatrist maybe)he will not be able most likely to break this very serious destructive lifestyle.

It is so hard for you to be as decisive as you are in your daily practice when it is happening to you. I am sooo sorry.

I just think you need to look at another angle for clarity. Get your staff to do that as well for you since this is such a difficult time. My prayers for healing for you and children ok?

You deserve happiness and healing and love.

I just do not think he can be easily changed. I wish I could say otherwise.

And just like I tell people, I am for marriages. I want to see miracles happen here. But sometimes we have allow ourselves to be supported and open the shades to our own house so we can let in a little light of reason.